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Topic: In other news ...
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NorthernOhioBuckeye · « **Reply #16772 on:** May 25, 2022, 01:02:50 PM »

Quote from: 847badgerfan on May 25, 2022, 12:51:14 PM

Color me corrected, however, how can one do a background check if there is no wait period?

How long did he have these guns? If it was longer than a few days, a background check would have outed him.

A Fed background check takes about 15-20 mins. I have been through several.

847badgerfan · « **Reply #16773 on:** May 25, 2022, 01:12:42 PM »

Clearly the check did not include looking at his social media.

NorthernOhioBuckeye · « **Reply #16774 on:** May 25, 2022, 01:13:48 PM »

Quote from: GopherRock on May 25, 2022, 11:23:15 AM

All of the above are parts of the problem. 120+ guns per 100 Americans is part of the problem. American gun culture (more specifically, those who view firearms as anything more than tools with specific rules for their use) is part of the problem.

Making potential counselors, teachers, therapists, and social workers go 6 figures in hock for masters degrees, then brag about paying them $38K a year is part of the problem.

Men who control, manipulate, and physically harm the women in their lives are part of the problem. There is ALWAYS misogyny involved.

And while I don't know everything that would go into a solution, I know some things that are NOT part of the solution.

More guns isn't part of the solution. We're seeing that now. Yesterday's shooter legally obtained his firearms.

https://twitter.com/KENS5/status/1529439423447834624?s=20&t=og3T0XasIVyx6-b5Q_J7RA

Hardening targets is performance art and isn't part of the solution, either. The Sandy Hook shooter shot his way in. Yesterday's shooter shot his way in. Previous shooters in Texas went after Wal-Mart, a flea market, and Fort Hood. Hell, we won't even pay for maintenance of the systems we have.

It's interesting that we're talking about wholesale, systemic change on the second anniversary of Minneapolis PD officer Derek Chauvin killing George Floyd in cold blood. Last fall, the voters of Minneapolis roundly rejected the best chance for a wholesale overhaul of the MPD, and re-elected a strong mayor to a second term.

You bring up some good points, but I would like to pose this question: Why are kids now shooting up schools and killing people? When I grew up, you never heard of a kid (under 20) killing anyone. Where I live, we had just as many guns then as we do now, so why were we not killing each other if the availability of guns is an issue?

When I was in High School, you could go into the parking lot and EVERY pickup truck had a gun rack filled with rifles. I had friends that would check traps on the way to school and in doing so would carry a handgun in their coat pocket. When they got to school, they would put their coat and gun in their locker. I had another friend that kept a rifle in his locker. Do you know how many gun shootings we had? ZERO.

We were not fascinated by guns, we were taught how to use and respect them. As a matter of fact, schools used to offer firearms training in school. You would have thought that if to many guns or the availability of guns was the issue, they would have had mass shootings every day back then. But as they didn't, perhaps that is not the problem.

And I disagree that more guns is not part of the solution. Had someone in that school been in possession of a rifle and had been proficient with it, they could have stopped this kid before he got to the door. After all, they only thing that stopped this bad guy with a gun was a good guy with a gun.

NorthernOhioBuckeye · « **Reply #16775 on:** May 25, 2022, 01:16:50 PM »

Quote from: 847badgerfan on May 25, 2022, 01:12:42 PM

Clearly the check did not include looking at his social media.

No they don't. They look through the FBI database for any recorded crimes that may preclude an individual from obtaining a gun.

The guy that shot up a church in Texas a couple of years ago had been dishonorably discharged from the Air Force for domestic violence. That should have prevented him from buying a gun but the Air Force neglected to report this infraction to the FBI on this discharge. Therefore, when he went to buy his rifle, he passed the background check.

BTW: Does anyone remember what stopped this guy that was shooting up a church in Texas? It was a neighbor with an AR15.

bayareabadger · « **Reply #16776 on:** May 25, 2022, 01:27:36 PM »

Quote from: 847badgerfan on May 25, 2022, 01:12:42 PM

Clearly the check did not include looking at his social media.

That’s true. But then you fall into a weird vortex of right and such.

Can you be denied a pretty core right based on exercise of another core right? It gets interesting legally.

