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Topic: Is Urby In Trouble Here?
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Anonymous Coward · « **Reply #714 on:** August 22, 2018, 02:11:18 PM »

Quote from: Honestbuckeye on August 22, 2018, 01:35:08 PM

Fact: Courtney claims she was abused

No one doubts.

Quote from: Honestbuckeye on August 22, 2018, 01:35:08 PM

fact: her own mother says she was not, and she made it clear she would bring Urban down

You conveniently ignore that she earlier DOCUMENTED in text messages that he did abuse Courtney and was happy to reveal those to a journalist *after* she made contrary claims to Snook (the least credible journalist involved).

Quote from: Honestbuckeye on August 22, 2018, 01:35:08 PM

Fact: Zach mom gives eyewitness accounts of Courtney getting drunk and starting physical altercations, and even trying to run him over

Let's have me accept that as true. Even then, it's in zero way germane to Urban and whether Zach deserved his job. As mentioned, Courtney could in theory be the most batshit crazy lady in Ohio and also be a victim of serial abuse and Zach, for that alone, will have not deserved his job. Whether she's crazy and even did illegal things of her own, therefore, is not an important data point.
It's a pure distraction tactic.

Quote from: Honestbuckeye on August 22, 2018, 01:35:08 PM

Fact: police never found a reason to arrest him, until the trespassing.

Excluding 2009 and his DUI, that's true. But it's again irrelevant. After 2009, Urban's responsibilities had a lower burden of proof. He had to care about all rumors. He also had responsibility to build an environment in which, especially when "everybody knew" (Ramzy), to not hide a serial abuser and permit such a subordinate to thrive.

Quote from: Honestbuckeye on August 22, 2018, 01:35:08 PM

It is only you in this debate who has the arrogance to say what you just said. You heard the side of the story that is most appealing for the world you desire.

Come on, irony.

Quote from: Honestbuckeye on August 22, 2018, 01:35:08 PM

Just because a person claims to be a victim does not mean they are, or that they are being honest.
But you choose to take it as gospel, and completely rationalize away any other versions of what happened.

Again, you conveniently continue to sidestep what the owner/creator and lead author of the most popular buckeye website has said:

"Literally everybody knew. I knew. I wrote around it for six years."

Quote from: Honestbuckeye on August 22, 2018, 01:35:08 PM

I doubt anyone here is buying your fake outrage at me, nor does any person who has read my opinion think I am piling on the victim.

Fake? Huh?
Outrage? Huh?
Self-righteous? On this topic? I figured I'd been pretty calm. Even spent overmany posts railing on the ills of PC culture in this discussion's offing.
Flippant? Ah, well, yeah that one could deffffinitely be me.
Anyway: If that's how you feel, there's not much I can do for you pal. Whether you want to engage is your call.

Anonymous Coward · « **Reply #715 on:** August 22, 2018, 02:13:02 PM »

It sounds like we may not get an answer today. A delay is more intriguing than an insta-answer. Seems like a debate is in progress.

Anonymous Coward · « **Reply #716 on:** August 22, 2018, 02:29:26 PM »

Meanwhile, it had somewhatr surprised me why Zach was so supportive of Meyer through the deliberations. What I hadn't considered is how he might hope to sue for unlawful termination if and only if Urban is reinstated without punishment. What a world if that lawsuit occurs and succeeds.

MrNubbz · « **Reply #717 on:** August 22, 2018, 02:51:58 PM »

Where would Zach Smith go to find a jury that would give him favorable/impartial reference?Michigan?Not that Urbz would find anything impartial one way or another.Smith would have to be the farther out of it than Capt.Kirk to even think about it

Anonymous Coward · « **Reply #718 on:** August 22, 2018, 02:59:39 PM »

Quote from: MrNubbz on August 22, 2018, 02:51:58 PM

Where would Zach Smith go to find a jury that would give him favorable/impartial reference?Michigan?Not that Urbz would find anything impartial one way or another.Smith would have to be the farther out of it than Capt.Kirk to even think about it

You think Michigan is the place where Zach would get the *best* shot? I'd predict he'd get the best shot in Ohio. Though this wouldn't be a criminal thing with a jury, so that's not relevant. His argument would be that this is a he-said/she-said and his boss forced him out under duress of a phony investigation and that because this boss was never punished, the duress was undue, and the firing unjust.

