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Topic: The CFP Era so far

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Cincydawg

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Re: The CFP Era so far
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2019, 05:16:31 PM »
We may see the statistics even out over time, and of course my scenario is where the #1 is actually the best team, not the #1 seed.  But early indications are that the committee is not seeding very well, we'll see how this plays out with a larger statistical base.  The difference between 6-4 and 3-5 at this level is not great.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: The CFP Era so far
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2019, 06:48:57 PM »
I can't fault the committee here.  Basically, we need to adjust our brains from how we normally think of football wins and losses to more like how baseball is.  Within the playoff population (4 great teams), the difference between the best and worst is small.  I'm not talking about how good they genuinely are, but in terms of how often the worse team will beat the best team.  That's why baseball seasons are so long - each individual outcome is so much closer to a 50/50 result that it takes many outcomes to yield a valid result (season).
.
Yet here we are, with a sample size of 3 games (2 semis, championship game) to determine these results based on outcomes that are very nearly a coin flip - anyway, much nearer a coin flip than a regular season game chosen at random.
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It makes you reconsider those mythical national champions from the past - they weren't some special great teams...they were beneficiaries of good timing and luck of the draw.  A loss in September instead of October.  An upset in a totally different conference benefiting your team or 4 top 10 teams happening to lose the same week you beat a ranked team, etc.  We don't want to hear it, but it's all VERY random.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: The CFP Era so far
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2019, 06:52:42 PM »
This is in lock-step with my larger point about ranking teams by number of losses.  It IS silly and simple and very likely wrong.  Yes, 2-loss Miami was probably the best team in 1990.  Yes, even when you take into account all of the outcomes - each and every one.  Yes, a  no-loss team may be better than a 1-loss and so on, but not all undefeateds are better than all 1-loss teams...and I think many of us agree with that, but when it comes time to rank them.....ehhh. 
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Who ever thought bravery would be suggested as a necessity to rank teams honestly and statistically correctly?
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

FearlessF

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Re: The CFP Era so far
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2019, 06:57:22 PM »

It makes you reconsider those mythical national champions from the past - they weren't some special great teams...they were beneficiaries of good timing and luck of the draw.  A loss in September instead of October.  An upset in a totally different conference benefiting your team or 4 top 10 teams happening to lose the same week you beat a ranked team, etc.  We don't want to hear it, but it's all VERY random. 
Osborne pointed this out many times, especially after winning a couple
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Cincydawg

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Re: The CFP Era so far
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2019, 07:18:35 PM »
Some of the old NCs were really the best, Nebraska comes to mind in some years.  They thrashed everyone on their slate.

But in many years, it was a wide right, or PI call, or crucial fumble ...

It's still fun.  It will be interesting if OU upsets LSU (which I think is possible obviously).  The OSU-Clemson game looks titanic to me.

FearlessF

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Re: The CFP Era so far
« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2019, 07:51:08 PM »
the only redeeming quality of the playoff

2 great games between 4 very good teams
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: The CFP Era so far
« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2019, 09:34:40 PM »
And sometimes a huge blowout.
31-0
59-20
38-0
24-7
24-6
30-3
44-16
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

bayareabadger

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Re: The CFP Era so far
« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2019, 11:52:29 PM »
And sometimes a huge blowout.
31-0
59-20
38-0
24-7
24-6
30-3
44-16
I mean, it’s sports. You take the good teams and hope. And sometimes there’s just a big ole gap. 

bayareabadger

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Re: The CFP Era so far
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2019, 12:24:59 AM »
Well, they have won three out of five so far and that is 60% so not far off from your 65% estimate.  Agreed, they wouldn't win half the time.  Lets use your 65% estimate for games against #4.  They should then win more than 50% against the 2/3 winner.  Even if we only give them 50% there, that still adds up to winning the Championship roughly 1/3 of the time (.65*.5=.325). 

In six years (after this one is done) the #1 seed should be:
  • 4-2 in semi-finals against #4 (67%)
  • 2-2 in CG's against the 2/3 winner (50%)
  • 6-4 overall with two championships. 
Instead they are 3-5 and can do no better than 5-5 with one championship. 

I am not saying, and I do not think anyone is saying that we expect #1 to just dominate the thing.  That said, they are well below what we should reasonably expect statistically. 


So looking back on the numbers you had, to correct the 1s, you’d basically need to flip a bunch of the Clemson/Bama ones.

And at a point, I don’t know what you do exactly. The 2015 Clemson team had a better season than the title team, they just won the last game. Maybe there was something to that OSU team, but it was still just short of a double-digit underdog to Alabama (so that would be in an amalgamation of computer rankings). Clemson won it all last year, but making them No. 1 basically says you should punt on schedule strength factoring in.

2017, that was bad seeding. No idea what was going on there.

