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Topic: Playoffs! Did someone say Playoffs?

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EastAthens

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Re: Playoffs! Did someone say Playoffs?
« Reply #490 on: December 05, 2017, 04:17:50 PM »
If I was a Buckeye, I would be furious with my coaches.  How in the hell do you get off the bus at Iowa with that many big, fast, 4 and 5 star guys and get destroyed?  Poor focus and preparation, that's how, which is to say poor coaching. Like it or not that is why you are out. 

I can not imagine any Saban coached team losing by 30 to anyone, much less an unranked mid-level team.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Playoffs! Did someone say Playoffs?
« Reply #491 on: December 05, 2017, 04:53:35 PM »
It's kind of interesting then, if margin of victory (or defeat) is so valued by the committee, and way back when the computers were part of the BCS, they required MOV to be removed from their formulas.....

We're a fickle species.  
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: Playoffs! Did someone say Playoffs?
« Reply #492 on: December 05, 2017, 05:00:40 PM »
Quote from: Honestbuckeye on December 05, 2017, 01:34:10 PM
HAHA. I actually posted a link to that way earlier in this thread- but since I didn't embed it- I doubt anyone read it.
Great stuff.
I actually read it when you posted it and it really highlights something that has been bothering me.  
Last week he said that there was "very little separation" between 5-8.  RTF made the comment that based on that he thought Ohio State would be in if they beat Wisconsin.  
Really, if his statement had been true then Ohio State should have been in.  If there was "very little separation" last week and the only thing that happened since then is that #8 won a conference championship by beating the #4 team then how is it possible that that didn't make up for "very little separation"?  
It bugs me mostly because I listened.  Prior to that comment I didn't think Ohio State could get in without a win AND a TCU win.  Once he said that there was "very little separation" between #8 Ohio State and #5 Bama I thought he was basically saying that Ohio State was in with a win.  Why would you say that if not?  The committee should have been smart enough to realize that there was a nonzero chance that the CG's would play out exactly as they did and that they would end up with a binary tOSU/Bama decision to make.  They shouldn't have painted themselves into a box where their prior statement became OBVIOUSLY false.  
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: Playoffs! Did someone say Playoffs?
« Reply #493 on: December 05, 2017, 05:04:24 PM »
Quote from: PSUinNC on December 05, 2017, 04:00:31 PM
I actually for one had no issue with a 1-loss OSU team making the playoff last year despite the circumstances.  I obviously wanted Penn State in, but I understood why they weren't as well.  
I said it in another post, I'll say it again - Don't.  Lose.  Bad.  The committee two years in a row has obviously made this a point.  
And Ohio State had a really bad loss at Iowa this year, as did Penn State did to Michigan last year (albeit, a MUCH better Michigan team last year than Iowa was this year).  It wasn't the Pitt loss that did PSU in last year; it was being blown out by Michigan.  Am I the only one who remembers the massive uproar when 2001 Nebraska made the MNC title game that year after being whitewashed by Colorado?
My point is (and not directed at you Typhon, just in general) you can't take the result from last year with OSU getting in over Penn State and flip it to not getting in this year over Bama regardless of how many 'good' wins you think you have and the other doesn't.  OSU fans in general seem to be failing to grasp that, like they are enduring some massive injustice.  
FWIW:  I do not think that Ohio State getting snubbed is a "massive injustice".  I look at it a lot like you described your view of PSU getting snubbed last year.  I want my team in and it sucks but I can see why.  I've said that if I were on the committee I would see this (tOSU/Bama) as a REALLY tough call.  I think it was MUCH closer than tOSU/TCU/Baylor a few years ago because Ohio State had an obviously better SoS and that HUGE win over Wisconsin that TCU/Baylor couldn't match so that seemed pretty obvious to me.  

I do not think that you can say that the blowout loss to Michigan and not the Pitt loss did in PSU last year.  I think it was both.  You might be right, but I think a 12-1 PSU last year with a close win over Pitt and the same blowout loss to Michigan is in.  
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 05:06:19 PM by medinabuckeye1 »
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: Playoffs! Did someone say Playoffs?
« Reply #494 on: December 05, 2017, 05:07:16 PM »
Quote from: PSUinNC on December 05, 2017, 04:03:50 PM
I also think that had Ohio State lost on a last second field goal at Kinnick they would have gotten in too.  
That is an interesting hypothetical but we are not going to know until somebody has two losses with neither being blowouts.  
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: Playoffs! Did someone say Playoffs?
« Reply #495 on: December 05, 2017, 05:11:38 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on December 05, 2017, 04:53:35 PM
It's kind of interesting then, if margin of victory (or defeat) is so valued by the committee, and way back when the computers were part of the BCS, they required MOV to be removed from their formulas.....