Honestbuckeye · « **Reply #16777 on:** May 25, 2022, 01:30:08 PM »

Quote from: NorthernOhioBuckeye on May 25, 2022, 01:01:07 PM

If he purchased them legally then he had to have a background check. That is a Fed law.

An AR15 is no more an assault weapon than a single shot 22 rifle. I have an AR15, it is simply a Semi-Automatic rifle that looks scary because it is black. I have other rifles that are much more powerful and can fire every bit as fast as an AR15 but no one wants to worry about those.

One of my favorites is a Remington Model 742 30-06 semi automatic with 10 and 20 round magazines. If you know anything about firearms, an AR15 would not hold a candle to the damage that gun can do.

Oh, cool. He was just carrying a weapon designed to kill many rapidly. Just not the best one. 🥴

Drew4UTk · « **Reply #16778 on:** May 25, 2022, 01:49:11 PM »

it's not guns.
it's morality and mental health.
as stated, there are 120 guns known for every 100 American's.... how many of those guns do you hear from?
there is a Sig365 in my pocket at any given time. nobody knows it's there but me (and now you). it has lived a sheltered life and isn't a bit crazy.
me however, i may be a bit crazy- which is why i carry it. having the capacity to drastically escalate a situation ensures i walk away and if i can't find an opening to walk away i make one, even if it makes me look like a wimp in front of my family.... otherwise, i'd likely swing on jackalopes far more often. so... that weapon keeps everyone safe if for that reason. it also allows me an opportunity to defend myself in the case i am ever, however statistically unlikely, a violent encounter with an armed person demonstrating temper and intent and with the means to cause harm.

this kid entered a freakin' grade school- a calculated act knowing a high likelihood nobody was there capable of defending themselves. i mean, he didn't charge into a police precinct and do this, nor a police bar or local VFW... he didn't go after folks attending a gun show... he calculated and went for the softest target his evil mind could determine, and launched his evil attack.

evil is the underscore, here. we turned our backs on God and are surprised of the fallout? and for those who reject God, fine, however- the teachings of Christianity establish a moral code- a contract with society playing on the condition of men being noble savages and all that jazz- that kept shit like this from happening... when you don't have codes anymore, when it's a free-for-all is it is- this shit will happen.

and... go ahead and try to take my weapons... they are currently all legally and lawfully owned. the moment laws change that, they will be all unlawfully and illegally owned. why? because bad guys don't give a shit about laws. yeah, this one slipped through the cracks- and you can't tell me so don't even try the asshole who sold these weapons, apparently legally, to this kid didn't sense something was off.... that alone should have ended the prospect of a sale, and resulted in a tip to authorities. but just like all the crap we deal with daily going wonky in this nation, people guard themselves with 'laws', not expectations of a contract with society and certainly not God.....

Temp430 · « **Reply #16779 on:** May 25, 2022, 02:26:59 PM »

There is no nation wide database listing those with mental health issues. If there was it would be an administrative nightmare, prone to abuse, and would not contain those with no previous diagnosis. IMO a lot of the issue is just the times we live in. 50+ years ago gun violence was not so prevalent in US culture. The change has been gradual but large. Back then people were more up in arms about cigarette and liquor commercials on TV. There were no video games and no internet. The Godfather was about the most gun violent and graphic movie you could find back then and being R rated you didn't see it unless you were 18. And the mentally ill dangerous to themselves and others were not on the street.

Drew4UTk · « **Reply #16780 on:** May 25, 2022, 02:43:10 PM »

Quote from: Temp430 on May 25, 2022, 02:26:59 PM

There is no nation wide database listing those with mental health issues. If there was it would be an administrative nightmare, prone to abuse, and would not contain those with no previous diagnosis. IMO a lot of the issue is just the times we live in. 50+ years ago gun violence was not so prevalent in US culture. The change has been gradual but large. Back then people were more up in arms about cigarette and liquor commercials on TV. There were no video games and no internet. The Godfather was about the most gun violent and graphic movie you could find back then and being R rated you didn't see it unless you were 18. And the mentally ill dangerous to themselves and others were not on the street.

