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Topic: OSU and reality

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MrNubbz

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Re: OSU and reality
« Reply #126 on: October 29, 2019, 03:44:00 PM »
Since Fro is a Florida fan, that automatically means that he must hate Urban Meyer. Talk about ungrateful, look in the mirror.
Hey-Hey-hey the voice of truth and reason - just ask him.Meyer platooned Leak/Tebow could have done the same with JT and or Burrow/Haskins.Man crush or party picture kept him from doing so even after 2016
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OSU and reality
« Reply #127 on: October 29, 2019, 09:10:54 PM »
You always do this. One poster says something, then you attribute it to all OSU fans or all Big Ten fans. Asinine.
Sigh.
All OSU fans don't do any one, particular thing.  But many poormouth JT Barrett.  Hell, which phrasing do you like?  Many?  Too many?  Most?  A loud minority?  Ugh.


For a guy who threw for the most TDs in B10 history (by a lot) AND ran for the 2nd-most TDs by a B10 QB, all that seemed to be talked about were what he couldn't do.  He had an ALL-TIME GREAT CAREER and many/most/too many OSU fans wish he was better.

Setting the bar kinda high, no?
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MrNubbz

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Re: OSU and reality
« Reply #128 on: October 29, 2019, 10:12:28 PM »
Throwing to guys who had incredible YAC even you propped up enough could put up numbers.Urban split QB duties with Leak/Tebow but wouldn't with a guy who was throwing 25 yd wounded ducks.JT isn't even in the top 25 for a single season ydg.His numbers were padded over 4 yrs,ya know the League ready guys are leaving after 1 or 2.Again should have been platooned,nice guy no field general.Don't take my word for it see where the phenoms name is

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/conferences/big-ten/leaders/pass-yds-player-season.html
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bayareabadger

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Re: OSU and reality
« Reply #129 on: October 29, 2019, 10:51:27 PM »
I'm not saying that Meyer was right or wrong. All I am saying that as fans that only get to see what is presented to us during games (and the spring scrimmage), it is frustrating to have watched JT arm punt throws for 3 1/2 years to wide open receivers and then see Burrow show up at LSU and put himself in Heisman contention. And it seems to all go back to Meyer's loyalty to certain players and coaches.

But I admit, it is hard to argue with the success that Meyer had. And you are correct, I was not at practice or the team meetings and have no idea what each of these players looked like outside of game days.

But I also know that Meyer is truly sold on the running aspect of the QB position almost at the expense of being a capable passer. And what is really frustrating is seeing that Burrow is capable of doing both rather effectively. He is not quite the runner that JT was, but is a much better runner than Haskins was. Conversely, Haskins probably threw a better ball than Burrow, but Burrow definitely threw the ball far better on his worst day than JT did on his best. And there are a few games (Iowa and Oklahoma come to mind) where if JT could have hit some downfield throws, the running game would have opened up quite a bit.
So I'll start with the first graph and two things.

Part of CFB is that kind of angst. You watch a guy all the time, you learn his limits. You also tend to let that command your perspective. If you'd like to tell me there were 1 3/4 years of laments about arm punting, that I'll buy. But he was second in the county in passer rating as a freshman, setting that team for an actual title, and the next year OSU fans spent a chunk of the year asking for him over Jones. Heck, Barrett had four TD passes in that 2016 win over Oklahoma and had them looking good though at least four games (I think sentiment started to turn in the latter half of that season).

It's also worth noting, Burrow didn't "show up at LSU and put himself in Heisman contention." He showed up at LSU and was the 12th rated passer in the SEC. As a fourth-year junior. This points to another interesting happening. We see our teams all the time. Our nits bother us. What happens to other players, former players, we only really see the highs and lows. In this case, more this year than last year.

