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Topic: OT - Weird History

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Temp430

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #3416 on: May 13, 2024, 11:20:03 AM »
I don't think the Romans did calculations like modern civil engineers.  They didn't have materials with known tension, compression, torsion, and tensile values like steel girders.  They were forced to work with local stone, mortar, bricks.  They guesstimated from great experience how to support large structures like some of the aqueducts still around. 
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #3417 on: May 13, 2024, 11:36:58 AM »
I don't think the Romans did calculations like modern civil engineers.  They didn't have materials with known tension, compression, torsion, and tensile values like steel girders.  They were forced to work with local stone, mortar, bricks.  They guesstimated from great experience how to support large structures like some of the aqueducts still around.
Yeah, and I think there was much more emphasis on experience and methods than calculation in a lot of things in those times. Over time they'd learned "if you do it THIS way, the building doesn't fall down, and if you do it THAT way, the building falls down", so they handed down over generations doing it THIS way is the right way. 

I think a lot of things back then were very method/process dependent. I think back to brewing beer, which has been done for 5,000 years and possibly as many as 10,000. How do you brew beer when you don't even know what yeast is? Well, you don't need to know what yeast is if you know "what works" and "what doesn't work". If you merely repeat a process that is known to work over and over, you can get moderately consistent results. And the process is handed down generation to generation. 

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #3418 on: May 13, 2024, 11:43:17 AM »
There are earlier pyramids which clearly were failing so they changed the design/slope.  Early engineering was trial and error, not calculus.  I've read that Hoover Dam was over engineered by a large margin because they did not know for sure.


FearlessF

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #3419 on: May 13, 2024, 11:45:31 AM »
much of today's engineering is over engineered by a large margin because

except for bridge pier protection apparently 
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #3420 on: May 13, 2024, 11:55:07 AM »
I suspect bridge piers will get a lot of funding.

On a somewhat related note, I see these fancy "lifts" at pools now on the occasion that a wheel chair bound individual wants to swim.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #3421 on: May 13, 2024, 12:00:32 PM »
I suspect bridge piers will get a lot of funding.

On a somewhat related note, I see these fancy "lifts" at pools now on the occasion that a wheel chair bound individual wants to swim.
ADA mandate.  The alternative is a zero-depth entry.  Zero depth entry is simpler and has less maintenance but it is nearly impossible to retrofit onto an existing pool.  

847badgerfan

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #3422 on: May 13, 2024, 12:03:20 PM »
There are earlier pyramids which clearly were failing so they changed the design/slope.  Early engineering was trial and error, not calculus.  I've read that Hoover Dam was over engineered by a large margin because they did not know for sure.


A factor of safety of 5 or more is what I learned on my tour of that. The construction details were mind-blowing. All of that concrete - they had to put water pipes inside the forms because concrete gets extremely hot while curing. Pretty amazing stuff there.

What the ancient contractors lacked most, in my opinion, was the ability to do good subsurface observation. There was no such thing as geotechnical engineering in those days.
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MrNubbz

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #3423 on: Today at 06:36:55 AM »
I think a lot of things back then were very method/process dependent. I think back to brewing beer, which has been done for 5,000 years and possibly as many as 10,000. How do you brew beer when you don't even know what yeast is? Well, you don't need to know what yeast is if you know "what works" and "what doesn't work". If you merely repeat a process that is known to work over and over, you can get moderately consistent results. And the process is handed down generation to generation.
This one always got me - how the hell did they know/find the process & steps,grains,yeast,hops,water. What/when had to be milled how/why to whip up the wort,sugars,starches,enzymes - avoiding bacteria,how/when it turns bad and what actually works - crazy how it all came together.

 As what Franklin said “In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is Freedom, in water there is bacteria.” But ya had to be careful
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #3424 on: Today at 08:46:08 AM »
The "wine theory", or notion, is that folks made grape juice, and probably put it in bags (animal stomachs, not Kroger bags).  The jostling and natural yeast on the grape skins will ferment the grape juice.  It can go to vinegar of course, and would in anaerobic conditions, but they probably learned over time how to minimize the vinegar.

I've read that wine in Roman times was typically 5-7% alcohol, vs 12-18% today.

Beer was probably the same kind of deal.  Some clever person would be trying this or that on a smaller scale to see what worked, much like steel making for swords etc.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #3425 on: Today at 10:15:42 AM »
 much like steel making for swords etc.
This is a fascinating history. Years ago I read the following book which touches on it among other things:
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=the+arms+of+krupp&crid=1VBOWKC7A9UW2&sprefix=the+arms%2Caps%2C119&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_1_8
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=the+arms+of+krupp&crid=1VBOWKC7A9UW2&sprefix=the+arms%2Caps%2C119&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_1_8

As late as the late 19th Century the Krupp patriarch was able to awe the crowds at World's Fairs and the like with large steel ingots. This was because consistent steel making only became possible with coal-fired hearths. 

The Romans had steel which they used for swords and steel existed even before that. The limitation was that fires 🔥 fueled by wood 🪵 aren't hot enough to produce steel consistently. Instead of a more-or-less scientific process that can be replicated, it is more art than science. 

Back then Iron workers (blacksmiths) would produce iron for plows and other uses. Occasionally they would more-or-less stumble into steel and make a sword. 

FearlessF

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #3426 on: Today at 01:03:07 PM »
THIS DAY IN HISTORY: 
Jamestown, Virginia, Founded (1607)
Jamestown was the first permanent English settlement in the New World. It was founded by the London Company on a peninsula—now an island—in the James River and named after the reigning English monarch, James I. Disease, starvation, and Native American attacks wiped out most of the colony, but the London Company continually sent more men and supplies. A successfully exported strain of tobacco was cultivated there by a colonist named John Rolfe
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

 

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