header pic

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


Author

Topic: OT - Weird History

 (Read 427303 times)

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 82498
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #3598 on: June 25, 2024, 09:12:57 AM »
I agree generally, though two weeks would have been helpful to the Nazis in terms of tank maintenance.  The Panzers used in the Greek invasion got worn down and needed maintenance.  But as you note, the weather earlier was pretty wet along much of the front.

And yes, taking a heavily damaged but defended major city would be a problem.  Had Guderian been able to surround Moscow, their materiel production would of course been largely reduced.  Stalin at that point may have sought negotiations.  It can be debated all day.

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 82498
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #3599 on: June 25, 2024, 09:13:12 AM »
An early model Porsche:


Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 82498
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #3600 on: June 25, 2024, 09:34:58 AM »
I used to play a computer war game involving Barbarossa, a pretty good one for the time.  The key, I found, was taking Leningrad to link up with the Finns.  The Finnish troops could then be used to suppress partisans who otherwise were a pain, or soaked up useful German troops.  Then one can turn southeast before winter hits, and then times are tough for a few months.

When Spring comes, I usually go after the oil fields, if you mask Stalingrad, you generally can get into them with some difficulty, the Russians aren't ignoring this of course, and beginning to show signs of strength.  But if you manage to secure them and get to the Caucasian Sea, it's pretty much over except for tough fighting, the Russian has by then lost too much stuff, and the Americans are barely in the game in any sense.

I tried this again a few years back, even set on slowest setting, it "runs too fast" on any modern PS.

There is another with the Pacific, also a Gary Grigsby development, that is quite good at leaning distances, locations, logistics, etc.

medinabuckeye1

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 10619
  • Liked:
Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #3601 on: June 25, 2024, 09:52:44 AM »
THIS DAY IN HISTORY:

Korean War Begins (1950)
After WWII, Korea was divided at the 38th parallel, with Soviet forces occupying the north and US forces occupying the south. Negotiations to reunify the two zones failed, and in 1950 the North invaded the South. US President Harry Truman ordered troops to assist South Korea, and the UN backed the mission. As UN troops advanced across North Korea, the People's Republic of China intervened, pushing them back to the original boundary at the 38th parallel.
Another war we should not have entered.

China benefitted the most from that conflict.
I view this one a bit differently.  We had created the mess, we needed to clean it up.  Brief history:

At the end of WWII the US and USSR divided Korea into occupation zones much like Germany.  Initially the idea was that a government would be formed to govern the whole but that fell through due to the escalating cold war.  Stalin installed a communist regime in the North and we installed a theoretically democratic (but mostly just Western-friendly) regime in the South and negotiations on unification proved pointless since both sides wanted to effectively annex the other half.  

Both the North and the South Korean regimes wanted to forcibly annex the other half but neither the US nor the USSR wanted to fight WWIII over the issue so the US and USSR both intentionally sold/gave mostly defensive armaments to their respective clients and refused to provide them with offensive weaponry so as to keep their clients from launching an invasion that would inevitably drag them in.  

Then the US, or more specifically Dean Acheson, made an unintentional and seemingly minute error that turned out to be a grave strategic misstep.  Acheson gave a speech to the Press Club in which he outlined a US "defensive perimeter" vis-a-vis communist aggression.  He omitted South Korea from his defensive perimeter.  

South Korea lacked tanks and heavy artillery because we deprived them of those in an effort to prevent South Korea from starting a war that we would get dragged into and then we omitted them from our listed "defensive perimeter" so it was basically our fault that they got invaded in the first place.  

847badgerfan

  • Administrator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 31044
  • Liked:
Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #3602 on: June 25, 2024, 10:00:59 AM »
I'm not sure why Acheson is so well-regarded in history by many.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

medinabuckeye1

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 10619
  • Liked:
Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #3603 on: June 25, 2024, 10:06:30 AM »
I used to play a computer war game involving Barbarossa, a pretty good one for the time.  The key, I found, was taking Leningrad to link up with the Finns.  The Finnish troops could then be used to suppress partisans who otherwise were a pain, or soaked up useful German troops.  Then one can turn southeast before winter hits, and then times are tough for a few months.

When Spring comes, I usually go after the oil fields, if you mask Stalingrad, you generally can get into them with some difficulty, the Russians aren't ignoring this of course, and beginning to show signs of strength.  But if you manage to secure them and get to the Caucasian Sea, it's pretty much over except for tough fighting, the Russian has by then lost too much stuff, and the Americans are barely in the game in any sense.

I tried this again a few years back, even set on slowest setting, it "runs too fast" on any modern PS.

There is another with the Pacific, also a Gary Grigsby development, that is quite good at leaning distances, locations, logistics, etc.
An interesting historic irony:
Paulus ran a pre-war simulation and told the high command that German logistical issues would prevent total victory in the USSR at basically the point where it actually happened in the actual event.  It is ironic because, of course, Paulus ended up being the senior commander of the surrounded German troops at Stalingrad.  What happened to Paulus at Stalingrad was almost exactly what he told the Nazi leadership would happen.  

