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Topic: Mt Rushmore - Head Coaches

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Gigem

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Re: Mt Rushmore - Head Coaches
« Reply #98 on: May 10, 2026, 08:01:11 PM »
Just as you can respect a program more for winning NCs under several different HCs, I think the reverse should be true of HCs winning at several different programs.
You could look solely at NCs, if you want...I guess.
But then HCs like Bill Snyder and yes, Bo Schembechler are invisible to you.  Odd.

Spurrier won at 3 different programs, none of which had any history of winning.
He led Duke to their first ACC championship since 1962 (27 years). 
He led Florida to our first ever official SEC championship.  Then won 5 more.  And finished 1st in the SEC his first year, but we weren't eligible.
He is South Carolina's all-time winningest HC, and it's not close.
He is Florida's all-time winningest HC, and it's even a wider gap. 
Despite Meyer's three 13-1 seasons and despite coaching twice as many seasons at Florida as Meyer, Spurrier's win% is higher.  That's nuts.
Part of that is while he was the HC (OBC) at Florida for 12 seasons, he lost 12 SEC games.  Total.  He dragged the SEC into the 21st century, no longer considering 3 runs and a punt as success.

Here's a list of most season wins for South Carolina, all-time:
12, 12, 12, 10, 9, 9, 8, 8, 8, 8,...
Spurrier is all three 12s and a 9.....4 of the top 5, ever.

Yes, he was sub-.500 vs FSU, but Florida at that time had a unique and unprecedented end to its seasons.  Top-5 rival, then conf championship game, then as a top-10 team itself, a bowl vs a legit top-10 opponent.  No one else had that.  Tennessee ended the year with Vandy.  Georgia ended it with GT.  UM-OSU played each other in the finale, but no CCG.  Nebraska didn't have a CCG until they did, and their run ended around that time, coinciding with Dr. Tom's exit.

Anyway, any great HC can be talked up by a fan of his program. 
I value consistency.  Osborne's million straight years with 9+ wins is insane.  Bowden's 14 straight top 5s is nuts.  Bo only losing 24 Big Ten games in 21 seasons is nonsense.
And as we all know, pre-playoff, winning the NC was as much luck as anything else.  When you lost.  When someone else lost.  Hell, going undefeated and not getting even a piece ('94 PSU, '04 Aub).  So I don't like the idea of Spurrier is amazing and Bo was not, just because Texas upset Nebraska and we got a rematch with FSU. 

When a HC is an all-time great AND fun, it's just a special time.  Visor-throwing, poking shots at opponents, trying to hang 50 on everyone and often doing it...that's why Gators love Spurrier most.  Meyer won 2 NCs, but Spurrier won our first and we all had fun as it happened. 

Spurrier could absolutely be on someone's College HC Mt Rushmore....but so could 20 other guys.
I'm not certain if you're directing that comment I bolded up above at me or not.  But I very much respect Bill Snyder, by all accounts he did very, very well at KSU.  And I do think it's unfair to not include him just because he never won a MNC, but on that list of great coaches the only other one who never won a MNC was Bo Schembechler.  And it's always a knock on him as well. 

I honestly don't really know much about Bo, he was done coaching long before I took an interest, and I still don't pay that much attention to the B1G or many of the coaches in general.  Michigan always gets an outsized amount of coverage, and so does Ohio State, but I don't really know much about their programs from before the late 90's.  

So if you wanted my Top Ten, I'd probably include Bill Snyder, as well as Stoops, Bowden, Spurrier, Saban, Miles, Mack Brown.  Not sure who the other few coaches would be, I haven't given it a lot of thought. Notice how my list only includes coach from the last ~30 years?  It's because that's as far as my CFB fandom goes.  Anything before that is ancient history.  



OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Mt Rushmore - Head Coaches
« Reply #99 on: May 10, 2026, 11:51:55 PM »
Not directed at anyone, just making the point that all situations are very different and ranking HCs by number of NCs is about as nuanced as ranking NFL QBs simply by number of SBs.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

GopherRock

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Re: Mt Rushmore - Head Coaches
« Reply #100 on: May 11, 2026, 08:31:33 AM »
Bill Snyder taking Kansas State, one of the ends-blown-out tomato cans that Nebraska and OU feasted on in the historical Big 8, to the fringe of a MNC, and then keeping them there for a while, is worth being in the discussion of Rushmore.

