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Topic: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)

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CWSooner

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #168 on: April 07, 2020, 05:37:46 PM »
My partial solution to political ads is that a campaign cannot mention the name of ANYONE but the candidate(s) on their ticket, no other names.

Any PAC cannot mention ANY names of anyone in office.  This might pass muster.
Strikes me as a freedom-of-speech issue.
Other Western countries don't have this "problem" because they don't have freedom of speech, press, etc.  Government may censor these things for "the common good."
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CWSooner

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #169 on: April 07, 2020, 05:39:42 PM »
I don't think national politicians get "paid off" directly because of the risk, and they are more sophisticated in how they do it.  And of course many of them were wealthy before they got there.

Influence is often more important to them than just money.  And of course anyone with access to them -cousins, uncles, sons, etc. - are going to attract "attention". 

I think mayors in general are more obviously corrupt, they put Uncle Joe on the Water Board at $300,000 a year etc.
I think "obviously" is the key word.  It's easier to see the corruption in a mayor than in some national official.
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SFBadger96

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #170 on: April 07, 2020, 05:40:23 PM »
As I'm sure I've said before, I'm married to a politician. A local one, but one who will seek higher office. She isn't paid beyond a tiny stipend, so what she does is essentially volunteer work. Her next campaign will be for a paid position, but it isn't a lot of money, no matter what elected office you win. Most people who go into politics are wealthy already. We are comfortable, certainly, but not wealthy enough to own a second/vacation home, a boat, or any such thing. Like most, we worry about how we will pay for college, but unlike most, we are relatively certain we can pull it off without our children going into debt. Becoming and staying a politician is much easier for people who are independently wealthy, so--unsurprisingly--most people who are politicians are independently wealthy.

Sitting on the sidelines while constituents savage your spouse because she made a decision they disagree with is fascinating (and difficult). Anytime an elected official takes a stand that is unpopular with more than about 10% of the voters, the outpouring of negativity is stunning (and it can be even when it's just a handful of people who disagree). And that is at a local level, where these constituents are literally our neighbors. If they want to, they can knock on our door, and many of them have my wife's personal phone number. Nonetheless, rather than talk to her, they savage her on whatever platform they have, calling her all kinds of things, and implying that she is bought by some interest or another. And she is very popular in this town. It isn't for the feint of heart.

As with any person, the politician approaches any issue with preconceived notions. Some people--and some politicians--are better than others at challenging their own preconceived notions. And in a democracy, these elected officials have to work with other elected officials to get things done. And they each have their own set of preconceived notions that impact what they expect in a given situation. They also can't be experts in every issue they need to consider, so must seek out experts to learn more and often for guidance. And, they are making, and amending laws that have be generally applicable to an amazingly broad array of issues (so the idea of a simple bill, while appealing, is generally naive).

Even the money in politics isn't as simple as we would all like. Again, we are relatively comfortable, but to win a local election, where there is no real pay, takes a significant chunk of change--more than we, in our reasonably comfortable life--could easily part with. So the politician raises money through donations. Determining who to take donations from, and who not to, is itself fraught in a business where not pissing people off is relatively important. Some people think public funding is the answer, but then how do you determine who gets the funding? What's the cutoff? Additionally, one indication of whether someone is capable of rallying people behind them (an important quality for a representative of the people) is whether they can effectively raise funds. Receiving money from a donor doesn't make the politician beholden to the donor, but of course donors tend to favor candidates they think will agree with them most of the time.

Term limits have already been adequately dealt with above, but I'll simply add that in California we have them, and they haven't had the desired effect (though there is something to be said for turnover; there is also something to be said for experience and relationships). Ranked-choice voting occurs in San Francisco. It's been there for a few elections now. It's still--I think--in the experimental stage. Maybe it helps.

The federal government, even more than state and local governments, is a very big ship that manages a massive number of incredibly complex tasks. Simplicity is rarely going to function well at the federal level. In the United States we have always tended towards less government intervention than occurs elsewhere, but we still need a functional government. No matter the size of the government, people always think it costs too much because no one likes paying taxes, and everyone can always find some government program they disagree with, which plainly (to that taxpayer, anyway) wastes their money. But, for anyone who has ever compared charity-led intervention with tax-funded intervention, it is obvious that private action has a very difficult time mimicking government action.

Despite our relatively limited government intervention, we always (and have from the beginning) argue about how much and where to intervene. That is a healthy part of democracy.

People also really like the concept of experts in a field making decisions relating to those fields, but constituents hate decisions that are made without their input, even if they don't have a clue what they are talking about. That is actually a key role for the politician: to act as the conduit between constituents (and their under-informed feelings) and experts, who sometimes lose sight of the impact their decisions might have on the common person.