WRT to Finns, they wanted to retake the territory lost during the Winter War but they were uninterested in fighting a general war against the USSR.  They fought on the side of the Germans but they weren't really "allies" as they had wildly differing goals.  In the actual event they almost certainly could have taken Leningrad IF they had chosen to, they simply chose not to.  Thus, I don't think the "linking up with the Finns" idea would have had much impact in the actual event because I don't think the Finns would have reacted the way that game predicts.  Instead, I think the Finns would have basically said "that is nice, we got what we wanted, good luck to you."  

IMHO, the one and only possibility for something resembling a German victory in the USSR would have been your second paragraph.  If they could have taken the oilfields or at least deprived the USSR of the oil, that would have changed things.  The USA could have met Soviet oil needs but there are multiple problems with that including:
  • It would have cut into US Oil supplies to a significant degree, and
  • It would have meant devoting nearly all shipping to the USSR to be devoted to Oil which would have deprived the USSR of all the other stuff we were sending them, and
  • Shipping bottlenecks may well have made the first two issues moot points.  As it was, lend-lease aid to the USSR was shipped to the North (Artic Convoys), Vladivostok, and through Persia.  The Persian route would likely have been blocked if the Germans had captured the Caucuses so that is out.  The Artic route was difficult and limited, and the Vladivostok route was inherently dangerous since Japan controlled the sea routes to it.  This forced the shipments sent there to go in Soviet (not US) flagged ships and the route was subject to Japanese restriction at any time.  


Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 82498
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #3604 on: June 25, 2024, 10:31:05 AM »
In the computer game,  the Finns are quite limited as to how far from Finland they can get, but they can be used to garrison Leningrad and suppress partisans in the general area north of Leningrad, near Murmansk.  And taking Murmansk of course has other impacts on the Russians, if the German player can do it.

As with many such games, Grigsby's versions are hard initially and in the middle, and then later one finds one has overwhelming superiority, which might not be historically accurate.  I find the main interest is in understand geographic positions better, especiall in Pacific War.  I now have a pretty good notion about Pacific geography.


FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 45432
  • Liked:
Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #3605 on: June 26, 2024, 08:03:33 AM »
THIS DAY IN HISTORY: 

Conquistador Francisco Pizarro Killed (1541)
After multiple expeditions in the New World, Pizarro set sail for Peru in 1531 with 180 men. His men soon slaughtered the unarmed emissaries of the Inca emperor, Atahuallpa, and took him hostage. After accepting a rich ransom for Atahuallpa's release, Pizarro had him garroted and spent the rest of his life consolidating Spain's hold on the Inca empire in Peru. In 1535, he founded Lima, where he was killed by fellow Spaniards he had betrayed.
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 82498
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #3606 on: June 26, 2024, 10:46:59 AM »
Imagine a man who walked away from the peak of his career not for lack of skill, but to change the game forever. Bobby Jones, a Georgia lawyer hailing from a prominent family, spent most of his career as an amateur golfer. It wasn’t until the twilight of his competitive days that he turned professional, not for glory, but to create instructional films endorsed by the PGA.
Starting in 1923, Jones embarked on a legendary run, capturing 13 major championships in just eight years. During the 1920s, the majors comprised the US Open, the US Amateur Championship, The Open Championship, and the British Amateur. His crowning achievement came in 1930 when he won all four major championships in a single calendar year, a Grand Slam— a feat matched only by Tiger Woods seven decades later.
After retiring from competitive golf, Jones didn't fade into the background. Instead, he shifted his focus to establishing one of golf's most prestigious events, The Masters. Held at the Augusta National Golf Club, which Jones co-designed, the tournament soon became one of the sport's most revered majors. The tradition of the Green Jacket, awarded to the winner, is a testament to Jones’ vision and his enduring impact on the game.
Bobby Jones didn’t just play golf; he sculpted its history, leaving a legacy that continues to inspire and define the sport.

847badgerfan

  • Administrator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 31044
  • Liked:
Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #3607 on: June 26, 2024, 12:02:46 PM »
I met his son. 

We were working on a new golf course in Orland Park, Illinois and he designed it. We were also doing the surrounding subdivision. Big project.

We laid out the first tee in his presence, and he took a swing. We measured the distance.

He then shook my hand as I was holding my surveying rod. Pretty cool.

Home - Crystal Tree Golf and Country Club 2016 (crystaltreecc.org)
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 45432
  • Liked:
Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #3608 on: June 26, 2024, 12:09:46 PM »
probably this guy........ not that guy

Robert Trent "Bobby" Jones Jr. (born July 24, 1939) is an American golf course architect. He is the son of golf course designer Robert Trent Jones and the brother of golf course designer Rees Jones.

"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

847badgerfan

  • Administrator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 31044
  • Liked:
Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #3609 on: June 26, 2024, 12:25:41 PM »
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 45432
  • Liked:
Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #3610 on: June 26, 2024, 12:29:12 PM »
not the golfer

you met the golf course architect's son

"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

847badgerfan

  • Administrator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 31044
  • Liked:
Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #3611 on: June 26, 2024, 12:34:45 PM »
That's what I said. I met Junior, who was the golf course architect. He also took the first swing.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

 

Support the Site!
Purchase of every item listed here DIRECTLY supports the site.