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The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: Cincydawg on January 07, 2022, 12:27:05 PM

Title: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on January 07, 2022, 12:27:05 PM
FedEx, Walmart Ink Deals for GM BrightDrop Electric Delivery Vans (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/fedex-walmart-deals-electric-delivery-vans-gm-brightdrop/?sm_id=organic_fb_MT_trueanthem&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=&utm_source=&fbclid=IwAR2s_ZiZKbDg2otoQdXN4mXZtf7Mkm1V9pNWZmJCyMZdylnJWDkrElXnB84)

(https://i.imgur.com/RjIOFUI.png)

I think this, with trucks and SUVs, is where the money will be for automakers, more than sedans etc.

I also am coming to realize it's coming faster than I figured.  We may hit 50% new sales by 2030.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on January 07, 2022, 12:36:02 PM
if GM can make then fast enough

saw a truckload of new Vettes in Chamberlain, SD yesterday morning.  All wrapped in while plastic.  It was 12 below zero.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MrNubbz on January 08, 2022, 07:57:16 AM


Imagine.......if all the cars stranded on I-95 had been electric…🤔
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on January 08, 2022, 03:28:55 PM
what's the difference if a stranded vehicle runs out of battery or gasoline?

perhaps a 5 gallon gas can is easier and quicker to resolve the issue???
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on January 08, 2022, 03:36:11 PM
I'm guessing there weren't many EVs in this group...................

ISLAMABAD (AP) — At least 22 people, including 10 children, died in a popular mountain resort town in Pakistan after being stuck in their vehicles overnight during a heavy snowstorm as temperatures plummeted, officials said Saturday.

Most of the victims died of hypothermia, officials said. Among them was an Islamabad police officer and seven other members of his family, fellow police officer Atiq Ahmed said.

More than 4 feet (1 meter) of snow fell in the area of the Murree Hills resort overnight Friday and early Saturday, trapping thousands of cars on roadways, said Interior Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed. The snow was so severe that heavy equipment brought in to clear it initially got stuck during the night, said Umar Maqbool, assistant commissioner for the town of Murree. Temperatures fell to minus 8 degrees Celsius (17.6 degrees Fahrenheit).
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on January 08, 2022, 03:40:16 PM
what's the difference if a stranded vehicle runs out of battery or gasoline?

perhaps a 5 gallon gas can is easier and quicker to resolve the issue???
You can heat your car by running your engine periodically with an ICE, but with a battery, when it runs out, which would be fairly soon, you are toast.  Or an icicle.

I am guessing the battery would run down much faster than a gasoline tank if both are half full.

And if a slew of cars were out of battery power, you'd need a "wrecker" with a generator to service them all.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on January 08, 2022, 03:47:04 PM
I'm guessing that the battery doesn't run down quickly if the vehicle isn't moving, but I'm just guessing

you also don't need to clear the tail pipe for fear of carbon monoxide poisoning
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on January 08, 2022, 03:48:41 PM
They use a heat pump for heat (and AC).  It will drain the battery, I'm not sure how fast.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MrNubbz on January 16, 2022, 10:08:20 AM
what's the difference if a stranded vehicle runs out of battery or gasoline?

perhaps a 5 gallon gas can is easier and quicker to resolve the issue???
pretty easy to get gas to a car how many charging vehicles are availible - not a normal jump start



https://youtu.be/0OB-1qv0bKc?t=186
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 01, 2022, 02:54:47 PM
https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/31/tech/alice-eviation-test-flight/index.html

Alice, the first all-electric passenger airplane, prepares to fly

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Mdot21 on February 01, 2022, 03:32:04 PM
https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/31/tech/alice-eviation-test-flight/index.html
Pretty damn cool but according to the article it can only fly for about 1 hr and hit top speeds of 287mph. 

Need more of both. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on February 01, 2022, 05:15:10 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/Aqbqs9O.png)


Thor Industries, an RV manufacturing company that owns several brands including Airstream, is showing a concept electric camper van with range of 300 miles:

https://www.motortrend.com/news/thor-vision-vehicle-concept-electric-rv-van/


(https://i.imgur.com/NlAFhWK.jpg)


And an Electrified Airstream Concept:


(https://i.imgur.com/nUcV6N9.png)
https://www.airstream.com/estream/
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 01, 2022, 05:51:01 PM
Delivery vans make sense to me as EVs perhaps over anything else.  RVs being an EV is a kind of cool concept, campgrounds could be equipped with FCs.  But delivery vans are where it's at, along with work pickups.  Where will we get the additional electricity on the grid?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on February 01, 2022, 05:58:52 PM
Delivery vans make sense to me as EVs perhaps over anything else.  RVs being an EV is a kind of cool concept, campgrounds could be equipped with FCs.  But delivery vans are where it's at, along with work pickups.  Where will we get the additional electricity on the grid?
It's already quite common for campgrounds to have 30A and 50A hookups.  State parks, national parks, municipal campgrounds, and private RV lots all over the country are already equipped to handle delivering power at those currents.

300 miles is less range than I'd want in an RV, it's not uncommon for me to travel 400-450 miles in a day for camping.  But there's a decent sized market segment that this would probably work for.  

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Mdot21 on February 01, 2022, 06:04:22 PM
if all cars, trucks, semi-trucks, and RV's go electric, we're going to all be consuming more electricity. Like....A LOT more. And unless all this new surge of electricity comes from solar & wind - we're just going to be swapping out gasoline and diesel for coal and natural gas. These figures are from an article in the NYT from 2018 - so it's few years back, but - 34% of all electricity produced in US are from power plants run on Natural Gas, and 30% from coal. Nuclear plants are 20%. Hydroelectric is 7%. Wind is 6%. Solar is just 1% and oil is 1%. 

Unless they ramp up solar and nuclear power production drastically - does not make a whole lot sense to me to switch to tens of millions and eventually hundreds of millions of EV's on the road. These cars are all going to need juice every few days- and that juice has to come from somewhere.

And have you guys ever seen the kind of devastation and pollution that mining for the natural resources that go into the batteries for EV's causes? There are entire toxic black lakes in China as a result of mining for the raw materials that make up EV batteries - and there are essentially child slaves in Africa in the Congo forced to mine for rare earth minerals that also go into EV batteries. Some children as young as 6 years old have been documented to be working the mines in the Congo. 70% of all the cobalt produced in the entire world comes from the Congo.

Yet no one really talks about any of this. It's as if people think just switching to battery powered vehicles will simply solve everything - and never think about the unintended problems or consequences of doing so might bring about.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 01, 2022, 06:16:11 PM
Coal and nuclear are around 20% each, solar/wind/hydro is close to 20.  The rest is NG.  There is very little planned nuclear expansion in the US, two new power reactors coming on line fairly soon in GA and that's it.  Small modular reactors COULD come into play, in time.  The calculated increased in additional power needed if everything was an EV ranges from 20-30% MORE, and a lot of that at night.  And no, we don't have a plan.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Gigem on February 02, 2022, 12:53:26 PM
My understanding is that power coming from centralized plants is cleaner than millions of combustion engines no matter if it’s coal or gas. I know when I was around fired equipment we had very strict limits on the CO and NOx we could emit, along with expensive analyzers. 

Even though we will be needed if electric capacity on the grid much of it can come during off peak times. I’m sure most power cos will be more than happy to pump more juice into the grid at night when they have the excess capacity. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 02, 2022, 01:04:45 PM
I've seen the math on EVs and CO2 production, and they are better even if they use coal fired electricity, but not by a whole lot.  A coal fired steam turbine is very efficient obviously and transmissions losses are remarkably small.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Mdot21 on February 02, 2022, 05:08:34 PM
I've seen the math on EVs and CO2 production, and they are better even if they use coal fired electricity, but not by a whole lot.  A coal fired steam turbine is very efficient obviously and transmissions losses are remarkably small.
if it's not better by a whole lot - then what is even the point?

And the emissions are separate fact - we aren't even taking into account the human rights crisis of child slaves mining for cobalt (a mineral that goes in the EV batteries) in the Congo or the environmental crisis of toxic black sludge lakes in Inner Mongolia and China as a result of the mining there for minerals that also go in the EV batteries.

Not sure how you solve these two issues - but as far as production of electricity - I think the solution should be nuclear power plants. I know the public are hesitant to this because of horrific and tragic accidents like Chernobyl, Three Mile Island, and Fukushima - but these were all nuclear reactors that were built in the 60s and 70s. Technology has come a looooong way since then. A plant built in the 2020s is going to be a heckuva lot better than one built in the 60s and 70s. The new nuclear reactors & plants have way more safe guards, are way more efficient, and designed much better.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 02, 2022, 05:47:32 PM
if it's not better by a whole lot - then what is even the point?
The point was that our worst case power generation is coal, and that an BEV powered by coal-produced electricity is still better than an ICEV. A BEV powered by natural gas or nuclear (or solar/renewable) is thus better by a whole lot

It's like a lottery ticket where worst case is a little better than break-even, but there's a big upside above that. You make that bet every damn time. 

Granted, you bring up legit points about the cobalt mining. I know if you look at Tesla they're trying to eliminate cobalt from batteries for that reason... 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 02, 2022, 05:54:18 PM
The transition to EVs will be sporadic until the economic equation makes more sense for the buyer.  The pickup trucks are at that point now, I think.  EVs do have some other advantages in terms of immediate torque and cost per mile, and disadvantages in terms of fill up time.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 02, 2022, 06:09:57 PM
Comparing the Chevrolet Silverado EV with Its Gas-Powered Sibling (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38659110/chevrolet-silverado-ev-vs-gas-silverado/?src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_medium=social-media&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&fbclid=IwAR24oxAIn2V2WcQw_cEawu99YmZy_tSDfOIxMQsgyaM7UhDivgTgvEoRPKM)

The WT will start at around $40,000—$10,000 more than the equivalent gas Silverado—while the top-end RST will be around $100,000, a nearly 50 grand premium over the gas Silverado RSTs. And unlike the gas truck, you'll have to wait till fall 2023 to buy one.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 02, 2022, 07:19:39 PM
General Motors: Key takeaways from GM's Q4 results and 2022 guidance (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/02/general-motors-key-takeaways-from-gms-q4-results-and-2022-guidance.html)

GM expects to produce over 1 million EVs globally by 2025.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Mdot21 on February 02, 2022, 08:52:34 PM
The point was that our worst case power generation is coal, and that an BEV powered by coal-produced electricity is still better than an ICEV. A BEV powered by natural gas or nuclear (or solar/renewable) is thus better by a whole lot.

It's like a lottery ticket where worst case is a little better than break-even, but there's a big upside above that. You make that bet every damn time.

Granted, you bring up legit points about the cobalt mining. I know if you look at Tesla they're trying to eliminate cobalt from batteries for that reason...
And what about the black toxic lakes in China and inner mongolia?

I'm with you....I'm for EV's but only if they solve the human rights and environmental issues around mining for the materials to make the batteries. And also if we ramp up solar, wind, and nuclear power by a lot.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 03, 2022, 07:50:18 AM
Human activities in general despoil the planet, it's a matter of trade offs, I'm not sure there is much that isn't that way.  If we replace coal with nuclear, we would get some advantages, but we'd also replace one large lot of problems with some smaller ones.  Trade offs.

In some theoretical future, perhaps recharging is effected using wind and solar, but those have environmental downsides as well, and perhaps batteries are made without previous metals like cobalt, but whatever replaces them would have some issues.  The entire petrochemical chain has issues beyond just CO2 generation.

Fusion perhaps COULD be the most benign source of energy we could have any time "soon", but ...
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 03, 2022, 09:04:34 AM
Let's do a plan.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on February 03, 2022, 09:05:32 AM
I'd rather do lunch
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Temp430 on February 03, 2022, 09:11:21 AM
How did electric car owners stranded in snow on I-95 in VA fair recently?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 03, 2022, 09:32:24 AM
How did electric car owners stranded in snow on I-95 in VA fair recently?
I did some reading on this and apparently they do about as well as an ICE vehicle in terms of maintaining heat with energy remaining.  It varies depending.

Now of course if either runs out of fuel, they are stuck and need either gasoline, a tow, or an electricity source.    But EVs can keep you reasonably warm for a reasonable period if stuck.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Mdot21 on February 03, 2022, 09:34:56 AM
I did some reading on this and apparently they do about as well as an ICE vehicle in terms of maintaining heat with energy remaining.  It varies depending.

Now of course if either runs out of fuel, they are stuck and need either gasoline, a tow, or an electricity source.    But EVs can keep you reasonably warm for a reasonable period if stuck.
problem with EVs right now is that there aren't charging stations around every single corner across the country like there are gas stations. 

don't think the issue of being stranded without power will be as big of a deal in the future as EV stations take over gas stations. probably going to have to make the EV stations 24/7 however. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 03, 2022, 09:47:53 AM
I just read there are now more charging stations in the US than gasoline stations, but a gas station has multiple pumps and they are counting single charging stations.

I agree this will be less of an issue in the fairly near term.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Mdot21 on February 03, 2022, 10:00:58 AM
I just read there are now more charging stations in the US than gasoline stations, but a gas station has multiple pumps and they are counting single charging stations.

I agree this will be less of an issue in the fairly near term.
they are probably counting charging stations as places in parking garages, offices, hotels, etc. that have one or two charging stations in them. 

in terms of actual charging stations like gas stations - that's not even close.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 03, 2022, 10:25:28 AM
The counted each charger as one entity versus each gas station.  A charging station with 6 chargers counts as 6.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Mdot21 on February 03, 2022, 12:59:26 PM
The counted each charger as one entity versus each gas station.  A charging station with 6 chargers counts as 6.
yeah, which is beyond stupid. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 03, 2022, 01:07:02 PM
Stat of the Week: Comparing the Ratio of EV Charging Stations Versus Gas Stations – EVs Win – EVAdoption (https://evadoption.com/stat-of-the-week-comparing-the-ratio-of-ev-charging-stations-versus-gas-stations-evs-win/)

That's another way of massaging the figures, comparing ratios.  Of course, it doesn't  help if the charging stations are too far apart.

More EV Charging Stations Than Gas Stations, Now What? (cleantechnica.com) (https://cleantechnica.com/2021/11/15/more-ev-charging-stations-than-gas-stations-then-what/)

More spin.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 04, 2022, 10:25:04 AM
Norway Could Phase Out Gas-Burning Cars For EVs Before 2025 (jalopnik.com) (https://jalopnik.com/norway-underestimated-how-fast-it-could-phase-out-gas-b-1848471246?utm_campaign=Jalopnik&utm_content=1643918416&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR07MPD33FROi4D49ydkZFk11OoAI9INKR5y2F3ORxyKB8lYz6Pw-rISY44)

In January of 2022, nearly 84 percent of new cars sold in Norway were EVs, as Bloomberg reports (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-01/ev-sales-hit-record-in-norway-with-fossil-engines-soon-gone?sref=P6Q0mxvj). The report goes on to say that Norway could be three years ahead of schedule for phasing out ICE cars altogether.

