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I find the idea of “dependence” in this context interesting. Mostly because I don’t totally know how real it is. Like, the price of “independence” would be enormous, with some spiraling impacts on cost of living, etc.

I think the bigger argument is that nations and economies should be interdependent, whereas China's policies do not allow for that. 

The US is not dependent on Europe, and Europe is not dependent on the US, nor is either side independent of each other; we are interdependent. 

IMHO China views the world through a mercantilist lens; whoever produces and exports the most wins. So their goal is not interdependence. Their goal is to build everything we need and sell it to us, and build everything they need and sell it domestically, and not let anyone else sell TO them. They want to be independent of anyone else, and they want everyone else to be dependent on them. They believe that is the path to power. 

I know it's an unpopular opinion here, but I believe they've committed a fundamental error in not seeking interdependence. Largely for the reason 94 states--China is no longer really a low cost country (LCC). If they had spent the last 3 decades seeking interdependence, their market would be of critical importance to multinational companies and brands. But they don't let us sell there, so their market is closed. So what will stop us from moving production to other lower-cost nations and withdrawing from China as a market entirely? Nothing. Economic ties are easier to break when you're not interdependent.

China has spent 30 years subsidizing worldwide consumption by mistreating their own people, polluting their own environment, manipulating their currency to keep it weak. Now that they're no longer considered an LCC, they might see companies pulling out, and I'm not sure they've bootstrapped their own economy where they can be competitive without resorting to the tactics they've been using 30 years. 

China thought they were the hot young lady marrying the old fogey, expecting us to die soon, and thought they'd get a windfall inheritance. But we're starting to reach a point where we're thinking about divorce, leaving her nothing, because another LCC PYT has caught our eye.

Part of Florida IS in the Central timezone.  You could move up to the Redneck Riviera if it's all that important to you...

It would be the opposite. Florida would move to Atlantic Time, not Central Time.

I know. I would prefer to be in the Central down here.

Out of curiosity, why?

I think I might understand... Living in Atlanta for 2 years, it seemed to stay light MUCH later in the evening than Chicago or SoCal. I attribute that to Atlanta being in the very far western part of the Eastern Time Zone, as well as being more south than NY/Boston/Philly/Etc... I enjoyed that, personally. That's actually the reason that I like the idea of shifting every time zone one hour east--get the sun going down later (on the clock) here in SoCal.

I also know that primetime TV schedules tended to sometimes favor Central rather than Eastern, unless you wanted to be a serious night owl. So to the extent that matters (and maybe it does, maybe it doesn't in our streaming/DVR/timeshifted world), I could see it...

But I'm wondering what your thoughts are.

I’m not gonna answer for Badge, but having lived in three time zones, I want my earlier seeming sports.

I’m not gonna answer for Badge, but having lived in three time zones, I want my earlier seeming sports.

There is that.


Plus, I'm still working and those rat bastage emplpyees/partners up North call me up until 7PM EDT.

I'm gonna start calling THEM at 7AM EDT and see how they like it.

Are you talking about Europe/Russia dependence for energy, or the US/China dependence for all the other stuff?

If you're talking about the US, I'll point out that China is no longer even considered the lowest-cost manufacturing nation for the production of many of the goods that we've moved there over the past couple of decades. There are several other nations that can produce a lot of the same products at similar or lower cost, without the threat and the baggage of the CCP.

A shift couldn't happen overnight, but a slow move of critical manufacturing and supply chain from China to other low-cost nations, would not result in some kind of catastrophic impact to cost of living in the USA.

Both.

As in, what does it mean to be “independent”? Do we insulate ourselves from these things, at a price to the average citizen, so we don’t owe anyone anything?

as Brad pointed out, this massive nation run by crazy people was going to subsidize the world in large part to feel good about itself. And shoot, that gravy train might be running out. Should we have avoided that?

(sorry, writing at work, so might not be fleshing things out fully)

What would that be, just permanently setting your clocks 60 years back?

This sounds like something the Midwest would be into, to be honest.