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Topic: Electric Vehicle News Items
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Cincydawg · « **Reply #2702 on:** **Today** at 10:16:03 AM »

The independent car mags are mostly saying batteries last longer than an engine. They both degrade over time. I THINK battery life is overblown as a concern mostly because of some early publicized failures. I don't view this as a real issue with a 2 year old EV. They also come with a 100,000 mile warranty standard.

Existing EV batteries may last up to 40% longer than expected | Stanford Report

Don’t Worry About Replacing Your EV Battery

How Long Do Electric Car Batteries Last?

A thing that can happen is a relative few fail early and make the news, so folks over generalize not realizing the vast majority last a long long time.

Mainstream EVs have only been around for a decade or so, and only time will tell what the durability curve looks like in 20 years, but all signs point to EV batteries lasting at least as long as internal-combustion engines and transmissions under normal use conditions.
According to a widely cited Recurrent study published earlier this year, most EVs experience a five- to 10-percent loss in capacity in their first 40,000 miles, then level off and maintain around 80 to 90 percent of their original capacity to 100,000 miles and beyond.
While relatively few EVs have been around long enough to hit 200,000 miles, Tesla’s 2022 Impact Report touted an average retention of 88 percent battery capacity at that milestone. Some individuals with particularly excessive driving habits, as in 74,000 miles a year or more, have reported as little as 20 percent degradation on packs with over 350,000 miles on them.
EV Battery Care
The second piece of good news is that it shouldn't be hard for the average driver to implement smart battery practices to significantly extend the pack's lifespan. In particular, through intelligent temperature and state-of-charge (SoC) management and judicious use of high-powered fast-charging, EV owners should be able to keep their batteries going for decades.
Ford
Ford F-150 Lightning.
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To protect the battery life of their EVs, owners will find that it’s worth understanding the basic science behind battery management, and the big assist that comes from smart technologies that are built into these cars. Technologies that should continue to improve with time.
Temperature Control
Take temperature control. As a general rule, lithium-ion batteries, the most common type in EVs and consumer electronics, perform best and last longest when kept away from temperature extremes. That’s roughly within the range tolerable to humans, about 50 to 110 degrees Fahrenheit.
You may have noticed that your phone won’t always charge in a hot environment like on a car dashboard, or that it may die unexpectedly when low on charge on a very cold day. In addition to introducing unreliability, these temperature extremes can cause physical damage to the molecular structure of the battery, permanently reducing its capacity and life expectancy. The same is true for the batteries in EVs.
Porsche
The Porsche Taycan’s cooling system.
To avoid the temperature problems that plague phones, most EVs have systems to keep their batteries at optimal temperature when necessary. Coolant lines connecting the battery to the radiator and heaters regulate the battery’s temperature despite extreme internal or external variables.
This allows the battery to shed the heat it generates when quickly discharging (for example, through hard acceleration) or charging (like at a DC fast-charging station). Walk by any DCFC station, and you’ll likely hear the vehicle fans whirring furiously to cool the battery.
Similarly, most EVs work to keep the battery warm on cold days. Because letting the battery drop below freezing temperatures can also damage its internal structure, an EV is usually designed to use some of the energy from the battery (or from the wall if it's plugged in) to keep the battery at a safe temperature. This is the principal cause of cold weather "vampire drain," a term used to capture an EV’s loss of range while parked.
That loss can be as high as 10 percent a day in extremely cold temperatures and is another good reason to keep your EV plugged in, especially if you are going to leave it for days at a time. Early EV enthusiasts may recall the battery failures of the first-generation Nissan Leaf were largely caused by its complete lack of active temperature management technology, a costly mistake unlikely to be repeated by other EV manufacturers.
State of Charge
Owners can also preserve battery life by monitoring state of charge, a term that refers to the amount of energy stored in a battery relative to its overall capacity. Here, too, the key is to avoid extremes. As a general rule, batteries do not like being either 100-percent full or totally empty, as both states can damage the molecular structure of the battery much like extreme heat or cold. The main reason that the batteries in our consumer electronics tend to die so quickly is they are typically charged to 100 percent (and left plugged in) and then run down to nearly 0 daily.
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In contrast, avoiding damage to your EV battery by maintaining a healthy SoC is pretty easy, since we don’t need to work our vehicles nearly as hard as our handheld electronics on a regular basis. A typical U.S. driver travels only around 40 miles per day, a very small fraction of the 200 to 400 mile range seen on most EVs. This means that with normal use and daily charging, a battery is highly unlikely to see very low SoCs.