I’ll try to be measured about the stat. I wouldn’t want to sensationalize it, but holy shit, the remaining 16(ish) percent means that out of 8,000 new cars sold in January, gas-burning cars numbered a paltry 387 units. In light of these latest stats, Bloomberg reports (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-01/ev-sales-hit-record-in-norway-with-fossil-engines-soon-gone?sref=P6Q0mxvj) Norway may reach it’s ambitious goal of all new cars sold being fully-electric two months from now. From Bloomberg:

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 04, 2022, 01:38:52 PM
First All-Electric Commuter Aircraft Will Soon Take Flight (jalopnik.com) (https://jalopnik.com/first-all-electric-commuter-aircraft-is-weeks-away-from-1848461043?utm_campaign=Jalopnik&utm_content=1643821223&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR0gYFuzXxcsbvIOVG_Ohu7xTeotwcJN7AnaRtULXTbHgeqW_799YhrKm9M)
(https://i.imgur.com/IPmuj0I.png)
With battery technology similar to that of an electric car or a cell phone and 30 minutes of charging, the nine-passenger Alice will be able to fly for one hour, and about 440 nautical miles. The plane has a max cruise speed of 250 kts, or 287 miles per hour. For reference, a Boeing 737 has a max cruise speed of 588 miles per hour. The company, focused exclusively on electric air travel, hopes that electric planes that can fit 20 to 40 passengers will be a reality in seven to 10 years.

If range is one hour at 250 knots, that would mean 250 nm, not 440.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 05, 2022, 08:58:06 AM
Global market share of electric cars more than doubled in 2021 as the EV revolution gains steam - Electrek (https://electrek.co/2022/02/02/global-market-share-of-electric-cars-more-than-doubled-2021/?fbclid=IwAR37zbvgOJ0RB0svmF1J4_pYmYJ7TwiCRIq_Q3ANgMSs_AbyIcidwsNMUuc)

(https://i.imgur.com/yfcRuHg.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on February 05, 2022, 10:29:54 AM
Yup, pretty sure my 2018 was the last combustion engine car I'll ever buy.  It was a 'maybe' at the time, but it's more and more certain with every passing year.

Also, I miss my Jeep. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 05, 2022, 10:33:59 AM
Our car is a 2018 with not many miles, I hope to keep it 10+ years, it works for us.  If I buy something in 2030, it likely would be electric, though I could go for something used with an ICE, I do enjoy the manual transmission, but by then maybe not so much.

We'd like a convertible, in theory, at some point, as a kind of toy.  I don't fit into a Miata.

I think the money to be made in EVs is trucks/vans/SUVs, in the US.  Ford and GM are focused there now.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on February 05, 2022, 10:37:37 AM
Yup, pretty sure my 2018 was the last combustion engine car I'll ever buy.  It was a 'maybe' at the time, but it's more and more certain with every passing year.

Also, I miss my Jeep. 
You're in luck, they currently make a plug-in hybrid Wrangler, with an all-electric version coming in 2023.  You can have the best of all worlds!

(https://i.imgur.com/gnc03X7.jpg)


Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 06, 2022, 09:38:10 AM
EV Company Builds Road That'll Charge Cars As They Drive (businessinsider.com) (https://www.businessinsider.com/public-road-detroit-to-charge-electric-cars-as-they-drive-2022-2?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=sf-bi-ti&fbclid=IwAR0RbWdTQiG2h1pvzH-na40Lot5YUex5hT1Asdk42_IvCvsum99vTpx16kE)



Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on February 06, 2022, 02:12:32 PM
travelling rural South Dakota, Nebraska, and Iowa for the past 4 weeks

haven't noticed an electric vehicle or a charging station

last Friday I woke up in Pierre, SD, route was to Eagle Butte, Bison, Wall, then home to Sewer City, IA

750 mile day

gas in Faith, SD was $3.60 at the pump

doubt there's a charging station within 100 miles of Faith or Bison

Pierre probably has a few, but I don't know
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 06, 2022, 02:15:26 PM
Charging Stations Near Bison, SD | Free EV Electric Charging Stations (bestlocalcardeals.com) (https://bestlocalcardeals.com/bison-sd/electric-charging-stations/)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on February 06, 2022, 02:38:11 PM
Bison to Dickinson 116 miles
Bison to Cannon Ball 159
Bison to Spearfish 129
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Mdot21 on February 06, 2022, 05:24:11 PM
EV Company Builds Road That'll Charge Cars As They Drive (businessinsider.com) (https://www.businessinsider.com/public-road-detroit-to-charge-electric-cars-as-they-drive-2022-2?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=sf-bi-ti&fbclid=IwAR0RbWdTQiG2h1pvzH-na40Lot5YUex5hT1Asdk42_IvCvsum99vTpx16kE)


  • Electreon Wireless is building a mile-long stretch in Detroit that will charge electric cars as the drive on it.
  • The company said the roadway will be fully functional by 2023 for EVs that install a special receiver.
  • Charging infrastructure poses a major hurdle for electric-vehicle adoption.
  • Axios estimates (https://www.axios.com/a-roadway-will-charge-your-ev-while-youre-driving-f2f2ad5b-3735-4948-bc50-b486f076a255.html?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter_axioswhatsnext&stream=science) installing the special receiver will cost about $3,000 to $4,000 per car. Though, Electreon told the publication they hope to get the price closer to $1,000 to $1,500.
that's pretty damn cool and that could be a game changer for EVs.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 07, 2022, 08:26:27 AM
Op-Ed Says EVs Can't Handle Winter Stranding. We Check the Facts (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38883045/electric-cars-snow-cold-fact-check/?utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social-media&fbclid=IwAR16cgJl3jSosP-sGhzGLZAG-E9kcL1ugivy0WAd8Ny87UP5ifGP8DUSO8M)

One interesting note is how EVs are being equipped now to charge other EVs in emergencies, in some cases, which is interesting.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on February 07, 2022, 01:34:51 PM
mobile charging stations

what a concept 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 09, 2022, 10:44:43 AM
Supposedly the Tesla Cybertruck is now delayed until 2023... Putting them at least half a year behind the Ford Lightning release and probably best case on par with the Chevy Silverado EV release.

All that for a hideously ugly thing out of Blade Runner when most of the people wanting an electric truck (people actually using it for work) probably want something that looks like, well, a truck. 

I don't understand, if there are other trucks available, who will actually want that thing?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on February 09, 2022, 10:49:43 AM
Supposedly the Tesla Cybertruck is now delayed until 2023... Putting them at least half a year behind the Ford Lightning release and probably best case on par with the Chevy Silverado EV release.

All that for a hideously ugly thing out of Blade Runner when most of the people wanting an electric truck (people actually using it for work) probably want something that looks like, well, a truck.

I don't understand, if there are other trucks available, who will actually want that thing?
Virtue signalers.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 09, 2022, 10:53:04 AM
Yeah, I think that Tesla "truck" won't do well at all unless somehow the metrics are astonishing.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 09, 2022, 10:59:12 AM
Virtue signalers.
Maybe, but how does the Tesla really signal virtue any more than any other BEV truck? 

Yeah, I think that Tesla "truck" won't do well at all unless somehow the metrics are astonishing.

Possibly true, but knowing Tesla, the metric they think everyone cares about is 0-60 time... For what is basically a work vehicle. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 09, 2022, 11:00:49 AM
Things that matter for folks buying a truck to be used as a truck are pretty clear, and I think Ford and Chevy both hit the mark on that pretty well.

I think maybe a truck with less range, cost, and weight, would also be appealing in a work truck.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on February 09, 2022, 11:09:14 AM
Maybe, but how does the Tesla really signal virtue any more than any other BEV truck?

You said it yourself, those other trucks look like trucks, and therefore are not very good virtue-signaling devices.  If my goal is to signal my virtue, then buying an electric truck that looks almost identical to a regular truck, isn't going to be very effective.

You asked a question-- who will want it? I'm just answering that question.  I don't think it's a particularly large market segment, but it's about the only group of people I can imagine having any real desire to buy one.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 09, 2022, 01:14:00 PM
Why Nissan is moving from the internal combustion engine in Europe (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/09/why-nissan-is-moving-from-the-internal-combustion-engine-in-europe-.html)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 09, 2022, 01:27:10 PM
Roads That Charge Electric Cars Wirelessly Are Springing Up Everywhere! (intelligentliving.co) (https://www.intelligentliving.co/roads-that-charge-electric-cars-wirelessly-springing-up-everywhere/)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on February 09, 2022, 02:43:35 PM
Everywhere.

Sure, Jan.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 09, 2022, 02:48:33 PM
Everywhere is obviously the usual journalistic excess.

Here and there would be a far better description, in terms of accuracy.  But for clicks?

I read elsewhere that induction losses are single digit, like 6%, which is fascinating to me.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 09, 2022, 02:49:24 PM
Our range is induction and it's a marvel, I MUCH prefer it to gas.  We swapped out a perfectly good stove because the wife wanted induction, and I'm glad we did.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 09, 2022, 02:56:34 PM
I think it's a cool concept. The real questions will be cost, efficiency, durability, etc. 

Also, time to market/installation. The BEV market will drive massive installations of DC electric fast charging stations over the next 10 years, and I'd be amazed if we have more than 1,000 miles of inductive charging road installed in the entire nation by that time. Once that happens, nobody will want to bankroll inductive charging roads. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 09, 2022, 02:59:25 PM
In ten years, inductive charging might well still be in the test phase.  But it might still be nice to have even with superchargers all around us.

Maybe somewhere a real highway is built with this and some cars are fitted for it and folks love it, I dunno.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on February 09, 2022, 03:05:29 PM
I think it's a cool concept. The real questions will be cost, efficiency, durability, etc.

Also, time to market/installation. The BEV market will drive massive installations of DC electric fast charging stations over the next 10 years, and I'd be amazed if we have more than 1,000 miles of inductive charging road installed in the entire nation by that time. Once that happens, nobody will want to bankroll inductive charging roads.
Yes I suspect this is how it will go.  Without any real market drivers, there's not ever going to be widespread need or use for inductive charging road surfaces.

I could see it in very limited and specific applications though, maybe.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 09, 2022, 03:08:30 PM
Exactly... And the key is simple...

Who pays for the roads? Who will pay for the electricity for these in-road chargers? 

The government. 

They can barely keep the roads maintained as it is... You think they're gonna afford this? 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 09, 2022, 03:17:34 PM
I think each car would pay a toll for however many miles are driven on the roads, sensors would tell which car was on them.

The GDOT is building a lot of express lanes here separate from the interstate, they are amazingly expensive to build, with gas tax monies.  Maybe they build separate freeways for this concept.  But I agree until it gets going in some real form, not just a mile of test road, its appeal would be very limited.

PROJECT-NorthwestCorridorExpressLanes.pdf (aspirebridge.com) (http://www.aspirebridge.com/magazine/2019Spring/PROJECT-NorthwestCorridorExpressLanes.pdf)

This is the longest bridge in the state now.  The cost is incredible, to me.

The project included three intersecting interstate highways — Interstates 75, 575 and 285 — and 39 bridges. With a cost of $834 million, it is the largest transportation project in Georgia history.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on February 11, 2022, 08:41:25 AM
Exactly... And the key is simple...

Who pays for the roads? Who will pay for the electricity for these in-road chargers?

The government.

They can barely keep the roads maintained as it is... You think they're gonna afford this?
Cali will simply raise taxes, again
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 11, 2022, 08:45:53 AM
The model is akin to that express lane project in GA, nearly a billion dollars paid for by ... users, with tolls.  And supposedly usage is higher than expected, I'm told.  And this is just two lanes separated from the freeway that reverse depending on time of day.  You have to have a "Peach Pass" to use them, it costs $20 I think to install, I don't have one.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 11, 2022, 08:51:49 AM
Exactly... And the key is simple...

Who pays for the roads? Who will pay for the electricity for these in-road chargers?

The government.

They can barely keep the roads maintained as it is... You think they're gonna afford this?
Us?

I've been out of the road business for quite some time, but when I was in it, road construction was funded by motor fuel taxes.

Welp...
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on February 11, 2022, 09:01:35 AM
The model is akin to that express lane project in GA, nearly a billion dollars paid for by ... users, with tolls.  And supposedly usage is higher than expected, I'm told.  And this is just two lanes separated from the freeway that reverse depending on time of day.  You have to have a "Peach Pass" to use them, it costs $20 I think to install, I don't have one.
Tolls pay various entities after the road is built.

Who would pay for these roads to BE built?

Keeping in mind that an inductive charging road surface would be substantially more expensive than a standard road surface.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on February 11, 2022, 09:03:10 AM
the bank extends a loan, then it's paid after the road is built
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on February 11, 2022, 09:03:59 AM
the bank extends a loan, then it's paid after the road is built
Maybe.  Sometimes.

Who guarantees the loan?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 11, 2022, 09:08:55 AM
The state guarantees the loans in the form of municipal bonds.  This has been so successful here they propose a massive plan to extend these express lanes across the top of the Perimeter.  I find it appalling and fascinating at the same time.  It's projected to cost around $11 billion, if built.

New GDOT video shows a Perimeter flush with express lanes, less traffic - Curbed Atlanta (https://atlanta.curbed.com/2020/1/22/21076743/gdot-atlanta-285-perimeter-express-lanes-video)

Along Atlanta’s Perimeter, city officials are lobbying against pricey I-285 toll lanes project - Curbed Atlanta (https://atlanta.curbed.com/2019/6/10/18659700/perimeter-dunwoody-toll-lanes-petition-billion-dollar-285)

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 11, 2022, 09:11:26 AM
Maybe.  Sometimes.

Who guarantees the loan?
You.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 11, 2022, 09:15:07 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/EcclNI4.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 11, 2022, 09:16:00 AM
States can use municipal bonds which enjoy lower interest rates than corporate bonds and lower than some bank loan.  It's a nice "dodge" if you will, for states and localities to build stuff now and pay later.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 11, 2022, 09:45:54 AM
Us?

I've been out of the road business for quite some time, but when I was in it, road construction was funded by motor fuel taxes.

Welp...
Well obviously everything "the government" pays for is from our taxes... Or borrowing and indebting our descendents. 

And yes, fuel taxes will fall. But money is fungible. The leeches in DC will find another way to soak us.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 11, 2022, 10:57:59 AM
There is a highway trust fund paid into with fuel taxes, state taxes are the highest, around 55 cents per gallon, Federal is 18.5 cents I think.

Congress adds to spending with direct spending bills like the recent "infrastructure bill" they passed.  And Congressmen can get special funding for projects in their districts.

