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Topic: In other news ...

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medinabuckeye1

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24206 on: June 02, 2023, 11:16:38 AM »
So I wanted to chime in on this school thing that was a topic a few pages back.  

First, I want to take this opportunity to agree with @OrangeAfroMan on something.  He commented on the charter schools getting better students and he is absolutely right here.  The sad reality in a lot of ghetto schools is that the parents are horrible.  The few whose parents (LoL, parent as nearly nobody in ghettos has two of them) who actually are smart and conscientious and care enough to bother to get their kids signed up for the charter school option are the best parents.  Those kids were already going to be the best students.  

This obviously creates a massive selection bias issue.  Students at the charter schools nearly always do better but realistically that doesn't prove that the charter schools are any better.  They might even be worse but they have better students with better parental support at home so the end results look better.  Charter schools then use the end results to "prove" their worth which is outright silly.  

Honestbuckeye

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24207 on: June 02, 2023, 11:17:13 AM »
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/national-donut-day-2023-deals-get-free-donuts-at-krispy-kreme-dunkin-and-more-friday/ar-AA1bYvmf


You all were talking about doughnuts the other day.  Did I miss it- or did you not mention that today is national donut day?

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medinabuckeye1

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24208 on: June 02, 2023, 11:21:17 AM »
Now that I've agreed with @OrangeAfroMan , I'll disagree with him.  He commented about poorer districts needing more money.  I worked in lots of school districts.  The poor area urban districts have LOTS of money.  Granted, they waste most of it, but they aren't lacking for funds.  On a per student basis, the urban districts spend LOTS of money at least close to as much as the rich suburban districts.  The reason is two things:

  • Most states have some sort of "Robin Hood" provision as @utee94 described for Texas.  
  • Many federal grants are based to one degree or another on percentage of students or number of students on the free lunch program which effectively gives the poorer districts TONS of federal money.  


Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24209 on: June 02, 2023, 11:30:11 AM »
The urban HS near me has some super nice facilities.  I gather they have money.

Midtown High School - Atlanta, Georgia - GA | GreatSchools

College Readiness
Low-income and underserved students 
16%
All other students 
84%

Test Scores
Low-income and underserved students 
45%
All other students 
88%





bayareabadger

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24210 on: June 02, 2023, 12:45:20 PM »
The Texas one was also interesting becuase it adjusted up for rural students, and was also totally locked into property taxes, which creates some interesting warping. 

bayareabadger

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24211 on: June 02, 2023, 12:45:58 PM »

First, I want to take this opportunity to agree with @OrangeAfroMan on something.  He commented on the charter schools getting better students and he is absolutely right here.  The sad reality in a lot of ghetto schools is that the parents are horrible.  The few whose parents (LoL, parent as nearly nobody in ghettos has two of them) who actually are smart and conscientious and care enough to bother to get their kids signed up for the charter school option are the best parents.  Those kids were already going to be the best students. 
That's a dark thing to laugh about right there. 

MrNubbz

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24212 on: June 02, 2023, 01:08:22 PM »
Thus, project #1 is to remove the drywall ceiling in that part of the basement and replace it with a dropped ceiling so that I'll have removable panels and the ability to run wires to the box to add circuits as necessary.
Evidently the guy who had this house built in'68 was an electrician and he panneled half the basement and installed outlets every 8 ft or so.  He also DW'ed the ceiling there wish to GOD he'd have done the drop easy peazy for access
Suburbia:Where they tear out the trees & then name streets after them.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24213 on: June 02, 2023, 01:29:08 PM »
Evidently the guy who had this house built in'68 was an electrician and he panneled half the basement and installed outlets every 8 ft or so.  He also DW'ed the ceiling there wish to GOD he'd have done the drop easy peazy for access
If you decide to replace it, I've used some all pvc drop ceiling that worked really well for me.  With the old stuff the metal rails could rust and the fiber? panels were notorious for absorbing water.  The ones I've used lately I got at Menards and both the rails and the panels were pvc such that water does not damage them or infiltrate them.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24214 on: June 02, 2023, 01:48:43 PM »
That's a dark thing to laugh about right there.
It is and it is incredibly sad but it is a humongous factor in all of this and I'll take this opportunity to elaborate on that.  

Around half of all US births are to unmarried mothers.  I had never really thought about it and just kinda assumed that other than a bit of a variation racially, this was more-or-less an across-the-spectrum issue.  It most certainly is NOT.  I can't find the source right now but among white women with college degrees more than 90% of those with children are married.  These people are decidedly NOT from the ghetto.  

