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Topic: In other news ...

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MrNubbz

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #19320 on: October 04, 2022, 11:36:46 AM »
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847badgerfan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #19321 on: October 04, 2022, 11:50:49 AM »
Someone from the inside needs to take him out. Of course he's KGB, so he knows all the tricks.
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MikeDeTiger

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #19322 on: October 04, 2022, 12:16:54 PM »
He needs an off-ramp.  

I'm no psychologist and I've obviously never met him, but I do not think he's crazy.  The (super) amateur Russo-European history student in me believes that the average American mind doesn't adequately understand how the Russian people view Ukraine, and that if taken from a different POV, you can see the sense in his goal, if not the methods.  I don't think his are the actions of a mad man.  

The world leaders (read: us) need to give him a way out that satisfies all parties enough and allows him to save face.  It wouldn't come without a cost, but at this point things aren't going back to the way we were.  I do not care to get into general politics at this time, but imo we have a role in all this, and largely by inaction, I think the US has handled this more than poorly.  
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Mdot21

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #19323 on: October 04, 2022, 12:26:09 PM »
Quote from: MikeDeTiger on October 04, 2022, 12:16:54 PM
He needs an off-ramp. 

I'm no psychologist and I've obviously never met him, but I do not think he's crazy.  The (super) amateur Russo-European history student in me believes that the average American mind doesn't adequately understand how the Russian people view Ukraine, and that if taken from a different POV, you can see the sense in his goal, if not the methods.  I don't think his are the actions of a mad man. 

The world leaders (read: us) need to give him a way out that satisfies all parties enough and allows him to save face.  It wouldn't come without a cost, but at this point things aren't going back to the way we were.  I do not care to get into general politics at this time, but imo we have a role in all this, and largely by inaction, I think the US has handled this more than poorly. 
Agree 100%.

We have a role in all this- as NATO is essentially our little toy and the EU is a feckless sackless useless nut-riding bitch of the US. They do basically whatever we tell them to- Europe is our f**king bitch and NATO is our little toy. It's our thing. It's a military mafia- just a new form of imperialism- and the US is king shit- what we say goes.
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GopherRock

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #19324 on: October 04, 2022, 01:38:17 PM »
The only offramp that Putin is going to get is one that involves withdrawal from Crimea and going back to pre-2014 borders. There is ZERO appetite in Ukraine to trade territory for a cease fire. 
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Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #19325 on: October 04, 2022, 02:07:33 PM »
Quote from: GopherRock on October 04, 2022, 01:38:17 PM
The only offramp that Putin is going to get is one that involves withdrawal from Crimea and going back to pre-2014 borders. There is ZERO appetite in Ukraine to trade territory for a cease fire.
True, but that leaves an enormous gulf to be bridged in any settlement (which I think is inevitable at some point).  I once read that Russians are paranoid, but then they keep being invaded by the West (and at times East) over and over.

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longhorn320

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #19326 on: October 04, 2022, 02:09:56 PM »
when was the last time Russia was invaded in the last 75 years
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Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #19327 on: October 04, 2022, 02:13:03 PM »
They take a long view on the topic, like remember the Mongols?

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Mdot21

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #19328 on: October 04, 2022, 02:37:23 PM »
Quote from: Cincydawg on October 04, 2022, 02:13:03 PM
They take a long view on the topic, like remember the Mongols?
or the Germans. or the French. 

Americans are kinda lazy/stupid/lucky. We don't like to look at others points of views or histories, only our own. We've never really had to deal with an invasion or the devastation of war. Japs bombed Pearl Harbor when it wasn't even part of the US- and we only f**king NUKED them over that. Twice. Still the only country to ever actually use nuclear weapons by the way. 'MERICA BABY! 

Bin Laden hit the twin towers on 9/11 and the US has basically f**king obliterated all of the middle east after that- still bombing the f**k out of that region 20+ years later.
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Mdot21

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #19329 on: October 04, 2022, 02:41:07 PM »
Quote from: GopherRock on October 04, 2022, 01:38:17 PM
The only offramp that Putin is going to get is one that involves withdrawal from Crimea and going back to pre-2014 borders. There is ZERO appetite in Ukraine to trade territory for a cease fire.
Well Russia is never giving up Crimea so that's a moot point. Ukraine has only been able to hold out from negotiating a settlement because it has the US backing it. If the US would stop funding and arming Ukraine to the teeth and creating a situation where they are keeping a prolonged proxy war going- Ukraine would've been SOL and wouldn't have much of a choice now would they? 
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MrNubbz

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #19330 on: October 04, 2022, 02:45:57 PM »
Quote from: Cincydawg on October 04, 2022, 02:07:33 PM
I once read that Russians are paranoid, but then they keep being invaded by the West (and at times East) over and over.
Huh? When have they been "keep being invaded".I know they crossed the Chinese border what back in the 50's.The Afghanistan in '79 and Ukraine last winter.Prolly not a lot alive there that remember BlitzKreig when Dolf and the boys stopped for a spell .So NO
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Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #19331 on: October 04, 2022, 03:59:26 PM »
Their paranoia won't seem justified by us,  generally speaking, but I think it exists.  I think this is from a pretty good but older book by Hedley Smith.  Almost got his name right.



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Mdot21

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #19332 on: October 04, 2022, 04:28:55 PM »
Quote from: Cincydawg on October 04, 2022, 03:59:26 PM
Their paranoia won't seem justified by us,  generally speaking, but I think it exists.  I think this is from a pretty good but older book by Hedley Smith.  Almost got his name right.


the “it was a long time ago, forget about” argument that Americans try to always say about everything is a massively stupid one. 

do people really think Native American tribes will ever forget about being conquered and wiped out? Or Jews will just forget about the holocaust? Has anyone seen how aggressive and hostile Israel is to any nation who even hints at threats? They do not fk around even a little bit. 

America is basically brand new in the scheme of things, and it might be the only nation on the planet that has never been basically totally destroyed by war. We’ve been very lucky that we haven’t really been touched by war and it’s devastation on our shores.
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Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #19333 on: October 04, 2022, 04:34:18 PM »
I think I could name quite a few nations never "totally destroyed by war", and the US has been significantly damaged in a war, part of it anyway.

But I think it true that Russians at a core level are paranoids, and even paranoids have enemies.  That doesn't justify their attack on Ukraine in my view of course, but it speaks to why many Russians appeared to be supportive of that (granted their "news" was perhaps not all that credible).

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