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Topic: IRS

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SFBadger96

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Re: IRS
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2024, 01:25:40 PM »
I've been through two, back-to-back IRS audits. It's not fun. And their assumption appears to be (I think they told us this explicitly) that you have done something wrong. In one instance we had a very minor adjustment (due to something our accountant had amortized incorrectly), the other one they found no problems. But both times it was invasive, targeting, and felt awful. 

They also explicitly told us that it's much easier to go after lower wage earners than the truly wealthy. The rich lawyer up and make things a nightmare--so while the amount at issue with the IRS is much bigger, it's also much more costly for the IRS to pursue them. That makes for an interesting enforcement dynamic.

However, without actual tax enforcement, there would be a lot more tax cheating than there is (and there is already a decent amount). This is one of those situations where improvements are definitely needed, but how we ended up with the enforcement system we have wasn't random or ridiculous, it responsed to the ways taxpayers were avoiding their taxes. 

Now, as to the tax code, it too, is the result of a lot of history and process. Our basic view of a progressive income tax isn't especially controversial (sure, there are those who advocate for a flat tax, etc., but the overall support for progressive taxation--even among the wealthy--is pretty strong). What makes our tax code difficult is that we use taxes as a way to encourage all kinds of behavior. At a basic level, the following are some of our fairly popularly known and popular tax decisions: we value being married and having children (reduced taxes--normally--for married, joint returns, and tax rebates--not merely write offs--for having children), we value investments differently than income (our tax code actually shows that we value investing money more than making money for directly performing services, i.e., we tax investment income less than we tax income we make from our own direct services), we value home ownership (we give a huge tax break, smaller following the Trump tax changes, for interest on home mortgages), we value saving for college and retirement (Sections 529 and 401K of the tax code), we value supporting non-profits (we provide a tax break for that), we value reinvesting profits in companies (as a general matter, you don't pay taxes on gross revenue, you pay for net revenue). Taking away these--and many other--tax breaks would cause a huge uproar. So the idea that we need a new tax code briefs well, but generally doesn't stand up to public scrutiny. Most of the complication of our tax code comes from these policy choices, and the big changes in how We the People collect revenue would come from eliminating some of these very popular tax policies.

Regardless, being on the receiving end of an IRS audit SUCKS.

Tangentially, direct services is one of the key jobs for our elected representatives. Helping us navigate a complicated federal government (or leaning on a government agency) is one of the ways--as Badge shows--that our representatives can earn their constituents' loyalty. Even in my Army days, when a constituent (in our case, Joe Snuffy) contacted their congressperson, and we received a letter of inquiry, we hopped right to addressing it (although ordinarily in our case it was explaining to Congressperson X that Joe Snuffy was a dirt bag and was appropriately disciplined as such).

Cincydawg

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Re: IRS
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2024, 01:30:33 PM »
Our tax system is quite a bit more progressive than most of those in Europe.  But, we do not tax wealth (aside from death).  The truly wealthy have legal means to avoid all income tax if they so wish (borrowing on assets).  So, they don't mind whether we change marginal income tax rates at all.

Europe tried taxing wealth, and it didn't work well,  All but three countries there rescinded it.

847badgerfan

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Re: IRS
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2024, 01:42:21 PM »
We hit a really rough spot in our business in 2012, and I did not take a paycheck for the entire year. Based on that, I was personally audited.

Soon after, the business was audited, because they found that I did not have taxable income. 

They thought I was skimming.

No, I was not. Our business (and many others) got hammered by bad policy at the (mostly) state and federal levels. So many firms failed in that timeframe, and then to have the IRS pour salt in the wound really sucked.

F the IRS.
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Cincydawg

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Re: IRS
« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2024, 01:44:01 PM »
A thing I noticed near us is two restaurants that do almost no business, some takeout.  Both survived COVID, both started just before COVID hit.  I really do wonder if they are both laundries.  

ELA

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Re: IRS
« Reply #32 on: October 16, 2024, 02:22:28 PM »
The truly wealthy have legal means to avoid all income tax if they so wish (borrowing on assets). 
That's why the IRS is useful hypothetically, but in actuality the ultra wealthy know how to not pay taxes, and the ultra poor don't have to.

So ultimately it's an agency that costs billions of dollars that has to find a way how to nickel and dime slightly more billions of dollars out of the middle 80% to pay for their own existence.

