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Topic: Playoff Picture heading into Week 8 - Does M control their own destiny?

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Kris60

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Re: Playoff Picture heading into Week 8 - Does M control their own destiny?
« Reply #56 on: October 17, 2018, 03:26:45 PM »
The closest was maybe OSU edging out TCU and Baylor in 2014.

Had Texas and Oklahoma tied for the Big XII Title instead of TCU and Baylor, does OSU still get in?
I think they would have.  At the end of the day it wasn’t really a OSU/TCU/Baylor debate.  It was an OSU/Baylor debate.  The committee had ranked OSU ahead of Baylor for several weeks and just kept them there at the end.  Ohio St had more going for them than just helmet too.  They had a 12-1 record vs. 11-1, more ranked wins, and a stronger overall SOS.
The best test of this would have been if Baylor lost in the regular season finale against KSU that year.  That would have made TCU the outright Big 12 champion.  I think the committee really liked TCU from an eye test standpoint better than Ohio St.  They had ranked them ahead of the Bucks from the very first poll that year.  But when Baylor and TCU tied for the Big 12 title the committee recognized Baylor as the Big 12 champ because they had the H2H over TCU.  
And by doing that it really became an Ohio St/Baylor debate and the committee just kept Ohio St above them.  A TCU/Ohio St debate would have been much more interesting, IMO.  I’ve always thought if you could have had a beer with some individual members of that committee with their full confidence they would have confided they thought TCU was the best team but Ohio St was more deserving.

Brutus Buckeye

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Re: Playoff Picture heading into Week 8 - Does M control their own destiny?
« Reply #57 on: October 17, 2018, 04:01:00 PM »
The head to head changes everything though.
Again with the 2014 TCU-Baylor example Baylor won the H-H, but TCU finished ranked higher in the final playoff standings because their one loss to Baylor was a "better loss" than Baylor's one loss to WV. 
Head to head changes nothing. 
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WWH: 1952, 54, 55, 57, 58, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 67, 68, 70, 72, 74, 75
1979, 81, 82, 84, 87, 94, 98
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MrNubbz

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Re: Playoff Picture heading into Week 8 - Does M control their own destiny?
« Reply #58 on: October 17, 2018, 04:03:45 PM »
Head to head changes nothing.
Well it should
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ELA

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Re: Playoff Picture heading into Week 8 - Does M control their own destiny?
« Reply #59 on: October 17, 2018, 04:08:57 PM »

The head to head changes everything though.
Except when Baylor beat TCU head to head, and finished with the same record, TCU was still higher based on the eyeball test, or maybe the "better loss" test since their loss was to Baylor, and Baylor's loss was to WVU.
Same would apply to 2015 MSU-OSU.  Each had 1 loss, OSU passed the eyeball test over MSU (even the most homer MSU fan can admit that), and OSU's one loss to MSU was certainly better than MSU's 1 loss to Nebraska.  And OSU had helmet factor.  But MSU was still ranked higher, because they were the conference champ, and OSU wasn't.
That's why I continue to believe helmet is not a factor, and yes a 1 loss Big Ten champ Indiana I believe would get in over a 1 loss non champ Alabama.

Kris60

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Re: Playoff Picture heading into Week 8 - Does M control their own destiny?
« Reply #60 on: October 17, 2018, 04:20:24 PM »
Again with the 2014 TCU-Baylor example Baylor won the H-H, but TCU finished ranked higher in the final playoff standings because their one loss to Baylor was a "better loss" than Baylor's one loss to WV.
Head to head changes nothing.
Baylor finished 5 and TCU finished 6 in the final CFP poll

Anonymous Coward

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Re: Playoff Picture heading into Week 8 - Does M control their own destiny?
« Reply #61 on: October 17, 2018, 04:35:37 PM »
I love this message board.

Kris60

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Re: Playoff Picture heading into Week 8 - Does M control their own destiny?
« Reply #62 on: October 17, 2018, 04:38:16 PM »
The committee liked TCU better than Baylor, make no mistake about that.  But when the season was over the committee couldn’t really find a reason to keep TCU over Baylor.  They had the exact same record against almost the exact same schedule and Baylor had the head to head.

And when I say the exact same schedule it really almost was.  Besides 8 games against common opponents in conference they both played SMU OOC that season and then a tenth against each other.  That’s about as close as two teams can get in playing similar schedules.  

ELA

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Re: Playoff Picture heading into Week 8 - Does M control their own destiny?
« Reply #63 on: October 17, 2018, 04:39:53 PM »
Baylor finished 5 and TCU finished 6 in the final CFP poll
Ah, forgot they flipped them in that final poll.  Damn

Brutus Buckeye

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Re: Playoff Picture heading into Week 8 - Does M control their own destiny?
« Reply #64 on: October 17, 2018, 04:47:10 PM »
Same. 

