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Topic: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?

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utee94

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Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?
« Reply #70 on: October 01, 2019, 12:22:58 PM »
no one needs to defend their scheduling to me

it's the committee that you need to impress

no coach in their right mind schedules a loss

The SEC has perfected a method of gaming the system.  It's within the rules, it's not foul play, it might be considered mild bad sportsmanship but really it's just smart leadership from the top-down.  If other conferences don't like it, they can reduce to only 8 conference games and schedule a cupcake weekend in November to even the playing field.  

FearlessF

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Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?
« Reply #71 on: October 01, 2019, 12:26:41 PM »
Ed Zachery
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Cincydawg

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Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?
« Reply #72 on: October 01, 2019, 12:27:12 PM »
The ACC also plays 8 conference games.  I personally don't see 8 or 9 as THE issue, it's playing 10 P5 teams a year for me.

The ACC could have "gamed the system" the best by having one great team and 13 mediocre to awful teams.

bayareabadger

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Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?
« Reply #73 on: October 01, 2019, 12:45:46 PM »
Tech can't recruit, so they need some kind of gimmicky offense.  Fortunately they have given that up, they were annoying to play.


That’s my thought. Even O’Leery had some gimmick. 

In any case, none of their coaches really bomb, they just flutter around seven wins, with occasional bursts and less occasional slips. 

utee94

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Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?
« Reply #74 on: October 01, 2019, 12:52:42 PM »
The ACC also plays 8 conference games.  I personally don't see 8 or 9 as THE issue, it's playing 10 P5 teams a year for me.

The ACC could have "gamed the system" the best by having one great team and 13 mediocre to awful teams.

No need to be so defensive, the SEC is smart.  But they're most certainly gaming the system.

Yes, the ACC does the same thing with 8 conference games.  But the ACC isn't gaming the system, it just sucks for the most part.  This is nothing new.  It used to be Florida State and the 11 dwarves.  Now it's Clemson and the 13 dwarves.  I don't disagree that it's advantageous to Clemson or whichever is the one good team in a bad conference,  but it's not the entire conference attempting to maneuver itself into a more advantageous position for the post-season, relative to other conferences.  

And the 8 or 9 games is actually a REALLY big deal, because it leads directly to conference perception.  While the B1G or B12 are playing conference games on that weekend in November, delivering losses to exactly half their membership, the SEC is playing OOC cupcakes with minimal risk to its member schools.  So the  B1G and B12 take losses and move down in the rankings, while the SEC assumes almost little risk of loss, wins almost all its games on cupcake weekend, and its teams move up.  Despite there being no relative difference in how good they were the week before.  It's a simple numbers game.

It's not against the rules.  And if other conferences don't like it, they are free to schedule only 8 conference games, and institute their own FCS Cupcake Weekend.  The sport would suffer of course, but it already does.

SFBadger96

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Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?
« Reply #75 on: October 01, 2019, 12:56:24 PM »
First, the unimportant point: ND plays in California the Thanksgiving weekend every year. One year it's Stanford, the next USC. The return game for each school is normally October in South Bend. I think from time-to-time Stanford sneaks into September. Not that it matters.

There are a lot of great coaches, and they wouldn't all be good everywhere. I think Meyer is in the discussion because his skill set appeared to work everywhere he went.

Xs and Os are a small part of the overall picture in college ball because the talent levels are so disparate. That's why Michigan and Ohio State will rarely truly struggle--their recruit pipeline just has better athletes than most everyone else in the BigTen. See below. 

Recruiting and personnel management (both players and coaches) are the biggest issues: getting the best players and putting them on the field in a place to succeed. But recruiting is different at a blue chip than at a rebuild, or, frankly, any lower tiers. 

Carroll was a great recruiter and did a great job of picking the right people out of that talented pool to put on the field.

The marketers of the world will love this, but I believe it: your brand matters. What Alvarez and Snyder did was build a brand for their program. Alvarez had the lunch pail boys--which fits perfectly with Wisconsin's mindset (the state, not just the university). It also fit with who he could recruit--and continues to. The program has stuck to that mold and succeeded wildly with it. I also think Alvarez hit his ceiling. If Notre Dame had considered him instead of Davie, I think he would have succeeded there, probably similar to a Stoops at Oklahoma: consistently very good, sometimes great, but not on a top-5 finish every year level.

All the best programs have their brands--and for the true blue bloods, it's what makes the Helmets the Helmets: thirty years after its last MNC, ND can still recruit at the highest levels; even Bob Davie and Charlie Weis could. 

And coaches have their brands, sometimes effectively passed on. Carroll had the collection of pure athletic talent at USC; Schellenberger, Jimmy Johnson and Dennis Erickson had the bad boys at Miami; Devaney and Osborne had the triple option and the blackshirts at Nebraska; John McKay and John Robinson had Tailback-U; Bowden built the FSU brand--and no one has truly been able to maintain it; Paterno built PSU's brand, including Linebacker-U and the jury is out on whether Franklin can maintain it--but early returns are promising. Lou Holtz had his brand, which worked well everywhere--best at ND, which has its own special sauce--but ran out of gas (everywhere that he stayed long enough, including ND).

I think part of Spurrier's downfall (meaning what keeps him out of the pantheon in my mind--he was undoubtedly a great coach) is that his brand was Xs and Os, which only gets you so far without the talent (and obviously he had some great talent, but not on the same par as some of these guys).