If you go back to the 1950's - 1960's there was almost no variation of marriage rates by class.  There was some by race but almost none by class.  Today the racial gap is bigger AND we've added a class gap.  

Basically what has happened is that marriage has become a luxury that only the relatively well-to-do enjoy.  Poorer children of all races are generally raised by single mothers.  

On top of this, there is another issue.  Years ago you used to hear a lot about people being the first in their family to go to or graduate from college.  That has become a lot more rare.  What we now see instead is that the bulk of kids fit into one of two boxes:
  • Two married parents, both college educated.  
  • Single mother with a HS Diploma (at best) and absent (or outright unknown) father.  

Worse, this sorting has been going on long enough that it is now multi-generational such that most of the kids in group #1, in addition to having two college educated parents, also have four college educated grandparents and frequently college educated aunts and uncles as well.  Meanwhile the kids in group #2 tend to have less grandparent involvement (because the missing dad's parents are also missing) and rarely have college educated grandparents, aunts, or uncles.  

This creates a vast gulf between group #1 and group #2.  For one thing, intelligence is at least partially heritable so the kids in group #1, on average, are smarter than the kids in group #2 to begin with.  They also have smarter and more involved parents, grandparents, aunts, and uncles.  The kids in group #1 have advantages that the kids in group #2 simply do not have.  

This is where @OrangeAfroMan has a very valid point that should not be ignored.  If you are a teacher in a district with mostly kids from group #2 and I am a teacher in a district with mostly kids from group #1, my kids will ALWAYS outperform your kids no matter how good of a teacher you are and no matter how bad of a teacher I am.  

Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24215 on: June 02, 2023, 02:05:26 PM »
My kids' HS combined with a much poorer and blacker HS decades ago.  They've done a pretty decent job I think, and spend a ton of money, but it isn't easy.  They have students from trailer parks as well (poor white trash).  It's plurality black, quite a few Hispanics, a fair number of Asians, and minority white.  They have 61% on free/disc school lunches.  The good news is that SOME of the black kids take advantage and excel, not all of course, but I doubt they'd have had much chance in the old nearly all black school district.

Princeton High School in Cincinnati OH - SchoolDigger


Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24216 on: June 02, 2023, 02:10:34 PM »
I was running today and noted a group of kids running and doing various things, led by a young lady maybe 35 or so.  They were all black.  As I came around the "coach" waved at me and I waved back and stopped the next time around to chat with her.  The kids play in a summer basketball league and were out there getting into shape, she said.  She pointed out a couple, one younger lady maybe 25 who was in fine shape she said played college basketball and was working on her master's, and another kid she pointed out was that lady's son.  She was 23 I'd guess already with a son that looked 10 or so.  Credit to her for going to college of course.  They were a nice group, ran past me a time or three of course.  She told me most were HS seniors from various HS's.  The good news is they were out there exercising when probably they'd be playing on their phones.

I give a lot of credit to kids from challenging circumstances who do well overall, it can't be easy.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24217 on: June 02, 2023, 02:12:46 PM »
More on education:
The last living WWII veteran that I personally know is a guy who attended Cleveland's Aviation High School.  He was going to be a 1942 graduate but he had enough credits to graduate early so after the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor he cashed in his credits, graduated in December, 1941, and joined the Navy where he got right into aviation (like he wanted).  

My dad was born in 1940 and even as late as the mid-to-late 1950's when he was in High School, Cleveland's High Schools were much better than what we had out here in the sticks.  They had the aforementioned Aviation High School and two Tech High Schools (East and West) and generally offered things that smaller districts couldn't offer for lack of sufficient size to fill the courses.  

The collapse of the urban high schools was like a snowball rolling downhill.  As they declined the parents who could afford to get out left and those parents tended to have the best students in the schools so their exit hurt the schools more which caused more parents to leave and this feedback loop ultimately resulted in the catastrophically bad urban High Schools that we have in the US today.  

I think that discipline issues are a major factor.  In a typical High School there are going to be some kids who are uninterested in learning and are going to be disruptive.  I assume that @OrangeAfroMan is a good teacher who tries hard and as long as the percentage of this type of kid (I'll call them the disruptors) is minimal, he can minimize the damage and still provide a productive learning environment for the other kids.  The problem, I think, is that there is what I'll call a "critical mass" issue.  Once the disruptors reach a certain percentage (which probably varies by teacher) it simply becomes impossible for the teacher to sideline the disruptors and maintain a productive learning environment for the rest of the kids.  

Years ago schools were legally "In Loco Parentis" which meant that they more-or-less had carte-blanche to discipline as they saw fit.  That changed when the Supreme Court decided that kids in schools had a right to due process.  

