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Topic: SI: College Football's Best Traditions

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MrNubbz

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Re: SI: College Football's Best Traditions
« Reply #84 on: August 21, 2019, 10:16:19 AM »
But hey, we get to argue all preseason, and then all season long, about what some yahoo thinks of our teams, so I guess it serves its purpose anyway. :)
When you get right down to it that's what it's really about.Keeping fan interst,passing the time and making some coin.It' a win-win for the pollsters
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fezzador

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Re: SI: College Football's Best Traditions
« Reply #85 on: August 21, 2019, 10:26:45 AM »
Well first, I'm not sure I can agree with even your initial point.  The coaches certainly don't spend a ton of time evaluating all 100+ D1-A teams and slotting them into their top 25.  Most of them don't even vote, they leave it to assistants, interns, etc.  And those assistants and interns don't spend much time either, they have actual real jobs to worry about.

AP voters might be slightly better, but the obvious regional biases in their rankings are well documented over the years. 

The computer rankings don't really "do homework" because they're largely straight algorithms.

I guess some of the other various publications might put more effort into their rankings, Phil Steele and the other ones out there.  But those aren't the rankings that anyone's using when they advertise "Two Top 25 teams in the B1G square off this Saturday!!!!!" so really anything that's not AP, coaches' poll, or CFP rankings, is pretty irrelevant to the way matchups are understood throughout the season.

But even if we accept that these entities DO perform such due diligence, they're still only right about half the time, so it's a fairly pointless exercise regardless of how much effort goes into it.

But hey, we get to argue all preseason, and then all season long, about what some yahoo thinks of our teams, so I guess it serves its purpose anyway. :)



I had the AP voters in mind, specifically.  They're not perfect by any means, but they are still less biased/ignorant than those who participate in the coaches poll (would the average Coaches Poll voter be able to tell you who's coaching UCF without looking it up?). 

Being an AP voter is a lot like being a meteorologist.  They know their field a lot better than the average armchair weatherman/quarterback, but they base their predictions off patterns.  They don't always anticipate factors which may change their predictions, but just because they're not always right doesn't mean that they're unqualified.

CWSooner

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Re: SI: College Football's Best Traditions
« Reply #86 on: August 21, 2019, 07:26:41 PM »
Gator said Michie Stadium was the prettiest he had ever seen.  And he'd seen a few.

Kid #2 turned down a chance to attend WP.  Was kind of being indoctrinated a bit at the time.

That sounds like a trip to be taken.
I remember the deal with #2.  I don't remember if the indoctrination was pro-WP or anti.  I think I remember anti, but memory is increasingly fallible.
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Cincydawg

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Re: SI: College Football's Best Traditions
« Reply #87 on: August 21, 2019, 07:52:55 PM »
Kid #2 was at some French beach resort in South Carolina when the call came through.  Our Congressman called me and I told him she was at PI.  Apparently, when a Congressman calls a military base, stuff happens.

She got seriously pitted for that afterwards.  I laughed.  She didn't, then.  She would kill me, and she could, if she read this story.  Her Series Gunny was not amused.

Anyway, she was excited of course, but had pending a USNA application, but her vision was not kosher, and perhaps that sealed the deal on that.  She had an NROTC scholarship already granted, so she took that to attend THE (TM)  OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THE (TM).  She turned out pretty good overall.  Making a ton of money in Texas now, near some place called Austin.  Texas Tea.  Black Gold.  I told her to move away from there.

CWSooner

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Re: SI: College Football's Best Traditions
« Reply #88 on: August 21, 2019, 08:36:49 PM »
Glad she's doing well.

She needs to move away from Austin while she's still got her kidneys.
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Cincydawg

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Re: SI: College Football's Best Traditions
« Reply #89 on: August 21, 2019, 10:24:42 PM »
Yeah, well, she lives in New Braunfels, which is a small town, a kidney safe zone.  

She wants to move here but can't find a job here that pays what she is making as she moved UP in the company a lot faster than normal.  Her boss is ex-Army and his boss is Marine and runs the company.  She's working on an MBA now.

CWSooner

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Re: SI: College Football's Best Traditions
« Reply #90 on: August 21, 2019, 11:13:41 PM »
Yeah.  New Braunfels ought to be safe enough.  From kidney thieves, anyway.
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utee94

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Re: SI: College Football's Best Traditions
« Reply #91 on: August 21, 2019, 11:18:02 PM »
Pretty much a suburb of San Antonio these days, but still a decent place.  They have Schlitterbahn!

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: SI: College Football's Best Traditions
« Reply #92 on: August 22, 2019, 12:23:20 AM »
Jerry Jeff Walker plays there a lot.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

utee94

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Re: SI: College Football's Best Traditions
« Reply #93 on: August 22, 2019, 08:54:52 AM »
Yup.  Tons of locals play Gruene Hall regularly.  I'm a big fan of Two Tons of Steel who play there on Tuesdays in the summer.  Haven't been in a couple of years but it's always fun.

In fact, CD, if she hasn't been, you should tell your daughter to check out the venue and the town.  It's technically a separate town from New Braunfels,  but it's really just a suburb at this point.

bayareabadger

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Re: SI: College Football's Best Traditions
« Reply #94 on: August 22, 2019, 09:23:17 AM »
One of our longest "traditions" is preseason polls, and discussions thereof.

Last year, 11 out of 25 ended up unranked.

So, our "experts" are right half the time, slightly better than.
Cincy, Dawg, my man. 