It was still a fierce debate all the way down to the wire. It wasn't as though the H-H was viewed unanimously as the be all, end all. 
1919, 20, 21, 28, 29, 31, 34, 35, 36, 37, 42, 44
WWH: 1952, 54, 55, 57, 58, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 67, 68, 70, 72, 74, 75
1979, 81, 82, 84, 87, 94, 98
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MrNubbz

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Re: Playoff Picture heading into Week 8 - Does M control their own destiny?
« Reply #65 on: October 17, 2018, 04:49:27 PM »
Well it should be  ;D
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Cincydawg

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Re: Playoff Picture heading into Week 8 - Does M control their own destiny?
« Reply #66 on: October 17, 2018, 05:11:17 PM »
Two SEC teams could get in if the options all have two losses AND say Florida is 12-1 and Alabama is 12-1, losing a close one to Florida.

Could an 11-1 Bama get in?  Never ever would that happen in the history of .... oh, never mind.


medinabuckeye1

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Re: Playoff Picture heading into Week 8 - Does M control their own destiny?
« Reply #67 on: October 17, 2018, 05:13:46 PM »
Baylor finished 5 and TCU finished 6 in the final CFP poll
You are right and I think that it is worth noting how that all came about:
By the time the initial CFP rankings were released TCU (@Baylor on 10/11), Baylor (@WVU on 10/18), and tOSU (vs VaTech on 9/6) had all already lost.  For each week I'll list the ranking of the four eventual CFP participants (#1 Bama, #2 Oregon, #3 FSU, #4 tOSU) along with Baylor and TCU.  
Week 10:
  • 7-0 FSU was #2
  • 7-1 Oregon was #5
  • 7-1 Bama was #6
  • 5-1 TCU was #7
  • 6-1 Baylor was #13
  • 6-1 Ohio State was #16
Week 11:
  • 8-0 FSU was #2
  • 8-1 Oregon was #4 (passed Ole Miss which lost to Auburn)
  • 7-1 Bama was #5 (same)
  • 7-1 TCU was #6 (same)
  • 7-1 Baylor was #12 (passed Zona which lost to UCLA and UGA which lost to Florida, got passed by ASU which beat Utah)
  • 7-1 Ohio State was #14 (passed Zona and UGA)
Week 12:
  • 9-1 Oregon was #2 (passed FSU and Auburn which lost to aTm)
  • 9-0 FSU was #3 (passed by Oregon)
  • 8-1 TCU was #4
  • 8-1 Bama was #5 (passed Auburn, got passed by TCU)
  • 8-1 Baylor was #7 (passed Auburn, MSU, KSU, Ole Miss, and Notre Dame)
  • 8-1 Ohio State was #8 (beat #8 MSU and passed them as well as all the teams Baylor passed)
Week 13:
  • 9-1 Bama was #1 (beat #1 MissSt and passed them as well as Oregon, FSU, and TCU)
  • 9-1 Oregon was #2 (passed MissSt, got passed by Bama)
  • 10-0 FSU was #3 (same as Oregon)
  • 9-1 TCU was #5 (got passed by Bama)
  • 9-1 Ohio State was #6 (passed Baylor and ASU)
  • 8-1 Baylor was #7
Week 14:
  • 10-1 Bama was #1
  • 10-1 Oregon was #2
  • 11-0 FSU was #3
  • 9-1 TCU was #5
  • 10-1 Ohio State was #6
  • 9-1 Baylor was #7
Week 15:
  • 11-1 Bama was #1
  • 11-1 Oregon was #2
  • 10-1 TCU was #3 (passed FSU and MissSt which lost to Ole Miss)
  • 12-0 FSU was #4 (passed by TCU which beat Texas)
  • 11-1 Ohio State was #5 (passed MissSt)
  • 10-1 Baylor was #6 (passed MissSt)
Week 16:
  • 12-1 Bama was #1 - routed #16 Mizzou in the SECCG
  • 12-1 Oregon was #2 - routed #7 Zona in the PACCG
  • 13-0 FSU was #3 - barely beat #11 GaTech in the ACCCG, passed TCU
  • 12-1 Ohio State was #4 - routed #13 Wisconsin in the B1GCG, passed TCU
  • 11-1 Baylor was #5 - beat #9 KSU, passed TCU
  • 11-1 TCU was #6 - routed ISU, got passed by FSU, tOSU, and Baylor

The key was week 13 because that was when Ohio State passed Baylor.  The committee has said and their rankings have strongly suggested that they do not take assumed conference titles into account.  The key here was that when they got to week 16 they added in Baylor's presumed B12 Championship (based on Baylor's H2H win over TCU).  That was a crushing blow for TCU because it meant that, in the committee's view, TCU had to be ranked behind Baylor.  