At the other end of the SoC spectrum, EVs come with software settings that can be used to keep the battery from pointlessly overcharging. Most manufacturers recommend setting the system to stop charging at 80 percent unless that extra capacity is required for a long trip.
In fact, some manufacturers build some safety margin into the battery management system itself, creating a "usable" capacity that is actually 5 to 10 percent less than the real total capacity of the battery, and using a software lock that prevents the battery from fully charging or discharging. In this way, the battery is kept in the safest, least damaging range of operation. (This is the same principle behind Apple’s recent rollout of “Optimized Battery Charging,” a feature that stops your iPhone from fully charging until just before you are expected to unplug, minimizing the amount of time the battery spends at 100 percent SoC.)
George Rose//Getty Images
An EV plugged into an Electrify America fast-charge station.
Charging Speed
A third way owners can preserve their EV batteries is to limit the speed at which they regularly charge. Very high-speed fast charging may be convenient but can cause a phenomenon called ion plating on the anode. That’s bad: lithium ions are supposed to migrate into the anode's graphite layers, not accumulate on the anode’s surface. Plating seriously degrades battery performance over time.
Fortunately, for most owners, fast charging is rarely necessary and can be reserved for road trips, and the occasional fast-charging top-up is not going to measurably damage your battery. On the other hand, if public fast chargers are your primary charging option, because you live in a city or otherwise lack access to home charging, consider whether you really need the fastest 350 kW chargers for your weekly charge or have the time to opt instead for slower, and less damaging, chargers in the 25 to 70 kW range.
Some years ago, Tesla taxi fleets in Amsterdam were rapidly degrading their batteries through daily use of 120-kW Superchargers. Tesla later provided taxi fleets with private 60-kW Superchargers and has since installed 72-kW “urban” superchargers in dense cities around the world where owners may rely on them as their primary source of energy.
The Second Life of Your EV Battery
Unlike ICE vehicles whose ultimate fate is often engine or transmission failure, EVs are equipped with batteries that are much more likely to remain functional in the long term, albeit with decreased capacity. Excluding a few notable EV battery recalls, only between one and two percent of EVs have had their battery replaced over the past decade, though unsurprisingly early models tend to have seen more replacements.
That said, despite EV batteries’ long expected lifespan and high level of reliability, failures are of course still possible, and the cost of replacing a battery after expiration of the warranty can be daunting.
Over the last couple years a few viral stories have circulated about early Tesla owners facing $20,000 bills to replace their out-of-warranty batteries—like the one about the Finnish owner who blew up his Model S in apparent protest. These anecdotes should be viewed in the proper context. If the engine of your 10-year-old Mercedes S-class failed and you brought it to your local Mercedes dealer for a new replacement, you would be quoted a similarly hair-raising price.
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In practice, however, you are much more likely to have your old car serviced by a third-party mechanic that will either source a used replacement engine, or have the original engine rebuilt at a fraction of the cost of a new one from Mercedes.
VCG//Getty Images
An EV battery recycling plant in China.
It is certainly easier right now to find someone to rebuild your engine than to replace a module in your battery pack, but that won’t be true for long. If anything, mending a battery pack is faster and easier than an engine rebuild, so as EVs become more common on the used and out-of-warranty markets, we can also expect an increase in the number of third-party servicers like the Electrified Garage to open up and repair battery packs–that is, by replacing individual cells or modules in a degraded battery–rather than swapping out the entire pack at much higher cost. Right-to-repair laws (and lawsuits) should ensure that third-party mechanics and home tinkerers are able to purchase the necessary parts and tools to repair their vehicles for years to come.
There’s also the separate prospect of recovering some value through EV battery resale. This is an interesting point of difference between ICE cars and EVs. A blown engine might be good for only scrap value, but the modular structure of a battery pack makes its reuse a viable and more lucrative alternative. This is because a pack typically consists of hundreds or thousands of individual cells, clustered in a dozen or so modules.
Even in the case of a pack "failure," where enough cells in the pack fail to render the pack unusable in a car, the remaining healthy cells and modules can be combined with other good ones to assemble a "new" healthy pack. Components of your battery could also find use in EV conversion projects or even get repurposed as stationary storage to help stabilize the electrical grid. Because of this, individual modules from Tesla battery packs tend to sell for significant money on the secondary market.
Rivian
The Bottom Line
Inside any new EV lives a very large and expensive battery that represents a significant portion of the car’s value. But thanks to the industry consensus on EV battery warranties and the basic science of battery preservation, for most people, battery life is a reason to buy EVs, not avoid them.
With a little care, EV owners can generally expect batteries to keep their EV running for many years—and to potentially find a fate other than the scrapyard when they finally stop.
Headshot of William Watts title=Headshot of William Watts