FearlessF

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Re: Mt Rushmore - Head Coaches
« Reply #101 on: May 11, 2026, 08:39:09 AM »
agreed
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

MikeDeTiger

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Re: Mt Rushmore - Head Coaches
« Reply #102 on: May 11, 2026, 09:35:14 AM »
That LSU team is such an interesting case study.

They were super accomplished, beating a ton of very good teams (even if the 8 ranked teams thing is a bit hollow). Their defense was murder. Their offense was … quite good, not unreal. Held under 4 yards per carry almost half the time, under 5.7 yards per play more than half the time.

And that would’ve been fine, if not for facing maybe the most talented defense of all time. I rather hoped LSU could’ve locked down that amazing accomplishment of a season. But they didn’t.

It’s too bad, but the sport doesn’t always deliver the best story (and of course that game and mulligan choice was the first playoff breaking point)

That LSU offense was "efficient,".....good at what they did (running the ball), but extraordinarily limited.  I don't know what 'fro is on about....those QBs were both awful, in quantifiable numbers and in QB skillset.  You can't watch either of them that year and honestly say "that's a game manager."  No, with a "game manager" they'd have won the NC.  He's right that they didn't need to throw the ball much, but that doesn't change the fact that they were crap at reading coverages and pulling the trigger when they did need to.  

I'll go to my grave haunted by the memory of TEs streaking uncovered down the sideline and wide open crossing routes, and a QB who was so bad he instead shovel-passed the ball directly to a guy wearing the other color.  

MikeDeTiger

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Re: Mt Rushmore - Head Coaches
« Reply #103 on: May 11, 2026, 09:56:51 AM »
The 2011 Alabama defense had, based on era/context, the best pass defense ever.  So yeah, a 'perfectly fine' pass offense is going to look like hot garbage against them, lol.

Eh....I'll take LSU's 2011 crew, call it homer if you want.  They played the scheme they were given, which would be like trying to compare Richard Sherman to Patrick Peterson (pro, not college).  Asked to do very different things, often with different results, but they were both brutally good at what they did.  I'm not downplaying Alabama's pass defense that year.  But I don't think they had the combined talent that LSU had, and they also achieved better metrics like efficiency rating against a much lesser schedule than LSU played. 

bayareabadger

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Re: Mt Rushmore - Head Coaches
« Reply #104 on: May 11, 2026, 10:38:43 AM »
Bill Snyder taking Kansas State, one of the ends-blown-out tomato cans that Nebraska and OU feasted on in the historical Big 8, to the fringe of a MNC, and then keeping them there for a while, is worth being in the discussion of Rushmore.
This is always an odd one. 

We’re talking about a guy who took a 10th percentile power team to consistent 80th percentile, and sometimes 90th+. Thats awesome. 

For better or worse, guys who can take a team from 80th or 90th to 100th get the top-end hype. And it’s just kind of different skillsets. Like, it’s all coaching, but what Snyder did was so underdog, it doesn’t really apply to what Saban did (and as we saw, the load up on talent at a mid-tier program thing was far from dominant for Nick).

bayareabadger

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Re: Mt Rushmore - Head Coaches
« Reply #105 on: May 11, 2026, 10:51:52 AM »
That LSU offense was "efficient,".....good at what they did (running the ball), but extraordinarily limited.  I don't know what 'fro is on about....those QBs were both awful, in quantifiable numbers and in QB skillset.  You can't watch either of them that year and honestly say "that's a game manager."  No, with a "game manager" they'd have won the NC.  He's right that they didn't need to throw the ball much, but that doesn't change the fact that they were crap at reading coverages and pulling the trigger when they did need to. 

I'll go to my grave haunted by the memory of TEs streaking uncovered down the sideline and wide open crossing routes, and a QB who was so bad he instead shovel-passed the ball directly to a guy wearing the other color. 
Lee seemed like a game manger? Not an amazing one, but one. Jefferson less so.

I don’t know that I’d call them efficient (though the usual number I used for that doesn’t go back that far, so maybe). They were a kind of pretty effective with a limited profile, but that was going to his an issue against a really top defense if their defense also wasn’t lockdown. And that day it wasn’t.

MikeDeTiger

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Re: Mt Rushmore - Head Coaches
« Reply #106 on: May 11, 2026, 12:18:46 PM »
Lee seemed like a game manger? Not an amazing one, but one. Jefferson less so.

I don’t know that I’d call them efficient (though the usual number I used for that doesn’t go back that far, so maybe). They were a kind of pretty effective with a limited profile, but that was going to his an issue against a really top defense if their defense also wasn’t lockdown. And that day it wasn’t.

