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Topic: In other news ...

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847badgerfan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #23730 on: May 18, 2023, 10:02:41 AM »
The Italian Frecciarossa is also awesome. However, it took a long time for the Italian government to overhaul the structure of it's railroads. It started in 1980, and has taken almost an entire generation and the entrant of a competitor (Italo) to get things to where they are now.

This study from the International Transport Forum is a fascinating read on such things.

https://www.itf-oecd.org/sites/default/files/docs/high-speed-rail-competition-italy.pdf
Best way to travel within Italy, by far.
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #23731 on: May 18, 2023, 10:09:49 AM »
I recently checked the price of a train from Marseille to Florence, Italy.  Flying was cheaper and faster.  I got a note that Delta restarted the nonstop from here to Nice and I thought that could be a nice trip, visit Marseille and the daugher in law and then Florence.  I figured we could take the train from one to the other.  Plane fares are weird.

But I'm not going to take a train when flying is cheaper and faster.
Yeah, we took the train from Rome to the Cinque Terre, and then from there to Florence. Both were about 4 hours which is reasonable and I'm not sure there is any decent air service to the Cinque Terre anyway. 

But from Florence to Paris would not have been feasible by rail, for what was maybe a 2 or 2 1/2 hour flight. 

Cincydawg

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Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #23733 on: May 18, 2023, 10:12:45 AM »
The flight from here to Paris was about $1700, the flight from here to Marseille was about $1450.  It goes through Paris.  Nice was about $1600, comfort seats, depending on day.  My wife is wanting to go of course, I delayed it because she had to renew her passport and it took a while, but it came last week.

So my excuse is gone other than saying it's too expensive.

GopherRock

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #23734 on: May 18, 2023, 10:39:33 AM »
We're looking at fares for our trip to South Korea in August. Costs almost a thousand dollars more to fly nonstop on Delta than on American over DFW.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #23735 on: May 18, 2023, 10:42:01 AM »
That's why I'm flummoxed how there isn't a real transportation option between driving 60 mph and being responsible for your own car's operation AND flying 5 miles in the air at 600 mph in a giant tube, maintained by trained professionals.
.
I had a trip that wasn't time-sensitive and looked into a train trip, but was stunned by the prices.  Go slow AND pay a lot?!?  Brilliant!
.
The train thing in CA was going to be a failure from the start.  From strictly a known, red-tape issue, CA is the number 1 worst place to build such a thing.  Might as well build igloos in Phoenix.  Run a marathon up a snowy mountain with no shoes on.  Go hunting for skyscrapers in Wheeling, WV.  Waste of time.
On your "go slow and pay a lot" comment, that is exactly it.  For my trip to Lincoln the options:
  • Amtrack at $614/person, takes about 24 hours (a little under one way, a little over the other)
  • Airline at $360 (but you get dropped in Omaha), takes 3:25.  
  • Car from my house to the stadium, Google says takes 13:05 (I can beat that) and is a drive of 857 mi
The train is literally more expensive than flying and slower than driving.  The price of driving obviously varies a lot.  It is a 1,714 round trip so at 20-30 mpg it would take 57-86 gallons of gas.  if we figure gas is $4/gal that is $228-$344.  If you are driving by yourself in a Suburban it would be almost as cheap to fly but driving has several advantages:
  • You go on your own schedule.  With trains or planes you go when they go.  
  • You have your car when you get there.  With the train option this isn't a big deal since the train station is in downtown Lincoln, walking distance from Memorial Stadium.  However, this is a BIG deal with the flight option since the flight goes to Omaha and you still need to get from there to Lincoln somehow.  
  • Probably the biggest advantage to driving is that extra passengers have little or no impact on fuel consumption so when you add passengers the per-passenger price drops.  While flying is almost as cheap as driving alone in a Suburban, I did the trip with my dad in a car that got ~30 MPG so it was MUCH cheaper than flying and MUCH faster than the train.  

On this whole issue in general, the biggest reason that the US doesn't have a lot of functional HSR isn't red tape, some uniquely American refusal to take mass transit, or anything like that, it is simply population density.  Any form of mass transit needs enough potential customers to work which is why there are Subways, busses, and the El in big cities but you don't see those in rural areas.  Population Density per km2:
  • 37 USA
  • 338 Japan
  • 280 UK
  • 238 Germany
  • 199 Italy
  • 151 China
  • 118 France
There are areas in the US that DO have the population density to support mass transit but they aren't nearly as large as the areas of Europe that have that density.  Even a state like New York with NYC, Albany, Buffalo, and Syracuse also has a massive upstate area that is pretty sparsely populated.  California is another great example.  There are a ton of people crammed in between the mountains and the Pacific but the rest of the state is mostly empty desert.  


Japan has almost 10x the population density that we have.  Even France has nearly 4x our population density.  