We're a fickle species.  
I do not want MoV to be an unlimited factor.  I just don't think that beating the crap out of horrible teams by 50+ proves anything.  
I like the way the committee always talked about "game control".  My proposal was and remains to include MoV but to calculate it by:
  • Take the differential at halftime,
  • Add the differential at the end of the third quarter, 
  • Add the differential at the end of regulation
Subject to the following restrictions:
  • If the sum of the differentials is negative for the winning team, the winning team is awarded a 1 point MoV.   
  • If the game goes to OT, the winning team is awarded a 1 point MoV.  
  • The differential at each measurement is limited to 21 points such that the maximum MoV is 63 (at least a 21 point lead at half, at the end of the third quarter, and at the end of regulation).  
I do NOT think that a team should be able to completely make up for a weak opponent by drilling them and the 63 point maximum limits that.  
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Playoffs! Did someone say Playoffs?
« Reply #496 on: December 05, 2017, 05:57:32 PM »
I hated the insistence on the removal of MOV back in the BCS days.  Why?  Because with or without it, the Penn States of the world still beat the Montana Techs 72-3.  Blowout destructions happen all the time, so why would including MOV change that either way?
Not to mention, the biggie - these computer guys took years and years to perfect their formulas and then the BCS just says "take out this important chunk" - it rendered every single computer poll statistically invalid.  

Putting a limit on MOV is fine, but I don't think it matters.  A group of people (AP voters back in the day, the committee now) aren't smart enough AS A COLLECTIVE to take game control into consideration.  Whether it's 1994 and Indiana tacks on 2 meaningless TDs vs Penn State's backups or whatever, EVEN WHEN THEY KNOW THE CONTEXT, they act as if the final score is the final arbiter of truth.

Ask each individual?  Oh sure, I agree that Team X shouldn't be penalized, they were never in danger of losing, blah blah...nuance....game control....blah blah...and yet AS A COLLECTIVE, they're basically retarded.  
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 05:59:37 PM by OrangeAfroMan »
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PSUinNC

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Re: Playoffs! Did someone say Playoffs?
« Reply #497 on: December 05, 2017, 06:05:40 PM »
Quote from: medinabuckeye1 on December 05, 2017, 05:04:24 PM
FWIW:  I do not think that Ohio State getting snubbed is a "massive injustice".  I look at it a lot like you described your view of PSU getting snubbed last year.  I want my team in and it sucks but I can see why.  I've said that if I were on the committee I would see this (tOSU/Bama) as a REALLY tough call.  I think it was MUCH closer than tOSU/TCU/Baylor a few years ago because Ohio State had an obviously better SoS and that HUGE win over Wisconsin that TCU/Baylor couldn't match so that seemed pretty obvious to me.  

I do not think that you can say that the blowout loss to Michigan and not the Pitt loss did in PSU last year.  I think it was both.  You might be right, but I think a 12-1 PSU last year with a close win over Pitt and the same blowout loss to Michigan is in.  
Medina, you typically are an outlier to the OSU rhetoric (at least, the very vocal minority of OSU fans; same can be said for Nittany Lions as well, I know).  
That said, I agree with your second statement that 1) it was a tough call and 2) was way closer than the 2015 debate. 
I'll agree that a 12-1 PSU team is in last year no doubt, but I also think a 11-2 PSU team with a much closer loss to Michigan also gets in over OSU.  Just one man's opinion in that regard.  
I also think that had PSU finished off the OSU win AND wont the B1G, they too were in over Bama this year even with the loss to MSU.  That's a harder pill for me to swallow than last year even, b/c a road win at the Shoe was in grasp and Barrett played the best quarter he'll ever play in football while PSU's coaches clammed up.  What coulda been.....(and again, no guarantees they beat Wisky either, but still....).
What would have been incredible turmoil is PSU goes 11-1 with their only loss on the road late to OSU.....who would've gotten in THEN?
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FearlessF

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Re: Playoffs! Did someone say Playoffs?
« Reply #498 on: December 05, 2017, 08:34:24 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on December 05, 2017, 04:53:35 PM


We're a fickle species.  
most of us are
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: Playoffs! Did someone say Playoffs?
« Reply #499 on: December 06, 2017, 11:09:19 AM »
Quote from: PSUinNC on December 05, 2017, 06:05:40 PM
Medina, you typically are an outlier to the OSU rhetoric (at least, the very vocal minority of OSU fans; same can be said for Nittany Lions as well, I know).  
That said, I agree with your second statement that 1) it was a tough call and 2) was way closer than the 2015 debate.
I'll agree that a 12-1 PSU team is in last year no doubt, but I also think a 11-2 PSU team with a much closer loss to Michigan also gets in over OSU.  Just one man's opinion in that regard.  
I also think that had PSU finished off the OSU win AND wont the B1G, they too were in over Bama this year even with the loss to MSU.  That's a harder pill for me to swallow than last year even, b/c a road win at the Shoe was in grasp and Barrett played the best quarter he'll ever play in football while PSU's coaches clammed up.  What coulda been.....(and again, no guarantees they beat Wisky either, but still....).
What would have been incredible turmoil is PSU goes 11-1 with their only loss on the road late to OSU.....who would've gotten in THEN?
That would be a really interesting question.  I honestly believe that PSU is better this year than last.  Last year the win over tOSU was at home, at night, and in a close game as opposed to losing this year on the road in a close game.  That is pretty close.  PSU's two losses last year were, IMHO, both bad:
  • Pitt was just not a good team so losing to them was bad.  
  • The Michigan loss was a complete blowout (albeit, to a good team).  
This year PSU's losses were both close and both on the road and both to very good teams.  