At this point, I'm just rambling, but as I've had a front row seat to this whole politician thing, it has become very clear how much more complicated it is than the average person wishes it were. There are, of course, bad apples who are politicians (as everywhere else in life), but we would all be well served to remember each other's humanity--even the politician's.

CWSooner

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #171 on: April 07, 2020, 05:44:41 PM »
The NPVIC approach, right or wrong, is arguably unconstitutional (arguably not).  If that got to SCOTUS, they might have to make a political "judgment" on it.

It also could generate some unintended consequences.
I would hope that the SCOTUS would declare it unconstitutional.
It's obviously an attempt to change the constitutional order without going through the process of passing and ratifying a Constitutional Amendment.
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CWSooner

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #172 on: April 07, 2020, 05:47:46 PM »
This is one.

The Preamble showing, written larger than the rest, We the People title=The Preamble showing, written larger than the rest, We the People
Yep.

We can't fix our country until we fix ourselves.
The founders noted that our system wouldn't work if we were not a virtuous people.
Who advocates virtue anymore in our political environment?  In our media culture?  In our schoolhouses?  In our (as opposed to the other guys') college football programs?
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847badgerfan

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #173 on: April 07, 2020, 05:50:16 PM »
But, for anyone who has ever compared charity-led intervention with tax-funded intervention, it is obvious that private action has a very difficult time mimicking government action.
I loved your whole post, but I fixated on this because it hits home.

I helped lead a charity-based effort where government has failed miserably, and we succeeded. However, I also know that the area I live in has money and people willing to part with it.

That's not everywhere, but man, if every community college in the country could offer earned tuition (we don't call it free here), that would go a long way. Maybe we need the big money corporations to think about that, as opposed to lining the coffers and foundations of our elected officials. That would be something.
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Riffraft

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #174 on: April 07, 2020, 05:58:24 PM »
What is the problem that the NPVIC is supposed to solve?  That Donald Trump beat Hillary Clinton?

Citing previous elections where the Electoral College vote went one way and the popular vote went the other way doesn't prove anything.  The campaign was to gain electoral votes.  Had it been to gain popular votes, it might have gone differently.  We don't know that Samuel Tilden would have been a better president than Rutherford B. Hayes, or that Al Gore would have been a better president than George W. Bush, or that Hillary Clinton would have done any better than Donald Trump.
And what will be the unintended consequences of changing the presidential election to a mass popular vote?  Many, many unintended consequences.  And some malignant changes that might well be intended.  Don't mess with the constitutional order unless you've got a good idea of what it was intended to accomplish and whether your "fix" is going to make things better or worse.
I hate the situation with crooked/bought-off/overly-concerned-about-their-re-election politicians as much as anyone, but I have yet to see a campaign-finance-reform proposal that is not a restriction on political speech and freedom of the press.  And political speech is what the First Amendment's protection of speech is all about.  And freedom of the press is not limited to newspapers and magazines.  It's also for Joe Six-Pack and his printer/photocopier.
We've only seen the one case cited in the argument against term limits.  I would not say that that means that the case is closed.
Finally, I think there's a good case to be made for stronger parties.  When parties are stronger, we know who to blame for the mess.  A stronger GOP would have been able to keep Donald Trump from joining it and taking it over.  When parties are too weak to enforce party discipline, it sets up a situation where the politicians are lone operators, selling out to the highest bidder.
I'm not defending the stench emanating from Washington, DC.  But we need to make sure that fixes don't make the situation worse.
I'll offer an example of fixes that made the existing situation worse.  Everyone can cite the 18th Amendment as a bad idea that had the major achievement of enriching organized crime figures like Al Capone (and other non-organized criminals like Joseph P. Kennedy).  But I think that the 17th Amendment was even worse.  It was supposed to "clean up" the Senate by making Senators elected directly by the people.  (I'll insert here that few of us have had much to say good about "the people" on this thread.)  What it accomplished was to inflict much damage on the system of checks and balances.  Not just the federal government's system, where the Senate and the House are supposed to check and balance each other, but whole federal system where the states were supposed to play a role in checking the federal government.  Now Senators are like Representatives with bigger districts and longer terms, essentially beholden to the same interests as those Reps are.  And the state governments, which used to elect the Senators to represent the states' interests, now have no direct way of influencing federal policy-making.
 you have hit the nail on the head. The popular election of the Senate has help destroy federalism. I would love to repeal the 17th amendment. 

Cincydawg

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #175 on: April 07, 2020, 05:58:31 PM »
The States are charged with how Electors are to be chosen of course, so there is that argument.

Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector.

SFBadger96

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #176 on: April 07, 2020, 05:58:52 PM »
There are undoubtedly things that private organizations can do better than the government, including certain charitable acts. But when it comes to large, systemic things (like public education, for example) the private fundraiser--even the best of the best--can't compete with a small tax measure.

