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Topic: GOAT: Nick Saban

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SFBadger96

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GOAT: Nick Saban
« on: January 09, 2018, 06:17:28 PM »
Interesting piece on Five Thirty Eight: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/nick-sabans-alabama-has-reached-a-new-stratosphere/

I found it interesting that one of my immediate thoughts was what a ten-year war between Carroll's Trojans and Saban's Tide would look like? Saban has the better stats (by a hefty margin), but USC is close on the list (and Bowden's FSU).

As disappointing as it is, it's hard to avoid the conclusion that Saban is all that he's cracked up to be...and more. How do MSU fans feel about that? A missed opportunity, or MSU never had a realistic chance of keeping him?

Finally, though, as good as Alabama has been, I still bristle at the comments about how unbeatable it is. The Tide has an excellent college football program, but it is still a college football program. Other teams are more than capable of beating Alabama on any given day (just not as capable as they are of beating other teams, particularly not in the playoff format).
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 07:04:29 PM by SFBadger96 »
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MrNubbz

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Re: GOAT: Nick Saban
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2018, 06:53:54 PM »
Can't really compare across generations.As a College HC he's in the top 3 all time IMO.
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PortlandSpartan

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Re: GOAT: Nick Saban
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2018, 07:15:58 PM »
Quote from: SFBadger96 on January 09, 2018, 06:17:28 PM
Interesting piece on Five Thirty Eight: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/nick-sabans-alabama-has-reached-a-new-stratosphere/

I found it interesting that one of my immediate thoughts was what a ten-year war between Carroll's Trojans and Saban's Tide would look like? Saban has the better stats (by a hefty margin), but USC is close on the list (and Bowden's FSU).

As disappointing as it is, it's hard to avoid the conclusion that Saban is all that he's cracked up to be...and more. How do MSU fans feel about that? A missed opportunity, or MSU never had a realistic chance of keeping him?

Finally, though, as good as Alabama has been, I still bristle at the comments about how unbeatable it is. The Tide has an excellent college football program, but it is still a college football program. Other teams are more than capable of beating Alabama on any given day (just not as capable as they are of beating other teams, particularly not in the playoff format).
You cannot argue with Saban's record at LSU and Bama - he is one of the all time greats. That said, I don't look at him and wonder what if.  While some say he didn't want to leave MSU, he was not a MSU lifer. Nor do I think he was the right fit for MSU/would have accomplished there what he has done elsewhere. I think there is a weird chemistry to things and that he needed the MSU experience, he needed the LSU experience, he needed the failed NFL experience.
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847badgerfan

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Re: GOAT: Nick Saban
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2018, 07:28:21 PM »
I don't think there's a question that he's the greatest. There's no smoke either - he's doing it clean as clean can be in this time we live in. You never hear anything so I believe he's doing it right down there.

Nobody coaching today is in the same universe. Sorry Urbs. You're not.

Paul Bryant had a great record too, but he's listed on the same page as John Wooden in my mind. And that's not a gouda thing.

Paterno comes to mind because I think he did it the right way (not getting into the Sandusky thing again here) for a long time. Parseghian? Hayes? Who else? It's hard for me to go back to Stagg and Yost because times were so different then. Osbourne? Wilkenson?
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LittlePig

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Re: GOAT: Nick Saban
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2018, 09:12:57 PM »
The only argument I can make against Saban is he has gotten more 2nd chances, after his team loses once in a season, than coaches got in previous eras.

Bama may have been the best team this season, but did they really deserve another chance for the championship after they did not even win their division?

In a different era, Saban would probably have less championships.   That all said, he definitely is the king of this era and makes the most of his NCG appearances.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: GOAT: Nick Saban
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2018, 09:19:21 PM »
I've said that Saban has his program at the best possible place it can be - his every loss is an upset.  That's all you can do, coaching college kids.  

The FG the Bama kicker choked away at the end of regulation made me laugh, because it's a microcosm of Saban as a coach.  He can preach focus, recruit like hell, yell and scream until he's red in the face, but at the end of the day it's 20 year olds running around out there.  Bama got the ball back late in a tied game.  The offense moved it down into FG range.  They ran a few plays to spot it where they wanted it.  And bam, the kicker screws it all up.  

That botched FG was basically a chip-shot.  Every game for Bama is basically a chip-shot.  They have to royally screw it up (ie hook it) to lose (miss the FG).  

So SFBadger, when you say you scoff at Bama being unbeatable, it's not about that.  I think people who say Saban's unbeatable aren't articulating it precisely.  What they mean to say is that something screwy has to happen in order for them to lose - something very unlikely and probably rare.  

It's just a description, but it's sort of happened literally a few times as well.  Manziel's corralled fumble- turned - TD.......Ole Miss' WR grabbing a long tipped pass.....random-ass stuff leading to Alabama losses under Saban.  You don't gameplan to just straight up beat the Tide - you need an angle, inspired play, and good fortune.

