header pic

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


Author

Topic: In other news ...

 (Read 1012719 times)

betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12222
  • Liked:
Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24220 on: June 02, 2023, 02:47:50 PM »
On top of this, there is another issue.  Years ago you used to hear a lot about people being the first in their family to go to or graduate from college.  That has become a lot more rare.  What we now see instead is that the bulk of kids fit into one of two boxes:
  • Two married parents, both college educated. 
  • Single mother with a HS Diploma (at best) and absent (or outright unknown) father. 

Worse, this sorting has been going on long enough that it is now multi-generational such that most of the kids in group #1, in addition to having two college educated parents, also have four college educated grandparents and frequently college educated aunts and uncles as well.  Meanwhile the kids in group #2 tend to have less grandparent involvement (because the missing dad's parents are also missing) and rarely have college educated grandparents, aunts, or uncles. 

This creates a vast gulf between group #1 and group #2.  For one thing, intelligence is at least partially heritable so the kids in group #1, on average, are smarter than the kids in group #2 to begin with.  They also have smarter and more involved parents, grandparents, aunts, and uncles.  The kids in group #1 have advantages that the kids in group #2 simply do not have. 
The collapse of the urban high schools was like a snowball rolling downhill.  As they declined the parents who could afford to get out left and those parents tended to have the best students in the schools so their exit hurt the schools more which caused more parents to leave and this feedback loop ultimately resulted in the catastrophically bad urban High Schools that we have in the US today. 

Yep. I'm basically a product of both of the things you describe here. My grandpa on my dad's side was a machinist on the South side of Chicago. On my mom's side, my grandpa was basically the equivalent of an industrial engineer, but I'm not sure if that was a "grow into it" job or if he actually went to college. My dad went to college and was the first in his family; his brothers went to Vietnam. My mom went to college. 

They initially lived in Chicago, then moved out to the suburb of Oak Park. Eventually (just after I was born) they moved further out to the very white, very WASP-y, very well off suburb of Wheaton. 

They struggled. We lived in a rented, not owned, home basically my entire childhood. They did alright, but we were most assuredly NOT the well-to-do family in the area. Basically solid middle class, in an upper-middle class neighborhood. 

I think I know why they did it. There's nature and nurture. They wanted their kids to be in an environment where nobody was ever asked "are you going to college?" It would have been a ludicrous question. The question was "where are you going to college?" They know that we're all partially products of our environment, so they wanted to set us up in the best environment they could. 

I'm sure my life would have been a lot different if I'd grown up in the neighborhood around 61st and Pulaski where my dad did. Which isn't to say I wouldn't have gone to college or been successful, but that SO many differences in my upbringing would have made me a different person than who I am today. 

Of course, what that means is that if we're partially products of our environment, and we self-segregate those environments based on class, then you end up with a self-fulfilling prophecy where the bad environments are nearly impossible to get out of and be successful, and the good environments produces "failures" who probably still end up doing well enough. And they perpetuate themselves generation by generation. 


OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 18899
  • Liked:
Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24221 on: June 02, 2023, 04:06:31 PM »
Now that I've agreed with @OrangeAfroMan , I'll disagree with him.  He commented about poorer districts needing more money.  I worked in lots of school districts.  The poor area urban districts have LOTS of money.  Granted, they waste most of it, but they aren't lacking for funds.  On a per student basis, the urban districts spend LOTS of money at least close to as much as the rich suburban districts.  The reason is two things:

  • Most states have some sort of "Robin Hood" provision as @utee94 described for Texas. 
  • Many federal grants are based to one degree or another on percentage of students or number of students on the free lunch program which effectively gives the poorer districts TONS of federal money. 


You're not wrong, BUT nearly every cent of additional funding poor districts get is attached to a specific use.  Obviously, this makes sense, as you don't want to give them a blank check to spend on whatever they want.  BUT it also acts as a big restrictor plate in terms of needing money for something important that a district needs, but they're not allowed to use monies that are earmarked for other things.
.
The root of my suggestion is simply that if rich districts get more money and poor districts get less, you're obviously just widening the already massive gap.  The math of using local taxes only leads to the problem worsening.  This is partly how you have multi-generational slums.  You look up the paperwork on arrests and crimes in Baltimore from the 70s and you compare them to now - it's all the same crimes being committed in all the same areas.  Nothing has changed.  How could it?  
.
Add to that - better, nicer areas tend to get better teachers, parents who give a damn, etc and the outcomes are obvious.  And like the same areas having the same crime problems over decades, you have families who go to the best schools, end up at Ivy League schools, and get the top careers.  Just as the snowball goes down for the poor, the snowball flies up the mountain for the rich.  
.
Your main point is the truth - just throwing money at it isn't the fix.  But the argument that evening out tax funding is one for fairness.  Equality (gasp).  A simple attempt to merely halt the widening gap, not close it fully.  Closing it fully would take decades of wholesale paradigm shifts in schooling, personal relationships, and expectations.
It's a massive correction that may never actually happen.  But stopping the widening gap is reasonable and doable.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12222
  • Liked:
Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24222 on: June 02, 2023, 04:24:48 PM »
The root of my suggestion is simply that if rich districts get more money and poor districts get less, you're obviously just widening the already massive gap.  
Is that the case, though? 

I didn't end up posting it, but on Wednesday I was going to respond to one of your posts with some digging I did on per-student spending here in SoCal. 

Problem is that it's hard to do as an outsider, even though I can download spending that's actually got total expenditure and even in per-ADA (average daily attendance, a proxy for student population) breakout. But "spending" may include TONS of things that aren't actual instruction, so it's hard.