ELA

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Re: IRS
« Reply #33 on: October 16, 2024, 02:23:33 PM »
A thing I noticed near us is two restaurants that do almost no business, some takeout.  Both survived COVID, both started just before COVID hit.  I really do wonder if they are both laundries. 
Legitimate Businessman's Social Club - thesimpsons post - Imgur

bayareabadger

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Re: IRS
« Reply #34 on: October 16, 2024, 02:58:07 PM »
By definition, I'm wealthy.

I don't feel wealthy.

I find that odd.
Perhaps the takeaway is that wealth feels like a subtle form of security than actually feeling like you have abundance. 

There are always a more expenses and always spaces where you’re loathe to spent, regardless of income. 

bayareabadger

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Re: IRS
« Reply #35 on: October 16, 2024, 02:59:42 PM »
We hit a really rough spot in our business in 2012, and I did not take a paycheck for the entire year. Based on that, I was personally audited.

Soon after, the business was audited, because they found that I did not have taxable income.

They thought I was skimming.

No, I was not. Our business (and many others) got hammered by bad policy at the (mostly) state and federal levels. So many firms failed in that timeframe, and then to have the IRS pour salt in the wound really sucked.

F the IRS.
I hate to say it, but that does feel like a red flag or sorts. Unfortunate it happened to you. 

Cincydawg

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Re: IRS
« Reply #36 on: October 16, 2024, 03:02:58 PM »
To me, "Comfortable" means not having to worry about bills.  In part, that means not over spending on stuff of course.  In part, it means if your car needs repairs, you can pay for it without having to borrow.  Once one starts borrowing, it can get "expensive", which is a reason poorer folks stay poorer.  It's not always that they borrowed to go on vacation, it can be something unexpected.

My wife and I are careful about spending, probably too much so at times.  I have to jerk myself a bit at times to spend on a thing we'd enjoy, usually travel.

I've been "poor", and I didn't like it.

Gigem

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Re: IRS
« Reply #37 on: October 16, 2024, 03:11:31 PM »
I hate to say it, but that does feel like a red flag or sorts. Unfortunate it happened to you.
All my employees literally make more money than I do as the owner.  Because I'm still in start-up mode, I take home no pay.  I'm basically paying to own a business right now.  

Think about that next time somebody starts piping up about "greedy" business owners.  

The hope is that someday, soon!..?...I can finally start seeing some payback.  

847badgerfan

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Re: IRS
« Reply #38 on: October 16, 2024, 03:12:15 PM »
We're comfortable. We have good investments, her good pension, my good income, her Social, my buyout.

We keep 6 months of bills in the checkbook at all times. That's my comfort zone. 

The rest goes to disposable or investments.

I'd like to start travelling more again, honestly.
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847badgerfan

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Re: IRS
« Reply #39 on: October 16, 2024, 03:13:23 PM »
All my employees literally make more money than I do as the owner.  Because I'm still in start-up mode, I take home no pay.  I'm basically paying to own a business right now. 

Think about that next time somebody starts piping up about "greedy" business owners. 

The hope is that someday, soon!..?...I can finally start seeing some payback. 
I told you it wasn't going to be easy, and yes, when money is short the owner(s) is the first to not be paid. Because we're greedy. 


:72:
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ELA

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Re: IRS
« Reply #40 on: October 16, 2024, 03:17:44 PM »
The problem is the narrative of business owners is Silicon Valley types, who have an idea, that doesn't make money, and then get bought out in a bidding war of people either trying to snuff out a potential competitor, or fear they aren't the ones who bought low.

I'm terrified of setting up my own firm, and (fortunately?) the energy work I do doesn't lend itself to getting clients anyway.  But my wife always asks me why I don't.  I keep telling her if the complaint is I work too much, well then that's a great way to work just as much, for less money, and WAY less certainty, while we are still trying to figure out college or career training for 3 kids

bayareabadger

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Re: IRS
« Reply #41 on: October 16, 2024, 03:18:39 PM »
To me, "Comfortable" means not having to worry about bills.  In part, that means not over spending on stuff of course.  In part, it means if your car needs repairs, you can pay for it without having to borrow.  Once one starts borrowing, it can get "expensive", which is a reason poorer folks stay poorer.  It's not always that they borrowed to go on vacation, it can be something unexpected.

My wife and I are careful about spending, probably too much so at times.  I have to jerk myself a bit at times to spend on a thing we'd enjoy, usually travel.

I've been "poor", and I didn't like it.
I remember the first time that I had a busted tire and I was stressing considerably more at the inconvenience and about the cost. Real moment of self learning.

 

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