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Topic: Sporty Cars (and trucks too now)
(Read 619829 times)

Cincydawg · « **Reply #4270 on:** **Today** at 10:48:52 AM »

Quote from: FearlessF on Today at 08:55:12 AM

especially impressive 520 lb-ft of torque at 4,600 rpm

the flat plane Z06 at 460 lb-ft

Torque seems to be closely related to cubic inches (naturally aspirated). I've long thought torque is more relevant than hp for most of us. EVs of course have it in spades, and turbos have a lot of useful torque usually.

The above is 6.7 L vs 5.5 L.....

utee94 · « **Reply #4271 on:** **Today** at 11:05:58 AM »

The torque from the turbocharger is the primary driver for my selection of the Ford's 3.5L turbo V6, over their 5L V8. I tested both whilst towing my RV through the steepest hills in Austin, and the non-turbo V8 couldn't come anywhere close to the turbo V6.

betarhoalphadelta · « **Reply #4272 on:** **Today** at 11:11:49 AM »

Quote from: Cincydawg on Today at 10:48:52 AM

Torque seems to be closely related to cubic inches (naturally aspirated). I've long thought torque is more relevant than hp for most of us. EVs of course have it in spades, and turbos have a lot of useful torque usually.

The above is 6.7 L vs 5.5 L.....

Well...

Horsepower = torque * RPM / 5252

So it's more about plotting the torque curve vs RPM. Torque for a gas engine tends to increase over the RPM range, but different engine displacement, types, and configurations can have dramatically different torque values at lower RPM and this can make daily drivability very different experiences between cars.

Generally the old "there's no replacement for displacement" has to do with the fact that a larger displacement engine will often have more torque at lower RPMs than a highly-tuned lower displacement engine, even if they have similar peak HP. This is where things like variable valve timing sometimes sort of suck, because it generates a lot of peak HP at RPM ranges you rarely use, and why things like turbos as you point out are great, because they tend to increase the low-RPM torque of an engine so they improve the driving characteristics (although turbo lag can be a negative).

And this is why EVs are so liked from a driving perspective... The torque curve is basically flat (max) from 0 RPM up to the point where it actually starts to diminish. So for around-town driving, you have maximum torque available at any speed.

Cincydawg · « **Reply #4273 on:** **Today** at 11:12:09 AM »

The modern turbos are really good. I drove a Skylark turbo back in 1985 or so and it was gutless, and then suddenly boost appeared. Not good.

I think that 3.5 L Ford could be an "all time" engine, akin to the GM 3800 or small block.

Our hybrid is interesting, to me, because it is a turbo and "electric" and when you mash the pedal both intercede. I still don't really understand the hookups.

Cincydawg · « **Reply #4274 on:** **Today** at 11:13:56 AM »

Yup, for "normal driving", torque is the thing you "feel" usually. I'm assuming the engine doesn't have weird peaky torque, just low end torque.

utee94 · « **Reply #4275 on:** **Today** at 11:19:25 AM »

Quote from: Cincydawg on Today at 11:12:09 AM

The modern turbos are really good. I drove a Skylark turbo back in 1985 or so and it was gutless, and then suddenly boost appeared. Not good.

Yeah my 1986 Chysler Laser had a turbocharged 2.2L I4 that had some noticeable tubo lag but was still considered pretty peppy for its time.

betarhoalphadelta · « **Reply #4276 on:** **Today** at 11:23:40 AM »

Quote from: Cincydawg on Today at 11:13:56 AM

Yup, for "normal driving", torque is the thing you "feel" usually. I'm assuming the engine doesn't have weird peaky torque, just low end torque.

Yeah, but a lot of cars these days do have weird peaky torque. It allows the manufacturers to boast high HP numbers with little decent-MPG engines without actually making the cars fast. And that's why I brought up variable valve timing--any car with VVT will have a noticeable boost when you hit a specific RPM. Even my Ford Flex was like that. It was a heavy pig of a car but boasted 275HP... Well the high torque and HP numbers were coming at RPM ranges I almost never engaged. It's why the standard Flex at 275HP takes 8 seconds to get to 60 while the EcoBoost flex at 365HP was I think 5.7 seconds (AWD also helps). The EcoBoost engine made low-end torque that the NA engine didn't.