The toll road idea is another approach, many early freeways in the north were (and remain) toll roads.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 11, 2022, 11:33:48 AM
To Take Over the World, Dr. EV-il Is Going to Save It—With GM’s EVs (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/gm-ultium-ev-super-bowl-commericial-dr-evil-austin-powers/?sm_id=organic_fb_MT_trueanthem&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=&utm_source=&fbclid=IwAR2SQXOIzFckRz9Ksm5l9i0AQBPnAzxcj4R8k0QscnRt3JJv7_dbn_3_t8E)

That is worth watching I think....
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 11, 2022, 12:48:38 PM
 (https://consent.yahoo.com/v2/collectConsent?sessionId=1_cc-session_0a0a0e03-2255-4efe-a538-742dafd44b86)National Grid to drain electric car batteries at times of peak demand (yahoo.com) (https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/national-grid-drain-electric-car-183023418.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9sLmZhY2Vib29rLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAIc6j333tbsEPBzP_mWms1SbtGrJYaOy8pKqPpg1eCLH1W8sPtDzzrfgzy_URp5ai-K_HQgttPk7-TBhsEQXvbl3jCqJw7_MlWX6Jb_lQxpOwI-j7lA4GuYtGFzkgY0EWW8SPGU-Qdvq5ZGrPNPQ0a0QQAo8I83wFSkisKir0Wko)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 14, 2022, 09:01:01 AM
2024 Chevrolet Silverado EV: What We Know So Far (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/chevrolet/silverado-ev?utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&utm_source=facebook&src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_medium=social-media&fbclid=IwAR0NIYqLn0hqKhHoQ-BEImpgeA7BFpYPihuZrNFbanbMC6Al1q7mDN3zTMI)

I could be wrong, but I'd think the WT with less power and range and cost would be more attractive.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 22, 2022, 01:41:24 PM
Under the skin: How roads could charge your electric car as you drive | Autocar (https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/technology/under-skin-how-roads-could-charge-your-electric-car-you-drive?utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=News&fbclid=IwAR0CL0gju3WGiukWAM-pQgUKz0ov9YeISdOL7JYISZ7umIV9PTeuD66m32M)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 22, 2022, 01:43:23 PM
I was at the VW dealer for an oil change today.  They had posters out for their new EV and had taken a lot of orders for it, but no model on hand.

The oil change was $91, but it's once a year, so not too bad.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on February 24, 2022, 08:38:36 PM
I pay the Chevy dealer $65

8 quarts of 0W-20 full synthetic oil

but, I know a guy

I've been changing it myself when the weather is warm
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Honestbuckeye on February 24, 2022, 09:11:15 PM
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a35368171/2020-ford-mustang-shelby-gt500-lightning-lap/

More my speed. 

Only this years version. 

https://www.caranddriver.com/ford/mustang-shelby-gt500
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 25, 2022, 08:36:36 AM
Neat car, the performance cars are all neat cars, I just don't feel a desire to own one now.

I like "sporty" a lot.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 25, 2022, 08:43:57 AM
How Far Can You Tow With an Electric Truck? (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/features/how-far-can-you-tow-with-electric-truck-range/?sm_id=organic_fb_MT_trueanthem&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=&utm_source=&fbclid=IwAR3kXr-9R_KHsZtt7WXbRkw5UMM6vN9auFZq6CXvsiXQIckvee9k59Xsae4)

Towing roughly 9,000 pounds with a Rivian R1T reduced our driving range by 45 percent on average, slightly better than Rivian's estimate of a 50 percent reduction when towing the maximum 11,000 pounds the truck is capable of. Our range dropped from an EPA-estimated 314 miles to as low as 170 miles. For context, that's 30 miles farther than a standard Nissan Leaf can cover on a single charge but less than most other EVs.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 25, 2022, 09:37:14 AM
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a35368171/2020-ford-mustang-shelby-gt500-lightning-lap/

More my speed.

Only this years version.

https://www.caranddriver.com/ford/mustang-shelby-gt500
Doesn't even offer a manual.

I'm out. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on February 25, 2022, 09:44:43 AM
170 miles towing doesn't even get me to Dallas or Houston.  

ICE will be around for a long while because without some new technology in batteries that we haven't even discovered yet, it's not ever going to be capable of doing the things that a lot of users require.

I keep on wondering why hybrids aren't more prevalent in the truck/full-sized SUV market segment.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Honestbuckeye on February 25, 2022, 10:29:16 AM
Doesn't even offer a manual.

I'm out.
Yes-I guess FORD wanted this car to win in competition, on road courses. Even a professional driver using a manual could never compete with the dual clutch seven speed automatic that shifts instantly on its own or when using the paddle shifters.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 25, 2022, 10:44:56 AM
Yes-I guess FORD wanted this car to win in competition, on road courses. Even a professional driver using a manual could never compete with the dual clutch seven speed automatic that shifts instantly on its own or when using the paddle shifters.
Eh. Most of the people who buy this thing won't ever see a race track and wouldn't know what to do if they did. 

IMHO actually snicking through gears with a short-throw shift lever and a clutch adds to the visceral satisfaction of driving a performance car in a way that an automatic or flappy paddles do not. 

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 25, 2022, 11:06:13 AM
I keep on wondering why hybrids aren't more prevalent in the truck/full-sized SUV market segment.
We've discussed this of course, I think at some point someone will provide that Diesel-electric hybrid that runs like a locomotive.  Maybe it would have say 40 miles of range on batteries.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on February 25, 2022, 11:09:59 AM
40 miles?

Might as well just have a diesel
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on February 25, 2022, 11:26:15 AM
Eh. Most of the people who buy this thing won't ever see a race track and wouldn't know what to do if they did.

IMHO actually snicking through gears with a short-throw shift lever and a clutch adds to the visceral satisfaction of driving a performance car in a way that an automatic or flappy paddles do not.


(https://scontent.ffod1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/273698382_3086477548260453_476010823236561949_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=5IUntc5oviQAX-ybO01&_nc_ht=scontent.ffod1-1.fna&oh=00_AT_lupaArdXuOZpcrsnHatVbArWcEVN7eqi0lhBVz6tVGQ&oe=621DE4F4)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Honestbuckeye on February 25, 2022, 12:35:50 PM
Eh. Most of the people who buy this thing won't ever see a race track and wouldn't know what to do if they did.

IMHO actually snicking through gears with a short-throw shift lever and a clutch adds to the visceral satisfaction of driving a performance car in a way that an automatic or flappy paddles do not.


Agreed.  Not disputable. 

most people that buy true performance cars will never track them.

But- many will.  And if they track this car, and MANY do- they will have substantially better lap times than they could ever accomplish with a manual. And Ford came right out and said that’s why they don’t offer a manual.  Well- that and it is way too much power for that kind of gear box.

Those that are serious about taking this particular vehicle on a road course are opting the $18000 carbon performance package, which includes rear seat delete, carbon ceramic brakes, carbon wheels and a much bigger ( uglier) rear wing. 

but-let’s be honest.  Cars like this are not for most people.  Not their cup of tea. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 25, 2022, 12:52:06 PM
40 miles?

Might as well just have a diesel
The idea is to cover a lot of running about town with electric only.  Maybe it's 60 miles, I dunno.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 25, 2022, 01:42:30 PM
How GM Is Aiming to Master the EV Universe—and Topple Tesla—by 2025 (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/features/gm-dominate-electric-vehicle-market-topple-tesla/?sm_id=organic_fb_MT_trueanthem&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=&utm_source=&fbclid=IwAR1_39ch5fpoXFnFV3KuKeO59Bv0M4PiJtvzg9zo3VnfYbYFeDtE_z1oFzY)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 25, 2022, 02:12:58 PM
Found this funny:

https://www.torquenews.com/14335/will-tesla-cybertruck-ever-be-released

Basically it's a journalist offering every Tesla excuse in the book for why the Cybertruck hasn't yet seen the light of day. As if Tesla is making a "choice" not to release it. 

The Cybertruck hasn't released because Tesla can't build it. Maybe that's due to technology (i.e. 4680 batteries not yet fully there), or maybe it's supply chain, or maybe they can build it but it won't yet hit reliability metrics, or maybe it's lack of production capacity, or maybe it's simple economics--they can't build enough of them and sell them for a price that will make a profit to devote a production line to them

But with 1M pre-orders, and with the likely modeled profit for a Cybertruck--particularly if they start with the highest-priced trim levels as they've done with other models--being higher than that for a Model 3 or Y, the only reason it's not in production is because they either can't build it or can't do so profitably. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Mdot21 on February 25, 2022, 03:06:41 PM
How GM Is Aiming to Master the EV Universe—and Topple Tesla—by 2025 (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/features/gm-dominate-electric-vehicle-market-topple-tesla/?sm_id=organic_fb_MT_trueanthem&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=&utm_source=&fbclid=IwAR1_39ch5fpoXFnFV3KuKeO59Bv0M4PiJtvzg9zo3VnfYbYFeDtE_z1oFzY)
I'll believe it when I see it. Tesla is run by a legitimate genius and visionary, and GM is run by.....some woman from Michigan that is just your run of the mill CEO who rose up the ranks at a boring auto company she's worked at forever. There is nothing exceptional about her.

Tesla still owns roughly 80% of the EV market as of 2021. That is bound to change with all cars going electric and every manufacturer entering the fray, they won't own 80% - there's no way- that will go way down - but they will still without a doubt be the major player in EVs. Their product, tech, and innovation is still years ahead and just better than everyone else's. And it will remain better for the foreseeable future. They also have one thing that is literally invaluable that none of the others have - BRAND. Tesla = EV's the way Apple = Smartphone. And Tesla is a luxury brand. GM isn't.

GM has a brand/image problem. They spend $2.7 to $4.5 billion a year advertising over the last 6 years, changes every year- but that's the min and max ad spend. Tesla spends exactly....zero dollars advertising. Tesla has the cult-like brand following, and they blow up on media and social media whenever they announce anything- and they do that all while spend exactly ZERO dollars doing so. GM can't do this- nor will they ever will have this ability or a cult like following. It's organic to Tesla/Musk - and it's worth more than any amount of money can buy.

GM is going to production with a $200,000+ electric Cadillac sedan. Literally no one is going to buy this. The only vehicle they make and actually sell high quantities of that is north of $100,000 is the Escalade.

I don't want to hear the prognostications from all the Tesla haters - they've been bashing Tesla and predicting it's doom from the start- and every time Tesla is on the brink - Musk just puts his nose to the grindstone throws all the chips to the center and comes out on top. Won't be any different here. Some people are just born different and better than everyone else. There are very few of these people on earth and in life. Musk is one of these people.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Mdot21 on February 25, 2022, 03:10:24 PM
Found this funny:

https://www.torquenews.com/14335/will-tesla-cybertruck-ever-be-released

Basically it's a journalist offering every Tesla excuse in the book for why the Cybertruck hasn't yet seen the light of day. As if Tesla is making a "choice" not to release it.

The Cybertruck hasn't released because Tesla can't build it. Maybe that's due to technology (i.e. 4680 batteries not yet fully there), or maybe it's supply chain, or maybe they can build it but it won't yet hit reliability metrics, or maybe it's lack of production capacity, or maybe it's simple economics--they can't build enough of them and sell them for a price that will make a profit to devote a production line to them.

But with 1M pre-orders, and with the likely modeled profit for a Cybertruck--particularly if they start with the highest-priced trim levels as they've done with other models--being higher than that for a Model 3 or Y, the only reason it's not in production is because they either can't build it or can't do so profitably.
probably lot of factors - but Tesla will eventually go to production and sell it. They have never delivered any new product on time- even when the world wasn't upside down...supply chain and chip shortage probably isn't helping.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MrNubbz on February 25, 2022, 03:20:43 PM
I'll believe it when I see it. Tesla is run by a legitimate genius and visionary,.
Not according to veteran mechanics they are not enamored with tesla though Elan may be playing shell games with the stock and pocketing the difference.He's done well for himself,hardly cutting edge and reliable/reasonable right now.Visionary,no Ford,Wright Brothers,Salk,Tesla himself.Ring me up when it really benefits mankind
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 25, 2022, 03:35:18 PM
probably lot of factors - but Tesla will eventually go to production and sell it. They have never delivered any new product on time- even when the world wasn't upside down...supply chain and chip shortage probably isn't helping.
Yeah, I trust they'll get there. I just think that author sounded like a moron. If Musk could be shipping the Cybertruck right now, he would be.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on February 25, 2022, 04:33:10 PM
The idea is to cover a lot of running about town with electric only.  Maybe it's 60 miles, I dunno.
I hope you visit Lincoln, NE for a game this fall.
You gotta get out of the city once in a while
not all folks walk everywhere

;)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 25, 2022, 05:01:03 PM
I hope you visit Lincoln, NE for a game this fall.
You gotta get out of the city once in a while
not all folks walk everywhere

;)
Half the reason I don't really care about an EV now is that I don't drive anywhere lol... Last 2 years working from home, the biggest driving I do is taking the kids to school and picking them up on the days I've got 'em. That's about 40-45 miles total. 

Beyond that it's the occasional trip to Costco or the driving range. Even when I play my normal golf course, it's barely 2-3 mi each way.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on February 25, 2022, 05:04:42 PM
but, you're killin the planet!
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 25, 2022, 05:09:51 PM
but, you're killin the planet!
Barely. I barely buy enough gas to kill anything. 

My wife would be an EV candidate. More likely a PHEV like a Chevy Volt, as her daily commute is 14 mi each way. But she could go EV because we usually take the Flex when we go on a road trip. 

I'm guessing in ~5-7 years when we retire her Lexus RX, if they have a BEV version we might go that route. But she's not exactly a Chevy kind of gal lol...
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 25, 2022, 05:21:40 PM
It's amazing how much CO2 comes from a gallon of gasoline.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on February 25, 2022, 05:23:02 PM
or a gallon of corn squeezing's such as ethanol 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 25, 2022, 05:30:35 PM
The Volt of course is no more.  I like the idea of a plug in hybrid in general.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on February 25, 2022, 05:42:12 PM
The Volt of course is no more.  I like the idea of a plug in hybrid in general. 

You asked for it--


(https://i.imgur.com/UcsmAMH.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 28, 2022, 02:02:58 PM
SparkCharge "Electric Jerry Can" Makes DC Fast Charging Portable (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/features/sparkcharge-roadie-portable-ev-fast-charger/?sm_id=organic_fb_MT_trueanthem&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=&utm_source=&fbclid=IwAR0qr2Nnqm-ZZ6b1I5brDTg3mYjTFj6Yd4fhyiO9EkLaAOnx3w4OkFK1YEs)

At the heart of this mobile DC fast charger for EVs is the Roadie system, consisting of some number of 3.7-kWh batteries that connect together in a stack, topped by a Roadie charger unit (using the standard CCS plug) capable of DC fast charging at a rate of 20kW, operating at between 150 and 500 volts of DC power. The charger block weighs 51 pounds. Each battery box weighs 73 pounds and takes about 2 hours to recharge on 110-volt power. And because the whole stack is compact enough to fit on a wheeled cart, it can be maneuvered right up to the EV, wherever it's parked. These units are manufactured in Buffalo, NY.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on March 02, 2022, 09:23:42 AM
Ford will split its electric vehicle and internal combustion operations into two individual businesses to accelerate its adaptation of new technology and the Detroit automaker said Wednesday that its transformation into an EV company is accelerating.

Ford plans a major restructuring with two distinct but strategically interdependent auto businesses – Ford Blue focusing on traditional combustion engines and Ford Model e, which will develop electric vehicles.

Jim Farley, the chief executive officer of Ford Motor Co., will lead the electric division.

“We are going all in, creating separate but complementary businesses that give us start-up speed and unbridled innovation in Ford Model e together with Ford Blue’s industrial know-how, volume and iconic brands like Bronco, that start-ups can only dream about,” Farley said.

A pair of EV start-ups, Lucid Group and Lordstown Motors, released disappointing production projections this week, highlighting how difficult it is to secure materials and scale up in the auto industry.

Farley said that the company recognized the need to become more nimble on the technology side with so many competitors entering the market.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Mdot21 on March 02, 2022, 09:41:49 AM
but, you're killin the planet!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ko3w02ycBwI
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MrNubbz on March 02, 2022, 09:44:13 AM
It's amazing how much CO2 comes from a gallon of gasoline.
Guess I'd better keep the lid on the Jim Beam
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 02, 2022, 10:06:51 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ko3w02ycBwI
Of course we're not going to destroy the planet...

