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Topic: In other news (apolitical thread)...

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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news (apolitical thread)...
« Reply #1526 on: June 04, 2025, 11:45:30 AM »
Sierra Nevada had been making hoppy ales since 1980.  And I bring it up, because it was the first West Coast import ale you could find in Texas, and it formed the prototypical ideal of what a West Coast beer was going to be like.  Sure, Sierra Nevada Pale Ale wasn't as brutally over-hopped and bitter as beers that followed it, but neither was Arrogant Bastard.  Still, both were far more over-hopped than the typical domestics or imports available at the time.  Anything using c-hops was going to have that characteristic.
Of course there's a lot of nuance to the history.  

SNPA isn't even an IPA, by alcohol content or by IBUs. But its tradition was different. The use of crystal malts to provide sweetness to balance the hops was the characteristic that defined American Pale Ale. The amber hues are something you won't find in a modern "West Coast IPA". The characteristic Cascade hop character, providing both bitterness and aroma, I'll agree was completely different than most of what you'd see at the time. And I'll agree that to an extent, it was ONE of the beers that kicked off the American (and West Coast) trend towards a lot of hops. But in SNPA, the malt character is as big a part of the story as the hops.

Even for their bigger beer, Bigfoot Ale, they assuredly had plenty of hops in there, but they amped up the sweetness to, into what's called a barleywine. 

But that doesn't mean that what happened later was "typical" just because SNPA existed and was popular. 

The tradition down in San Diego, which IMHO is what ends up defining the "West Coast IPA", is different. They not only amped up the hops, but they dialed back the malt to be the bare minimum needed to support the hops. The level of crystal malt in SNPA won't be found in anything labeled "West Coast IPA" today. The beers are much more pale, dry, and crisp. The beers are much more bitter. The level of dry-hopping for aroma is much more pronounced. West Coast IPAs are not about malt and hops--they're about hops. You can of course screw them up if you don't get enough of a malt foundation to support the beer--but the malt is supposed to be secondary to the hops. 

And to an extent, the same was true with Arrogant Bastard. It was a very unique beer. Some people might have thought the intent was to be similar to a barleywine with the darker color, higher ABV, and hoppiness, but it sure as hell didn't drink like one. Much like the West Coast IPA, malt wasn't intended to bring in much sweetness in that beer. You certainly get the malt flavor coming through, but it intentionally drinks much more "dry" than a barleywine. 

The mere existence of SNPA as a "hoppy West Coast ale" prior to some of these beers doesn't change the fact that many of them were different and groundbreaking in their own way.

FearlessF

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Re: In other news (apolitical thread)...
« Reply #1527 on: June 04, 2025, 11:50:34 AM »
it was typical in Texas so............ it was typical
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

MikeDeTiger

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Re: In other news (apolitical thread)...
« Reply #1528 on: June 04, 2025, 11:50:58 AM »
The beer thread is over there --> Big12 board

Cincydawg

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Re: In other news (apolitical thread)...
« Reply #1529 on: June 04, 2025, 11:51:41 AM »
Every thread, at its core, is a beer thread.

utee94

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Re: In other news (apolitical thread)...
« Reply #1530 on: June 04, 2025, 11:52:22 AM »
Of course there's a lot of nuance to the history. 

SNPA isn't even an IPA, by alcohol content or by IBUs. But its tradition was different. The use of crystal malts to provide sweetness to balance the hops was the characteristic that defined American Pale Ale. The amber hues are something you won't find in a modern "West Coast IPA". The characteristic Cascade hop character, providing both bitterness and aroma, I'll agree was completely different than most of what you'd see at the time. And I'll agree that to an extent, it was ONE of the beers that kicked off the American (and West Coast) trend towards a lot of hops. But in SNPA, the malt character is as big a part of the story as the hops.

Even for their bigger beer, Bigfoot Ale, they assuredly had plenty of hops in there, but they amped up the sweetness to, into what's called a barleywine.

But that doesn't mean that what happened later was "typical" just because SNPA existed and was popular.

The tradition down in San Diego, which IMHO is what ends up defining the "West Coast IPA", is different. They not only amped up the hops, but they dialed back the malt to be the bare minimum needed to support the hops. The level of crystal malt in SNPA won't be found in anything labeled "West Coast IPA" today. The beers are much more pale, dry, and crisp. The beers are much more bitter. The level of dry-hopping for aroma is much more pronounced. West Coast IPAs are not about malt and hops--they're about hops. You can of course screw them up if you don't get enough of a malt foundation to support the beer--but the malt is supposed to be secondary to the hops.

And to an extent, the same was true with Arrogant Bastard. It was a very unique beer. Some people might have thought the intent was to be similar to a barleywine with the darker color, higher ABV, and hoppiness, but it sure as hell didn't drink like one. Much like the West Coast IPA, malt wasn't intended to bring in much sweetness in that beer. You certainly get the malt flavor coming through, but it intentionally drinks much more "dry" than a barleywine.

The mere existence of SNPA as a "hoppy West Coast ale" prior to some of these beers doesn't change the fact that many of them were different and groundbreaking in their own way.
As I clarified in my second paragraph, these "differences" were really only apparent to the hops/bitter fanbois.  People with more balanced tastes weren't going to like ANY of them.  The race to out-bitter one another was of no interest to those of us who didn't like the bitter hops to begin with.

utee94

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Re: In other news (apolitical thread)...
« Reply #1531 on: June 04, 2025, 11:53:40 AM »
it was typical in Texas so............ it was typical
Texas, Minnesota, Florida, New Mexico, and every other place not named California that I traveled to between about 1992 and 1999.