He's the best, because his every loss is an upset, even when he's the 4 seed.  
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 09:22:00 PM by OrangeAfroMan »
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ALA2262

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Re: GOAT: Nick Saban
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2018, 11:14:43 PM »
Amazing stat. Every player he has recruited at LSU and Bama since his first season at LSU in 2000, and remained there for three years, has been on a National Championship team. Every. Single. One.
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CousinFreddie

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Re: GOAT: Nick Saban
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2018, 11:49:49 PM »
Quote from: ALA2262 on January 09, 2018, 11:14:43 PM
Amazing stat. Every player he has recruited at LSU and Bama since his first season at LSU in 2000, and remained there for three years, has been on a National Championship team. Every. Single. One.
Damn.  That’s some serious WOW material right there.  
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ELA

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Re: GOAT: Nick Saban
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2018, 08:01:14 AM »
Quote from: SFBadger96 on January 09, 2018, 06:17:28 PM
As disappointing as it is, it's hard to avoid the conclusion that Saban is all that he's cracked up to be...and more. How do MSU fans feel about that? A missed opportunity, or MSU never had a realistic chance of keeping him?
He's certainly all he's cracked up to be.  I don't think any MSU fan looks at it as a missed opportunity.  To win like that in college football you need a great coach and a helmet school.  Saban could have stayed at MSU forever, and he never would have accomplished this there.  I think he's meant to be at a school like that.  It's a great fit.

I don't even think he would have been as successful at MSU as Dantonio was.  I'm just not sure he's wired to be the type of guy to figure out how to do more with less, to accept that no matter what you do, a few times a year there are going to be teams with substantially more talent and more resources than you.  Being ok with 8-4 seasons being part of the natural cycle.  Yes, his best team at MSU was his last team, but it's not like they built up to that.  I think that was just a great MSU team, than MSU tends to have every so often.  In Perles' last three years, MSU went 5-6, 6-6, 6-5.  Then in Saban's first four, they went 6-5, 6-6, 7-5, 6-6.  Then they went 10-2 and he left.  He hadn't done anything in his first four years to suggest any sort of trajectory change.

I was a UM, not an MSU fan when Saban was in East Lansing, and I certainly wasn't relieved he was leaving.  I wasn't worried they'd do better though either.  My only lasting memory was laughing that he was taking what I viewed as a lateral job, because he was scared of Michigan, and I liked that.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 08:02:50 AM by ELA »
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ALA2262

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Re: GOAT: Nick Saban
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2018, 11:37:07 AM »
Quote from: ELA on January 10, 2018, 08:01:14 AM
He's certainly all he's cracked up to be.  I don't think any MSU fan looks at it as a missed opportunity.  To win like that in college football you need a great coach and a helmet school.  Saban could have stayed at MSU forever, and he never would have accomplished this there.  I think he's meant to be at a school like that.  It's a great fit.

I don't even think he would have been as successful at MSU as Dantonio was.  I'm just not sure he's wired to be the type of guy to figure out how to do more with less, to accept that no matter what you do, a few times a year there are going to be teams with substantially more talent and more resources than you.  Being ok with 8-4 seasons being part of the natural cycle.  Yes, his best team at MSU was his last team, but it's not like they built up to that.  I think that was just a great MSU team, than MSU tends to have every so often.  In Perles' last three years, MSU went 5-6, 6-6, 6-5.  Then in Saban's first four, they went 6-5, 6-6, 7-5, 6-6.  Then they went 10-2 and he left.  He hadn't done anything in his first four years to suggest any sort of trajectory change.

I was a UM, not an MSU fan when Saban was in East Lansing, and I certainly wasn't relieved he was leaving.  I wasn't worried they'd do better though either.  My only lasting memory was laughing that he was taking what I viewed as a lateral job, because he was scared of Michigan, and I liked that.
^^^this^^^ I have been saying for several years the guy was born to coach Alabama.
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ELA

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Re: GOAT: Nick Saban
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2018, 11:51:35 AM »
Quote from: ALA2262 on January 10, 2018, 11:37:07 AM
^^^this^^^ I have been saying for several years the guy was born to coach Alabama.
I think fit is always important.  I certainly don't mean to imply that Dantonio could even approach what Saban has done at Bama.
For all the talk about how much talent he has, managing that talent is a skill.  To convince guys who could go anywhere, to come sit behind 3 guys at their position that were just as highly acclaimed?  To manage all of those egos?  That's not something every coach could do.  Some coaches couldn't handle the pressure of a helmet school.  Some coaches couldn't handle the limitations of a non-helmet school.  Some coaches wouldn't even know where to start on a total rebuild.  While some coaches who could, wouldn't know how to elevate a good program to a great program.
Saban was a good coach at MSU, but aside from geography, it was never the right fit.  I know UM fans find Danotnio "obsessed" with UM.  But UM is the elephant in the state.  You can't simply ignore them.  The number of times Dantonio, with no context is asked about UM in interviews is comical.  He has chosen to deal with that head on.  Saban didn't want to.  That's fine, that's not the type of coach he is.  Really there's no third option though, either the disrespect eats away at you, or you figure out how to embrace it.  I don't think Dantonio would know how to motivate a room full of blue chippers in any way that they would find genuine.
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: GOAT: Nick Saban
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2018, 12:01:00 PM »
Quote from: ELA on January 10, 2018, 11:51:35 AM
I think fit is always important.  I certainly don't mean to imply that Dantonio could even approach what Saban has done at Bama.
I agree with this 100%.  I've said before that I believe that if Alabama and Michigan State traded coaches tomorrow both would be worse off for the switch.  
Coaching Bama is not the same skill-set as coaching MSU, it just isn't.  Being great at one does not mean you would be great at the other.  
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Brutus Buckeye

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Re: GOAT: Nick Saban
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2018, 12:04:36 PM »


I feel that Dantonio would have a much better chance of succeeding at Bama than Saban would have at MSU. 
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ELA

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Re: GOAT: Nick Saban
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2018, 12:06:01 PM »
Quote from: Brutus Buckeye on January 10, 2018, 12:04:36 PM

I feel that Dantonio would have a much better chance of succeeding at Bama than Saban would have at MSU.
Well, if only because my wife could take over Bama tomorrow and they'd still be pretty damn good for like 3 years.
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