One of the government's key roles is raising and spending tax dollars (how much, where, how, etc. are all worthy points of debate), and the amount of money associated with that dwarfs what charities can raise.

Cincydawg

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #177 on: April 07, 2020, 06:03:06 PM »
I would like to ask the question "Does this need to be done at the Federal level?".  For some things, like say pollution, the answer is yes.  For many other things it's yes.  For some things, it might be best left to more local control.

All the power and influence vested in DC is because of the trillions they spend.  The only way to reduce "influence peddling" is to reduce the pot.  That can't happen of course, so I don't pine for it.

CWSooner

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #178 on: April 07, 2020, 06:06:37 PM »
Or even better, set it based on the national average life expectancy at birth.

You can run for president as long as your term will complete before you reach the average life expectancy at birth.

This seems to have multiple facets:

  • While you won't limit it to first term vs second term, it will cause political parties to not nominate anyone seeking their FIRST term who is less than 8 years from that age. Because they don't want someone to win if they can't seek reelection, due to the natural advantages of incumbency for the party in power.
  • If you want a bunch of old dudes (and women) in Congress, the Senate, or Governorships to take healthcare and public safety seriously--the things that impact average life expectancy at birth, they now have a direct incentive to increase that age.

Where it might get interesting then is if you actually make it different between men and women. That's probably unconstitutional, but if you want to get 50% of the populace to buy in, women have about a 4 year advantage in average life expectancy at birth. For all the people in this country wondering when we'll elect our first female President, that would certainly open the field somewhat. But if you didn't want to do that, I'd set the age as the average between the two.
It would be unconstitutional.  Having upper-age limits at all, just as changing lower-age limits, just as waiving the 2-term limit (as was bandied about for a recent president) would be unconstitutional.  Like so many other ideas, good and bad, it would require a Constitutional Amendment.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #179 on: April 07, 2020, 06:13:28 PM »

Here is an interesting "fact".  On the Supreme Court, the conservative Justices vote with the Liberal Justices 70% of the time.  They vote with folks on their "side" about 85% of the time.  Most decisions are either 9-0 or 5-4, there are relatively few 6-3 and 7-2 and 8-1 decisions.  And of course many of the decisions have no Con/Lib slant to them at all.
Here's another massive thing that bothers me:  why are there partisan judges at all?!???
Being a partisan judge should be what eliminates you from even being a candidate to the Supreme Court.  It's obscene.  Those 9 judges should be like swing states - we absolutely should not be able to predict what 8 of them are going to do.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

CWSooner

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #180 on: April 07, 2020, 06:14:22 PM »
I would think that the better system might be more of a parliamentary system with proportional representation.

Right now we elect Congress not by person, but by party, anyway. And with gerrymandered districts, we really don't have a lot of turnover where a district actually flips red to blue or vice versa.

Do we really think that our local representative is actually looking out for our direct interests rather than following party line? There's no "Mr Smith Goes To Washington" going on as far as I can tell...

So if we're primarily voting for party rather than "muh reprasentitive" anyway, why not actually vote for party? The parties create their own lists of ranking, and seats are allocated based on national popular vote of PARTY representation and the parties go down their lists and the top whatever number that meet the allocation get seats. You set a lower limit, of course... For any party to get seats, they have to win a certain percentage of the national vote. One seat in Congress is 0.22% of the makeup, so set a limit at say 10x that... If your party gets over 2% of the national vote, you get seats allocated according to your percentage.

You know what this does? It actually allows third parties to do something. Today as a libertarian I'm unrepresented. Libertarians (not the party, but the ideology) are believed to comprise 10-15 percent of the American populace, but we don't get anyone in Congress because we don't command a plurality of ANY individual district.

With individual representation and first past the post voting our system cannot sustain in a stable configuration with more than two parties. I think with individual representation and ranked choice or other voting systems, we still won't have that become a stable configuration. It's only with getting rid of the direct representation model that I think we'd see third parties actually become viable.
If we had had a parliamentary system in the middle of the 19th century, Abraham Lincoln would have left office right after the 1862 mid-terms.
If we had a parliamentary system, we would have to split our presidency.  The president would remain under that name, but he would have little power.  He would be the head of state, a mostly ceremonial position.  The parliamentary leader would be the prime minister, head of government.
I voted for your libertarian candidate in 2016, even though he was a loon.  You guys had your once-in-a-lifetime chance to mount a serious 3rd-party campaign, and you nominated a loon.
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rolltidefan

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #181 on: April 07, 2020, 06:15:45 PM »
You may not vote for party, but whoever gets elected in your state/district probably votes their party line 98% of the time.
Very likely yes. And that’s a problem. This my team vs your team has got to stop. 

 

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