...we just might make it unable to sustain the roughly 8B humans who live here. 

Which is kinda, well, important. At least from the perspective of one of those 8B. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on March 02, 2022, 10:10:56 AM
Well George Carlin is dead so what does HE care?

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 02, 2022, 10:14:39 AM
Well George Carlin is dead so what does HE care?
His daughter is still alive, and although he seemed like a callous asshole on stage, I'm guessing he probably wants the planet to be able to support her and not devolve into world wars over resource scarcity caused by climate change. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on March 02, 2022, 10:15:29 AM
His daughter is still alive, and although he seemed like a callous asshole on stage, I'm guessing he probably wants the planet to be able to support her and not devolve into world wars over resource scarcity caused by climate change.
Does he?  Didn't sound like it from his comedy bit...
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 02, 2022, 10:41:05 AM
Does he?  Didn't sound like it from his comedy bit...
You're aware that stand up comedians refer to their set as an "act", right? And that they might not believe every thing they say on stage?

Although I'll agree... Now that he's dead, he doesn't care, because he no longer exists. But I'm sure that before his death, he wished, like most parents, that his child would live safely and happily all her years.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on March 02, 2022, 10:58:10 AM
the comedy thread is that way >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on March 02, 2022, 03:00:14 PM
You're aware that stand up comedians refer to their set as an "act", right? And that they might not believe every thing they say on stage?

Although I'll agree... Now that he's dead, he doesn't care, because he no longer exists. But I'm sure that before his death, he wished, like most parents, that his child would live safely and happily all her years.

Well then it seems silly to use a comedy bit as a supporting argument for a political or ideological view, I'd say. :)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on March 11, 2022, 08:47:13 PM

How Much Does It Cost to Charge an Electric Car?

https://www.cars.com/articles/how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-an-electric-car-447817/ (https://www.cars.com/articles/how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-an-electric-car-447817/)

Tesla Superchargers and other fast-charging networks like Electrify America and EVGo bill by kWh whenever possible, but you may also be billed by the minute depending on state regulations. According to Electrify America, “We believe pricing on a per-kWh basis offers a fair and consistent charging experience to EV drivers. We are working with regulators to follow the various processes that are required for us to provide EV charging on a per-kWh basis.”

Exclusively using DC fast chargers when it’s not complimentary — as with our Model Y — would shrink cost savings versus charging at home. Frequent DC fast charging is also not recommended as it can degrade battery health more quickly. Exclusively Supercharging would cost $84 to drive a Model Y 1,000 miles at $0.30 per kWh, versus $39.54 at home, using EPA combined efficiency figures.

Electricity Vs. Gasoline Costs
When charging at home, EVs are more affordable to refuel versus comparable gasoline cars, but don’t confuse that with electric cars being immediately cheaper to own because, at the moment, the extra expense related to buying an EV and installing home-charging equipment doesn’t make a quick payoff a sure bet. Relative to your existing electrical bill, charging an EV could mean a sharp increase, but in most cases, the cost is considerably lower than fueling a gasoline-powered car. The Department of Energy says on average, it costs about half as much to drive an EV versus a comparable gas car.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 12, 2022, 07:40:42 AM
The recycle thing is kind of a scam.  The recyclers have some low paid workers standing by a conveyor mainly looking for aluminum cans.  They might get some plastic, maybe, if it's large and doesn't have the cap on it and throw that in another bin.  Cardboard has negative value unless it's adjacent to a cardboard recycling plant, which they aren't.  Plastic bottles are usually PE and caps are PP and they don't recycle in the same stream.  A bottle with a cap on it goes to landfill.  Glass is dangerous so they ignore that, unless it's in a source separated glass stream.

Most goes to landfill, I suspect that 26% figure is only for some highly developed recycling ops.

You can calculate how much it costs to charge your car at home pretty easily.  Here it would be pretty cheap, I'm paying about 6 cents per kWhr last I checked.  An EV may need 60-100 to recharge.  EVs rarely need new brakes and don't need oil changes.

I'd go plug in hybrid if I wanted to be economical right now.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on March 12, 2022, 09:43:24 PM
Thomas Edison poses with his first electric car, 1895.

(https://scontent.ffod1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/275122203_2075069222669744_5532428312915526123_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_p180x540&_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=hAc0uCmNtccAX_HlS3M&_nc_ht=scontent.ffod1-1.fna&oh=00_AT8e9gmDHu8p3GSm_bZj-HYZw05ztkOpvRfbppb7km-jZg&oe=6231C811)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: SuperMario on March 12, 2022, 11:14:03 PM
Speaking of recycling, hopefully one of the up and coming battery recycling companies solves the problem of what to do with all the batteries from these EV cars when they die out. With the price of lithium at the moon, it’s now more important than ever to solve that issue.

Couple companies out there with Li-cycle being the most well known name, but St. Georges Eco-mining and who I believe to be the future of the industry in American Battery Technology. Their CEO Ryan Melsert is a former Tesla guy and his intellect is at a different level compared to his peer competitors.

Interesting video for a little insight - https://youtu.be/R-TpCei5MWQ
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 13, 2022, 09:05:11 AM
What do we do today with old cars?  Many are scrapped I imagine and the metals melted and reused.  Batteries would be more of a challenge.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on March 13, 2022, 09:07:52 AM
today's car batteries are recycled, but lead based
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 13, 2022, 09:28:53 AM
And they are quite a bit simpler than the Tesla batteries.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: SuperMario on March 13, 2022, 01:43:44 PM
What do we do today with old cars?  Many are scrapped I imagine and the metals melted and reused.  Batteries would be more of a challenge.
It’s the exact reason there’s a race among a few of these companies to extract the metals from these new batteries in a form that is reusable. The team in Fernley, NV, down the road from Tesla seem to have a special process, but only been done on a small scale. Whichever company can build the process on a large scale will solve a problem that is on a timer, with seriously environmental consequences if not solved.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 13, 2022, 01:48:43 PM
Venting for EV Battery Packs - Tech Briefs (https://www.techbriefs.com/component/content/article/tb/supplements/bt/features/articles/37432?utm_medium=social&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=tebbtga110121&gclid=Cj0KCQiAybaRBhDtARIsAIEG3knhPnnGxFr_tfoStIk3utUNp-Ak_LLL07Knuc-Lg7NA8IjDQ0EcjyoaAkiWEALw_wcB)

Hybrid/EV Battery Recycling - GlobalTech Environmental (https://www.globaltechenvironmental.com/recycling-services/battery-recycling/hybrid-ev/?gclid=Cj0KCQiAybaRBhDtARIsAIEG3klnrLE5ViL5kR-xq9bWvNeJTS5eCoDZ-o8Gz-0TUCSXYVSYGavUyjMaAsh5EALw_wcB)

Cars Are Going Electric. What Happens to the Used Batteries?  | WIRED (https://www.wired.com/story/cars-going-electric-what-happens-used-batteries/)

More than 95 percent of them are recycled today because consumers can claim deposits when they return the batteries, and they are relatively simple to dismantle. Lithium-ion battery packs are, by contrast, heavy machines with dozens of components and radically different designs depending on their manufacturer. “The voltages in these batteries are lethal,” says Latham, who trains salvagers just getting started with EVs. “People don’t know the risks involved.”

Extracting the valuable materials from an EV battery is difficult and expensive. The recycling process typically involves shredding batteries, then breaking them down further with heat or chemicals at dedicated facilities. That part is relatively simple. The harder part is getting dead batteries to those facilities from wherever they met their demise. About 40 percent of the overall cost (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0921344921003645) of recycling, according to one recent study, is transportation. EV battery packs are so massive they need to be shipped by truck (not airplane) in specially designed cases, often across vast distances, to reach centralized recycling facilities. Handling lithium-ion batteries is so demanding that dealerships have chosen to ship an entire 4,000-pound damaged vehicle to Oklahoma City, just so SNT can extract and repair or recycle the 1,000-pound battery inside.

In all, the journey is so labor- and resource-intensive that it generally exceeds the costs of digging up new materials from the ground. Currently, the only battery material that can be recycled profitably is cobalt, because it’s just that rare and expensive. For the same reason, many battery makers hope to eliminate it from their chemistries soon, threatening to make the value proposition for recyclers even harder. “Recycling is not going to be profitable for everybody. That’s fantasy economics,” says Leo Raudys, CEO of Call2Recycle, a nonprofit that handles recycling logistics for dead batteries. Even cobalt-free batteries are toxic and a fire danger, though they still contain plenty of valuable materials, like lithium and nickel. But recycling them responsibly is simply less profitable.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 13, 2022, 01:50:02 PM
This looks to be a major challenge, or we'll end up with old EVs being just left randomly somewhere because it's too expensive to deal with the battery.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MrNubbz on March 13, 2022, 11:41:45 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/XA64IcG.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MrNubbz on March 15, 2022, 08:31:27 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/nK2P6oB.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 16, 2022, 12:12:29 PM
Lyriq is saying ~300 miles range and 76 miles in 10 minutes on fast charger, which is decent.  It would be nice to see a chart of time versus recharge for someone, what do you get for 20 minutes?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Honestbuckeye on March 17, 2022, 06:35:45 AM
https://www.detroitnews.com/in-depth/business/autos/2022/03/17/battery-fires-recalls-threaten-ev-acceptance/6117505001/?for-guid=afd18762-dfbe-11ea-9990-9e58a90e042d&utm_source=detroitnews&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=daily_briefing&utm_term=hero&utm_content=1008DN-E-NLETTER65

EVs catching on fire.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 17, 2022, 07:50:32 AM
Electric vehicle market growing more slowly in U.S. than China, Europe | Pew Research Center (https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/06/07/todays-electric-vehicle-market-slow-growth-in-u-s-faster-in-china-europe/)

(https://i.imgur.com/HFMUkrO.png)

Let's imagine somehow we turned on some switch, magically, and half of all new vehicles (cars and LTs) were electric.  A miracle.  To keep it simple, stay at half for ten years.  That would be almost 9 million new vehicles on the road each year that are EVs.  Wow.  Fantastic.  And after ten years, 90 million, which would be about one THIRD of the fleet.  Now, I do think EVs are coming, but slowly, certainly not fast enough to make any short term difference in our oil usage.  (The real curve will of course be more gradual and we might reach that 50% in ten years, which means the above is implausible.)

And we'll need quite a bit more electric power from somewhere as this happens.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 17, 2022, 08:17:45 AM
EEI Celebrates 1 Million Electric Vehicles on U.S. Roads (https://www.eei.org/resourcesandmedia/newsroom/Pages/Press Releases/EEI Celebrates 1 Million Electric Vehicles on U-S-)





This is really pretty small in terms of cutting gasoline usage.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 17, 2022, 10:10:50 AM
Let's imagine somehow we turned on some switch, magically, and half of all new vehicles (cars and LTs) were electric.  A miracle.  To keep it simple, stay at half for ten years.  That would be almost 9 million new vehicles on the road each year that are EVs.  Wow.  Fantastic.  And after ten years, 90 million, which would be about one THIRD of the fleet.  Now, I do think EVs are coming, but slowly, certainly not fast enough to make any short term difference in our oil usage.  (The real curve will of course be more gradual and we might reach that 50% in ten years, which means the above is implausible.)

And we'll need quite a bit more electric power from somewhere as this happens.
As I've said before, my reticence at getting an EV is mostly due to schedule. At the time I needed to buy the Flex (early 2017), the only EV on the market that even remotely met my needs would be the Tesla Model X, and that thing was a $70K+ vehicle, and the charging infrastructure wasn't great--including in my [rented] house where I don't have an L2 charger installed.

My eldest starts HS this year, meaning that about 4 years from now, my passenger-seating needs will start reducing. At that point the Flex will have likely ticked over 100K miles (pending how much WFH continues after the end of the pandemic), and so I'll be in the position to start thinking about a replacement.

My hope is that the F-150 Lightning is a success--I think that would be a great next vehicle. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 18, 2022, 10:12:18 AM
Updated Ford F-150 Lightning EV Pickup EPA Range Leaked Through Window Stickers? (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/ford-f-150-lightning-ev-pickup-truck-epa-range-monroney/?sm_id=organic_fb_MT_trueanthem&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=&utm_source=&fbclid=IwAR2coB8CUdL8FpR3-lkEjKibpfR-3CUj-RUFhxWQCKQnHHaIRYOgWl8a-Zk)

According to the stickers, Ford's standard range battery setup (98 kWh) will deliver 230 miles in Pro trim. The extended range battery pack (https://www.motortrend.com/news/2022-ford-f-150-lightning-battery-capacity-range/) (131 kWh) is estimated to offer 320 miles for both the Pro and Lariat trims, and slightly less, 300 miles, for the Platinum. Vehicle charge time at 240V listed for the standard-range Pro trim is 11.9 hours on the window sticker, the extended-range Pro and Lariat trims are listed at 10.1 hours, and the Platinum trim is 9.3 hours.

I think 230 miles is over kill for many applications for a work truck, same with delivery vans.  A lot of trucks are never driven intercity.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on March 20, 2022, 09:05:52 AM
Fleetzero’s Container Ship Battery-Swapping Scheme May Help Electrify Shipping

Fleetzero has a plan to reduce shipping emissions.

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/03/18/fleetzeros-container-ship-battery-swapping-scheme-may-help-electrify-shipping/ (https://cleantechnica.com/2022/03/18/fleetzeros-container-ship-battery-swapping-scheme-may-help-electrify-shipping/)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: bayareabadger on March 20, 2022, 09:17:43 AM
One of the ads the keeps playing in my Podcasts explains that I already am an electric vehicle. So I guess I got one.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 20, 2022, 09:37:30 AM
Heh, I think we can provide slightly over 1 million EVs per year in the US, so that inherent limit applies currently.  That figure appears to be headed up quickly, but it will be a while before it reaches 50% of new car sales.  It's not going to help with gasoline prices any time soon.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 26, 2022, 09:53:19 AM
Learn to Speak EV: Electric Cars Explained for Gearheads (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/electric-cars-explained-gearheads/?sm_id=organic_fb_AMAG_trueanthem&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=&utm_source=&fbclid=IwAR2MAG7V2YgXHe1AF25BfXNarPLcQx9a3ZYbpIE5ARPPdsYQZoCPibmdiyI)

For UTEE:



(https://i.imgur.com/ULmN091.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 26, 2022, 09:54:00 AM
Volt:
Think of the volt as a measurement of electrical "pressure," like you'd find in a common garden hose. For a given diameter of hose, turning up the pressure moves more water. (Water is equivalent to power in this analogy.)

Ampere:
Continuing the garden hose analogy, think of the ampere (aka amp) as a measurement of electrical "flow," with a larger-diameter hose—higher amperage—flowing more water (electrical power) at any given pressure (voltage).

Watt:
Named for James Watt, who also defined the term "horsepower," the watt is a measure of the expenditure of energy over time. The particulars don't really matter here; what does matter is that the watt measures the exact same thing horsepower does. It's just a different unit. Like liters and gallons. One horsepower is equal to 745.7 watts.


Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: longhorn320 on March 26, 2022, 10:00:09 AM
Are we really thinking the public is gonna go out and spend $30,000 on an electric car with a max range of around 200 miles

https://www.cars.com/articles/here-are-the-11-cheapest-electric-vehicles-you-can-buy-439849/
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 26, 2022, 10:06:27 AM
Some will obviously, but if we all wanted one somehow, the supply doesn't exist.  The ones being made are being bought.

I've noted before that a family with one EV for around town and a hybrid or ICE car for trips would be well situated, in time.  I don't think we're at equal economics yet except maybe in California.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 26, 2022, 10:17:58 AM
Saw one of these on I-75 yesterday. Interesting looks.

(https://i.imgur.com/qS85idF.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 26, 2022, 11:24:26 AM
The US buys around 18 million cars and LTs a year, about a million of them are EVs, some more are hydrids.  That figure is obviously going up, I have read various projections as to how fast, but it's not going to be all that fast, maybe a third may be EVs and plug ins by 2030.  We will have ICE cars around for decades.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 26, 2022, 11:40:12 AM
I like that the German (and some others) EV's are almost the same body as their real cars. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 26, 2022, 11:41:39 AM
Most of the major mfg EVs look like their regular cars, I think, they have common styling features.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 26, 2022, 11:50:12 AM
Well, there was a whole lot of ugly in the past. 

It's like they did it on purpose so people would not want cars that don't need oil products. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 26, 2022, 11:55:09 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/xPocoMw.png)

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 27, 2022, 08:21:23 AM
General Motors’ 10 New Electric Cars Foreshadow Seachange In What We Drive (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/features/gm-needs-electric-corvette-opinion/?sm_id=organic_fb_AMAG_trueanthem&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=&utm_source=&fbclid=IwAR0B32R2TXdi8R2zIbNBQv3LyFI2qwUgq2hHUFYmW5gKj5EYYLb753LW1JI)

The stated goals could be missed of course, but a million EVs by 2025 would be significant, and Ford and VW et al. are on similar trajectories.  One wonders if parts shortages will be a limiter.  We COULD see 4 million EVs sold in the US by around 2025, out of 18 million total, which starts to be a real thing.  I'm cautious on these figures.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MrNubbz on March 27, 2022, 09:43:59 AM
Scotty Kilmer is great if you're not familiar with him great mechanic giving viewers great advice on all sorts of vehicles .I time stamped it where he discusses the ridiculous Government attempt to impliment electric cars

https://youtu.be/chnIjlh1Guk?t=495
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 27, 2022, 10:27:56 AM
I don't think the plan, such as it is, is to happen quickly obviously.  Most cars are going to be ICE for a long time, maybe we hit 50-50 by 2045 or so, maybe.

And yes, the PO doesn't have the money, it would probably make sense for them longer term if they did.

I eschew folks who scream at me.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: longhorn320 on March 27, 2022, 10:42:04 AM
I dont think we will see real big EV growth until the problem of how to recharge in the same amount of time to fill a tank with gas is solved

Being able to only use EVs around town is not enough
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 27, 2022, 10:45:47 AM
You can already add 100 miles of range in a few minutes at a supercharger, so it's not really all that bad, and many families have two cars and one is used solely around town.  The larger issue right now I think is the added expense, the money just doesn't work out, yet, except maybe in CA.



Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on March 27, 2022, 10:55:45 AM
I dont think we will see real big EV growth until the problem of how to recharge in the same amount of time to fill a tank with gas is solved

Being able to only use EVs around town is not enough
well, it certainly doesn't work in rural areas

of course not many folks live in rural areas, so not a great factor
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 27, 2022, 11:03:31 AM
A common household lives in the burbs, the man drives say 25 miles to work one way, the woman drives 20 miles doing errands and taking kids about, this is a bit of a stereotype.  The man can easily manage with an EV, but the price premium right now doesn't justify it.  I don't think it's range and charging time that is the main impediment.

It's $$$$$$$$.  Of course if gas hits $8 per, that would change.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: longhorn320 on March 27, 2022, 11:20:16 AM
A common household lives in the burbs, the man drives say 25 miles to work one way, the woman drives 20 miles doing errands and taking kids about, this is a bit of a stereotype.  The man can easily manage with an EV, but the price premium right now doesn't justify it.  I don't think it's range and charging time that is the main impediment.

It's $$$$$$$$.  Of course if gas hits $8 per, that would change.
Thats what Biden and his buddies are counting on
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 27, 2022, 11:24:09 AM
There simply aren't enough EVs available right now to matter in the US even if we all wanted one.

There won't be enough to make any significant dent in gasoline demand for years.

Europe already has had very expensive has and EVs hardly have taken hold there, yet.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: longhorn320 on March 27, 2022, 11:34:41 AM
Payback time with an EV

Travel 200 miles a week 

assuming a gas driven car gets 20 miles per gallon at $5 a gallon thats saving $50 a week saved on gas

Cost of EV is $30,000

50 goes into 30000 600 times or weeks to pay back cost of EV

payback time = about 12 years
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on March 27, 2022, 11:38:52 AM
How Much Does It Cost to Charge an Electric Car?

https://www.cars.com/articles/how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-an-electric-car-447817/ (https://www.cars.com/articles/how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-an-electric-car-447817/)

Tesla Superchargers and other fast-charging networks like Electrify America and EVGo bill by kWh whenever possible, but you may also be billed by the minute depending on state regulations. According to Electrify America, “We believe pricing on a per-kWh basis offers a fair and consistent charging experience to EV drivers. We are working with regulators to follow the various processes that are required for us to provide EV charging on a per-kWh basis.”

Exclusively using DC fast chargers when it’s not complimentary — as with our Model Y — would shrink cost savings versus charging at home. Frequent DC fast charging is also not recommended as it can degrade battery health more quickly. Exclusively Supercharging would cost $84 to drive a Model Y 1,000 miles at $0.30 per kWh, versus $39.54 at home, using EPA combined efficiency figures.

Electricity Vs. Gasoline Costs
When charging at home, EVs are more affordable to refuel versus comparable gasoline cars, but don’t confuse that with electric cars being immediately cheaper to own because, at the moment, the extra expense related to buying an EV and installing home-charging equipment doesn’t make a quick payoff a sure bet. Relative to your existing electrical bill, charging an EV could mean a sharp increase, but in most cases, the cost is considerably lower than fueling a gasoline-powered car. The Department of Energy says on average, it costs about half as much to drive an EV versus a comparable gas car.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Gigem on March 27, 2022, 11:50:55 AM
One factor you’re not taking into effect is that as EV’s become more mainstream the price of the batteries has dropped drastically. For example, there is research that shows that the price per kWh has dropped 10 fold in the last ten years. We went from paying ~$1,000 per kWh to about $100 per kWh. Now the question is how much more can prices drop as economies of scale increase. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 27, 2022, 11:52:38 AM
The real comparison would be a new EV versus a comparable new ICE car of similar qualities.  Electricity here is really cheap, around 6 cents per kWhr, so recharging here would be cheap at home.  We have two chargers in our building, third party, I don't know how much that costs.  You need around 33 kWhrs to go 100 miles.

As I keep saying, this is going to take a while.  I don't think anyone who posts here was an EV, or plans to buy one "soon".
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: longhorn320 on March 27, 2022, 11:58:05 AM
The real comparison would be a new EV versus a comparable new ICE car of similar qualities.  Electricity here is really cheap, around 6 cents per kWhr, so recharging here would be cheap at home.  We have two chargers in our building, third party, I don't know how much that costs.  You need around 33 kWhrs to go 100 miles.

As I keep saying, this is going to take a while.  I don't think anyone who posts here was an EV, or plans to buy one "soon".
If your reason for replacing an ICE with a EV is to save money and the payback time to start saving money is 12 years not many will jump on that

and notice I didnt give any cost to recharging an EV in my calculation
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 27, 2022, 12:03:59 PM
I'm talking about a person considering a new vehicle purchase.  That is how we get replacement of an ICE with an EV.

The cost differential is on the order of $10,000, give or take.  That is the main problem.

I doubt many folks with a perfectly fine 2 year old vehicle is going to buy an EV to try and save money, if they did, you'd need to factor trade in costs.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: longhorn320 on March 27, 2022, 12:14:39 PM
I'm talking about a person considering a new vehicle purchase.  That is how we get replacement of an ICE with an EV.

The cost differential is on the order of $10,000, give or take.  That is the main problem.

I doubt many folks with a perfectly fine 2 year old vehicle is going to buy an EV to try and save money, if they did, you'd need to factor trade in costs.
it does not matter if you are buying an EV to save money the payback time to repay your investment is the same

When a person buys an EV they are sacrificing some freedom in return for saving money for not buying gas

Just how long does it take to see a savings for buying an EV and I say right now its 12 years
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on March 27, 2022, 02:07:35 PM
I've driven over 10,000 miles for business since the 1st of the year.

Rural South Dakota, Nebraska, and Iowa.

Doesn't include personal miles

I've noticed just one EV - on I-80 West of Lincoln, heading West

don't see em, don't hear about them, don't notice charging stations

city slickers can be first adopters
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 27, 2022, 05:39:48 PM
The payback time may be more than 12 years depending on how one calculates.  I'd take the cost of an EV vs the cost of a comparable ICE vehicle as the difference.  These new pickup trucks may very well be good values, if you have the money to buy a new one.  The cost differential vs a similar ICE LT is not that great.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 28, 2022, 08:26:52 AM
Here's when you can buy the Cadillac Lyriq | Fox News (https://www.foxnews.com/auto/when-can-buy-cadillac-lyriq)

(https://i.imgur.com/X3m0eFd.jpg)

The angular styling is controversial I think.  I suspect someone will find a style of EV that is matched with EV capabilities, no large engine in the front with cooling needs.  The front could be aerodynamic and smooth in principle.  Might be an ugly jelly bean.  The above is not a very good angle, I think, I'm not a fan (nor in the market).  Starts at $60 K for base model.

The wheel/tire combo seems over sized to me.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on March 28, 2022, 05:35:39 PM
That thing is ugly, but I don't like ANY of the small SUV and/or crossover type vehicles.  They all look like a crappy version of a station wagon to me.  If you're gonna go wagon, go all the way.

(https://i.imgur.com/iDTEUqX.png)

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 29, 2022, 06:26:39 AM
Most are station wagons with a bit of lift.  I routinely see folks here driving Chevy Subdivisions around town of course.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on March 29, 2022, 01:37:58 PM
bad breed between a station wagon and minivan
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 30, 2022, 11:41:49 AM
GM’s Ultium Electric Car Platform Technology: Everything You Need to Know (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/gm-ultium-platform-technology-explained/?sm_id=organic_fb_MT_trueanthem&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=&utm_source=&fbclid=IwAR06WKiVm1eYCqze7kYfSM5ec6PoCoaSgZMoNbvysyl7jCDuQNdgEfdv-wk)

Probably some spin in this.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on March 30, 2022, 09:50:40 PM
so, I pull up to the Hilton Downtown in Des Moines Monday afternoon about 4pm.

In front of the hotel in the unloading area, a Tesla with "Iluvtesla" plates is parked and plugged into the charger.  It was there Tuesday evening still plugged in.

The Hotel parking lot was full because of the Telecom conference I was attending.

douche 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 31, 2022, 04:47:18 PM
Charged EVs | St Louis’s new fleet of 18 New Flyer electric buses powered by ABB chargers - Charged EVs (https://chargedevs.com/newswire/st-louiss-new-fleet-of-18-new-flyer-electric-buses-powered-by-abb-chargers/?fbclid=IwAR3U6ucYgByl-hGBsZhgPnzVjhUu5bo9qi1uMKxSkJR8YMToWFWjrKy63oo)

Seems like a great idea to me, but nothing about how much they cost initially.

(https://i.imgur.com/wkaQRcb.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 03, 2022, 07:02:47 AM
Electrifying Vehicles Likely Won't Disrupt the Grid | RealClearScience (https://www.realclearscience.com/2022/04/02/electrifying_vehicles_likely_wont_disrupt_the_grid_825063.html?fbclid=IwAR28eHctzU0jkY0SWMc_G_Y8wKEpAygP54t9zm_4iWxjGp0GMquW-hW1sZw)

"Likely", says it's about the same as when AC came along.  No figures.

I do appreciate that EV adoption will be rather gradual, but we will need more power, perhaps mostly at night when there is often excess power available at least in summer for some reason.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 03, 2022, 07:18:49 AM
The power consumption varies depending on various factors. On average, a central air conditioner unit can use approximately 3,000 watts per hour during warmer days. When you run your air conditioner at a fan-only mode, it consumes around 750 watts each hour. Large, portable AC units can consume about 4,100 watts hourly, while mid-sized air conditioners use around 2,900 watts each hour. A large window AC uses up to 1,440 watts, a medium one uses 900 watts, and a small model uses about 500 watts.

I read separately an EV can use about 300 kwhr per month, call it 10 kwhr per day, to recharge.  If you AC uses 3 kw per hour for say 10 hours, that is of course 30 per day.  I'm not sure about this.  And of course, the time of day usage for these two things is going to be different.  It would seem to require more power at night when solar is not contributing but less power is needed as AC is working less often.  What is going to provide this additional power?  Coal?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on April 03, 2022, 11:02:11 AM
the wind blows at night

saw one of the new "mustangs" yesterday

not only wasn't a mustang

was ugly no matter the name plate
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 03, 2022, 11:12:58 AM
Wind can blow at night, sure.  There are locations where it's pretty constant.  But solar won't help much with EV recharging, while it would be AC usage.  I would think nearly every home in Phoenix would have PV panels for this reason, but they don't.  I figure it must simply cost too much.  If it doesn't make sense there ...

It would be nice if some outfit would offer to provide and install PVs on your rooftop and guarantee some kind of return, maybe they'd offer loans as well and explain how you can pay it back and come out ahead on utility savings.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on April 03, 2022, 11:20:52 AM
solar can of course be stored in batteries for use at night
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 03, 2022, 11:30:41 AM
I can appreciate how difficult it is to estimate the possible load on our grid of electrification of transport.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on April 04, 2022, 01:50:05 PM
(https://scontent.ffod1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/277738155_2822015271434604_4571972601954385368_n.jpg?stp=dst-jpg_p526x296&_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=ldygxeSUZY8AX9wxqTR&_nc_ht=scontent.ffod1-1.fna&oh=00_AT_r6Es9uGXTL1SPkgp3o9A0IdoT5Hx7xHEUhvadItTsrw&oe=624FB584)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on April 04, 2022, 01:55:45 PM
the wind blows at night

saw one of the new "mustangs" yesterday

not only wasn't a mustang

was ugly no matter the name plate

Ford's really done a terrible job with branding lately.  The danger of using a premier mark in order to produce a halo effect, is of course the dilution or degradation of the core brand.

By calling their new weird electrical thing a "Mustang" even with the sub-designation of "Mach E" they are creating brand confusion and the results are harmful to their main mark, the Mustang.

And then the release of the Bronco "Sport" ahead of the full-sized Bronco, has done quite a bit of damage to the premier mark that is the Bronco.  They generated so much excitement about re-releasing a full-sized Bronco, but then when the little Bronco Sport hit the market a year earlier than its big brother, lots of people were confused and assumed they'd just ditched the plans on the full sized Bronco and settled for another Ford Escape type vehicle with different branding.