William Watts
Contributing Editor
An aerospace engineer with a life-long passion for anything with wheels or wings, Will has spent his career building everything from bicycles to bathrooms.

He once ran an after-hours communal car workshop in an abandoned South Bronx laundromat, restoring his first and last car, a Datsun 240z, and had a Suzuki SV650 blown up by ConEd.

Watts later followed his name and joined Tesla’s charging team, and now writes about EVs and infrastructure.

utee94 · « **Reply #2703 on:** **Today** at 10:17:24 AM »

Quote from: FearlessF on Today at 10:11:40 AM

you won't be buying a used EV

Correct, and a huge number of other people won't, as well.

Quote from: FearlessF on Today at 10:14:29 AM

Teslas have been around for over 15 years, should be some data on those batteries and replacement costs and resale value

They haven't ever really existed in a free market. So there's probably some data abut battery durability, but there's no relevant data about resale value.

betarhoalphadelta · « **Reply #2704 on:** **Today** at 10:17:44 AM »

As I've said many times, the biggest issue is battery cost. That *has* to improve to make EVs viable.

EVs cost less to operate per mile than gas cars, particularly with home charging. I believe that's been well established at this point.

But right now EVs simply cost too much. There's very little "apples to apples" comparison out there today, because the cost of the battery has pushed many automakers to only offer EV in luxury models or in traditional models but only with the highest of the high luxury trim packages.

Absent the federal tax credit, the Model 3 starts in similar price ranges to a Lexus or BMW sedan, but I don't think it is anywhere NEAR as luxurious.

Chevy is getting into a better position--apparently the base Equinox EV starts at $33K while the ICEV version starts at $28K. The Bolt will apparently start around $26K, but it's an econobox--that does put it about $4K above a base Corolla and $6K above a base Chevy Trax, $3K above a base Trailblazer. I'm assuming that those numbers aren't hiding the federal tax credit, but I could be wrong on that.

The simple fact is that if you have to buy a more expensive car up front--and then potentially finance it meaning you're paying interest on that higher price until it's paid off--you have to realize that you need those operational saving just to pay off the higher up front cost... And the resale value of EVs is heretofore unknown (but has not been so durable in the past), so you need to factor in what you'll get out when you sell / trade in too.

It's all about the battery.

utee94 · « **Reply #2705 on:** **Today** at 10:18:01 AM »

Quote from: Cincydawg on Today at 10:16:03 AM

The independent car mags are mostly saying batteries last longer than an engine. They both degrade over time. I THINK battery life is overblown as a concern mostly because of some early publicized failures. I don't view this as a real issue with a 2 year old EV. They also come with a 100,000 mile warranty standard.

If that 1000,000 mile warranty is 100% transferable, then that will help the situation.

Cincydawg · « **Reply #2706 on:** **Today** at 10:19:07 AM »

I am speculating that by 2030, parity will have been reached, overall. And a 2028 EV at that point could be a logical choice for many.

The cost of gasoline and recharging likely will still be an issue rarely discussed.

Cincydawg · « **Reply #2707 on:** **Today** at 10:19:53 AM »

Yes, a 10-year/100,000-mile EV warranty is generally transferable to the second owner, but the specific coverage and duration for the second owner depend on the manufacturer. For some manufacturers, like Kia and Hyundai, the 10-year/100,000-mile powertrain warranty is shortened to 5-year/60,000 miles for the second owner, while the federally mandated 8-year/100,000-mile battery warranty still applies and is transferable. Tesla's New Vehicle Limited Warranty also transfers to the next owner, and the details will follow the vehicle's VIN.

utee94 · « **Reply #2708 on:** **Today** at 10:20:51 AM »

Please don't ever copy/pasta from Reddit again.