Riffraft · « **Reply #719 on:** August 22, 2018, 03:01:49 PM »

Quote from: Anonymous Coward on August 22, 2018, 12:11:40 PM

Her mom and her daughter are now estranged. We should doubt her recent (since the estrangement) ad libbed takes more than her pre-estrangement) and documented ones. And that's beside the fact that it's a documented conversation with Zach ... that reads in the particularly damning way it does.
You say Zach is a scumbag. But you also say he tooootally deserved his job from 2012 until precisely the end of July 2018. That is equivalent to saying "He's not a good guy, he's not total garbage, he had been juuuuust good enough to deserve his job."
You think he definitely deserved the job in 2012 (despite allegations that he not only was a documented serial abuser, but also a very bad football coach). You think he definitely deserved the job in 2015, despite those whirlwind allegations. You also seem to think he deserved his job despite flopping his penis about in the White House and having an inappropriate relationship with an OSU staffer who was ultimately relocated. You think he deserved to get this job and then keep it for a very long time.
Also, the real questions for Meyer aren't just about what he knew. He also has to answer for the environment he built, where - even if he didn't know - Zach was able to thrive out in the open and everyone else (ask Ramzy) knew.

Let me get this clear. so one incident in 2009 and nothing else as far as we know to 2012. Now qualifies as a "SERIAL" abuser. So he shouldn't have been hired in 2012. At least if you are going to speculate on the truth, get the speculation to line up with known facts.
We can talk about 2015, maybe he should have been fired. Should he have been fired it the truth is what his and her mothers said, that all he did was move her out of the way to get out of the house. That the police didn't have a probably cause to arrest either one of them.

Quote from: Anonymous Coward on August 22, 2018, 01:11:24 PM

They are separate but deserve to be stacked when the topic of deserving a job arises.
Serial assault of a woman is grounds for firing.
Inappropriate relationships with subordinates is grounds for firing.
Genitalia selfies are grounds for firing.
Chronic alcoholics may not break the law but often deserve to be fired. Of course, Zach's alcoholism did break the law (DUI). He was also bad at coaching football, which may or may not be connected to his alcoholism but would deserve firing either way.

Serial assault of a woman - Yes, but we have a he said, she said with the police deciding no charges with her mother siding with him.
Inappropriate relationship - Yes, but do we know that Urban knews about it. We have had affairs at my work where the hire ups know nothing about it. It has nothing to do with the "environment" created by them, it is a matter of you cannot know everything that is going on.
Genitalia pictures on the ground - Yes, but again do we know that Urban knew about it.
You want to give Urban omnipotence as to what happens at all time within the walls of Ohio State. That is beyond ridiculous. Humans are humans they will do what they want and hide it the best they can. I am not sure where you work, but I can tell you in my 40 years in the workforce, things happen that are unacceptable all the time, but the higher ups are unaware and it is nothing to do that they intentionally have a blind eye.

Honestbuckeye · « **Reply #720 on:** August 22, 2018, 03:03:01 PM »

OYou are simply ignoring the possibility that Meyer looked further into it every time accusations were made, reported them, discussed them and it was a continual struggle for anyone at OSU to know what was real. If eyewitness accounts, or lack of them, or police saying it’s the boy who cried Wolf- then maybe you think the solution is easy, but it may not be so simple.

Having, at one time, 790 people in 14 states reporting to me( thru 45 managers an 4 division managers) I can tell you, the act of terminating anyone without clear and specific cause is often not only extremely difficult- it can lead to serious liability.

You are convinced cause was clear here and state it line fact. Sorry/ you aren’t god. Some of the conversation- which is the evidence- gives the appearance that there was anything but clarity here AND OSU Tried to gain more clarity.

