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Topic: In other news ...

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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #2702 on: February 16, 2021, 05:37:46 PM »
Quote from: Cincydawg on February 16, 2021, 03:30:54 PM
It's obvious a 50 battery will reach full charge faster than a 100 battery.  I provided links on that.  It's not half the time, I get that, not my point at all.

Alphabet continues to show data irrelevant to my core point.
Here's what your link said:

Empty-to-full time to charge with different chargepoint speeds:

[th]Vehicle[/th]
[th]Empty to full charging time***[/th]
ModelBatteryPod Point
Confidence Range*		3.7kW slow7kW fast22kW fast43-50kW rapid150kW rapid
Nissan LEAF (2018)40kWh143 miles11 hrs6 hrs6 hrs1 hrCan't charge on this kind of charger
Tesla Model S (2019)**75kWh238 miles21 hrs11 hrs5 hrs2 hrs<1 hr
Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV (2018)13.8kWh24 miles4 hrs4 hrs4 hrs40 minsCan't charge on this kind of charger

If you are limited by the power output of your charging station, then yes your charge time is proportional to your battery capacity.

What I've been telling you is that if you're not limited by the output of the charging station, then a larger battery has a higher charge rate.

As long as you're not limited by the output of the charging station, a 50 kWh battery and a 100 kWh battery, if they're made up of the same core cells and module configutation, should both reach full charge at or very close to the same time. 
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #2703 on: February 16, 2021, 05:55:31 PM »
Finally found a chart that shows it...

It's based on data taken from real-world tests of various models when plugged into Superchargers, as shown in YouTube videos of the actual charging as reported by the car. This is the best apples-to-apples because it's all Tesla Model S/X which use similar battery chemistries and cells. 

Time to full charge is not dependent on battery size. 

https://forums.tesla.com/discussion/48062/model-s-supercharging-times-compared-s60-s70d-s85-p85d-s85d

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Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #2704 on: February 17, 2021, 05:21:31 AM »
I agree the larger battery has a faster charge rate, that isn't my point. 

I showed data showing my point.  I think my point is correct.
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FearlessF

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #2705 on: February 17, 2021, 08:38:10 AM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on February 16, 2021, 04:41:50 PM
That snake pic is one big plus for living north of I-4 rather than south of it.  The scariest thing I ever saw growing up was a behemoth, prehistoric alligator snapping turtle. 

It will remove your digits if you mess with it. 
we have snappin turtles up here
size of garbage can lids
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MrNubbz

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #2706 on: February 17, 2021, 09:24:08 AM »
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #2707 on: February 17, 2021, 10:01:53 AM »
Quote from: Cincydawg on February 17, 2021, 05:21:31 AM
I agree the larger battery has a faster charge rate, that isn't my point.

I showed data showing my point.  I think my point is correct.
Okay, let's try this another way...

Charger A - holds 4x AA batteries:


Charger B - holds 8x AA batteries:



Charger C - holds 16x AA batteries:



So let's think about some charging scenarios. For the purposes of the below scenarios, every single AA battery used in the below scenarios are 100% identical and empty of charge.

  • Charger A with 1 battery
  • Charger B with 1 battery
  • Charger C with 1 battery
  • Charger A with 4 batteries
  • Charger B with 4 batteries
  • Charger C with 4 batteries
  • Charger B with 8 batteries
  • Charger C with 8 batteries
  • Charger C with 16 batteries

Every individual AA cell is identical. I postulate to you that the charging times of every scenario 1-9, for however many batteries are in the chargers to all go empty to full, in the above scenarios are the same. 


Would you agree?
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Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #2708 on: February 17, 2021, 10:35:44 AM »
I may be stubborn, dumb, and slow, but I finally get it.  A 5 L bucket fills faster than a 10 L bucket IFF the hose is small, but if the hose provides 100 L per second, there is minimal difference.

The both fill in a fraction of a second.

So only if the hose is slow is there a difference.

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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #2709 on: February 17, 2021, 10:43:30 AM »
I haven't seen this here, so forgive me if it's been touched on - but what would the battery-producers want to happen?  What system would net them the most money, long-term?  
Charging stations using "the grid" to recharge their batteries, or their batteries populating every existing gas station across the country, being switched out every few hundred miles?  
This being a new-ish tech and has yet be become "the way," they have a say in how things progress, no?
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #2710 on: February 17, 2021, 10:48:33 AM »
Quote from: Cincydawg on February 17, 2021, 10:35:44 AM
I may be stubborn, dumb, and slow, but I finally get it.  A 5 L bucket fills faster than a 10 L bucket IFF the hose is small, but if the hose provides 100 L per second, there is minimal difference.

The both fill in a fraction of a second.

So only if the hose is slow is there a difference.
Almost...