we aren't going to legislate ourselves out of this. databases be damned. lists and qualifications to be on those lists be damned. everyone looks to government to fix something, and that's a problem. a big one.

again i say, the man who sold that kid to rifles on two separate occasions had to have sensed something was not right.... he just wanted that cash and justified whatever his actions by deferring any responsibility to authorities and laws. those who knew this kid knew something was not right- beyond doubt. the girl he reached out to in cali certainly knew something but shucked personal responsibility because she could- as if her not asking for it makes it not hers...

everyone hides behind the law as shelter, and lives their life not in concern for what's morally right or wrong, but with what they can either do or not do as they elevate law in the custody of government to direct that... and that, y'all, is our greatest mistake. there is no way to fix this issue legally and the government certainly isn't the authority to do so... people are, and that is directed by what they'll put up with and what they won't- which is what 'law' and 'government' should follow instead of lead... but it doesn't anymore. people identify what they want to do and then plot to do it deciding only afterward "is it legal or do i have to do this quietly", instead of taking personal responsibility for themselves and saying as soon as a notion crosses their mind "that isn't right and i'm not going to be a part of it".

50 years ago we were still a predominately Christian nation. now we aren't. these circumstances aren't disassociated.

grillrat · « **Reply #16781 on:** May 25, 2022, 03:36:15 PM »

Quote from: NorthernOhioBuckeye on May 25, 2022, 01:13:48 PM

And I disagree that more guns is not part of the solution. Had someone in that school been in possession of a rifle and had been proficient with it, they could have stopped this kid before he got to the door. After all, they only thing that stopped this bad guy with a gun was a good guy with a gun.

I think the possibility of accidents / incidents in a school far outweighs the potential protection of arming the teachers or having a rent-a-cop.

As horrible as this situation is, on a per capita basis, this is still a relatively rare event. The number of times that a kid has gotten his hand on a gun at home that has resulted in an accidental shooting far outweighs the number of cases of school mass shootings. Having more guns in the schools just offers more opportunity for those chances of an untrained kid doing something stupid when the teacher / rent-a-cop has a momentary lapse and loses possession of his weapon.

Besides, didn't this lunatic have a shootout with cops before gaining access to the school? If trained law enforcement officers can't bring him down, do you really think that a teacher who is already sleep deprived from grading homework until midnight the day before will get the drop on him?

NorthernOhioBuckeye · « **Reply #16782 on:** May 25, 2022, 03:52:18 PM »

Quote from: grillrat on May 25, 2022, 03:36:15 PM

I think the possibility of accidents / incidents in a school far outweighs the potential protection of arming the teachers or having a rent-a-cop.

As horrible as this situation is, on a per capita basis, this is still a relatively rare event. The number of times that a kid has gotten his hand on a gun at home that has resulted in an accidental shooting far outweighs the number of cases of school mass shootings. Having more guns in the schools just offers more opportunity for those chances of an untrained kid doing something stupid when the teacher / rent-a-cop has a momentary lapse and loses possession of his weapon.

Besides, didn't this lunatic have a shootout with cops before gaining access to the school? If trained law enforcement officers can't bring him down, do you really think that a teacher who is already sleep deprived from grading homework until midnight the day before will get the drop on him?

Notice that I did not say teacher or student. But there are certain teachers that I would want to be armed at all times. In one of my posts, I mentioned a fried that would check traps before school, carrying a handgun and then leave it in his locker during the school day. That same kid grew up and is now a teacher in that same school. He is also a volunteer fireman in the township he lives in, works closely with law enforcement as he is also a member of the villages city council. I would trust him MORE than most LEO's to carry a firearm in school. As a matter of fact, when I was on our School Board, I seriously looked into what it would take to allow him to carry. (There were laws against it).

There are many of us that carry every day without incident. As Drew said in his post, it keeps a lot of us out of trouble as we are aware of the power to take life that we possess.

Also the fact of the matter is that we protect banks, stores, congress critters, office buildings, etc. with armed people, but for schools we posts signs that says "This is a Gun Free Zone." and expect that to protect our kids. That is insane.

OrangeAfroMan · « **Reply #16783 on:** May 25, 2022, 04:41:24 PM »

So the answer is.......more god and more guns?

This is madness.

