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Topic: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas

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Cincydawg

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #10346 on: November 06, 2020, 08:28:19 AM »
The only people needing to reset vaccine expectations were the ones who thought science could magically fast-forward one.

:-[
Who specifically were those people?

847badgerfan

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #10347 on: November 06, 2020, 08:29:20 AM »
I'll do it as soon as it's available to me. Front line first, of course, and then engineers.
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Cincydawg

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #10348 on: November 06, 2020, 08:30:49 AM »
Yeah, I've always been expecting spring 2021 for wholesale distribution of a vaccine. I don't need (or really want) to be near the head of the line for it, but I'll gladly roll up my sleeve when it's my turn.
That is a rational expectation based on what is known and reported.  We can only go on that (not what politicians claim of course).

Limited distribution to selected groups of course can be expected eearlier.

The auto death "analogy" was merely to note how "we" accept certain levels of risk because we judge them to be small and the benefit significant.  We all do that daily.

I can't imagine trying to live a near zero risk life.

847badgerfan

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #10349 on: November 06, 2020, 08:36:43 AM »
That is a rational expectation based on what is known and reported.  We can only go on that (not what politicians claim of course).

Limited distribution to selected groups of course can be expected eearlier.

The auto death "analogy" was merely to note how "we" accept certain levels of risk because we judge them to be small and the benefit significant.  We all do that daily.

I can't imagine trying to live a near zero risk life.
You'd need a basement.
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GopherRock

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #10350 on: November 06, 2020, 08:37:00 AM »
This is one of the reasons I'm really looking forward to autonomous vehicles: they will almost certainly be much safer because they will take human distraction and error out of the equation.

I'm sure we've talked about this on other threads.

Anyway, I'm probably not replying in any meaningful way to any of these comments. But I'm not cool with traffic fatalities.
The problem with connected and autonomous vehicles is that society has been waiting on them for 50 years.

No one is cool with traffic fatalities. That's why, at least in Minnesota, you're seeing our agency be very aggressive with passive safety improvements (many more roundabouts at problem intersections, Michigan J-turns, cable median barrier on divided highways, guardrail endcaps, breakaway sign posts, etc). Not only are these effective, they're relatively inexpensive compared with grade separations. I was only half joking when I say that traffic engineers have to try and fix stupid.

Cincydawg

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #10351 on: November 06, 2020, 08:47:24 AM »
If I as an individual feel I can dine out with minimal risk (and I have made that judgment), I don't view that as really different from deciding the risk of an auto accident is worth driving my car (and being careful and prudent).  Driving a car is pretty safe and the benefits are enormous for most.

The benefits in dining out are considerably less (at the moment our kitchen is not really in order due to the continuing tile job), but they are to me nonzero.

The benefit in going to the park are pretty large for me, and I think the risks are very low.

We took that three night trip to NC in part to get an idea how good or bad it was to be in motels.  I think the risks were low to moderate.  We have 3 million active cases, call it one percent of the population, and I'd guess at least half or more are isolated.  And there likely are 3x that many who don't know they have it.  That is the risk, I gather, if they are contagious.  I presume asymptomatic means no more than normal coughing/sneezing.

So, what are the risks in being out and about of:

1.  Coming into close contact with a contagious person?  Depending on where you live, it could be fairly high.
2.  Having them expectorate near you?  Fairly low.
3.  Doing that near you indoors with a mask on or at least covering their mouth?  Fairly low.
4.  Catching it from them?  Pretty low.


Cincydawg

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #10352 on: November 06, 2020, 08:48:38 AM »
Incidentally, I got the rather lengthy sheet of COVID protocols from baseball fantasy camp.  It's extensive, probably overkill, but that is probably needed.  I found an issue with the testing precamp and am discussing that now, and I worry about false positives, we have 80 campers, so the odds are good that happens.

847badgerfan

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #10353 on: November 06, 2020, 08:53:02 AM »
With the reno, there have been anywhere from 1 to 7 guys in my house almost every day we've been here.

Not much I could do about that, unless I didn't want a kitchen and baths.
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Cincydawg

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #10354 on: November 06, 2020, 08:57:51 AM »
Our guys are good about masks, even when they are out on the deck and we're not.

And they distance also, so I think it's OK.


847badgerfan

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #10355 on: November 06, 2020, 09:01:45 AM »
I just avoid them and let them do their thing. When they leave, the wipes come out.
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Cincydawg

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #10356 on: November 06, 2020, 09:21:20 AM »
We're down to one guy now finishing up, a few more tiles to lay, then the liner, the grout, then cleaning up.  He's Brazilian, which the wife likes.

Hopefully, their two day job they started Monday will be complete today.

I think they underbid, but they are doing a very thorough job.  You never know around here.

847badgerfan

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #10357 on: November 06, 2020, 09:23:46 AM »
Yep, we're at the finish line too. A guy here, a guy there, then a deep clean crew.

It will be a relief when it's over. I'm tired of managing it, frankly. I've already knocked half off the GC's take.
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #10358 on: November 06, 2020, 10:16:36 AM »
The problem with the driving analogy stems from a flaw in thinking about this that goes all the way back to OAM's post in response to me re: quarantine fatigue:

And on fatigue....I understand frivolous fatigue about BS that doesn't matter.  I reeeeeally don't understand fatigue about something that's killing X% of people.  I'd probably have that fatigue if I was 20 years old or something, but no, I'm not getting fatigue while my restrained actions and lifestyle are keeping me safe
While this will sound strange coming from a libertarian and hardcore individualist, if we ALL think about our own individual risk of getting COVID rather than thinking about R0, we'll each individually take actions which result in increasing R0. 

The better analogy with driving would be saying I feel perfectly safe accepting the risk to myself of driving while heavily buzzed on tequila, zonked out on some painkillers, on zero sleep and while texting, at night, with my headlights off. *I* have deemed that an acceptable risk, so why should someone tell me I can't? 

The reason is simple... Even if you will get home safely 95 times out of 100 doing that, you create an unacceptable risk to others through your actions. Your bad decision isn't only risk to yourself; it's risk to everyone else. Even granny at home, if you drive through her living room wall because you passed out behind the wheel. 

This virus spreads easily enough that the Great Barrington Declaration and the goal of "Focused Protection" is impossible. There are too many vulnerable people and it's frankly impossible for them to self-quarantine severely enough to keep them safe if the virus is just ripping through society with the healthy. But if we keep R0 down, those people can take reasonable precautions and their likelihood of coming in contact with the virus is much lower.

We're not going back on lockdown. People will not accept it. But people need to think less about their individual risk and more about whether their actions are good or bad for R0. 

That's where quarantine fatigue becomes an example of cognitive dissonance. We're thinking about our individual risk when the policies in place to reduce the spread are about collective R0. People get fatigued when they are told to deny themselves gratification to protect others, because they don't think their own risk is high. 

The message has to be, as it actually is in Sweden: "We're going to remain open but we're relying on ALL of you to be vigilant and contain the spread. You're adults, so act like it."

FearlessF

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #10359 on: November 06, 2020, 11:33:33 AM »

So, what are the risks in being out and about of:

1.  Coming into close contact with a contagious person?  Depending on where you live, it could be fairly high.
2.  Having them expectorate near you?  Fairly low.
3.  Doing that near you indoors with a mask on or at least covering their mouth?  Fairly low.
4.  Catching it from them?  Pretty low.


risks are low, but the number of cases is going up
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