FearlessF · « **Reply #2709 on:** **Today** at 10:21:49 AM »

I've never been to Reddit

Cincydawg · « **Reply #2710 on:** **Today** at 10:25:22 AM »

I'm not even sure what redit comprises.

847badgerfan · « **Reply #2711 on:** **Today** at 10:27:15 AM »

Quote from: FearlessF on Today at 10:01:09 AM

it won't happen cause politicians know they get voted out if they raise taxes but, IMO it's a better plan than a mandate

They do?

betarhoalphadelta · « **Reply #2712 on:** **Today** at 10:38:54 AM »

Quote from: utee94 on Today at 10:10:26 AM

The laws of physics dictate that using current battery technology, degradation must occur over time. To what extent is debatable. The car companies and battery companies will, no doubt, provide best-case scenarios. While reality is likely to be somewhat different.

I think what is being said is that the concern that batteries were just going to be popping off left and right is not being proven correct via OWNER/USER experience, regardless of anything the car/battery companies say. Battery degradation is real, but it doesn't seem to occur at a rate that in meaningful with modern battery handling techniques (thermal management, charge management, etc). It seems that the idea that batteries won't last was just anti-EV folks spreading FUD.

That said, I think there's a lot that concerns me about a used EV in this regard, because my understanding is that battery life is at least somewhat dependent on how the battery is treated. As I understand it, an EV that is charged at home at L2 rates and is basically never charged past 80% is a lot different than a battery that has seen the bulk of its charging being L3 and regularly charges to 100%.

On top of that, that's also the issue for me buying used, because the carmaker that has had the longest time and the highest car sales volume to climb the learning curve is Tesla, and I won't buy a Tesla. So when my next vehicle purchase occurs, if I go EV it has to be a company that's been in the game long enough and shipped enough cars over time that I trust they've climbed the learning curve as well.

But all that said, I return to my first point--the concern about EV battery life seems to be overblown based on user experience.

utee94 · « **Reply #2713 on:** **Today** at 10:42:36 AM »

Quote from: betarhoalphadelta on Today at 10:38:54 AM

I think what is being said is that the concern that batteries were just going to be popping off left and right is not being proven correct via OWNER/USER experience, regardless of anything the car/battery companies say. Battery degradation is real, but it doesn't seem to occur at a rate that in meaningful with modern battery handling techniques (thermal management, charge management, etc). It seems that the idea that batteries won't last was just anti-EV folks spreading FUD.

That said, I think there's a lot that concerns me about a used EV in this regard, because my understanding is that battery life is at least somewhat dependent on how the battery is treated. As I understand it, an EV that is charged at home at L2 rates and is basically never charged past 80% is a lot different than a battery that has seen the bulk of its charging being L3 and regularly charges to 100%.

On top of that, that's also the issue for me buying used, because the carmaker that has had the longest time and the highest car sales volume to climb the learning curve is Tesla, and I won't buy a Tesla. So when my next vehicle purchase occurs, if I go EV it has to be a company that's been in the game long enough and shipped enough cars over time that I trust they've climbed the learning curve as well.

But all that said, I return to my first point--the concern about EV battery life seems to be overblown based on user experience.

But this is exactly what I'm getting at. Only a substantial warranty to insure me against MY battery on MY used EV being an early failure, is going to give me enough assurance to buy a used EV.

betarhoalphadelta · « **Reply #2714 on:** **Today** at 11:07:26 AM »

Quote from: utee94 on Today at 10:42:36 AM

But this is exactly what I'm getting at. Only a substantial warranty to insure me against MY battery on MY used EV being an early failure, is going to give me enough assurance to buy a used EV.

Yep. Ideally it would be easy to export a battery history from the car software that could be sent to a potential buyer, but I'm not sure if that's a thing with any EV maker yet.

I do believe that some (most?) of the EV makers have some sort of "battery health" metric built into their car software. But as mention, that could be an overly rosy measurement and I don't know how much to trust it.

FearlessF · « **Reply #2715 on:** **Today** at 11:38:30 AM »

don't buy used from Kansas, the temp extremes are awful

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Topic: Electric Vehicle News Items

Cincydawg

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utee94

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betarhoalphadelta

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