That's the type of brand confusion that can last for decades, just as the Land Rover/Range Rover branding gaffe has, here in the USA.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on April 04, 2022, 03:15:31 PM
Better Idea
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 05, 2022, 09:20:17 AM
GM and Honda to develop affordable electric vehicles that cost less than $30,000 (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/05/gm-and-honda-to-partner-on-affordable-electric-vehicles.html)

The profits to be had are in trucks and SUVs and vans, I think, not small cars, but OK I guess.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on April 05, 2022, 09:54:33 AM
small cars are good in city driving - short trips

if affordable, many young folks will buy them

if it wasn't profitable GM and Honda wouldn't make them

I purchased a small car yesterday, pick it up today

2017 Chevy Impala - Flex Fuel - not electric

Flex fuel = E85

85% corn juice - about 28% less MPG
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on April 05, 2022, 10:16:09 AM
The Jeep is our main in-city driving vehicle.  It's narrow, pretty short for being a 4-door, tight turning radius, easy to park in tight spaces, and it can even pop curbs and maneuver over and around other types of urban obstacles when necessary. 

The F150 supercrew cab, on the other hand, is strictly for the suburbs and country driving.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 05, 2022, 10:43:15 AM
I'm thinking the profit margins on a $30 K EV won't be near what they would be on a pickup, even percentagewise.  But, yes, if it's a decent car and comparable to say a $25 K ICE car, it would get some sales.

I see quite a few pickups in town, I imagine most are workers coming to build or fix.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 05, 2022, 12:36:25 PM
EV Motors Explained (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a39493798/ev-motors-explained/?src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&utm_medium=social-media&fbclid=IwAR3IYYjrhta0DumnwWyDVvqsf8IAfle82d-xfNg9K0eKqXONsryWXKqfArk)

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: longhorn320 on April 05, 2022, 12:43:11 PM
small cars are good in city driving - short trips

if affordable, many young folks will buy them

if it wasn't profitable GM and Honda wouldn't make them

I purchased a small car yesterday, pick it up today

2017 Chevy Impala - Flex Fuel - not electric

Flex fuel = E85

85% corn juice - about 28% less MPG
who cares
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on April 11, 2022, 02:23:07 PM
Japan’s heavyweight motorcycle manufacturers known as the Big Four have unveiled a new electric motorbike battery swapping program called Gachaco. But what Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki and Kawasaki haven’t come right out and said is that instead of the highly anticipated innovative new motorcycle battery standard, it’s looking a lot like a blue version of Gogoro.

The Big Four have supposedly been working on this big roll out for quite some time; we first heard about their ambitions for a swappable electric motorcycle battery standard all the way back in 2019.

You know, in the before times.

Back then, it sounded like they were developing something large enough to power mid-size electric motorcycles and that could be standardized across manufacturers. It appears the latter part might have been right, but the “motorcycle” part of electric motorcycle batteries seems to have been more or less replaced with “scooter” in this case.

That’s because the swappable battery standard that the Big Four have landed on isn’t very large at all, and instead looks like a blue filter applied to Gogoro’s 1.7 kWh swappable electric scooter batteries. Multiple batteries can of course be used together to power a single vehicle, offering more capacity and thus longer range. That’s exactly what Honda already does with its swappable batteries in its PCX electric scooter.

And in the three years that the four major motorcycle manufacturers have been working on the project, it seems like they haven’t as much developed a new battery standard as they have simply defaulted to using Honda’s PCX batteries that were unveiled in 2018.


https://electrek.co/2022/04/08/honda-yamaha-suzuki-and-kawasaki-roll-out-swappable-electric-motorcycle-batteries-but-its-really-just-a-gogoro-competitor/ (https://electrek.co/2022/04/08/honda-yamaha-suzuki-and-kawasaki-roll-out-swappable-electric-motorcycle-batteries-but-its-really-just-a-gogoro-competitor/)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 11, 2022, 04:15:17 PM
I was pondering this whilst driving back today.  The trip is 472 miles.  I was getting about 35 mpg using premium, so about 13.5 gallons of gas at about $4 per (Costco), = $54.

An EV with 300 miles range, well, I'd stop after 280 or so and recharge 100 miles taking about 15 minutes and then again to recharge, if I could find a supercharger of course.  Then I'd have the range taking about 30 minutes to recharge.  I saw no charger at the motel, maybe there was one around somewhere.  

You need about 33 kWhr of electricity for 100 miles range, it costs on average I think 12 cents per, or $4 for 100 miles, if I did this right, or about $20 for the trip.  An EV equivalent to my GTI would probably cost $10 K or so more than I paid.  We're not there.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 13, 2022, 12:18:30 PM
Auto executives say more than half of U.S. car sales will be EVs by 2030, KPMG survey shows (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/30/auto-executives-say-more-than-half-of-us-car-sales-will-be-evs-by-2030-kpmg-survey-shows.html)

This sounds possible to me, about what I was guessing, maybe a bit optimistic.  But that means 9 million or so EVs going into the market, which is not many as compared to how many are on the roads now.  Maybe by 2040, we'd see half the vehicles on the road being EVs.  Maybe.

Our car is four years old, low mileage, I have no notion of trading for anything else.  It should last 10 at least.  Maybe by 2030 I MIGHT consider an EV?

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: longhorn320 on April 13, 2022, 12:35:11 PM
EVs would have to grow to 140 Mil which because there are still major problems to solve and needed infrastructure still to be built seems not doable by 2030
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 13, 2022, 04:47:08 PM
Half of sales by 2030
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: longhorn320 on April 13, 2022, 04:59:55 PM
Half of sales by 2030
ok my bad


but as Ive pointed out before there will have to be more incentive to buy then just fuel savings

Gas prices will eventually get back to $3 a gal when we get the plant out of the WH

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 13, 2022, 06:44:15 PM
For EVs to become widely accepted, I think we need:

1.  Many more superchargers with standardized plugs, no more than two.
2.  Slightly better range, maybe 350 miles, and some options for shorter range urban vehicles.
3.  Lower prices overall, no more than a 15% price premium over ICE.

EVs generally have good acceleration and a low center of gravity which aids handling and lower operating costs.  If you can add 100 miles of range in 10-15 minutes, that would be acceptable for many, and most of our driving is short distances anyway.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on April 14, 2022, 08:04:55 AM
I definitely see them as the future.  100 years from now, I don't think the ICE will still be around in any meaningful way.  That statement will probably be true 80 years from now.

But 50 years from now?  I still see a decent amount of ICE vehicles out there in the world.  I think current projections of a relatively rapid switchover are pretty optimistic, if only because I just don't see the electrical grid and remote charging infrastructure getting there quick enough to support the stated goals/expectations.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 14, 2022, 08:12:02 AM
I think in 50 years, we're talking 2070, an ICE vehicle will be a rarity, an antique, probably mostly banned outside of shows.

Trains will have been electrified, planes I don't know, could be on hydrogen, heavy trucks could be on hydrogen (fuel cells) maybe.  I think by then only EVs will be sold as cars and LTs.  This would mean the end of the large "oil company", we'd still need oil for chemicals.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on April 14, 2022, 08:27:20 AM
Where is all the lithium gonna come from?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 14, 2022, 08:32:51 AM
I don't really think it's a problem longer term, it's a very common element in the Earth's crust.  Shorter term it's an issue because we haven't discovered more locations rich in deposites, but that will happen as the price rises.  And newer batteries likely will use less of it and other heavier metals.

The issue of dealing with scrapped batteries is interesting, and somebody will devise a solution I expect and make a lot of dough.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on April 14, 2022, 08:47:30 AM
Maybe we can annex South America?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on April 14, 2022, 08:50:23 AM
I think in 50 years, we're talking 2070, an ICE vehicle will be a rarity, an antique, probably mostly banned outside of shows.

Yeah not in 50 years.  There are too many use cases where battery technology, both current and expected in the midterm future, just aren't going to cut it.  I say 80 years because I'm allowing for massive innovation but if that doesn't occur then 100 might still be more realistic.

Battery technology isn't advancing anywhere close to the pace that semiconductors are, or pretty much any other mainstream hardware miniaturization.  And we can't make assumptions that it will.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: NorthernOhioBuckeye on April 14, 2022, 08:51:41 AM
I think in 50 years, we're talking 2070, an ICE vehicle will be a rarity, an antique, probably mostly banned outside of shows.

Trains will have been electrified, planes I don't know, could be on hydrogen, heavy trucks could be on hydrogen (fuel cells) maybe.  I think by then only EVs will be sold as cars and LTs.  This would mean the end of the large "oil company", we'd still need oil for chemicals.


Trains can easily be electric because they are confined to a predefined route where the electericty can be supplied to them instead of having to carry it with them, ie batteries. If trains required batteries, they would still be powered by diesel engines. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 14, 2022, 09:00:59 AM
Train engines today are partly electric.  Every train I saw in France was electric, they have a lot of nonTGV trains going hither and yon.

Fifty years is a long time obviously.  1972?  I recall in 1980 I though the ICE in cars was done, peak oil etc. and by 2000 we'd have something else.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on April 14, 2022, 09:32:58 AM
Train engines today are partly electric.  Every train I saw in France was electric, they have a lot of nonTGV trains going hither and yon.

Fifty years is a long time obviously.  1972?  I recall in 1980 I though the ICE in cars was done, peak oil etc. and by 2000 we'd have something else.



Yup, this is getting directly to my point.  Advances in technology in this area just aren't coming rapidly, and they really never have.  A prehistoric pace, compared to advances in so many other technological fields.

And I don't believe we can assume that all of a sudden the velocity of advancement will increase dramatically, when there's no historical evidence to support that.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 14, 2022, 09:47:39 AM
I could be wrong, obviously, but car makers and governments are pushing very hard in this direction.  Norway has already exceeded 50% sales of EVs.

I suspect it will be slower than some car makers claim, but in 50 years?  I've noted these new LTs seem really close in the value equation.  I'd like to see a basic cheap "work truck" with maybe 150 miles range and no trinkets, I think that would sell for plumbers et al.

I'm less sanguine about the hydrogen gambit for obvious reasons.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on April 14, 2022, 10:04:53 AM
As I've said before, there are several use cases that are not viable with current battery technology, or even expected future battery technology based on the current rate of advancement.

Long haul trucking, and basically towing of any kind, are not currently supportable.  I believe hybrid solutions are ideal for these applications and use cases, but that would still involve having ICE onboard.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 14, 2022, 10:19:24 AM
Fuel cells are basically another kind of battery and have the oomph to power large trucks, but I agree heavy hawlers will challenge my timeline.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 14, 2022, 10:25:30 AM
Mercedes-Benz EQXX EV Concept Pulls Off a 621-Mile Road Trip (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a39714749/mercedes-benz-eqxx-621-mile-road-trip/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social-media&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&src=socialflowFBCAD&fbclid=IwAR0UiSfO7IowK-CPSizfBt_DBpS5UD2qp88ia_-kgK5xqAD2Jb4pifcfH00)

Mercedes-Benz is rightly glorying in the fact that it drove its Vision EQXX battery-electric concept (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38651341/mercedes-benz-vision-eqxx-concept-revealed/) over 621 miles (1000 kilometers) on a single charge. The feat took place on real roads from Stuttgart, Germany, to Cassis, France, in early spring weather ranging from 37 to 64 degrees Fahrenheit, at an average speed of 53 miles per hour. That middling speed was no hypermiling; the route included autobahn stints with extensive cruising at up to 87 mph, offset by Europe's congested urban traffic.

Mercedes pulled the caper with a 100.0-kWh battery that it claimed still contained 87 miles of range at the end of the trip. Compare that to the Lucid Air Grand Touring (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a39696167/lucid-air-grand-touring-performance-revealed/), which leads the North American pack in production EV range at an EPA-rated 516 miles thanks to a 112.0-kWh battery.


Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 18, 2022, 02:42:36 PM
MARTA's first electric buses to debut this week. Have a look | Urbanize Atlanta (https://atlanta.urbanize.city/post/marta-first-electric-buses-coming-earth-day-photos)

Seems like a coming thing also.  They sound expensive though.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on April 18, 2022, 02:51:13 PM
watched 60 minutes last night

seems to be many forms of electric transportation coming
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MrNubbz on April 19, 2022, 09:17:04 PM
Here's my go to on line auto mechanic informative and funny.He thinks that Ocean Freighter that sunk on march 2nd was because of the batteries in the electric models causing the vessel to go up like a roman candle.The Felicity Ace had been carrying nearly 4,000 vehicles from various Volkswagen Group brands.The ship did not release any pollutants into the water as it burned, according to the shipping company. The environmental impact of the ship's total immersion in the water isn't yet known.Ya right


https://youtu.be/8eNf6LGelI4?t=74


Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on April 21, 2022, 07:59:02 PM
SITE OF THE DAY:

11 rules for buying an ebike, and the 11 ebikes to buy now
https://ryanj.substack.com/p/ebikes?s=r (https://ryanj.substack.com/p/ebikes?s=r)

Ebikes are about to change the world. They are already the best selling electric vehicles, and are selling as fast as factories can make them.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Honestbuckeye on April 22, 2022, 08:15:34 AM
A great way- the new “thing” to compare cars: the U-Drag. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x7m_T5MX8NQ

If you wonder why this posted in the Electric Vehicles thread….these cars do have electric components 😂
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: NorthernOhioBuckeye on April 22, 2022, 08:23:30 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/uILp03s.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 22, 2022, 08:26:55 AM
I saw one calculation that if an EV uses coal for the electricity, it still works out to be beneficial for CO2 production.  This did not include any cost of making the EV.  It was interesting.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Honestbuckeye on April 22, 2022, 09:59:31 AM
Nice combo- hybrid 


https://youtu.be/8VdYxORPT9s
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on April 22, 2022, 11:04:57 AM
Nice combo- hybrid


https://youtu.be/8VdYxORPT9s
That I would drive.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 22, 2022, 11:51:18 AM
High performance cars soon enough will have no manual trans option and be hydrids or full EVs.  Somebody might make a throwback.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 23, 2022, 07:35:17 AM
GM’s Electric BrightDrop Zero 600 Van Snags Distance Record With 260-Mile* Run (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/brightdrop-zevo-600-distance-record-guinness/?sm_id=organic_fb_MT_trueanthem&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=&utm_source=&fbclid=IwAR1u9QEcOw7r3lEfDOEzFYDvsuKqpS-XyzERfdw1-3vwtHzVh6fmVQf8eqQ)

(https://i.imgur.com/maPidYM.png)

This makes sense to me, depending on initial cost.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 23, 2022, 07:36:28 AM
I passed two school busses in the park yesterday that had dropped of kids, both were sitting, and idling, with no apparent notion of turning them off.  The drivers were present, no kids, just idling, nice day, in the shade, no need for AC.  Idling away.  Gas powered.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on April 23, 2022, 08:39:19 AM
A research team at the Korea Advanced Institute of Science and Technology (KAIST) has developed a high-energy density, ultrafast rechargeable hybrid lithium-ion battery that can be used in smart electronic devices and EVs. “The hybrid lithium-ion battery, which has a high energy density (285 Wh/kg) and can be rapidly charged with a high-power density (22,600 W/kg), is overcoming the limitations of the current energy storage system,” Professor Jung-Goo Kang of the Department of Materials Science and Engineering said. “It will be a breakthrough.” The research team synthesized a porous carbon hollow structure with a large surface area by changing the orientation of the polymer resin from linear to twisted. When the twisted resin was carbonized, more micropores were formed, and a carbon structure with a surface area 12 times larger than that of the conventional linear resin was created. The carbon structure created through this process was used as a capacitor-type cathode material. In addition, the anode was made using a germanium-embedded hollow carbon nanosphere material to reduce degradation and maximize the dispersion of lithium ions. The researchers found that the hybrid lithium-ion battery using those special electrodes had an energy density comparable to that of conventional lithium-ion batteries and the power density characteristics of a capacitor, affording recharge within a minute.