But either way, I filtered it to Unified school districts and then further filtered for districts spending >$100M annually to try to break out some of the outliers. 

Los Angeles Unified was spending a little over $23,000 per-ADA. Where my kids go to school (expensive Orange County) was about $14,000 per-ADA. Other OC districts such as Irvine (which is a HIGHLY desirable district to live in / send your kids) was only a little over $13K. Some of the other places that you'd think would be poorer (Oakland, for example) were up there near LAUSD for spending. 

Again, maybe not all of this is spent on students. Maybe these districts have larger overhanging retirement / pension spending that's included. I don't know. But there certainly wasn't a correlation I could find between how rich the people were / how high the home values are in these areas and the spending. 

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 18899
  • Liked:
Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24223 on: June 02, 2023, 04:30:58 PM »
The part you bolded was just about local tax monies, not overall.  As I said in my post, the other monies coming in are all separated into different uses.  
Per-pupil spending is a very vague measure in this respect.  
If 80% of your students walk to school, a big transportation pool of money isn't super meaningful.  If you get a big grant for SPED students, that's great for them, but they may only be 3% of your school's population.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 18899
  • Liked:
Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24224 on: June 02, 2023, 04:31:49 PM »

The tax money thing also isn't just about the school funding, it's about everything.
If your kid has to walk down a dirty alley filled with trash cans and used needles, past a dozen stray cats, a homeless guy sleeping in the corner, and big-scary dogs barking at them, they might enter the school with a different mindset than the one who walked past grassy, manicured sidewalks, along a pond with a fountain.
It's all connected.  

All of that being said, without families that give a damn (or are able to) and quality teachers in poor districts, nothing will change.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2023, 04:38:50 PM by OrangeAfroMan »
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 18899
  • Liked:
Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24225 on: June 02, 2023, 04:48:58 PM »


I think that discipline issues are a major factor.  In a typical High School there are going to be some kids who are uninterested in learning and are going to be disruptive.  I assume that @OrangeAfroMan is a good teacher who tries hard and as long as the percentage of this type of kid (I'll call them the disruptors) is minimal, he can minimize the damage and still provide a productive learning environment for the other kids.  The problem, I think, is that there is what I'll call a "critical mass" issue.  Once the disruptors reach a certain percentage (which probably varies by teacher) it simply becomes impossible for the teacher to sideline the disruptors and maintain a productive learning environment for the rest of the kids. 

Yeah, in my "if I was in charge" rants, I'd want to devise a study in which each student was observed and given an attention rating.
You can have 30-40 focused students and still be very productive, as long as there's no "disruptors."  That's actually what one school is our district is:  they assess students academically and socially to allow them in.  Unsurprisingly, despite larger class sizes, that school always performs better than any of the others (and usually, by far).
So the quiet, focused students wouldn't be counted as 1 each, they'd be 0.3 or something of a student.  Big-time disruptive students would be 2.0 or 3.3 or something like that.
All classes would ~30.0 "students" or so, but using this system.  So you'd have some classes full of engaged students numbering 40 or so and other classes may have only 6-8. 
Crazy, I know.  But it would help get more students where we want them to get, academically.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 37597
  • Liked:
Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24226 on: June 02, 2023, 11:37:59 PM »
All of that being said, without families that give a damn (or are able to) and quality teachers in poor districts, nothing will change.
ding ding ding

winner!
it's not about the $$$, only
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 18899
  • Liked:
Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24227 on: June 03, 2023, 04:01:51 AM »
ding ding ding

winner!
it's not about the $$$, only
I don't think anyone ever suggested that.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71627
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24228 on: June 03, 2023, 07:20:40 AM »

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71627
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24229 on: June 03, 2023, 07:33:23 AM »
Arizona seeks to avert groundwater disaster   | The Hill
Arizona seeks to avert groundwater disaster   | The Hill


Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71627
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24230 on: June 03, 2023, 07:38:03 AM »
I recall water concerns around here a decade or so back.  The area experienced a prolonged drought, the lakes were getting so low a lot of boat docks no longer reached water.  They are full today incidentally, and the problem has abated, at least shorter term.  One thing about using water, it doesn't go away except via evaporation, it's still around, just dirtier.  I don't know the balance of this, I can see open irrigation would mean a lot would evaporate and be "gone".  Sewage treatment can generate potable water, not grey water, but fully potable with some effort.

One thing about this metro area and Dallas and some others is there is no Lake Michigan to the east, the only real barrier to expansion is the mountains to the north and they are 60-80 miles up there.  It's all buildable in other directions, in theory.  And land gets cheaper of course as one gets further out, which contributes to ridiculous traffic.


847badgerfan

  • Administrator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 25280
  • Liked:
Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24231 on: June 03, 2023, 07:49:59 AM »
Since I brought it up, I'll explain my kitchen remodel project and see if any of you have ideas/advice I can use. 

First, I should say, this will not be terribly soon because the previous owner finished the basement which makes it impossible for me to get to the breaker box to run new circuits.  Thus, project #1 is to remove the drywall ceiling in that part of the basement and replace it with a dropped ceiling so that I'll have removable panels and the ability to run wires to the box to add circuits as necessary. 

The solution to this is a subpanel for the kitchen, in the kitchen somewhere. Is your stove and oven electric?
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 37597
  • Liked:
Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24232 on: June 03, 2023, 08:09:39 AM »
or even just on the other side of the wall of the kitchen.  Say the laundry room or garage
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71627
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24233 on: June 03, 2023, 04:46:40 PM »
Two facts struck me about US education:

We spend more per student K-12 than any other major country.

About 2/3rds of our HS grads go to college, in Europe it's closer to 1/3.

 

Support the Site!
Purchase of every item listed here DIRECTLY supports the site.