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Topic: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level

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CWSooner

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Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
« Reply #588 on: August 14, 2021, 07:20:54 PM »
Sure,  the EV under power can provide the oomph, no doubt, but at the penalty of being slowed down, it's a zero sum game, less than that due to losses.

It's regen braking, you can't recharge a battery without the input of energy from somewhere.  If that comes from the EV, it either slows down, or it uses battery power to maintain speed.

You can turn a generator without the input of power.  This is like attaching an electric motor to a generator and expecting the generator to provide all the power to keep the motor turning, with no other inputs.

Perpetual motion.
I'm not an engineer, and I didn't sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night, but that's how it appears to me.
In the analogy with the wind turbine, the car's battery is providing the "wind" to turn the generator to produce electricity to power the battery.
But I'm completely open to being wrong here.  I can't even explain how something can be in two places at the same time, or how a cat can be both dead and alive at the same time.
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utee94

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Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
« Reply #589 on: August 14, 2021, 11:30:21 PM »
Sure,  the EV under power can provide the oomph, no doubt, but at the penalty of being slowed down, it's a zero sum game, less than that due to losses.

It's regen braking, you can't recharge a battery without the input of energy from somewhere.  If that comes from the EV, it either slows down, or it uses battery power to maintain speed.

You can turn a generator without the input of power.  This is like attaching an electric motor to a generator and expecting the generator to provide all the power to keep the motor turning, with no other inputs.

Perpetual motion.

What?  Both bwar and I have stated multiple times, you can't expect to recover the same amount you're expending.

But if you don't get that, then you really do have a fundamental misunderstanding of electromagnetic fields and power generation.  We've tried to explain it to you in multiple ways.

I get it, those two concepts are actually the core of two entire and separate upper-division electrical engineering courses-- it's not easy stuff.

But bwar and I have both graduated from two of the best electrical engineering programs in the country.  We've studied this stuff. I can assure you, we understand the physics involved.  

« Last Edit: August 14, 2021, 11:40:44 PM by utee94 »

utee94

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Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
« Reply #590 on: August 14, 2021, 11:35:23 PM »
I'm not an engineer, and I didn't sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night, but that's how it appears to me.
In the analogy with the wind turbine, the car's battery is providing the "wind" to turn the generator to produce electricity to power the battery.
But I'm completely open to being wrong here.  I can't even explain how something can be in two places at the same time, or how a cat can be both dead and alive at the same time.

I don't mean to be condescending, but you and CD are arguing against two electrical engineers here. And, like, electrical engineers from a couple of the electrical-engineer-iest of all schools out there (not named Caltech or MIT).

We've tried to put it in extremely plain terms.  If you still have doubts, well... there's no changing that.

Cincydawg

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Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
« Reply #591 on: August 15, 2021, 07:28:39 AM »
I admit I am simply not following how this should work.  It sounds like perpetual motion to me.

Cincydawg

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Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
« Reply #592 on: August 15, 2021, 07:38:46 AM »
See if I have this right.  The pavement is magnetized, the vehicle has a coil near the pavement of some sort.  As the car moves, this is pushing a coil through a magnetic field, which is the classic generator, and would generate current.

But it will also slow the car, requiring the battery to spend energy keeping it at speed (unless it's downhill).  But on downhill portions, the car can do this on its own using regen braking, which in effect is the same process.

What am I missing?

FearlessF

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Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
« Reply #593 on: August 15, 2021, 10:33:25 AM »
simple, build a coal plant near the highway and provide the power from there
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
« Reply #594 on: August 15, 2021, 10:34:03 AM »
See if I have this right.  The pavement is magnetized, the vehicle has a coil near the pavement of some sort.  As the car moves, this is pushing a coil through a magnetic field, which is the classic generator, and would generate current.

But it will also slow the car, requiring the battery to spend energy keeping it at speed (unless it's downhill).  But on downhill portions, the car can do this on its own using regen braking, which in effect is the same process.

What am I missing?
Okay, a few things.

First, let's go back to the bar magnet going into a coil of wire. As you try to push the bar through the coil, the change in magnetic field will generate a current in the wire, and that current will create a counteracting magnetic field that pushes against the bar's movement. 

Now, if the coil is, say, 10" long and the bar magnet is 48" long, here's where it gets interesting... Once the bar magnet is fully inserted in the coil of wire, if you pass the bar magnet through the coil at constant velocity there will be no current generated and no force either way, because at that point the magnetic field is not changing within the coil. Current comes from the change in the field. Then when you get to the end of the bar magnet, and you're trying to pull it out of the coil, the current in the wire will reverse, the magnetic field will reverse, and the force will reverse, actually trying to hold the bar within the coil and not let it go. 

So that's where 94 and I first got on the idea of an alternating magnetic field, rather than constant. Because if the field is constant and the velocity is constant, there will be no change in magnetic field despite the motion, and no current will be generated.