And in some cases it can make the cars very fast but horrible to drive around town.

The original Honda S2000 was known for this. I think it was a little 2L 4-banger that in the early 2000s was making 240 hp naturally aspirated... A truly impressive HP number at the time. It had VTEC and could rev almost to 9000 RPM IIRC. The torque REALLY kicked in once the variable valve timing engaged around 6000 RPM.

Which made it fast on a racetrack where you were constantly in that powerband...

...and gutless around town.

utee94 · « **Reply #4277 on:** **Today** at 11:31:56 AM »

Quote from: betarhoalphadelta on Today at 11:23:40 AM

Yeah, but a lot of cars these days do have weird peaky torque. It allows the manufacturers to boast high HP numbers with little decent-MPG engines without actually making the cars fast. And that's why I brought up variable valve timing--any car with VVT will have a noticeable boost when you hit a specific RPM. Even my Ford Flex was like that. It was a heavy pig of a car but boasted 275HP... Well the high torque and HP numbers were coming at RPM ranges I almost never engaged. It's why the standard Flex at 275HP takes 8 seconds to get to 60 while the EcoBoost flex at 365HP was I think 5.7 seconds (AWD also helps). The EcoBoost engine made low-end torque that the NA engine didn't.

And in some cases it can make the cars very fast but horrible to drive around town.

The original Honda S2000 was known for this. I think it was a little 2L 4-banger that in the early 2000s was making 240 hp naturally aspirated... A truly impressive HP number at the time. It had VTEC and could rev almost to 9000 RPM IIRC. The torque REALLY kicked in once the variable valve timing engaged around 6000 RPM.

Which made it fast on a racetrack where you were constantly in that powerband...

...and gutless around town.

I test drove one of those back before I made the ill-fated decision to purchase the POS Toyota Solara convertible.

I can confirm that not only did the S2000 feel gutless around town, but it was also very uncomfortable to drive. The seat, steering wheel, shifter, dash position-- all of its dimensions were off and weird and uncomfortable. It was like night and day compared to the similarly sized competitor roadster, the Mazda Miata. And I'm just a normal average-sized 5'10" guy.

Cincydawg · « **Reply #4278 on:** **Today** at 11:35:23 AM »

The S2000 is a good case of decent HP and little torque.

I don't think "a lot" of modern engines have weird peaky torque. I know most turbos have a very flat torque curve because boost is managed that way. You can "flash" your computer to get more boost and power at the risk of ...

My step son suggested I have the GTI flashed, I did look into it, never did it. I see this flat torque curve on more modern turbos. The two Corvette engines are interesting for this reason, the Z06 makes more hp and less torque, both naturally aspirated.

FearlessF · « **Reply #4279 on:** **Today** at 02:45:01 PM »

I may have read this on this thread previously............

The famous saying "horsepower sells cars, torque wins races" was said by the American automotive designer and racing driver Carroll Shelby.

Cincydawg · « **Reply #4280 on:** **Today** at 02:56:26 PM »

He also said, "There can never be too much horsepower, only not enough traction."

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Topic: Sporty Cars (and trucks too now)

Cincydawg

Re: Sporty Cars (and trucks too now)

utee94

Re: Sporty Cars (and trucks too now)

betarhoalphadelta

Re: Sporty Cars (and trucks too now)

Cincydawg

Re: Sporty Cars (and trucks too now)

Cincydawg

Re: Sporty Cars (and trucks too now)

utee94

Re: Sporty Cars (and trucks too now)

betarhoalphadelta

Re: Sporty Cars (and trucks too now)

utee94

Re: Sporty Cars (and trucks too now)

Cincydawg

Re: Sporty Cars (and trucks too now)

FearlessF

Re: Sporty Cars (and trucks too now)

Cincydawg

Re: Sporty Cars (and trucks too now)