https://www.pv-magazine.com/2022/04/22/the-mobility-revolution-hybrid-lithium-ion-battery-capable-of-recharging-within-a-minute/ (https://www.pv-magazine.com/2022/04/22/the-mobility-revolution-hybrid-lithium-ion-battery-capable-of-recharging-within-a-minute/)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 25, 2022, 01:56:07 PM
GM says it will produce electric Chevrolet Corvettes (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/25/gm-says-it-will-produce-electric-chevrolet-corvettes.html)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: longhorn320 on April 25, 2022, 02:05:54 PM
GM says it will produce electric Chevrolet Corvettes (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/25/gm-says-it-will-produce-electric-chevrolet-corvettes.html)
This seems like a good idea but is it

Folks that drive Corvettes dont really care about saving by use of electricity over gasoline

Just kinda feels like when coke came out with "new coke"

we'll see
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 25, 2022, 02:08:24 PM
The first will be a hybrid, with something like 1000 hp and AWD.  Down the line we'd see a pure EV.  Bear in mind an EV often has considerable acceleration.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 29, 2022, 02:17:46 PM
US electric car sales jumped to an impressive record high last quarter - Electrek (https://electrek.co/2022/04/28/us-electric-car-sales-jumped-record-high-last-quarter/?fbclid=IwAR153KSnhw7GfgkCWJro5kCtT9l4P31Z8t9RhuDnPs3TB1Lx6Z7BnI_58Mo)

Electric car sales in the United States jumped to a record high of over 200,000 vehicles during the last quarter (Q1 2022).
It’s a good sign, but the US EV market is still extremely reliant on Tesla and California.

The United States is trailing far behind Europe and China when it comes to electrifying its passenger car market. There are many factors at play, including weaker incentives and a preference for pickup trucks, which is a segment that is just now being electrified.
But, we are starting to see a significant increase in EV adoption over the last year, and this last quarter was particularly important for EV adoption in the United States.
Using data from the California Energy Commission (CEC) and the California Air Resources Board (CARB), Veloz (https://www.veloz.org/ev-market-report/) published a new report on EV sales in the United States that shows a record number (over 208,000) of electric vehicles delivered in the country during Q1 2022.


Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Mdot21 on April 29, 2022, 02:41:55 PM
US electric car sales jumped to an impressive record high last quarter - Electrek (https://electrek.co/2022/04/28/us-electric-car-sales-jumped-record-high-last-quarter/?fbclid=IwAR153KSnhw7GfgkCWJro5kCtT9l4P31Z8t9RhuDnPs3TB1Lx6Z7BnI_58Mo)

Electric car sales in the United States jumped to a record high of over 200,000 vehicles during the last quarter (Q1 2022).
It’s a good sign, but the US EV market is still extremely reliant on Tesla and California.

The United States is trailing far behind Europe and China when it comes to electrifying its passenger car market. There are many factors at play, including weaker incentives and a preference for pickup trucks, which is a segment that is just now being electrified.
But, we are starting to see a significant increase in EV adoption over the last year, and this last quarter was particularly important for EV adoption in the United States.
Using data from the California Energy Commission (CEC) and the California Air Resources Board (CARB), Veloz (https://www.veloz.org/ev-market-report/) published a new report on EV sales in the United States that shows a record number (over 208,000) of electric vehicles delivered in the country during Q1 2022.
GM/Ford/Chrysler have done nothing to make a dent in EV sales in the US. It's literally all Tesla. Which is why it's weird af to me that Biden didn't invite Musk or Tesla to his most recent EV summit at the White House- and why he keeps praising GM for all their work on EV's. GM sold like 25 EV's last quarter. Tesla? 200,000. Tesla is manufactuing over 1 million EV's a year now. GM? In the few thousands or maybe even 10,000 at best. Actually, it's not that weird come to think of it, Biden is a f**king senile old brain dead moron.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 29, 2022, 03:38:45 PM
It is not literally all Tesla, 70% is not 100%.  Literally.

And that percentage of EVs sold is headed down for obvious reasons.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Mdot21 on April 29, 2022, 04:10:04 PM
It is not literally all Tesla, 70% is not 100%.  Literally.

And that percentage of EVs sold is headed down for obvious reasons.
I was talking about US auto makers, you know, the "Big 3" - and yeah, as far as that goes, it basically literally is just f**king Tesla grandpa. Ford has 2% and change of EV market share and GM has 7% and change. Chrysler has a whopping 0%.
 
Oh gee, just 70%! Their next closest EV competitor is Nissan- who has a whopping 8.5% market share of EVs in US. Volkswagen, Hyuandi, Audi, Porsche, Kia, BMW, Mercedes, Lucid, Smart, Jaguar, Volvo, Polestar, Mini, Honda, Toyota, Mitsubishi, Mazada, Lucid, and couple other foreign companies, all have very small EV US market share but combined it adds up- you're talking about 20 different brands/companies which have around 12+% marketshare combined. Nissan- a Japanese company has 8.5%. That's 20.5+% percent. Tesla has 70%.

That leaves the "Big 3" auto makers with a whopping 9.5% combined to split amongst each other. Yeah, so as far as US auto makers go, it's still pretty much just f**king Tesla. They are manufacturing 1 million EV's a year. GM, Ford, and Chrysler combined don't even manufacture a tenth of that.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 29, 2022, 04:19:11 PM
Do you understand the word "literally" and what that means?

How about "hyperbole"?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Mdot21 on April 29, 2022, 04:25:22 PM
Do you understand the word "literally" and what that means?

How about "hyperbole"?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zo4GWb7HgmU
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MrNubbz on May 06, 2022, 09:56:23 AM
The Electric Vehicle Scam
Dr. Jay Lehr and Tom Harris | Jan 15, 2022 | Climate Change, Feature 1, Lifestyle, Politics
The utility companies have thus far had little to say about the alarming cost projections to operate electric vehicles (EVs) or the increased rates that they will be required to charge their customers. It is not just the total amount of electricity required, but the transmission lines and fast charging capacity that must be built at existing filling stations. Neither wind nor solar can support any of it. Electric vehicles will never become the mainstream of transportation!
In part 1 of our exposé on the problems with electric vehicles (EVs), we showed that they were too expensive, too unreliable, rely on materials mined in China and other unfriendly countries, and require more electricity than the nation can afford.  In this second part, we address other factors that will make any sensible reader avoid EVs like the plague.
EV Charging Insanity
In order to match the 2,000 cars that a typical filling station can service in a busy 12 hours, an EV charging station would require 600, 50-watt chargers at an estimated cost of $24 million and a supply of 30 megawatts of power from the grid. That is enough to power 20,000 homes. No one likely thinks about the fact that it can take 30 minutes to 8 hours to recharge a vehicle between empty or just topping off. What are the drivers doing during that time?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 06, 2022, 10:19:55 AM
"Neither wind nor solar can support any of it. Electric vehicles will never become the mainstream of transportation!"


If we read that literally, it's ridiculous.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on May 06, 2022, 10:28:36 AM
heckuva lot more Teslas in the Denver area driving through last week

I saw more Teslas in a 20 minute drive thru Denver on I-76, I-70 than I do in 20 weeks in Iowa, Nebraska, South Dakota, North Dakota

must be a big city thing, not a rural thing
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 06, 2022, 10:40:05 AM
It is an urban thing, clearly.  We have chargers all over the place here now.  But outside the metro?  It gets sketchy.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on May 06, 2022, 10:51:33 AM
Hard to find much outside of metros.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 11, 2022, 02:19:27 PM
2022 Ford F-150 Lightning Mega Power Frunk: Details (roadandtrack.com) (https://www.roadandtrack.com/reviews/a39927869/2022-ford-f-150-lightning-mega-power-frunk/?utm_campaign=socialflowR%26T&utm_medium=social-media&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR2CxfHrRlqRq4hrtxw_U_mBpDB1CslVzCr4AG2tlX1YXpcl80nY6lPyOGA)

(https://i.imgur.com/ANp5yv9.png)

The frunk seems to me like a game changer.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: longhorn320 on May 11, 2022, 02:32:10 PM
not sure why this is a game changer

the basic problems with electric cars still exist

driving distance from a full charge and length of time to charge were not mentioned

or at least I couldnt find it
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 11, 2022, 02:46:10 PM
A lot of folks use light duty trucks only for local drives, to work, to a job site, etc.  The EF150 does have decent range.  You could add 100 miles in 15-20 minutes with a supercharger.  The lockable frunk to me would have major appeal.

Final EPA-estimated range for F-150 Lightning:

(https://abs-0.twimg.com/emoji/v2/72x72/26a1.png)XLT, Lariat & Pro trims = 320 miles w/ extended range. 230 for standard.
(https://abs-0.twimg.com/emoji/v2/72x72/26a1.png)Platinum trim = 300 miles
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 11, 2022, 03:11:58 PM
2022 Ford F-150 Lightning First Drive: A Monumental Electric Pickup Truck (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2022-ford-f-150-lightning-electric-truck-first-drive-review/?sm_id=organic_fb_AMAG_trueanthem&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=&utm_source=&fbclid=IwAR0jPD3HfC_x6zjp-Rj3Axg-r-CVrz5WYkjVZLc8tQ8qHRJ3sX7-EyiV-Qg)

MT tends to be on the positive side with their evals, but they seem really charged up about this truck.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: longhorn320 on May 11, 2022, 03:13:08 PM
still at $40,000 they are not there yet

not even close
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 11, 2022, 04:00:19 PM
How much does a new F150 cost with similar equipment levels?  

All Lightnings will come with all-wheel drive and a crew cab, so by our approximation the most equivalent gasoline model is the 2021 F-150 XL SuperCrew 4WD with a short bed, which costs $41,855. That base version has a 3.3-liter V-6 engine with 290 horsepower and 265 pound-feet of torque, which pales in comparison with the base Lightning's 426 hp and 775 pound-feet.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: longhorn320 on May 11, 2022, 04:38:10 PM
How much does a new F150 cost with similar equipment levels? 

All Lightnings will come with all-wheel drive and a crew cab, so by our approximation the most equivalent gasoline model is the 2021 F-150 XL SuperCrew 4WD with a short bed, which costs $41,855. That base version has a 3.3-liter V-6 engine with 290 horsepower and 265 pound-feet of torque, which pales in comparison with the base Lightning's 426 hp and 775 pound-feet.


what doesnt pale in comparison is the limited ability to drive out of town like a vacation.

no news here

wake me when you can drive an electric auto 350 miles and it only takes 30 minutes to fully charge for another 350 miles
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on May 11, 2022, 05:23:07 PM
what doesnt pale in comparison is the limited ability to drive out of town like a vacation.

no news here

wake me when you can drive an electric auto 350 miles and it only takes 30 minutes to fully charge for another 350 miles
I think, for now, that it is very difficult to have an EV as you or your family's only vehicle for this reason.  However, I think they are or are getting very close to being a potentially viable option for a multi-car family.  

My wife and I have talked about them but, for now, we both have extremely short commutes which pretty much negates the primary benefit of an EV.  

For our family's vehicles:

Obviously most people have MUCH longer commutes to/from work.  For us, getting a more efficient vehicle just doesn't save us much money.  To illustrate this I did a comparison on the EPA site where you can compare fuel economy of different vehicles.  I picked a Toyota Prius and a Chevy Suburban 4x4, 6.2L gas (without the stop/start, basically I was looking for a REALLY inefficient vehicle).  For our combined commutes the annual fuel cost is:

That is basically the biggest gap I could come up with and it is only $500/year for our commutes.  

My wife previously worked farther away, a 19.4 mi trip from our house.  If she was still doing that then I think we'd be more serious about an EV.  That 19.4 mi commute was about 50/50 City/Highway and that was a year-round job so her annual was 10,088 mi (19.4*2=38.8 per day *5=194 per week *52=10,088 per year).  If you go back to the Suburban/Prius comparison the annual fuel costs for that commute are:
Then it would be enough money to be worth considering.  

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Mdot21 on May 11, 2022, 09:19:28 PM
what doesnt pale in comparison is the limited ability to drive out of town like a vacation.

no news here

wake me when you can drive an electric auto 350 miles and it only takes 30 minutes to fully charge for another 350 miles
Tesla supercharger will get around 200 miles in about 15 mins and charge up to 80% in about 40 minutes.

Tesla is literally the only EV out there being remotely capable of what you're talking about, as they are really the only ones with a nation wide charging network, which the car is programmed to show where every single Tesla charger and charging station in the country is on the nav.

They are by far the closest, but still not good enough imo.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 12, 2022, 03:34:54 AM
No doubt the EV trucks are not suited for everyone, but I'm still impressed with both of them and how well suited they are for a lot of truck owners.  I think this is a better market for EVs than cars right now, and the trucks appear to me to be closer to break even than EV cars, advantages are impressive (to me) especially if you don't tow or take long road trips.  Delivery vans should be another solid market for these chassis.

Speaking of driving a truck 440 miles or so, the F150 4x4 is rated at 22 mpg highway, so 20 gallons of gas, ~ $100.  The cost to charge the EF150 would be somewhere around $20-25 depending.  

When using a fast charger, it will only take about 40 to 45 minutes to charge the Ford Lightning to 80%

The average residential electricity rate in the U.S. is 14.19 cents per kilowatt-hour as of December 6, 2021. By Using this price and the equation above we can find how much it would cost to charge the Ford Lightning at your home, which would be 13.91$ for the standard model and 18.59$ for the extended model. This is only an estimation as every state has different electricity rates. 

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 12, 2022, 04:15:04 AM
How far does a typical "work truck" go in a day?  I mean one used by plumbers, electricians, gardeners, etc.

Maybe 100 miles?  A lot of these folks are going to buy used, but a larger company that buys new is going to be attracted to the electric version I think.  And of course delivery vans used by UPS etc. should be a no brainer if the cost is roughly on par with ICE vans - no oil changes, almost no brake jobs ...  seems near ideal to me.  These things must get awful gas mileage today.

And those vans used to get you to the rental car place etc. or motel?  Seems like another good market.



Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Mdot21 on May 12, 2022, 05:42:43 AM
How far does a typical "work truck" go in a day?  I mean one used by plumbers, electricians, gardeners, etc.

Maybe 100 miles?  A lot of these folks are going to buy used, but a larger company that buys new is going to be attracted to the electric version I think.  And of course delivery vans used by UPS etc. should be a no brainer if the cost is roughly on par with ICE vans - no oil changes, almost no brake jobs ...  seems near ideal to me.  These things must get awful gas mileage today.