Cincydawg

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Re: In other news (apolitical thread)...
« Reply #1532 on: June 04, 2025, 11:56:46 AM »
I still like Sam Adams just fine, I preferred their Ale, which seems to have disappeared.

But their lager is fine for me.

Those are my two favorite kinds of beer.

utee94

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Re: In other news (apolitical thread)...
« Reply #1533 on: June 04, 2025, 12:09:12 PM »
Sam Adams has some seasonals that I like.

For a long time it was not unusual for Sam Adams Boston Lager to be the only non-Bud/Miller/Coors beer at airport bars.  That was always disappointing to me.  I'd just drink a gin and tonic or something when that was the case.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: In other news (apolitical thread)...
« Reply #1534 on: June 04, 2025, 12:35:48 PM »
Those are my two favorite kinds of beer.
My favorite kind of beer is free.  

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: In other news (apolitical thread)...
« Reply #1535 on: June 04, 2025, 12:50:48 PM »
I agree, I saw the same thing with zinfandels, every wine maker tried to "top the previous alcohol" levels, some were over 18%.  It was a game to make unbalanced "wines".

Fads.  We saw the same thing with chardonnay, how buttery and oaky could they get?
As I clarified in my second paragraph, these "differences" were really only apparent to the hops/bitter fanbois.  People with more balanced tastes weren't going to like ANY of them.  The race to out-bitter one another was of no interest to those of us who didn't like the bitter hops to begin with.
Getting to something more general, it seems to me that bitterness is far less of a "fad" than some other things. Obviously in beer that's IPA... But who would have EVERY thought that crushingly bitter beer would resonate the way it does? It seems to certainly not be a fad. 

And IMHO what we're seeing more widely is a societal pivot away from sweet and more towards bitter. It feels--to me anyway--that we're seeing a resurgence of bitterness. Pushing towards dark chocolate, robust coffee, use of bitter ingredients like certain greens in salad (as opposed to iceberg lettuce), more bitter vegetables like Brussels sprouts, bigger ingredients like lemon zest, etc...

I think there are some people who may just NOT like bitterness at all--I suspect that @utee94 might be one. Just as there are some people who do NOT like spicy food at all. 

But are we seeing more widespread tolerance to--and even affinity for--bitterness?

FearlessF

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Re: In other news (apolitical thread)...
« Reply #1536 on: June 04, 2025, 12:52:46 PM »
I enjoy the bitterness of Guinness 
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Gigem

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Re: In other news (apolitical thread)...
« Reply #1537 on: June 04, 2025, 12:54:11 PM »
Today I learned....


How Uncultured I am.  

But, I really already knew this.  I just drink american macro-swill beer.  

Cincydawg

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Re: In other news (apolitical thread)...
« Reply #1538 on: June 04, 2025, 12:55:28 PM »
I'd call vying for more and more bitterness is a fad.  Maybe it sticks for a while, maybe a few folks pretend to like it.  To me, it's a fad even if it persists for years.

I enjoy balanced IPAs just fine, but not the silly ones.  I enjoy a decent zinfandel, but not the silly ones.  I view the folks who try and find more and more bitter IPAs as "fadish", braggarts, just folks who claim to like hotter and hotter peppers, it's to them some mark of, well, faddishness, uniqueness, they claim to "LIKE" super hot peppers when in reality they don't, except they think it makes them look special.

Fad.

utee94

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Re: In other news (apolitical thread)...
« Reply #1539 on: June 04, 2025, 01:10:45 PM »
Getting to something more general, it seems to me that bitterness is far less of a "fad" than some other things. Obviously in beer that's IPA... But who would have EVERY thought that crushingly bitter beer would resonate the way it does? It seems to certainly not be a fad.

And IMHO what we're seeing more widely is a societal pivot away from sweet and more towards bitter. It feels--to me anyway--that we're seeing a resurgence of bitterness. Pushing towards dark chocolate, robust coffee, use of bitter ingredients like certain greens in salad (as opposed to iceberg lettuce), more bitter vegetables like Brussels sprouts, bigger ingredients like lemon zest, etc...

I think there are some people who may just NOT like bitterness at all--I suspect that @utee94 might be one. Just as there are some people who do NOT like spicy food at all.

But are we seeing more widespread tolerance to--and even affinity for--bitterness?
It's an interesting question.  And I'll comment that I definitely don't think IPAs are a fad.


Sticking specifically to the area of packaged alcoholic beverages though, are we REALLY seeing a move toward bitter?  The IPA certainly seems to have a stronghold within the American craft beer industry, and although I'm seeing a little bit of a move toward more European styles, compared to 10-20 years ago, IPA still dominates this segment.

But craft beer isn't the fastest growing segment within this market.  White Claw style seltzers and ciders plus other spirit-based "ready to drink" beverages, are currently the big movers and shakers.  And although some of these have "lemon" or "lime" flavors, I don't consider any of them to be particularly "bitter."  Not in the way that American IPAs are.  Most of them range from neutral to very, very sweet.

And then of course the dominant packaged alcoholic beverages are still the macro-beers, none of which would be considered "bitter" for the purposes of this discussion, either.

So is "bitter" actually growing in this market?  Or is it just a perception due to the ubiquitous nature of IPAs at the types of places you and I like to go drink?

 

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