I empathize with your last graph. I really do. Because we spend a lot of time with someone and their flaws become all we see. If Barrett had not gone 23-4 with a playoff appearance and Big Ten title, he'd actually be remembered more fondly. But it points to another factor. If Burrow had been given three-plus years or runway, there's a very real chance OSU fans end up annoyed by one flaw he has or another. Perhaps he's a stud three years running who gets better and better. More likely there are ups and downs, and he ends up looking less shiny compared to 2015 Barrett. Perspective is weird that way. 

bayareabadger

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Re: OSU and reality
« Reply #130 on: October 29, 2019, 11:04:07 PM »
As to the Schiano thing, I was using this as an example of Meyer's loyalty. Last season when the defense was giving up chunk plays to EVERY TEAM THEY PLAYED (even Oregon St), there should have been a "Come to Jesus" moment between Meyer and Schiano. (The first thing I would have done is told him that he cannot play exclusive man to man coverage as half the defense was playing with their backs to the ball).

Did that happen? I don't know, but I do know that things never got better. I truly believe that Meyer gave Schiano too much freedom to leave it alone and hope it got better. I also believe that had Meyer come back this year, Schiano would have been welcomed back with open arms.

As for the Entitlement aspect, maybe OSU fans do feel that way. But when you break down last season for what it was, it becomes quite apparent that the coaching staff let this team down. Sure they went 13-1 last year, but that defensive performance kept them out of the playoffs. And Almost all of the same players are back this year. A defense that was ranking outside the Top 50 in the country, is now arguably one of the best in the country. THAT is on the coaches last year.

And sure we expect our team to go undefeated every year. When they recruit the way they have, why shouldn't we? But there is a difference between matching up to a team with close to equal talent and just having a bad game and getting blown off the field by a clearly inferior team. And when the reason for that had been apparent all season long and the HC does nothing about it, you bet it frustrates the fans.
The top boldd is the center assumption. That there is a way, with Urbs calling over his coach and yelling at him or having a big meeting that thing would be magically fixed. And I just don't know if that's how the world works. I just think it's a little idealistic to say mid-season, we change everything and it suddenly gets better. The part about him coming back is likewise conjecture. Urbs fired his first DC after two years IIRC. 

You point out all the same players are back. Is it not logical that another year of growing, another year of weights, another year of college football helped many players improve? 

To the second bolded I say this. You shouldn't expect it because it's not something that often happens. It's just very hard to do. And in the end, chances are, your team will fail at something. It will fail to make the playoff at 13-1, or make the playoff and get knocked out. One team leaves happy, maybe another is happy to be there (not the case for OSU I'd assume).

(The coach doing nothing about it, how much of that is something that's out there and how much is again projection. I.e. Things are going wrong and they're not being fixed, thus someone must not be doing something)

bayareabadger

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Re: OSU and reality
« Reply #131 on: October 29, 2019, 11:24:25 PM »
You invoked that you thought JT was a record setter,I'm pointing out the NFL talent that surrounded him his 4 seasons of play.It's easy to be a saint when some one else is setting the stage for your miracles.We had a known quality in a decent running QB who couldn't go over the top.Yet there were 2 guys who could stretch the field behind him.Saban took the chance Urbz didn't - pretty simple stuff.These were being discussed on the Buckeye Boards ad nauseam during the 2016 season
Exhibit A: Entitlement. 

When someone explains that being very successful is easy and that a very good college player is actually just decent, that's majestic entitlement. It's a natural part of college fandom, but shoot, I thought us youngin's were the one that didn't respect hard work, not the old heads.

(Also, on that Saban thing. He had this year's top rated passer in the country who may well have saved his team's playoff spot nailed to the bench as an injured Tua tossed two first-half picks)

bayareabadger

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Re: OSU and reality
« Reply #132 on: October 29, 2019, 11:31:26 PM »
Since Fro is a Florida fan, that automatically means that he must hate Urban Meyer. Talk about ungrateful, look in the mirror.
I think this a a joke that's going over my head. I wen't halfway to responding to it and don't want to get sucked in. 

bayareabadger

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Re: OSU and reality
« Reply #133 on: October 29, 2019, 11:34:30 PM »
Throwing to guys who had incredible YAC even you propped up enough could put up numbers.Urban split QB duties with Leak/Tebow but wouldn't with a guy who was throwing 25 yd wounded ducks.JT isn't even in the top 25 for a single season ydg.His numbers were padded over 4 yrs,ya know the League ready guys are leaving after 1 or 2.Again should have been platooned,nice guy no field general.Don't take my word for it see where the phenoms name is

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/conferences/big-ten/leaders/pass-yds-player-season.html
That list has caused me to lose faith in passing yardage as a useful number.