I believe, as @Kris60 indicated above, that once the committee did that the question wasn't TCU, or tOSU, or Baylor but simply tOSU or Baylor.  That really hurt the B12 because while TCU's OOC was not good it wasn't horrible.  The Frogs did play a pretty good Minnesota team.  Baylor's OOC looked like something that Bill Snyder would have scheduled.  Baylor's three OOC opponents were a 1-11 SMU team, a 5-6 MAC team and a 6-6 FCS team.  That isn't just bad, it is an embarrassment.  

Against teams ranked in the committee's final rankings that year:
  • Baylor beat #6 TCU by a FG at home
  • Ohio State beat #8 MSU by 12 on the road
  • Baylor beat #11 KSU by 11 at home
  • Ohio State beat #18 Wisconsin by 59 at a neutral site
  • Ohio State beat #25 Minnesota by a TD on the road

The final nail in Baylor's coffin was that their loss wasn't much better than Ohio State's.  Really, the biggest knock on the Buckeyes that year was that their loss was by two TD's at home at a VaTech team that finished 6-6.  Baylor's was by two TD's on the road to a WVU team that finished 7-5.  This is the place where TCU would have had a MUCH better argument.  Their loss was by a FG on the road to a Baylor team that finished 11-1.  

If Baylor had lost another game I think there is a good chance that TCU would have gone ahead of Ohio State.  TCU's OOC wasn't as bad as Baylor's and included a win over Minnesota by a much larger margin than tOSU's subsequent win over the Gophers.  Still, with the loss to Baylor, the Frogs also only had two wins over teams ranked in the final CFP poll (#11 KSU by 21 and #25 MN by 23).   Additionally, just like Baylor, both of those wins were at home while none of Ohio State's three wins over ranked teams came at home (two road, one neutral).  

A B12CG would have substantially changed all of this.  If the current structure had been in place then, TCU and Baylor would have played each other in the B12CG.  The other CG losers only dropped 0-5 spots in the rankings:
  • #7 Arizona got smoked 51-13 by Oregon and dropped to #10.  
  • #11 GaTech lost 37-35 to FSU and dropped to #12.  
  • #13 Wisconsin got smoked 59-0 by Ohio State and dropped to #18.  
  • #16 Mizzou got smoked 42-13 by Bama and didn't drop at all.  
Given those results, it seems fair to assume that the hypothetical TCU/Baylor loser would have dropped to around 6-11.  That would have given the winner a third win over a ranked team to match Ohio State's three wins over ranked teams.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Playoff Picture heading into Week 8 - Does M control their own destiny?
« Reply #68 on: October 17, 2018, 05:19:17 PM »
It was still a fierce debate all the way down to the wire. It wasn't as though the H-H was viewed unanimously as the be all, end all.
Personally, I disagree with the committee's decision there especially because in that case the H2H win was a close (3 points) win by the home team.  Baylor had the H2H but TCU had a better SoS (their third OOC opponent after SMU and an FCS team was Minnesota where Baylor's was Buffalo) and a much better loss (by a FG to Baylor as opposed to by two TD's to WVU).  I would have ranked TCU ahead and if I did a Power Rankings vote for the B12 I would have voted TCU ahead.  I think that TCU was a better team.  Also, when comparing Ohio State to Baylor/TCU I am MUCH more comfortable saying that tOSU deserved the CFP spot more than Baylor than I am saying that they deserved it more than TCU.  

Kris60

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Re: Playoff Picture heading into Week 8 - Does M control their own destiny?
« Reply #69 on: October 17, 2018, 05:39:39 PM »
Personally, I disagree with the committee's decision there especially because in that case the H2H win was a close (3 points) win by the home team.  Baylor had the H2H but TCU had a better SoS (their third OOC opponent after SMU and an FCS team was Minnesota where Baylor's was Buffalo) and a much better loss (by a FG to Baylor as opposed to by two TD's to WVU).  I would have ranked TCU ahead and if I did a Power Rankings vote for the B12 I would have voted TCU ahead.  I think that TCU was a better team.  Also, when comparing Ohio State to Baylor/TCU I am MUCH more comfortable saying that tOSU deserved the CFP spot more than Baylor than I am saying that they deserved it more than TCU.  
If you would have have asked me who I thought was the better team I would have said TCU.  If you would have asked me who I would have ranked higher I would have said Baylor.
H2H may not be the end all, be all but you better have a pretty compelling case to overcome it and I don’t think TCU’s case was strong enough it.  I don’t think “better loss” is enough or a win over Minnesota as compared to Buffalo is either.

 

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