Drew4UTk · « **Reply #16784 on:** May 25, 2022, 04:52:26 PM »

Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on May 25, 2022, 04:41:24 PM

So the answer is.......more god and more guns?

This is madness.

If that is what you've extracted, sure.

Its not God, persay, it's the contract with society within a nation that adheres to the rules of biblical text....... whether you believe that text or not doesn't matter, as in order for you not to be rejected by society you'd have to adopt the values they adhere to.... and while adhering to those rules, whether you believe in a god or not, people live better- safer- longer- and in better condition than without them.

More government overwatch isn't the answer for damn certain. The purpose for government has escaped that which benefits the people they govern and exists now to benefit those doing the governing... even the most noble initiatives are extorted and squandered. Thats what governing does.

People have to take personal responsibility instead of finding ways to blame and divert.... insofar as I can see it, in this particular and horrendous situation, the asshole who sold that kid two rifles on two separate days yet days apart is absolutely guilty of being an accomplice... I'll not be convinced he didn't know something effed up was happening- if not from the first purchase, damn certainly from the second... but he wanted that $$$, and he was covered LEGALLY... he didn't give a damn about morally..... and for folks who elevate the authority of state over God, that's okay.

OrangeAfroMan · « **Reply #16785 on:** May 25, 2022, 05:03:39 PM »

For those of you radical religious types who may still preach about pre-marital abstinence, guess what? The gun control debate is right up your alley! The most effective gun safety is to not own a gun!!! Isn't that something?!?
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Now, I know where your mind went, the moment you read that: he wants to take away all our guns!!
No, I don't.
I'm just pointing out your hypocricy between two issues....one that creates potential people some of the time and another than ends them.
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II am saying that maybe people don't need guns that can mow down 20 people.
Maybe people don't need fucking body armor.
If you need a rapid-firing gun with a large magazine and body armor because you're afraid of Nancy Pelosi's goons barging their way into your home, please stop reading this, slowly walk away, and find a cliff to walk off of. You're not sharing the same reality as the rest of us.
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Wow, that was dark, OAM! Why bring suicide into this? Well, I'm glad you asked. Did you know that guns are responsible for more suicides in our country than homicides? Fancy that! Go look at the list of 2022 mass shootings, and the 2 most common types you'll see are drive-bys and inter-family murder-suicides.
It's a lot harder to kill your whole family and then yourself without a gun.
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But please, let's dwell on your constitutional right to amp that possibly up to 11.
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Now, I'm a teacher. Apparently this guy just walked up into a random classroom. What the fuck am I going to do about it? Say you train me to be an expert marksman. Say I have a gun in a safe place (which could only be in some sort of safe and NOT in any easy-to-access spot). A random ass guy in body armor has suddnely entered my classroom while I'm kneeling down, helping a student with their writing.
WHAT IN THE FUCK AM I GOING TO DO? I'm the only adult in the room, I'm dead first. Sorry, this isn't a movie. The formica tables I'd be tossing up as barricades as I slow-motion run to my gun aren't stopping any bullets. Even if I'm carrying the gun on me, it's a pistol and this guy has an assault rifle, 6 of my students are murdered in front of me, and I'm supposed to go into action hero mode?!?
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Anyone who says teachers should be armed and trained lives in an outright fantasy. It's like a car accident - you don't see it coming. I'd say half the time another adult enters my classroom in an ordinary situation does so without me knowing.....BECAUSE I'M FOCUSING ON MY JOB.
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LIFE IS NOT AN ACTION MOVIE. GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ASS.

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Topic: In other news ...

NorthernOhioBuckeye

Re: In other news ...

847badgerfan

Re: In other news ...

NorthernOhioBuckeye

Re: In other news ...

NorthernOhioBuckeye

Re: In other news ...

bayareabadger

Re: In other news ...

Honestbuckeye

Re: In other news ...

Drew4UTk

Re: In other news ...

Temp430

Re: In other news ...

Drew4UTk

Re: In other news ...

grillrat

Re: In other news ...

NorthernOhioBuckeye

Re: In other news ...

OrangeAfroMan

Re: In other news ...

Drew4UTk

Re: In other news ...

OrangeAfroMan

Re: In other news ...