Edit: Upon further review, every Big Ten passing number is kind of a mess. Fields is gonna leave with either the best individual season ever, or be right there with Haskins, Wilson and Brees. 

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OSU and reality
« Reply #134 on: October 30, 2019, 03:05:13 AM »
And you counter with passing yardage?  :57:


Miraculous that such a limited QB could be the ALL TIME B10 leader in TD passes and passer rating (and only 15th in attempts) AND being a top-3 ALL TIME rushing QB in B10 history....same guy, one career.


But he was limited.  He wasn't that good.  Only played because of loyalty.  I guess he was just lucky...on 1,867 plays.




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NorthernOhioBuckeye

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Re: OSU and reality
« Reply #135 on: October 30, 2019, 07:42:51 AM »
So I'll start with the first graph and two things.

Part of CFB is that kind of angst. You watch a guy all the time, you learn his limits. You also tend to let that command your perspective. If you'd like to tell me there were 1 3/4 years of laments about arm punting, that I'll buy. But he was second in the county in passer rating as a freshman, setting that team for an actual title, and the next year OSU fans spent a chunk of the year asking for him over Jones. Heck, Barrett had four TD passes in that 2016 win over Oklahoma and had them looking good though at least four games (I think sentiment started to turn in the latter half of that season).

It's also worth noting, Burrow didn't "show up at LSU and put himself in Heisman contention." He showed up at LSU and was the 12th rated passer in the SEC. As a fourth-year junior. This points to another interesting happening. We see our teams all the time. Our nits bother us. What happens to other players, former players, we only really see the highs and lows. In this case, more this year than last year.

I empathize with your last graph. I really do. Because we spend a lot of time with someone and their flaws become all we see. If Barrett had not gone 23-4 with a playoff appearance and Big Ten title, he'd actually be remembered more fondly. But it points to another factor. If Burrow had been given three-plus years or runway, there's a very real chance OSU fans end up annoyed by one flaw he has or another. Perhaps he's a stud three years running who gets better and better. More likely there are ups and downs, and he ends up looking less shiny compared to 2015 Barrett. Perspective is weird that way.

I must not be conveying my thoughts very well. Yes Barrett had an amazing career at tOSU. He put up incredible numbers and won a lot of games I will not argue that and in fact am very appreciative for it.

My point is that while he was very good, he was also somewhat limited in how far he could really take the offense. I would even speculate that had he NOT gotten injured in the last reg season game in 2014, tOSU may not have steamrolled Wisconsin and gotten into the playoffs. And had they managed to get in, the would have been steamrolled by Bama. Not because JT was not a good player but because he could not pop the top off the defense the way the Jones did.  Bama would have just loaded the box and dared JT to throw it downfield. He may have completed a couple here or there, but most likely would have thrown a few picks.

Also, look as Zeke's rushing numbers for a 3 game stretch, 220, 230 and 246 yds. Those are the 3 highest yardage games of his college career. Not 3 of the highest, the 3 highest. And what was different about those games other than they were arguably the 3 of toughest opponents in a 3 game stretch that he would see in college? A QB that could pop the top off the defense and an offensive coordinator that tailored the offense to his abilities. While Jones was capable of running the ball, that was not his strong suit. Meyer was FORCED to allow the OC to change his offense.

However, the following season, they went right back to the Meyer offense predicated on a running QB sharing caries with the tailback. Yeah they won those games, but they didn't look impressive doing so. Jones struggled and JT was brought back in because of his ability to move the ball in that offense.