MrNubbz

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #23736 on: May 18, 2023, 11:20:07 AM »
We're looking at fares for our trip to South Korea in August. Costs almost a thousand dollars more to fly nonstop on Delta than on American over DFW.
Hell if American gives me a chute and knocks off another 50 I'm in
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847badgerfan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #23737 on: May 18, 2023, 11:29:00 AM »
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #23738 on: May 18, 2023, 11:35:49 AM »
I was really hoping he'd sit this one out.
At this point it looks like his chances of actually beating Trump are basically slim-to-none but there are still at least two really good reasons for him to stay in the race:
  • There is a nonzero chance that Trump will be unable to run either due to various legal issues or his health, the guy is 76.
  • He might be "running for VP" and considering that Trump is 76 and could not run again in 2028 if he won in 2024, this might be the best VP gig since Ford got appointed after Spiro Agnew resigned. 


847badgerfan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #23739 on: May 18, 2023, 11:52:47 AM »
I doubt he's gonna want to be a VP for #45, and I doubt #45 would want him.

They are very far from being friends.

Anyway, retirement age is what now, 67? That should be limit for Federal office. ANY office.
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #23740 on: May 18, 2023, 12:21:09 PM »
There are areas in the US that DO have the population density to support mass transit but they aren't nearly as large as the areas of Europe that have that density.  Even a state like New York with NYC, Albany, Buffalo, and Syracuse also has a massive upstate area that is pretty sparsely populated.  California is another great example.  There are a ton of people crammed in between the mountains and the Pacific but the rest of the state is mostly empty desert. 
There's a reason that Washington-NYC and NYC-Boston are the two functional rail lines, and why LA-SF won't be, even if it's HSR. 

Both of those East Coast corridors will get you city to city in under 4 hours. HSR in CA is estimating 6 hours. I honestly believe about that 4 hour range is the upper bound beyond which rail travel fails. 

I highlighted earlier that flight time from SoCal to NorCal is 1 hour. But obviously that's not how long the trip takes. I need to budget 30 minutes to drive to Orange County to park. I prefer to get to the airport 60-90 minutes before flight time to get checked in (if traveling with my wife, that includes checking backs which I don't do when I travel alone), get through TSA, all so we can start boarding 30 minutes prior to takeoff and not be stressed over time. Then it's an hour flight. Then 20-30 minutes to deplane and get those checked bags. Finally, then there's getting a rental car, or if we're going to SF, taking a 30 minute BART ride up into the city. 

So that's a 4 hour trip, and that's assuming the flight is on time. By flying I've added 3 hours to my actual trip outside transit time. 

Anything near or less than that, and I honestly would rather drive. I.e. my wife was talking about flying to Vegas when we go in Sept, and that sounds like a hell of a lot of a hassle to avoid a 4 hour drive. Since we're going on a Saturday morning and coming back first thing Sunday morning, we'll avoid the only thing that usually makes me willing to fly--the Friday afternoon HELL trying to get out of Orange County on CA-91. Even for going up to the Bay Area, it's a 5-6 hour drive but if it's something where having a car is useful (i.e. Napa/Sonoma), I might even choose driving anyway. If it's downtown SF where I wouldn't dare have a car, then flying obviously makes sense. 

Now compare it to HSR. The advantage to HSR is that you don't have the TSA, you don't check bags, you don't have checkin that you have to arrive 90 minutes before the train leaves, etc. Literally you can show up 10 minutes before the train leaves and hop right on. And when you arrive at your destination, you just get off the train with your bags and go on your way. 

So for me, since I don't live near Union Station in LA, I would probably take the 10 minute drive to the Irvine metro station 10 minutes before a train leaves, there are frequent trains that get me up to LA in an hour, and as long as I don't cut it SUPER close I might wait 20-30 minutes for the HSR to leave. And then it's 6 hours and drops me off in downtown SF (I believe). So yeah, it probably adds about 90-120 minutes total, but considering I have to make it from Irvine to LA, that is actually an hour of real transit.

You could say I'm cherry-picking, because if I had to fly out of LAX (60 minutes drive plus factoring in 30 more minutes for traffic) for example it would be a lot different than flying out of Orange County. But I'd argue that since there are 5 pretty significant airports in the LA megalopolis, pretty much everyone lives within 30 minutes of an airport. 

But it's 4ish hours by plane, 6ish hours by car, and 8ish hours by HSR. If HSR were cheap, it would make tons of sense to not have to worry about driving. But if HSR is as expensive (or moreso) than flying, there's no way it makes sense to double my trip time and pay anywhere near the same cost. 

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #23741 on: May 18, 2023, 12:23:21 PM »
BTW I heard Dave Chappelle just had a surprise show in San Francisco and apparently asked them "what the $&@^ happened here?" Supposedly it was due to him trying to go to a restaurant and seeing someone taking a dump in the street right next to the restaurant. 

But one of his comments about SF was kinda funny:

"San Francisco now is half Glee, and half zombie movie."

GopherRock

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #23742 on: May 18, 2023, 12:42:36 PM »
Air traffic controllers are out at 56, federal law enforcement at 57, pilots at 65, and judges in several states at 70. 

847badgerfan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #23743 on: May 18, 2023, 12:45:02 PM »
Air traffic controllers are out at 56, federal law enforcement at 57, pilots at 65, and judges in several states at 70.
Wasn't there some chatter about upping the ages for controllers and pilots due to the shortages?
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