The key to the analogy is that the 100 kWh battery is NOT a 10 gal bucket while the 50 kWh battery is a 5 gal bucket... It's that the 100 kWh battery is already (2) 5 gal buckets. So the amount of time it takes to fill (2) 5 gal buckets is the same as the time it takes to fill (1) 5 gal bucket as long as it's done in parallel by splitting the hose into two outlets. You're filling at twice the rate but it takes the same time.

Or more accurately, the 100 kWh battery is (5000) 100 cc vials and the 50 kWh battery is (2500) 100 cc vials. If the flow rate is limited at the vial level, having double the number will increase the aggregate flow rate, but not increase or decrease the aggregate fill time. 

BEV battery packs are basically just like a couple thousand AA batteries all wired up in parallel and each battery has its own maximum flow rate. As long as the "hose" is large enough, the amount of time it takes to charge several thousand batteries is the same amount of time it takes to charge one battery. 
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Cincydawg

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #2711 on: February 17, 2021, 11:23:01 AM »
My analogies have to be ultra simple.

I'm sure battery producers would like a huge market, but so would charging stations.  The improvements in charging, to me, look impressive and not really problematic longer term, if you use a fire hose.
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #2712 on: February 17, 2021, 12:25:31 PM »
Quote from: Cincydawg on February 17, 2021, 11:23:01 AM
My analogies have to be ultra simple.

I'm sure battery producers would like a huge market, but so would charging stations.  The improvements in charging, to me, look impressive and not really problematic longer term, if you use a fire hose.
I think the AA battery charger is the best analogy.

Here are the batteries used in the Tesla Model S/X (left) and used in the Model 3/Y (right).



Nobody really thinks of a BEV battery pack being full of thousands of little cylindrical batteries that look like a AA (but a bit bigger), but that's reality.

Hence the only difference between a 60 kWh battery pack and a 100 kWh battery pack is not that the batteries are larger, but that there are more of them.

Each individual battery is charge rate limited, and identical across batteries. The maximum charge RATE (measured in kW) of a 100 kWh battery pack is higher than a 60 kWh battery pack because there are more cells, but the maximum charge rate of each cell is the same. Each individual battery will reach its maximum charge at roughly the same time, if each individual battery is being charged to the maximum charge rate that it will accept.

So a 60 kWh battery pack and a 100 kWh battery pack will take the same time to charge AS LONG AS the charger power is high enough to achieve the maximum flow rate of a battery pack with 66% more batteries within it.

If you have a big hose, they'll charge in the same amount of time. But if you have a tiny hose, then the 100 kWh pack will take longer to fill than the 60 kWh. 

tl;dr -- The size of your hose matters ;-)
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #2713 on: February 17, 2021, 02:11:06 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on February 17, 2021, 10:43:30 AM
I haven't seen this here, so forgive me if it's been touched on - but what would the battery-producers want to happen?  What system would net them the most money, long-term? 
Charging stations using "the grid" to recharge their batteries, or their batteries populating every existing gas station across the country, being switched out every few hundred miles? 
This being a new-ish tech and has yet be become "the way," they have a say in how things progress, no?
To an extent they don't really have much say, no.

  • The battery producers can't tell the car companies whether they have to build batteries into the car as a static part or whether they have to make them replaceable modules. 
  • To some extent (such as with Tesla), the battery producers ARE the car companies. There may be a push to become vertically integrated in battery production for BEVs because it's such a high proportion of the car's Bill of Materials [BOM] cost. Even if it doesn't make commercial sense for an automaker to be fully vertically integrated, two might form a joint venture on the battery side so they can share that technology even if they're competitors elsehwere. (There's precedence for this in my industry--Intel and Micron previously had a joint venture in NAND and DRAM, and my company and Kioxia currently have a joint venture in NAND, despite that all 4 of those companies are competitors in the market). 
  • Even if the battery vendors want things to be done one way, if the technical hurdles of battery swap technology simply don't make technical sense, and charger technology continues to improve, then battery swaps fail the market test.

To be honest, I think we've brought up and you haven't (that I've seen) acknowledged my point about the additional structural rigidity and other engineering challenges associated with battery swaps. 

I know it seems like it's easy technically and logistically--but I suspect it's FAR more complex than you are suggesting. Heck, based on just the top-level issues I can envision, I would almost say I *know* it's far more complex than you're suggesting. 

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MrNubbz

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #2714 on: February 17, 2021, 02:24:49 PM »
Quote from: FearlessF on February 17, 2021, 08:38:10 AM
we have snappin turtles up here
size of garbage can lids
Make some soup - delicious
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847badgerfan

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Re: In other news ...
« Reply #2715 on: February 17, 2021, 03:36:39 PM »
Just ordered this one.

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U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!
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