header pic

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 16 17 [18] 19 20 ... 40   Go Down
Author

Topic: Top 25

 (Read 32059 times)

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71584
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: Top 25
« Reply #238 on: November 12, 2019, 04:37:23 AM »
Pundits have to fill air time.
Logged

847badgerfan

  • Administrator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 25267
  • Liked:
Re: Top 25
« Reply #239 on: November 12, 2019, 06:33:42 AM »
Quote from: RestingB!tchFace on November 11, 2019, 08:34:40 PM
PSU was idle the week before Minnesota too.  So it was home against Michigan, at MSU (not good this year), and then idle.
I stand corrected.


And....


This thread sucks.
Logged
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

847badgerfan

  • Administrator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 25267
  • Liked:
Re: Top 25
« Reply #240 on: November 12, 2019, 07:33:59 AM »
I just went through my PM's on this site from last night, and I've got 4 messages about this shit show thread.

I do not like moderating, and I don't want to. But I guess I just did, and now I'm pissed off to start the day.

Enough with this. Please.
Logged
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 18874
  • Liked:
Re: Top 25
« Reply #241 on: November 12, 2019, 07:46:11 AM »
Quote from: RestingB!tchFace on November 12, 2019, 01:42:07 AM
Alabama failed on their home field in one of their few attempts to pick up a big win.  Their resume at the end of the year won't matchup to the rest of the 13-1 conference champs.  For the same reasons that Baylor and Minnesota were ranked low on the CFP rankings, Alabama should have to deal with the same consequences.  They simply won't have the wins to justify placement.  Maybe a nice Sugar or Orange Bowl for Alabama this year.
That's perfectly acceptable, except for the fact that the committee has never said they're picking the 4 teams with the best resumes, they've specified the 4 "best" teams.  And that means whatever they want it to mean.
Logged
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 18874
  • Liked:
Re: Top 25
« Reply #242 on: November 12, 2019, 07:47:05 AM »
Why do people complain about a thread?  We're having a conversation here.  Simply not reading it is an option, no?
Logged
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

NorthernOhioBuckeye

  • Starter
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 1101
  • Liked:
Re: Top 25
« Reply #243 on: November 12, 2019, 08:09:50 AM »
Here is what I am reading from OAM.  


  • A loss to a non SEC team is worse than a loss to an SEC team
  • Therefore, a win over an SEC team is better than a win over a NON SEC team

Knowing this, Alabama should be forgiven for losing to LSU because they beat other SEC teams that champions of other conferences did not beat. Therefore, the Western Kentucky Hilltoppers should be included in the 4 team playoff because they blew out an SEC team (Arkansas) by 25 points Saturday. :)

Logged

RestingB!tchFace

  • Guest
Re: Top 25
« Reply #244 on: November 12, 2019, 08:55:20 AM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on November 12, 2019, 07:46:11 AM
That's perfectly acceptable, except for the fact that the committee has never said they're picking the 4 teams with the best resumes, they've specified the 4 "best" teams.  And that means whatever they want it to mean.

Sure.  And Alabama is going to have wins that pale in comparison to other one loss teams.  There's your proof.  Alabama had a shot to prove that they deserved to be in and they didn't do it.  They only fared two points better than Texas.

Pretty safe to say that it's definitely not clear that Alabama is going to be the best one loss team.  In fact, it's likely that they won't be.

And....as some of us said.....using their (home) loss against LSU as reason why they should still be included is a joke.  Questioning whether another team other than OSU could keep it within five?  When Texas kept it within a touchdown.

Check yourself.  The SEC isn't entitled to special treatment.  It's too bad that last year's National Championship didn't put a cap on some of that hot air coming out of the SEC.
Logged

ELA

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 20332
  • Liked:
Re: Top 25
« Reply #245 on: November 12, 2019, 09:54:36 AM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on November 12, 2019, 12:34:51 AM
All of those things were included in the question.  Now you're just messing with me.
You said "Winning the ACC with no losses is _______ compared to going 11-1 in the SEC in 2019?"

That lacks any context.  If it's Pitt?  Absolutely.  If the 1 loss non-SEC champ is LSU or Florida.  That changes things.  If the 1 loss non-SEC champ is Alabama?  As of now, no, their 1 loss record is substantially less impressive than Clemson's undefeated record.  I would pick probably 15 teams to have no more than 1 loss at this point with Alabama's schedule, maybe more.