Carr, Tressel, Schembechler, Woody Hayes, Lou Holtz, Phil Fulmer, Frank Beamer, Gene Stallings, Vince Dooley, etc.: those guys were all very good, but not the very top tier.

I agree with the earlier post that discounts the earlier eras--the times were much different then. Though undoubtedly Bear Bryant, Knute Rockne, Frank Leahy, Fielding Yost, etc. were great coaches for their day.

Switzer has to be up there. I don't think Stoops is; he's in the conversation because of his longevity in a time that most coaches didn't have that, but he didn't have the kind of consistent elite success that some others have. I put Bowden up there because of his amazing run at FSU: 14 seasons in a row finishing in the AP top 5. Wow. Meyer is in the conversation, for sure.

And I think Saban's accomplishments outpace all of them by a significant margin. In the last ten years Alabama has finished in the AP top 10 every year, won five national championships, and finished second two more times. The five national titles elevates him above Bowden in my mind, though Bowden more or less built FSU, so that's got to be considered. I think he's my #2.

Cincydawg

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Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?
« Reply #76 on: October 01, 2019, 01:05:53 PM »
I'm fine with scheduling that has ten P5 level teams a year, however you insert the pastries is up to you.

There is advantage in starting with pasties as a preseason, and advantage in having one before a main rival.

But limit it to two a year.

Entropy

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Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?
« Reply #77 on: October 01, 2019, 01:20:22 PM »
If I was a program like KU today, I'd follow the KSU model.   You have to create a culture of winning and expecting to do well.   Get the wins to flip the culture and then adjust.  But I would not bother with out of conference challenges until you can challenge teams within the conference.  

Cincydawg

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Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?
« Reply #78 on: October 01, 2019, 01:26:39 PM »
My counter way to build a moribund program would be to schedule great programs OOC as much as you can, schedule 3 per year if you can, generate some buzz, get on TV, don't play games versus Virginia Wesleyan.

I was mulling this for UNC.  They got a high profile coaching hire which helped recruiting.  What if they scheduled some prominent programs?  More exposure, more ability to put the notion in someone's mind they might consider UNC.

Sure, you get clobbered a lot, and perhaps miss some minor bowl game, but so?


rolltidefan

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Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?
« Reply #79 on: October 01, 2019, 01:56:17 PM »
think i'd go middle ground. schedule other middle-low p5 teams, and do it on a week that's typically cupcake heavy but before conf kickoff, like week 2-3. that way you got a chance to have game of the week, gameday, etc. miss st, ole miss, vandy, kentucky, virginia, duke, indiana, zona, asu, baylor, tt, etc.

utee94

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Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?
« Reply #80 on: October 01, 2019, 01:56:55 PM »
I'm fine with scheduling that has ten P5 level teams a year, however you insert the pastries is up to you.

There is advantage in starting with pasties as a preseason, and advantage in having one before a main rival.

But limit it to two a year.
I'm certainly fine with that, too.

When the SEC steps up and mandates it, I'll be thoroughly impressed. 

But that still doesn't counter the 8-game vs. 9-game conference schedule advantage.  The 9-game schedule GUARANTEES 7 more conference losses for a 14-team conference like the B1G.  The SEC is able to schedule out from underneath that with only 8 conference games.  They might or might not win all of those OOC games, but given the number of FCS and bad G5 teams that pop up on the schedules, the SEC is assuming FAR less risk than the B1G.

And that doesn't even address the TIMING of the FCS Cupcake Weekend, from an overall conference perspective, that I pointed out before.

But again, if the B12 and B1G don't like it, they are free to adopt the exact same practices.

Cincydawg

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Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?
« Reply #81 on: October 01, 2019, 02:01:03 PM »
A nine game conference slate guarantees 7-8 more wins for conference teams also.

Is it better to start the season with two pastries or have them spread out in the season?  I prefer one in Week One and then the other one before a main rival, if you don't have a BYE week, which is also a key part of scheduling.

Florida used to have a BYE week before the WLOCP each year and UGA did not, and fans thought it was "unfair".  Now, both have BYEs.

Oddly, UGA caught a bye before the Tenn game, which makes sense longer term, and it did let them recover from some key injuries.

I suppose folks have noticed how BAD the bottom of the SEC is this year, it's worse than normal I think.  

FearlessF

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Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?
« Reply #82 on: October 01, 2019, 02:05:12 PM »
I'm fine with scheduling that has ten P5 level teams a year, however you insert the pastries is up to you.

There is advantage in starting with pasties as a preseason, and advantage in having one before a main rival.

But limit it to two a year.
the difference between this and 9 conference games is what Utee brought up.

if all members of the ACC and SEC scheduled 10 P5 teams a season that is closer, but not the same.

When only the top teams in the SEC schedule 10 P5, but the bottom half of the SEC does not, there are wins for the bottom half that make it look stronger at the end of the season.
When some of the bottom teams are getting wins instead of losses it affects the SOS of the top teams.
When all members of the conference play 9 games the wins and losses go to zero sum.
that is "gaming" the system or just plain smart.
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

utee94

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Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?
« Reply #83 on: October 01, 2019, 02:16:18 PM »
Ed Zachary :)

 

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