So we'll start with the area in which you're correct. If you basically magnetize the road in longitudinal strips, say every 5 feet is a distinct magnetic north and south, and the receiver coil is set up in the direction of motion, you're correct. The change in magnetic field as you go over the road will generate current in the wire and also generate a magnetic field opposite the direction of travel that will slow the car. The amount of energy generated in the coil should be equal to the magnetic field in a 1:1 relationship, with the amount of energy/force proportional to the speed of the car. The car's motors must then produce an equal amount of energy to counteract the magnetic field generated by the coil. Because you'll have efficiency losses both in the charging electronics and the battery->motor->wheels drivetrain, fundamentally I don't see how you can actually add energy faster than you deplete it, making this a net negative.

HOWEVER, and this is a big one, it is NOT clear that you need to have the magnetic field and the receiver coil oriented in the direction of travel. 

If you use either of my examples:


  • The field is oriented vertically, with the north or south pole of the magnet pointed towards the sky and the opposite pole pointed towards the center of the earth. The receiver coil is oriented vertically as well. The magnetic field is still alternating every few feet, so you still get a change in magnetic field as you drive over it. But the counter-field generated in the coil results in a force of attraction/repulsion that is oriented vertically. Thus it has no bearing whatsoever on the direction of travel and the car's motors do no extra work. 
  • The field is oriented horizontally, transverse to the direction of travel. I.e. north is left and south is right, and then every few feet you reverse it. You mount the receiver coil also horizontally transverse to the wheelbase. Now the magnetic forces generated are left/right and again don't impact the amount of work the motors have to do. 

In both of those cases, no forces are generated that counteract the forward motion of the car. It's more akin to putting a solar panel on the top of the car--you're taking advantage of something effectively free. Magnetic energy, from the standpoint of the car, is free, much like a coiled wire in the roadway, from the standpoint of the car, is free. With enough energy (whether solar or magnetic or inductive charging in the road) you could even charge the car faster than the motors deplete it, without violating the laws of nature and creating a perpetual motion machine. 

The big question, much like putting a solar panel on the roof of an EV, is whether you can create a magnetic field strong enough in the road to make even a measurable difference. That's where I think this project will likely fall flat. 


Cincydawg

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Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
« Reply #595 on: August 15, 2021, 10:37:54 AM »
How practically could one orient magnetite particles to produce a vertical field?  And would that also charge a battery without no drag on the vehicle?

Could one do this "in a lab" and demonstrate the concept?  (I'm sure it could be modeled as well.)  Then you'd have a "vehicle" passing this vertical field and charging a battery (or generating current) with no drag on its passage.


betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
« Reply #596 on: August 15, 2021, 10:50:24 AM »
How practically could one orient magnetite particles to produce a vertical field?  And would that also charge a battery without no drag on the vehicle?

Could one do this "in a lab" and demonstrate the concept?  (I'm sure it could be modeled as well.)  Then you'd have a "vehicle" passing this vertical field and charging a battery (or generating current) with no drag on its passage.
In a concrete roadway? I am not sure. In a hard drive? Your computer does it millions of times per second when you're writing data ;)

That was the first question I had--when you build the road, and you have a lot of ferrous particles embedded in the roadway, how do you make sure that the magnetic fields all align with each other rather than aligning randomly? You have to have a way to magnetize the road in the specific alignment you need. I'd be fairly certain you can do this horizontally transverse to the direction of travel rather easily, but whether it can be done vertically may or may not be so easy...

In a hard drive we do it with multiple magnetic sub-layers, where the layers basically help orient the field properly to write data. But that would be a very complicated process to do something even remotely similar in road-building. But it may not be necessary, because you're not trying to orient these fields at microscopic levels, you're doing it on a MUCH bigger scale. 

Either way, I do stand by that doing it either vertically or horizontal/transverse would charge the battery with no drag on the vehicle's passage. 

Cincydawg

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Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
« Reply #597 on: August 15, 2021, 10:58:30 AM »
Either way, I do stand by that doing it either vertically or horizontal/transverse would charge the battery with no drag on the vehicle's passage.
I'm missing something (again).  This sounds to me like perpetual motion.

utee94

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Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
« Reply #598 on: August 15, 2021, 10:58:58 AM »
It's all theoretical of course, and I have my doubts that the pavement could be laid in an economical way that would make it all worthwhile.

But in theory it's fun to think about.

Cincydawg

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Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
« Reply #599 on: August 15, 2021, 11:05:05 AM »
If one can generate current without resistance, one has a perpetual motion machine.  Think of doing this on a lab bench.

Generators won't turn on their own obviously, they need power of some sort to pass those windings around a magnetic field.  We've probably all turned a hand turned crank generator, it get's hard to turn.

I'm missing something.

Cincydawg

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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
« Reply #601 on: August 15, 2021, 04:49:36 PM »
I'm missing something (again).  This sounds to me like perpetual motion.
If one can generate current without resistance, one has a perpetual motion machine.  Think of doing this on a lab bench.

Generators won't turn on their own obviously, they need power of some sort to pass those windings around a magnetic field.  We've probably all turned a hand turned crank generator, it get's hard to turn.

I'm missing something.
Yeah, the bit that you're missing is that there IS resistance, but it's not in a direction that matters.

Vertical changes in magnetic force have to balance with gravity and the car's suspension, NOT balance with the car's electric motors. 

 

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