Instead of results, I might look at betting lines to tell us if seeding is accurate. If I have a lot of lower seeds favored, that seems like an issue. That a lot of upsets happen, that’s sports, especially in games that are supposed to be tight.

Abba

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Re: The CFP Era so far
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2019, 10:10:03 AM »
2017 Alabama that we saw against Auburn was a 4 seed (or maybe shouldn't even be in).  But then they got 4 weeks to get healthy and the playoff Bama was a much better team.  Obviously, you can't account for something like that when you are seeding.  For example, should Clemson get a bump to the 2 seed because their TE who was suspended til now may be an impact player?  

Cincydawg

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Re: The CFP Era so far
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2019, 10:30:56 AM »
OAM had a premise last season that teams disappointed in their bowl game play poorly (which I think we all agree with to some degree or another).  Who is disappointed this season?  UGA comes to mind, I lean to thinking Baylor beats them in an ugly game like 23-17.  Penn State is probably not disappointed except in their opponent, which is another story, and Florida might be overlooking UVA plausibly, but that too is different.

UGA was disappointed last year as well after losing to Bama late in the game (again).

medinabuckeye1

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Re: The CFP Era so far
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2019, 10:45:36 AM »
OAM had a premise last season that teams disappointed in their bowl game play poorly (which I think we all agree with to some degree or another).  Who is disappointed this season?  UGA comes to mind, I lean to thinking Baylor beats them in an ugly game like 23-17.  Penn State is probably not disappointed except in their opponent, which is another story, and Florida might be overlooking UVA plausibly, but that too is different.

UGA was disappointed last year as well after losing to Bama late in the game (again).
I strongly agree with OAM's premise about teams that are disappointed in their bowl tend to under-perform.  This year there seems to be less of that than normal because LSU, tOSU, and Clemson have been basically assumed to the CFP for months so there really isn't a team that spent all of October and November thinking CFP then suddenly fell out.  

Utah kinda fits but they didn't really seem to have a chance until the very end, then lost it.  

Georgia might fit.  

I think Bama is the most obvious not so much because of this year as because they went to the CFP the last five years so nobody there has ever missed the CFP before.  That has to be disappointing no matter how you try to spin it.  

utee94

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Re: The CFP Era so far
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2019, 10:46:21 AM »
If Georgia's gonna keep on being so disappointed and then losing the Sugar Bowl, it's long past time to reset expectations.

But it's such a convenient excuse for the SEC, every time they lose to an "undeserving" B12 team.  Bowl record for B12 vs. SEC was 3-1 last year.  I'm sure all of those SEC teams were just terribly disappointed and "didn't want to be there."  Same shit we hear every year.  Lather, rinse, repeat.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: The CFP Era so far
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2019, 10:47:26 AM »
The question is whether this is just a sample size issue, or indicative of a wider problem in the polls/committee?

To be honest, with proper seeding, a 1 seed should win the whole thing more than 25% of the time, but less than 100%. The question is how close to those two extremes is "correct", and that question boils down to just how much difference there is between the strength of #1 vs #2, #3, and #4. Still, a #1 seed in my opinion should be expected to win the whole thing maybe 30% of the time at minimum, or 40% of the time at maximum. 

This year, for example, Vegas has LSU as a 14 point favorite over OU, and ESPN's FPI has LSU's win probability at 67.5%. If we make the assumption that LSU, as the higher seeded [and therefore supposedly stronger] team than OSU/Clemson would have a >50% win probability in that game, it would still require a 60% win probability in the final (over a team perceived significantly stronger than OU this year) to reach 40% win probability for the #1 seed. 

So we've had 5 instances of the CFP, and the expected number of times for a #1 seed to win is somewhere between 1.5 and 2 times. That it's been 0 in only 5 instances might be simple due to small sample size. 

Or it might not... You all know my thoughts on how to crown a champion in college football. Some might argue that if a committee made up of CFB experts, whose sole solitary job is to find the best four teams in the land (and seed them according to strength), and they can't pick the #1 team, how could pollsters be any better? Even worse, if the #4 team has a winning record and has won 2 out of 5 so far, might it be that they're actively seeding BADLY such that the consensus weakest team of the 4 is the second best performing seed, it suggests that maybe the "experts" don't know as much as we thought. 

It's for that reason that I eschew the idea that only the "best teams" deserve to be in the BCS or CFP. Because we're notoriously bad at determining who the "best teams" are. So I fall back on the hybrid system of "most deserving" teams plus a few "at large" teams that are deemed worthy but didn't meet the objective criteria. 

Go to an eight-team playoff. Either the 5 power conference champs plus 3 at-large, or the 5 power conference champs plus 1 highest ranked G5 conference champ, plus 2 at-large.

Because if even the committee can't get seeding right, how do we even know they're getting the best 4 teams right? ESPN FPI has five teams higher than OU's FPI this year. Are we really sure they're the fourth best team in the land?

 

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