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Topic: In other news ...

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Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #15638 on: April 13, 2022, 08:35:02 AM »
I despised history in school, even in college.  I now really enjoy it, it's most of my reading.  It's amazing such an interesting subject can be taught so poorly I think, and so errantly in many cases.  I've been surprised how much I was taught that simply is misleading or overly simplified or completely omitted.

Of course, it was common in HS for coaches to be teaching history.

Brutus Buckeye

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #15639 on: April 13, 2022, 08:47:36 AM »
You do realize that the American Army used the same formations and tactics as Washington and many of the other American leaders were trained by the British. Also, only about 4% of Americans that identified as Patriots, actively fought against the British.

My point is that don't EVER discount citizens armed with small arms, defending their homes and families. A bunch of goat herders in Afghanistan pushed the Russian army out and made life miserable for the US troops.

The United States has over 100 million gun owners with over 2 TRILLION rounds of ammunition. If 4% of them actively fought, that would be an army of 4 Million. Also take into account that a good number of our active military would NOT actively fight in a conflict that required that they attack fellow Americans.

The other thing to take into account is that in a conflict between the US Armed forces and the American people, the armed forces would certainly face many logisitcal issues. Who do you think supplies the armed forces with weapons, fuel, food, clothing and many other essential items? The Army would never be able to maintain supply lines and hold real estate. They would get slaughtered.
Well yeah, the Afghans aren't concerned about war crimes and what not. Anything goes. We on the other hand have to do things by the book. It is a losing recipe. We are the Brits on that situation. It would be like a fight where one person adheres to competitive fighting rules while the other is free to gouge eyes and kick groins and snap knees.
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MrNubbz

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #15640 on: April 13, 2022, 09:45:40 AM »

This is largely a fable of mistaught American history
.  The major battles in the WoI were fought using British tactics and arms.  The British did have to content with partisans and asymmetric warfare, which is common when one side has overwhelming power.  The British won a lot of battles in the WoI, just not the last one, which is to a large degree due to help from the French.
No it's not,I've read it,saw it on the History Channel/PBS segments. There are paintings/drawings from actual participants of the War that they clearly show the Minute Men recessed in tree lines popping Redcoats in their ridiculous formations out in the open. Of course even those toffee nosed bastards would break and run when they realised they were getting filleted and upstarts weren't folding like before. The Minute Men blended many tactics,remember not  everyone was from England - Count Pulaski,Marquis de Lafayette,Baron Von Stueben - gotta love those names,no wonder they won the fookin' war.Also some guy named Washington was with General Braddock when he got whacked in the French & Indian Wars. No doubt George tooks some notes on concealment/ambush tactics. Colonists weren't daft and going to play by the silly rules laid out by the Aristocratic A-holes that benefitted them and the Hessians pressed into service.

 Evidently the Hessians had no axe to grind, the German princes sold their subjects into the King's service as the soldiers didn't recieve a dime.So it didn't take much coercing for them to bolt allegiance. I can't find the source but evidently part of Washington's command were Pennslvannia Dutch who encouraged the colonials on the Christmas attack at Trenton.As amongst the British types(English,Scottish,Irish,Welsh,Cornish) Christmas was more of a somber/austere occasion at that time.Where as the Tuetonic types (Germans,Swiss,Danish,Austrian) there was more merry making,the Christmas Tree,singing,Schnapps & Suds. They were betting the Gerries maybe sleeping it off - and it was recorded that some may have been.They certainly were surprised none the less. Supposedly Johann Rall a Hessian commander killed at the Battle was concerned about the forward exposed position of the Garrison at Trenton but high command didn't move them. Gosh the higher ups weren't very bright back then either

Fun Fact Cindy on her mother side traces her lineage back to a Hessian named Conrad Auble,who was captured,swore allegiance switched sides and recieved I don't know how many Acres. I heard his name mentioned on a PBS Special.Out of 13,000 Hessians 5,500 stayed and became Americans. Like many soldiers many died of disease/wound infections. The rest either were killed or went back. 

It appeared between the English/French/Irish/Polish/Scots/Africans/Swiss-Germans - Washington recruited rather well.

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Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #15641 on: April 13, 2022, 09:48:04 AM »
The MAJOR BATTLES were fought using traditional line of battle on both sides.  Some minor scrapes were not because one side out numbered the other by a large margin.  

MrNubbz

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #15642 on: April 13, 2022, 09:48:51 AM »
I despised history in school, even in college. 
Um no,those sources are solid, while they did line up like that periodically and that makes for good paintings that is nonsense. So the men there who drew or painted depictions were mistaken? I suppose you think all of Minute men wore Blue coats too. One of the few subjects i found great interest in
Suburbia:Where they tear out the trees & then name streets after them.

Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #15643 on: April 13, 2022, 09:52:45 AM »
Brandywine Battle Facts and Summary | American Battlefield Trust (battlefields.org)

On September 11, 1777, General George Washington was determined to prevent the British from capturing the American seat of government, Philadelphia. Taking up positions along Brandywine Creek, Washington mistakenly believed that his army blocked all fords across the Brandywine.
Opposing Washington was Sir William Howe and an army of 15,500 British Regulars and Hessian troops. Hidden by heavy fog, the British moved into position. General Wilhelm von Kynphausen was ordered to demonstrate against the Americans’ front at Chadds Ford, while the bulk of Howe’s forces crossed the Brandywine further upstream.
The battle had been raging for hours by the time Howe's force appeared undetected on the Continental right flank. Washington dispatched troops under General John Sullivan and William Alexander, “Lord Stirling,” to shore up his right flank. However, despite putting up a stiff resistance, the Continentals were eventually overrun by Howe’s men.
Simultaneously, Knyphausen’s troops hit the American units that remained near the Quaker meeting house at Chadds Ford. Washington’s line collapsed.
To prevent the defeat turning into disaster Washington ordered Nathanael Greene’s division to act as a rear-guard so that the Continental Army could escape to the northeast. Greene’s brave men counterattacked, going toe-to-toe with British along the crest of Birmingham Hill. When night fell, the remaining Americans fell back in an orderly retreat, led in part by the Marquis de Lafayette. Although wounded, the charismatic young Frenchman remained on the field to ensure an organized withdrawal.
The crushing defeat allowed the British to occupy Philadelphia, but the bulk of the Continental army survived to fight another day.



MrNubbz

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #15644 on: April 13, 2022, 10:02:03 AM »
FFS that's one battle. The colonials adjusted after those debacles,You should know this being from the south read about the battle of Cowpens followed up by Kings Mountain - fought in the Carolina's. They had to use the tools at their disposal and Guerilla tactics were one of them. The Colonials showed formation broke fell back as the British were engulfed by unseen forces in the woods and behind hills. If Banastre Tarlton or Patrick Ferguson were here they would tell you are mistaken. Hell at York town they weren't in formation firing at each other behind ramparts.Again men there painted these scenes,I could agree with you then we'd both be wrong.
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Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #15645 on: April 13, 2022, 10:12:01 AM »
I will stand by my comment about major battles.


bayareabadger

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #15646 on: April 13, 2022, 10:16:40 AM »
Hide in their safe spaces?

I've got about 4K rounds at the ready. The eyes are still great at long distances too. Reading... not so much.
It always comes back to making the gun stuff weird. Why does it always do that?

Anyway. The answer to the first question is complicated because it depends the nature of the imaginary conflict. The lines would be extremely unclear if there were a case of arms citizens rising up. But fortunately, this imaginary conflict is very, very likely a fantasy for those who fashion themselves as braves.

-Folks with guns tend to identify strongly with the people they'd be shooting in that scenario. 
-A lot of the folks they'd be shooting identify strongly with them, and might well be forsaking the government they'd likely be representing
-Americans often don't care about constitutional rights, and the two groups above at times aggressively attack them (some are intended as road blocks for our protectors, so that makes sense), so very few folks are gonna stand tall "for the constitution" (they might stand tall for themselves, but tell you it's for the constitution)
-If you did have a case where armed folks were in revolt, it would likely be backing the military in some kind of coup, and those tend to be anti-democratic, a thing we very much don't want. 

The more interesting thing is that despite our cos-play of being super polarized, we are to enough of a degree intermingled, so we're all mostly stuck together. Probably a good thing, even if it irks people. 

Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #15647 on: April 13, 2022, 10:32:43 AM »
I'm not overly concerned about quartering of troops these days.

bayareabadger

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #15648 on: April 13, 2022, 10:38:37 AM »
I'm not overly concerned about quartering of troops these days.
That's good. I'm also imagining a world in which quartering troops was the thing that pushed folks over the edge. That would be something.

MrNubbz

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #15649 on: April 13, 2022, 11:18:04 AM »
I will stand by my comment about major battles.


Thank God the colonials stood behind trees or we're not commenting ;D
Suburbia:Where they tear out the trees & then name streets after them.

MrNubbz

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #15650 on: April 13, 2022, 11:23:11 AM »
-If you did have a case where armed folks were in revolt, it would likely be backing the military in some kind of coup, and those tend to be anti-democratic, a thing we very much don't want.
Problem is it wouldn't really be anti-democratic as both parties are so far removed from public service that the government once provided. Now both are dripping with guilt for tending to their own tills
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bayareabadger

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #15651 on: April 13, 2022, 11:56:30 AM »
Problem is it wouldn't really be anti-democratic as both parties are so far removed from public service that the government once provided. Now both are dripping with guilt for tending to their own tills
That’s an issue to be solved at the ballot box.

 

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