Example:
My dad drove a School Bus.  He first drove in the early 1960's right after he got out of the Marine Corps.  Then he did other things then started driving again in the late 1970's.  In the early 1960's if a kid caused too much trouble my dad literally had the authority to stop the bus, eject the kid (forcibly if necessary), and continue on the route with the other kids.  

When he started driving again in 1979 things were very different.  If a kid caused a problem my dad had to fill out a report and turn it in to the Transportation Supervisor.  If the Supervisor deemed it necessary, the report was forwarded to the Superintendent who forwarded it to the kids' principal who then scheduled a meeting with the parents, the principal, and the Bus Driver.  By the time this meeting occurred it was weeks after the initial infraction.  There were a few drivers who were considered "OT whores" who would constantly file these reports.  The rest (like my dad) basically ignored all discipline issues that didn't leave any blood.  

The severely diminished authority of the Schools to remove disruptors coupled with the diminished quality of urban HS students due to flight (not just white flight, upper class blacks don't like in crappy urban school districts either) has left the urban schools with way more than a critical mass of disruptive students such that the schools fail to provide a productive learning environment for the kids who would benefit from it.  

IMHO, there needs to be a compromise between the extreme of random bus drivers dropping kids off whenever they saw fit and discipline effectively disappearing from the schools.  In the urban districts the disruptors need to be removed from general pop so that the non-disruptive kids have a chance.  

Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24218 on: June 02, 2023, 02:20:06 PM »
 Expect a rooftop pool deck and gym, a golf simulator, a clubroom with skyline views, fire pits high off the street, valet dry cleaning, coworking stations, a cybercafe, EV charging stations, and bike storage, plus dedicated dog runs and a pet spa.

Geesh, amenities in new apt buildings these days....

medinabuckeye1

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #24219 on: June 02, 2023, 02:31:04 PM »
One more thought on Education:
When I was a Senior in High School we had a very good basketball team.  Now I need to point out that I went to a suburban and mostly white High School.  Our tallest player was barely taller than me (6-2) and *COULD* dunk but only if nobody was in his way, and he had a running start, and the wind was just right, and etc.  My school's team's version of basketball bore almost no resemblance to the game played in the NBA and even the B1G.  However, they were REALLY good at hitting long range shots so they won a lot of games.  

In Ohio the playoffs for HSBB are seeded so my school's highly seeded team cruised through their first few matchups with ease then got sent to the Akron region with games played at Akron University's James A. Rhodes Arena (JAR).  

Some friends and I drove over to the JAR for the first game and as we were watching pregame warmups we were worried.  The opponent was a City League (read inner City) Akron team and it was abundantly obvious that these kids were vastly more athletic than the guys from our school.  Seriously, they were ALL dunking in warmups.  

So the game started:
My school's team absolutely dominated.  The kids on the other team had literally no idea how to play basketball as a team sport.  They all appeared to be excellent "streetball" players but I honestly don't think they even know what a pick and roll was.  They played as if each of them were individually up against our five guys.  

During the game there was a guy standing at the other team's bench who looked like a coach.  He was dressed like a coach and he looked like a coach and he was standing where the coach should have been standing, but they didn't have a coach.  It was abundantly obvious that nobody had ever huddled up with these guys and said "Ok, here is how you play basketball as a team sport".  They had no idea.  

Fast forward a few days, my school's team played another City League team.  As my friends and I watched warmups we weren't worried at all.  We could see that the opposing team was vastly more athletic than our guys but we'd seen this before so we thought all was well.  

So the game started:
My school's team got drilled.  The opponent had the athleticism AND they had a coach who had taken the time to teach them how to play BB as a team sport.  They weren't just a random group of streetballers who happened to be wearing matching shirts, they were an actual BB team.  

In terms of BB ability there was not a discernable difference between the team that got destroyed by my HS's team and the team that destroyed my HS's team.  The difference was coaching.  One team had a coach and the other didn't.  

The lesson I've taken away from that is that it matters.  The example is BB but it applies to academics.  There are some kids in those crappy urban High Schools who want to learn and who might be able to learn if we give them teachers like the second coach and remove the disruptors.  IMHO, we as a society owe them that chance.  

Finally, I'll add this.  My supposition is that it probably doesn't matter much at the margins.  The young Einsteins in crappy schools will probably eventually get to better schools regardless.  Similarly, there are some who are just beyond help.  My view is that this isn't about the margins it is about the much more numerous middle.  Those kids in the middle that could go either way are the ones where a good teacher, like the good coach in the example above, might just make the difference between a kid headed off to University to get a degree and a kid heading to a different State Institution as an involuntary guest for 25-life.  

 

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