You didn't say "a team who won the ACC with no losses is _______ compared to a team who went 11-1 in the SEC in 2019?"  That's a different question.  Could Alabama still be better than Clemson or Minnesota or Penn State?  Absolutely.  But you didn't ask that, you asked blindly what is better, being undefeated in the ACC or having 1 loss in the SEC.  That lacks so much context it's not even answerable.  But is being undefeated with Clemson's schedule or Minnesota's schedule or Baylor's schedule right now better than having 1 loss with Alabama's?  100%.  Does it mean those teams are better than Bama?  Not necessarily
Logged

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71584
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: Top 25
« Reply #246 on: November 12, 2019, 10:26:04 AM »
Everyone can have an opinion.  It is helpful just to try and understand opinions.  

I rather expect Minny to lose this weekend and that part of this will fade, but I hope they win.

Logged

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 18874
  • Liked:
Re: Top 25
« Reply #247 on: November 12, 2019, 12:56:20 PM »
Quote from: RestingB!tchFace on November 12, 2019, 08:55:20 AM
Sure.  And Alabama is going to have wins that pale in comparison to other one loss teams.  There's your proof.  Alabama had a shot to prove that they deserved to be in and they didn't do it.  They only fared two points better than Texas.

Pretty safe to say that it's definitely not clear that Alabama is going to be the best one loss team.  In fact, it's likely that they won't be.

And....as some of us said.....using their (home) loss against LSU as reason why they should still be included is a joke.  Questioning whether another team other than OSU could keep it within five?  When Texas kept it within a touchdown.

Check yourself.  The SEC isn't entitled to special treatment.  It's too bad that last year's National Championship didn't put a cap on some of that hot air coming out of the SEC.
I'm trying to make larger points, and all you're responding with is "SEC BAD!" like Frankenstein's monster.  

I think the issue with Alabama, specifically, is that we're all aware of recruiting info.  We know they have the most 5* kids.  We know they have backups that would be starting elsewhere.  That's why they, specifically, get the benefit of the doubt.  It's less about being in the SEC and more about being so talented (on paper).

And again - it's not that their loss to and SEC team keeps them alive for the playoff, it's that their loss was by 1 score to what is likely going to be the #1 team.  That's quite logically the best loss a team can have.  Still a loss, yes, but the most quality loss possible.  Why is it so outrageous to cite that?
Logged
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 18874
  • Liked:
Re: Top 25
« Reply #248 on: November 12, 2019, 01:00:19 PM »
You guys would be going berzerk if we still had the BCS computers involved.  All the pundits would prepare you for it, but you'd still flip out when any team (an SEC team in this case, at this time of the season) would automatically gain BCS points just for playing LSU.  
But the same formula would credit a team by simply playing Ohio State as well...but it would go ignored.  




I honestly think what it comes down to is there are 2 types of people:
those who saw OU lose to KSU in the Big XII CG in 2003 and flipped out when they stayed in the top 2, and


those who understood OU's aggregate outcomes for that season as a whole warranted being in the top 2.
Logged
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 8906
  • Liked:
Re: Top 25
« Reply #249 on: November 12, 2019, 01:06:15 PM »
First I want to say that I generally agree with @OrangeAfroMan in this thread.  

Second, in response to @RestingB!tchFace , I want to point something out:  Voters and pundits aren't just picking on Minnesota.  To read some of your posts here, it seems you think that they are.  It isn't that.  It is about level of expectation and who you are being compared to.  

When you think about Minnesota compared to the expectation for this year, they look great.  

When you think about Minnesota compared to Rutgers they look great.  

When you think about Minnesota compared to Ohio State, they look pretty good I guess, but not great.  

To try to put this another way:  If Ohio State had Minnesota's exact schedule/results from so far this year, people wouldn't be talking about how great the Buckeyes are, they'd be asking what the heck is wrong with the Buckeyes.  

Minnesota's overall resume, even with the PSU win, still isn't that great.  They have a bunch of too-close wins over mediocre-to-bad opposition some pretty good wins, and one quality win by one score at home.  