With all of that said, the issue was that Barrett played to the best of his ability and had some great wins and awesome moments. I am very grateful that he was the QB and happy with the results. But his throwing ability along with UM's insistence that HIS system was the only way to go, possibly cost them even greater success. And even with that, he had another QB later that could both run and throw the ball downfield but never gave him an honest opportunity to demonstrate it. Had he given Burrows that opportunity, they may have achieved even more. But who knows.

When it's all said and done, I am very happy with where they are now. I am glad that Fields is there and will be for next season. I am happy with the way the current offense and defense are playing. I am also happy that Ryan Day is now the coach and is doing well. I wish Urban well and hope he enjoys his new job. Things really could not be much better.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OSU and reality
« Reply #136 on: October 30, 2019, 08:17:51 AM »
It's odd that a HC great enough to turn a glorified FB into an all-time great QB at Florida and took such a limited passing talent like Barrett to put up the numbers he did was so inept at picking a QB.  UM's offense was predicated on having a running threat at QB...so that's why he played Barrett.  Simple.  I don't understand finding fault in that.  
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Cincydawg

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Re: OSU and reality
« Reply #137 on: October 30, 2019, 08:25:23 AM »
Well, CUM did not win every game obviously, so there is the fault.

MrNubbz

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Re: OSU and reality
« Reply #138 on: October 30, 2019, 11:48:03 AM »
Exhibit A: Entitlement.

When someone explains that being very successful is easy and that a very good college player is actually just decent, that's majestic entitlement. It's a natural part of college fandom, but shoot, I thought us youngin's were the one that didn't respect hard work, not the old heads.

(Also, on that Saban thing. He had this year's top rated passer in the country who may well have saved his team's playoff spot nailed to the bench as an injured Tua tossed two first-half picks)
What Saban did this year is irrelevant to this discussion.This has nothing to do with entitlement.Did you actually read any of the previous explanations or were you too tired reaching for another beer?Again these arguments were raging 3 years ago on Buckeye Boards.I can tell you weren't really dialed into the situation.Why did Saban pull Jalen Hurts - and insert a true freshman in Tua under very smiliar circumstances a year later?The Coach had to at least try to adapt/adjust to the dilemma of being behind with a running QB - which he did.

  There is never,ever a  guarantee to get back there.Urbs stood pat the following season after he promised sweeping changes to the media/fans in the wake of the epic beatdown(he literally lied).Those writers/fans that thought it prudent Burrow/Haskins should at least see some snaps were right in retrospect.Because of obvious lapses in throwing the ball that Burrow/Haskins could have provided.And later obviously demonstrated which both you and Urbz can't see or won't acknowledge.But Urbz was paid to give the program a punchers chance - not stand pat on a pet project.

Urbz and Bill Clinton could both look right into a camera and tell  whoppers.His recruiting and understanding of quick strike offenses are 1st rate.His statements to the media and personnel decisions regarding coaches and players were many times suspect.


« Last Edit: October 30, 2019, 04:15:15 PM by MrNubbz »
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MrNubbz

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Re: OSU and reality
« Reply #139 on: October 30, 2019, 12:16:22 PM »
It's odd that a HC great enough to turn a glorified FB into an all-time great QB at Florida and took such a limited passing talent like Barrett to put up the numbers he did was so inept at picking a QB.  UM's offense was predicated on having a running threat at QB...so that's why he played Barrett.  Simple.  I don't understand finding fault in that. 
It's finding fault with not going with other options when plan 'A" isn't working.At Florida you saw this with Leak/Tebow maybe he got complacent in C-Bus.When Saban arrived in T-Town he had the remedy for Urban's offense - a in your face Belichick/Bears like defense.And a grind it out NFL style offense,Oh and he could recruit also.IMO Bama beating Meyers Gators in'09 & '10 hastened UFM's departure.Urbans meteoric rise at BG/Utah/Fla didn't prepare him for adversity or St Nicks staunch defenses
« Last Edit: October 30, 2019, 02:07:39 PM by MrNubbz »
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