He was a game manager when afforded a giant cushion and there was no pressure whatsoever in the pocket.  His OL often afforded him that.  When they couldn't, he didn't just sink to the levels any decent QB sinks to when they have no protection.  That equates to merely failing to help your team.  Lee became an active liability.  His yips were amongst the worst I've ever seen, throughout his entire career.  He got benched in the first Alabama game because of it. 

So, you could think of him more as a boom or bust, but in his case, it was more like OK or bust.  Against a team like Alabama, he became appreciably worse than most other QBs would've been.  A regular QB would fail to produce.  Lee cost the team.  

Jefferson wasn't any different, other than that his usable skillset when everything was to his advantage was different.  He was actually pretty good at running the read-option.  Which is where he did his damage against Alabama in the first game, off the bench (what little damage he actually managed to do).  Take away the read-option, which Alabama did in the rematch, and he had nothing....not "perfectly fine," not a "game manager," not "okay"......he was trash, with yips nearly as bad as Lee.  If there was a moment that was uniquely indicative of their play, something that encapsulated their problems, nothing was more singular than his literal shovel pass to a defensive lineman in the NC.  That was nothing more than an ongoing major case of the yips, but it wasn't unique to that game.  It was always there, LSU's OL just made sure most teams couldn't make it a factor.  He was so scared of getting hit, not knowing what to do, inability to think in the moment under duress....all the above....that he just gave the ball away to someone, anyone.....even if his brain only later realized the guy was wearing the other uniform.  

Danny Etling was the QB people want to think Lee/Jefferson were.  Etling certainly wasn't great, but he fits the profile of a game manager, "fine" or however you want to describe it, and he probably would've seen the receivers galloping to potential greatness and been able to hit at least 1 or 2 of those.  

That said, LSU had other head-scratchers in that game.  But I maintain most, if not all, of that would've been mitigated by a QB who didn't piss his pants when a team actually had a shot of hitting him.  I know it felt in real time like Alabama absolutely smothered everything about LSU, but I've forced myself to rewatch that game a few times, with the coaches film that used to be available on YT.  The truth is that LSU called a number of plays that looked good and had a shot, but Jefferson played one of the worst games I've ever seen.  

I hate what that game did to the perception of the two teams, but it is what it is.  I'll always believe the first game was more indicative of the two.  Not inasmuch as LSU won it, but in that it was close.  Most people retroactively think Bama was far superior all along and the NC proved it.  I think there's a lot of evidence to suggest that the normal outcome between the two teams would've been close, whoever won it, and the NC was a poor outlier for LSU.  But as I said, they had several head-scratchers in that game, and the perception isn't likely to change at this point.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Mt Rushmore - Head Coaches
« Reply #107 on: May 11, 2026, 02:28:42 PM »
Bill Snyder taking Kansas State, one of the ends-blown-out tomato cans that Nebraska and OU feasted on in the historical Big 8, to the fringe of a MNC, and then keeping them there for a while, is worth being in the discussion of Rushmore.
agreed
I agree as well and your point about KSU's dreadful record without Bill Snyder is the key issue for me. 

Bo's lack of an NC at Michigan is different because Michigan won NCs both before and after Bo's tenure so I see it as a very legitimate criticism of him because although his accomplishments within the league are amazing he never took Michigan to the heights that multiple other coaches did. Snyder's case is very different because he took KSU far higher than they ever got before or since.

847badgerfan

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Re: Mt Rushmore - Head Coaches
« Reply #108 on: May 11, 2026, 02:31:34 PM »
Bo:

Win 9-10 (in the Big 2 Little 8)
Lose 1-2
Lose Bowl
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

FearlessF

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Re: Mt Rushmore - Head Coaches
« Reply #109 on: May 11, 2026, 02:41:03 PM »
that was Doc Osborne until he broke through in the mid-90s
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Mt Rushmore - Head Coaches
« Reply #110 on: May 11, 2026, 04:52:38 PM »
Bo:

Win 9-10 (in the Big 2 Little 8)
Lose 1-2
Lose Bowl
that was Doc Osborne until he broke through in the mid-90s
But Doc Tom DID break through.  If not for that run in the mid-90s he'd still be a great coach but Mt Rushmore, I think not.  

FearlessF

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Re: Mt Rushmore - Head Coaches
« Reply #111 on: May 11, 2026, 04:54:12 PM »
the truth
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

 

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