That doesn't mean that Minnesota sucks.  They obviously don't suck.  It also doesn't meant that they shouldn't be in the CFP.  It does mean, however, that Minnesota's total resume isn't enough right now.  That said, they'll have the opportunity.  In their next three (or four) games they will play a ranked Iowa team on the road, a ranked Wisconsin team at home, and (possibly) a highly ranked opponent at a neutral site in the B1GCG.  

If Minnesota beats Iowa and Wisconsin and wins the B1GCG then their great start was legitimate.  If they lose to Iowa and Wisconsin then their great start was mostly just a backloaded schedule.  We'll find out.  
Logged

MikeDeTiger

  • All Star
  • ******
  • Posts: 2990
  • Liked:
Re: Top 25
« Reply #250 on: November 12, 2019, 01:26:00 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on November 12, 2019, 01:26:54 AM
I really do believe that if Alabama had lost to Texas A&M and eventually wound up winning the SEC West, they'd get more credit for it than losing a close game to LSU and not winning their division.


Odd.  That's rewarding outcomes of games Alabama has no hand in (hypothetically).


I think the rub is that in that case, presumably Alabama would've beaten LSU to win the west, and thus would have a high quality win.  I'm pretty sure I understand the points you're trying to make, but it's equally foolish to reward a team with no good wins as it is to punish a team with a good loss.

And it's not necessarily black or white either way.  Consider this hypothetical.  A&M loses to Clemson, Alabama, and LSU, but suppose they had beaten Auburn and that they go on to beat UGA.  Theoretically, it'd be possible for them to be one of the four best teams in the country.  The argument that Ohio State is what it is due to not having played Clemson, Alabama, and LSU is not falsifiable, and so gets us nowhere.  Should a 3 loss team be considered for the playoffs as one of the four best teams?  I don't think so.  We could even make this hypothetical less murky and say Ohio State sucks out loud this year and aren't even in the picture.  I still don't think you put that 3-loss A&M team in based on "good losses."  Now, if someone were to make a compelling case based on quality wins, such as Auburn and UGA, then that case gets a little more worth listening to.

Which brings up another point about "quality losses" vs. lacking quality wins.  It's a slippery slope to grade a team like Alabama based on a close loss to what we assume is a good team without any quality wins to back that up.  One game is just not a good sample size.  Other teams who played LSU close are Texas, Florida, and Auburn.  Could we say they are also probably top 4 teams based on playing close the team we think is #1 or #2?  Probably not, and we'd base that on other games.  We'd probably stay away from Texas since they haven't beaten good teams thus far and struggled with some bad ones.  Florida has beaten some other good teams, so they have a better case.  Auburn....well, they have two close losses to potentially good teams, so ymmv, but probably not top 4.  The issue for Alabama is right now they only have that one data point to suggest Top 4 material, and having one close loss top a Top 2 team doesn't prove much.  Unfortunately their schedule hasn't afforded them any better data points.  And depending on how things go for Auburn, they may not get any of those data points.  

I guess what I'm saying is in general you're gonna need multiple data points to make a good case for being a Top 4 team because one data point is fishy, as we can see how Texas, Florida, and Auburn can all make the same claim as Alabama with a close loss to LSU.  What Alabama is going to need to come up with is wins that can trump what Utah/Oregon/OU/Baylor/Minnesota/etc. would have if they keep winning.  
Logged

Riffraft

  • Starter
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 1100
  • Liked:
Re: Top 25
« Reply #251 on: November 12, 2019, 01:36:19 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on November 12, 2019, 12:56:20 PM
I'm trying to make larger points, and all you're responding with is "SEC BAD!" like Frankenstein's monster. 

I think the issue with Alabama, specifically, is that we're all aware of recruiting info.  We know they have the most 5* kids.  We know they have backups that would be starting elsewhere.  That's why they, specifically, get the benefit of the doubt.  It's less about being in the SEC and more about being so talented (on paper).

And again - it's not that their loss to and SEC team keeps them alive for the playoff, it's that their loss was by 1 score to what is likely going to be the #1 team.  That's quite logically the best loss a team can have.  Still a loss, yes, but the most quality loss possible.  Why is it so outrageous to cite that?

Probably because it was at home and it wasn't as close as the score indicated. 
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 16 17 [18] 19 20 ... 40   Go Up
« previous next »
 
Support the Site!
Purchase of every item listed here DIRECTLY supports the site.
Custom Mahogany Shadow Box

Smokeys Record Year Hoodie