What does this mean? If you went to a newspaper reporter or whatever SID/gofer votes for coaches and said "Are you an expert in predicting final polls in college football." They would all answer in the negative. The point of the preseason poll is not universally to say "This is how it looks at the end."

To do such a thing super well would require modeling out a ton of games. Last year bowls, or matchups that don't even exist, dropped four teams out and added four more. If you found a person who could hit at even 65 percent on an average annual basis, that person would not be a gofer or sportswriter, but a wealthy gambler or bookmaker. 

It also speaks to the fact that polls must serve all masters. They are asked to predict, but also to reflect what has happened thus far this season. Each week they must reflect last week's results, and the season overall, and carry us toward and end. Sometimes they're asked to reflect resumes, other times how good a team is. In the end, nothing can do that competently. 

What's more, this opens two more problems. The first is that if your goal is to have a more correct final poll, you're better off with Texas and ND rather than Cincinnati or Army. Those teams were ranked last year, but on average, stacking a list with historical powers is better to boost that out of 25 number. Beyond that, even if you were the genius who had army 19th, Kentucky 12th and Cincinnati 24th, you still need the rest of the voters to agree with you in groupthink, or the wisdom of the crowd wipes it away with conventional thinking. 

In the end this is in some ways about trying to tear down and sneer at "experts" whose pretend expertise is endowed on them by us. They are for the most part unlikely to say they are great predictors, yet we pretend they do just so we can say "no you're not."

(Secretly the best way to rank week-to-week is to take advanced stat rankings and tweak for wins and losses to your liking. Far more satisfying)

bayareabadger

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Re: SI: College Football's Best Traditions
« Reply #95 on: August 22, 2019, 09:25:32 AM »
I had the AP voters in mind, specifically.  They're not perfect by any means, but they are still less biased/ignorant than those who participate in the coaches poll (would the average Coaches Poll voter be able to tell you who's coaching UCF without looking it up?). 

Being an AP voter is a lot like being a meteorologist.  They know their field a lot better than the average armchair weatherman/quarterback, but they base their predictions off patterns.  They don't always anticipate factors which may change their predictions, but just because they're not always right doesn't mean that they're unqualified.
Sort of, but with a caveat. 

An AP voter is like a meteorologist who drove all over your town chasing storms. Came back to the station to do 45 minutes on everything that happened with local storms and then must stop, spend a short amount of time absorbing all the data from national trackers and then do a national weather breakdown. That person might do OK, but whatever they do in that national thing, it won't be highly nuanced or unique. 

bayareabadger

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Re: SI: College Football's Best Traditions
« Reply #96 on: August 22, 2019, 09:27:32 AM »
Well first, I'm not sure I can agree with even your initial point.  The coaches certainly don't spend a ton of time evaluating all 100+ D1-A teams and slotting them into their top 25.  Most of them don't even vote, they leave it to assistants, interns, etc.  And those assistants and interns don't spend much time either, they have actual real jobs to worry about.

AP voters might be slightly better, but the obvious regional biases in their rankings are well documented over the years. 

The computer rankings don't really "do homework" because they're largely straight algorithms.

I guess some of the other various publications might put more effort into their rankings, Phil Steele and the other ones out there.  But those aren't the rankings that anyone's using when they advertise "Two Top 25 teams in the B1G square off this Saturday!!!!!" so really anything that's not AP, coaches' poll, or CFP rankings, is pretty irrelevant to the way matchups are understood throughout the season.

But even if we accept that these entities DO perform such due diligence, they're still only right about half the time, so it's a fairly pointless exercise regardless of how much effort goes into it.

But hey, we get to argue all preseason, and then all season long, about what some yahoo thinks of our teams, so I guess it serves its purpose anyway. :)



Bingo. The general we wants it, and someone will be there to provide.

(I enjoyed this offseason when a pretty respected writer got all sorts of salty on twitter because a computer ranking didn't like Army as much as he did. Man should know how this works, and the temptation of whining about rankings even got him)

utee94

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Re: SI: College Football's Best Traditions
« Reply #97 on: August 22, 2019, 09:49:20 AM »
Sort of, but with a caveat.

An AP voter is like a meteorologist who drove all over your town chasing storms. Came back to the station to do 45 minutes on everything that happened with local storms and then must stop, spend a short amount of time absorbing all the data from national trackers and then do a national weather breakdown. That person might do OK, but whatever they do in that national thing, it won't be highly nuanced or unique.

Well put.  Some of the AP voteres are nationallly focused, but most of them are highly regional.  It colors their perspective.  Even if they're trying hard to be unbiased, they just can't help it, because you know what you know, and you don't know what you don't know.

I no longer have the time to follow college football as I did in my teens, 20s, and even early 30s.  But at that time, I have zero doubt that I knew more about the national sport of college football than the vast majority of AP voters did.  It's just a matter of time, focuse, and dedication.  They have no choice but to use supposition and heuristics to fill in the gaps that they just don't have the time to know.

And even after ALL of that effort, they're still only getting it right about half the time.  Whether it's because they're intentionally biased, accidentally biased, or don't have the time to track injuries/coaching changes/etc. as fezzador believes, ultimately it doesn't matter.  Because the product of their efforts is severely flawed either way.  If it's inevitably so very, very wrong, then what's the point in even performing the exercise, or for us, watching and evaluating the result of the exercise?

I mean, the answer to my rhetorical question above is, of course, so that we can all argue about it.  But I prefer to argue about arguing about it, which is why I take this stance. ;)

 

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