Anonymous Coward · « **Reply #721 on:** August 22, 2018, 03:06:10 PM »

If I keep typing that Urban should get off scot-free **if** he reported even every *rumor* and didn't build an environment to hide and thrive serial abusers, then I'm explicitly not ignoring that possibility. I never concluded anything. I just think, given the text messages where two people tell Zach he is an abuser and Zach agrees, that the odds that Urban reported every rumor and did not (accidentally) build a toxic environment are unlikely.

Anonymous Coward · « **Reply #722 on:** August 22, 2018, 03:14:20 PM »

I also think that (whether it was continually rumored assault, genitalia selfies, DUI, sexual relationship with a subordinate, being bad at coaching football, etc.), that Zach should have been discovered and fired long before July 2018.
Those are close to my only takes. Well, those, plus acknowledgement that even the internets most famous buckeye author, Ramzy, says yeah... "Everybody knew. I knew. I wrote around it for six years."
This conversation between us hasn't developed beyond those few points. I get it. You disagree with the probabilities attached to my interpretation of the evidence and you disagree with my take of Urban's responsibilities. So we keep going around in a tight circle.

MrNubbz · « **Reply #723 on:** August 22, 2018, 03:16:28 PM »

Quote from: Anonymous Coward on August 22, 2018, 02:59:39 PM

You think Michigan is the place where Zach would get the *best* shot? I'd predict he'd get the best shot in Ohio. Though this wouldn't be a criminal thing with a jury, so that's not relevant. His argument would be that this is a he-said/she-said and his boss forced him out under duress of a phony investigation and that because this boss was never punished, the duress was undue, and the firing unjust.

So now you're making Urban's case for him?That's the problem he really couldn't have fired him when Law enforcement made no arrests.Not w/o a law suit anyway,what happened in 2009 is a mess. Courtney absolutely lied about Earle Bruce,he never drove down there to talk her out of charges/divorce.Earle's daughter(Zach's mother) did,Earle supposedly did go but visited with Urban.If Urban knew all that then send him packing

Anonymous Coward · « **Reply #724 on:** August 22, 2018, 03:18:22 PM »

Quote from: MrNubbz on August 22, 2018, 03:16:28 PM

So now you're making Urban's case for him?That's the problem he really couldn't have fired him when Law enforcement made no arrests.Not w/o a law suit anyway,what happened in 2009 is a mess. Courtney absolutely lied about Earle Bruce,he never drove down there to talk her out of charges/divorce.Earle's daughter(Zach's mother) did,Earle supposedly did go but visited with Urban

I think it's clear that I don't think that case is trustworthy. But it's easy to assemble the arguments on either side of this. People, for all their complexities, are usually predictable. Especially when it comes to spin.

Anonymous Coward · « **Reply #725 on:** August 22, 2018, 03:21:13 PM »

Quote from: Riffraft on August 22, 2018, 03:01:49 PM

Let me get this clear. so one incident in 2009 and nothing else as far as we know to 2012. Now qualifies as a "SERIAL" abuser.

Yes. Plural instances of domestic violence qualifies as serial assault. Therefore, after 2009, every new rumor added into a picture against Zach of alleged serial assault.

Honestbuckeye · « **Reply #726 on:** August 22, 2018, 03:44:38 PM »

Quote from: Anonymous Coward on August 22, 2018, 03:21:13 PM

Yes. Plural instances of domestic violence qualifies as serial assault. Therefore, after 2009, every new rumor added into a picture against Zach of alleged serial assault.

It so easy to not take you seriously right now.
Now if you mean to say- the evidence will show that etc etc etc
But that’s not what your Saying. Your stretching to make very large leaps and assumptions and being inflammatory about it.
I find you not credible.

Anonymous Coward · « **Reply #727 on:** August 22, 2018, 03:50:13 PM »

Go back and notice the word "alleged." If you did notice it but didn't care, then ... neat for you.
To be accused of multiple instances (rumors) of domestic violence is to allegedly be a serial abuser. There's plenty in this conversation that is up for debate. But if someone debates this one, that person is disagreeing with dictionaries.

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