If PSU had gone 11-1 this year with the loss to Ohio State and a close win over MSU, who knows.  The problem for them, as compared to Ohio State last year is that:
  • Last year Ohio State had a road blowout win over a P5 champion.  PSU had nothing close to that this year.  
  • Last year Ohio State beat B1G-W Champion Wisconsin on the road such that PSU's win in the B1GCG just caught PSU up to tOSU, it didn't give them an extra major win.  This year PSU did not play UW.  
Of course, none of that really matters because PSU this year wouldn't have been compared to tOSU last year, they would have been compared to tOSU and Bama THIS year.  

I frankly think that PSU with a close loss in Columbus and otherwise undefeated would have had a better argument than Bama or Ohio State.  
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TyphonInc

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Re: Playoffs! Did someone say Playoffs?
« Reply #500 on: December 06, 2017, 01:14:04 PM »
So this will prolly be my last comment on OSU and the Playoffs:

4 straight years OSU has been a top 6 team.
2 times the narrative has been changed to include them in the playoff and 2 times the narrative has been changed to keep them out. It's frustrating.

'14 OSU jumped 2 teams who also had convincing wins in the final week to be included. Previously winning big didn't move you down. OSU in the playoff, TCU and Baylor frustrated.
'15 OSU "looked" like the best team in the nation, and had a 3 point snafu that kept them out of the CCG. We were told CCG matter; MSU to the playoff and OSU sat out, fans for the most part accepted the committee's rational.
'16 OSU again looked really good, and again lost to the 1 team they couldn't lose to, suddenly we were told that the "body of work" trumped the CCG. OSU in the playoffs and PSU is frustrated and confused.
'17 OSU has a couple of warts, but crushes almost everyone. Alabama loses the 1 games they can't afford to lose. And now we are told CCG and "body of work" don't matter, it's to not have a bad loss. Alabama to the playoff, OSU fans questioning the whole process.

Last week we are told by the committee the line between Alabama and OSU is razor thin. OSU goes out and beats a top 4 team, wins the conference title, has their strength of schedule substantially increased over 'bama, Nationally has a top 10 offense and a top 10 defense, has 2 wins over top 10 teams, all the "advanced metrics" love the Buckeyes. While Alabama is wearing maroon suit campaigning, and their nemesis gets beat handily making everything about Bama seem a step worse. But the committee comes out and says Alabama is definitely better.

The whole process is frustrating.

I for one am happy with the team I cheer for. I want them to beat ttun - check; win the B1G - check, play in the rose bowl - kinda. We got the Rose bowl matchup, it's sitting in the middle of Tejas instead of Pasadena.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 01:20:17 PM by TyphonInc »
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: Playoffs! Did someone say Playoffs?
« Reply #501 on: December 06, 2017, 01:20:44 PM »
Quote from: PSUinNC on December 05, 2017, 06:05:40 PM
I'll agree that a 12-1 PSU team is in last year no doubt, but I also think a 11-2 PSU team with a much closer loss to Michigan also gets in over OSU.  Just one man's opinion in that regard.  
This really is the main remaining question.  The two two-loss champions that got left out both had at least one REALLY bad loss.  
You have said that you believe that it was the bad loss that kept them out.  Fearless has said that they simply count up losses.  I'm not sure.  
Last year I thought (hoped) that the committee was rewarding SoS.  Ohio State's last year was clearly better than PSU's with the OOC blowout road win over a P5 Champion along with a road win over UW, a road loss at PSU, etc.  
This year made clear that it isn't simply SoS.  Bama's SoS was not better than Ohio State's.  That leaves two possibilities:
  • They simply count up losses.  Bama-17 and tOSU-16 got in because they had less losses.  
  • That bad losses are fatal.  PSU-16 and tOSU-17 both had big losses and both got excluded.  
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Brutus Buckeye

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Re: Playoffs! Did someone say Playoffs?
« Reply #502 on: December 06, 2017, 01:32:27 PM »
Since they didn't allow anyone outside of the old Confederacy to participate, perhaps the Union should hold a playoff of its own. 
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PSUinNC

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Re: Playoffs! Did someone say Playoffs?
« Reply #503 on: December 06, 2017, 02:26:13 PM »
Quote from: Brutus Buckeye on December 06, 2017, 01:32:27 PM
Since they didn't allow anyone outside of the old Confederacy to participate, perhaps the Union should hold a playoff of its own.
If they ever go to 8 teams, you should do north bracket and south bracket then the winners just meet in DC.  
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