And those vans used to get you to the rental car place etc. or motel?  Seems like another good market.
honestly depends. For the average "work truck", I'd say 100 miles is a great guess though. I know some electricians, plumbers, etc., that will work from Palm Beach all the way to Miami. That's about 65-70 miles each way- plus whatever stops they make in between.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 12, 2022, 07:04:26 AM
With just about any average, there will be a distribution about the mean, or median.  I think 280 mile range is plenty for a work truck and probably a delivery van.  Below is one answer to the question for UPS.  Those vans likely get 15 mpg in this sort of driving.

On an average night, a driver travels 75 to 100 miles on deliveries, averaging four solid hours of drive-time mostly on residential streets. 




Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: NorthernOhioBuckeye on May 12, 2022, 08:44:18 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/LdJ9UAk.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on May 12, 2022, 09:02:34 AM
My commute is about 20 steps every morning. Sometimes it's a 3 hour flight.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: longhorn320 on May 12, 2022, 09:54:09 AM
Right now the only reason someone would buy an EV is to save on gas

Ive already calculated the payback period for gas savings to pay for a $30,000 car is 10 years

thus there currently is no personal benefit for buying an EV

why would I want to tie myself to a 10 year hole just to drive an EV

now if an EV had equal distance stats and recharge time was 30 minutes or less
then it could be considered


Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 12, 2022, 10:19:11 AM
I've noted the F150 is about the same price as the ICE version.  It has a lot more torque, and a useful front trunk, and is reported to have better handling (low CoG).  Aside from saving on gas, it also saves on oil changes and brakes.  I think these things will sell like hotcakes.

I think this is a much better comparison than with any available regular car.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on May 12, 2022, 10:55:22 AM
I've noted the F150 is about the same price as the ICE version.  It has a lot more torque, and a useful front trunk, and is reported to have better handling (low CoG).  Aside from saving on gas, it also saves on oil changes and brakes.  I think these things will sell like hotcakes.

I think this is a much better comparison than with any available regular car.
I'm not disagreeing but it does depend on what you are doing with it.  If you need to be able to tow a heavy trailer even just once in a while I would guess the EV wouldn't work because the battery drainage would be so severe that you couldn't go anywhere.  

Another factor is climate.  Here in Northern Ohio it is cold a lot.  With an ICE vehicle the heat is basically "free" because it is a byproduct of the operation of the ICE but with an EV the heat is most definitely NOT free.  Creating heat will drain your powersupply and thus your range gets a LOT shorter if you are running heat/defrost.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: longhorn320 on May 12, 2022, 10:56:29 AM
I've noted the F150 is about the same price as the ICE version.  It has a lot more torque, and a useful front trunk, and is reported to have better handling (low CoG).  Aside from saving on gas, it also saves on oil changes and brakes.  I think these things will sell like hotcakes.

I think this is a much better comparison than with any available regular car.
we shall see

if Joe six pack wants to pluck down 40Gs on something that can only be driven in town that will really surprise me
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 12, 2022, 11:31:03 AM
Ford is currently sold out and unable to take more orders.  I described the kind of person who would find this truck appealing, it's not everyone.  It's the first EV I personally think makes sense financially for quite a few folks interested in a light duty truck.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: NorthernOhioBuckeye on May 12, 2022, 12:20:56 PM
I believe you are correct that the F-150 EV makes sense to in certain situations. However, there is still a need for ICE powered trucks when the EV does not make sense. Unfortunately, there is a wide segment of the population that is unwilling to admit this fact.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Mdot21 on May 12, 2022, 01:14:28 PM
Ford is currently sold out and unable to take more orders.  I described the kind of person who would find this truck appealing, it's not everyone.  It's the first EV I personally think makes sense financially for quite a few folks interested in a light duty truck. 
supply chain issues are hurting them all. Even Tesla is now saying it may have to stop taking orders on certain models because there is way more demand than they have current capacity to actually build the damn things.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 12, 2022, 02:25:42 PM
For now, anyone needing to tow any reasonable distance needs an ICE.  There is no 2500 equivalent (yet).  As UT has noted, a plug in hybrid might be the solution there.

I see a lot of "F150s" around here, workers, contractors, etc.  The EV would meet their needs nicely, though as I noted most are buying used.

I'm surprised the price premium is not larger than it apparently is on these trucks.  I bet they start out building only the high end models like they do with the Corvette.



Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on May 13, 2022, 12:43:31 PM
I believe you are correct that the F-150 EV makes sense to in certain situations. However, there is still a need for ICE powered trucks when the EV does not make sense. Unfortunately, there is a wide segment of the population that is unwilling to admit this fact.
This is a really good point and what makes it doubly ridiculous is that some of the people unwilling to admit this are in positions of power and influence.  

If you are a contractor in a large urban area I think an EV either already is or will soon be a viable option because you don't drive all that far and there are plenty of charging stations available.  It is different if you are using this truck in a very rural area because the distances are necessarily greater and the charging stations are going to be further apart.  Add in a need to pull trailers and/or a cold climate (both the cold itself and the need to generate heat are MAJOR drains on the battery) and the EV isn't remotely close to viable.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on May 16, 2022, 10:12:25 PM
CEO Elon Musk had conceptualized and shared the idea of a truck that compared to the Ford F-250 with load-compensating suspension back in 2012. Working from that early concept, Tesla continued to design the Cybertruck over the next several years and hinted at the vehicle in November of 2017 with an image of a “pickup truck that can carry a pickup truck” at the reveal of the Tesla Roadster.

Although the truck was announced late in 2019 following a teaser in March showing the vehicle in a “cyberpunk” style and production on the dual-motor and tri-motor all-wheel drive models was meant to begin late in 2021, followed by the rear-wheel drive iteration in late 2022, the production was pushed back and now is estimated to begin sometime early in 2023.

The Tesla Cybertruck has had three different models announced, with battery range estimates ranging from 250 to 500 miles and estimated accelerations from 0-62 MPH in somewhere between 2.9 and 6.5 seconds. The truck’s rear-wheel drive model started at an MSRP of $39,900 and the all-wheel drive model started at $49.900.

The Cybertruck comes with features such as self-leveling suspension, on-board power inverters, an air compressor, an exterior made of 30x cold-rolled stainless sheet metal, and Tesla armor glass. The bed of the truck is a standard size (6.5 feet in length) with sloped walls and comes with a motorized roller cover. Also, optional is a solar panel roof that would add an addition minimum of fifteen miles of range per day.

The Stunning Interior Of The Cybertruck
The interior of the Cybertruck is unique and continues the futuristic design of the exterior, which could potentially be polarizing to some due to just how different it is. Whether you love it or hate it, though, one thing is certain-you will immediately form an opinion.

The interior was designed by a team led by Franz von Holzhausen and is spacious. The overall exterior design of the truck allows for ample room in the cabin, allowing for plenty of leg space for both the driver and all five potential passengers. The seats are leather and provide support and comfort despite their angular appearance.

Although the prototype was shown with a half steering wheel, it is highly unlikely that the final production model will attempt to have this as it is illegal in many states and many speculate that it was for design purposes only, as an accent to the futuristic image Tesla sought to project for the truck and was never planned to be included on the final model.

The command center of the truck is found in a 17-inch display control panel. The interface is easily navigable, responsive, and able to display all relevant information about the truck as well as act as the control for environmental adjustments, lighting, trip navigation, and entertainment systems. It is the only item on the dashboard, as there are no accents or additional design elements.

With extra storage beneath the back row of seats, the truck offers about 100 cubic-feet of additional space. This will come in handy for those taking advantage of some of the many features, extensions, and add-ons offered for the truck that include things like a snap on bed tent, towing package capable of pulling up to 14,000 lbs., and others that make road-trips and camping treks much more comfortable.

Despite the somewhat bare and minimalist appearance of the interior of the Tesla Cybertruck as compared to other pickups, it is spacious, comfortable, and rife with technology that improves the experience of driving and riding in the vehicle. Able to fit six adults and all your camping supplies comfortably, the Cybertruck interior is classy and sleek and will leave consumers speechless.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: NorthernOhioBuckeye on May 17, 2022, 12:21:45 PM
This is a really good point and what makes it doubly ridiculous is that some of the people unwilling to admit this are in positions of power and influence. 

If you are a contractor in a large urban area I think an EV either already is or will soon be a viable option because you don't drive all that far and there are plenty of charging stations available.  It is different if you are using this truck in a very rural area because the distances are necessarily greater and the charging stations are going to be further apart.  Add in a need to pull trailers and/or a cold climate (both the cold itself and the need to generate heat are MAJOR drains on the battery) and the EV isn't remotely close to viable. 
I think that sometimes the auto companies, the government and people in general forget that not everyone lives in an urban area. Some of us live in rural areas which require in my case, a 9 mile drive to get to a grocery store, a hardware store or many other conveniences that urban dwellers take for granted. And as you say, my reason for driving a 3/4 ton truck is that I frequently pull trailers/campers or haul material in the bed of the truck. For these reasons, an EV is completely out of the question. Yet there are many people (and as you stated, many in positions of power) that are either oblivious to these scernios or just don't care and are more than willing to mandate that we as a society move away from ICE power to EV's. 

Just wait until they try to force this on the farmers whose tractors, combines and semi's will not do well on battery power. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on May 17, 2022, 09:36:22 PM
some folks drive over 29 miles one way to get groceries

not many by percentage, but..........
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MrNubbz on June 01, 2022, 08:27:41 AM
Listen to this one more pearls from scotty

https://youtu.be/jbOlCINdsz8?t=83
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on June 01, 2022, 08:33:33 AM
I doubt anyone is forced to buy EV in the US, except there will be a time when only EVs are sold as new vehicles, which probably is ca. 2040.  I've noted before that many two car families would do well with one EV and one ICE, IF the EV presented a reasonable value proposition in starting cost.  This won't work for everyone, but it's going to be attractive, I think, for quite a few if supply can keep up and if prices come down more.

The process will be slower than many wish, but it's coming.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on June 01, 2022, 09:48:04 AM
I doubt anyone is forced to buy EV in the US, except there will be a time when only EVs are sold as new vehicles, which probably is ca. 2040.  I've noted before that many two car families would do well with one EV and one ICE, IF the EV presented a reasonable value proposition in starting cost.  This won't work for everyone, but it's going to be attractive, I think, for quite a few if supply can keep up and if prices come down more.

The process will be slower than many wish, but it's coming.
We do just fine with that setup.


(https://i.imgur.com/KOKJjpU.jpg)

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on June 01, 2022, 10:09:12 AM
love the yamaha

shoulda bought a gasser

better range
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on June 01, 2022, 10:29:45 AM
Gas is not allowed on the golf course in here. It's a big neighborhood so we use it a lot to tool around. Plenty of range for how we use it. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on June 01, 2022, 05:07:54 PM
I see Chevy has reduced pricing on their Bolt, which is not very popular (fires).  It seems like a decent enough vehicle otherwise.  It is not based on their Ultium platform.

This makes it probably the cheapest EV in the US, around $25 K.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on June 01, 2022, 05:11:50 PM
Mine was $7500.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on June 01, 2022, 05:20:39 PM
2023 Chevy Bolt EV and EUV get $6,000 price cut, start at $25,600 - Electrek (https://electrek.co/2022/06/01/2023-chevy-bolt-ev-and-euv-get-6000-price-cut-start-at-25600/)

(https://i.imgur.com/fG70GLh.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: NorthernOhioBuckeye on June 02, 2022, 08:25:31 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/WcaNjK8.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on June 02, 2022, 08:53:16 AM
When power is scarce, utilities often request users to cut back on various items, usually because of a heat wave (coupled of course with inadequate generating capacity and grid stability).

Texas is on its own and can have problems as well.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: NorthernOhioBuckeye on June 02, 2022, 12:30:53 PM
The point is that California is insisting on getting wide spread use of EV's as quickly as possible, all the while knowing that their Elec Grid cannot handle the extra load. They have experienced rolling blackouts for years due to Grid Capacity and reliable sources of electricity. Adding thousands or millions of EV's while ignoring the grid is a recipe for disaster. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on June 02, 2022, 12:39:03 PM
That it is, but I still think EV adoption is going to be slower than many imagine, or desire.  And faster than others.  It's going to be a while before they are even 20% of the cars even in CA.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on June 02, 2022, 09:10:24 PM
yup, all these claims and pronouncements of this EV and that EV by 2035 or 2040 can and probably will be rolled back

autos are like everything else and sold on supply and demand

if the demand isn't there, they won't be sold

I'm not so worried about the grid in Iowa, Nebraska and rural areas

large population centers in Cali and Texico are more likely to have major issues
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on June 03, 2022, 04:32:00 AM
I've read all sorts of projections on EV penetration, basically I think no one knows.  Anyone can project, and everyone can be wrong.

I make guesses myself, but they are hardly more than guesses, and almost certainly wrong.  I do think in time our use of petroleum will drop off as EVs really get going.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on June 03, 2022, 08:44:27 AM
DETROIT (AP) — More than 750 Tesla owners have complained to U.S. safety regulators that cars operating on its partially automated driving systems have suddenly stopped on roadways for no apparent reason.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration revealed the number in a detailed information request letter to Tesla that was posted Friday on the agency’s website.

The 14-page letter dated May 4 asks the automaker for all consumer and field reports it has received about false braking, as well as reports of crashes, injuries, deaths and property damage claims. It also asks whether the company’s “Full Self Driving” and automatic emergency braking systems were active at the time of any incident.

The agency began investigating phantom braking in Tesla’s Models 3 and Y last February after getting 354 complaints. The probe covers an estimated 416,000 vehicles from the 2021 and 2022 model years. In February, the agency said it had no reports of crashes or injuries.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on June 06, 2022, 04:37:50 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/5yBwUWQ.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on June 13, 2022, 01:15:40 PM
This Is the 2024 Chevrolet Blazer SS EV, Totally In the Open (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/2024-chevrolet-blazer-ss-ev-suv-preview-teaser/?sm_id=organic_fb_MT_trueanthem&utm_campaign=trueAnthem)

(https://i.imgur.com/NT4zZsh.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on June 13, 2022, 01:50:19 PM
That looks nice.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on June 13, 2022, 01:56:00 PM
I thought so as well.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on June 13, 2022, 02:00:27 PM
I saw my first live view of the "Mustang" yesterday. I was not impressed at all.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on June 13, 2022, 02:21:27 PM
I agree there as well.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on June 13, 2022, 11:29:23 PM
According to a Car and Driver road test with a brand new 2022 F-150 Lightning Platinum, problems started to pop up just halfway through brake testing. Six times in a row the truck was stopped from 70 mph, and the brakes began to overheat very quickly.

“After the third one a warning light came on to indicate the brakes were overheating, along with significant fade and smoke, to the point that the truck couldn’t keep ABS engaged on the later stops,” the review states.

President Biden didn’t seem to gripe about the brakes when he drove it. Just saying.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/enthusiasts/recent-test-exposes-a-ford-f-150-lightning-flaw/ar-AAYbOID?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=7b0d067290454361ae1ef18a6cd2dfa7 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/enthusiasts/recent-test-exposes-a-ford-f-150-lightning-flaw/ar-AAYbOID?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=7b0d067290454361ae1ef18a6cd2dfa7)

Because of the added heft of the battery pack, the Ford F-150 Lightning electric truck adds a bunch of weight compared to a standard F-150 for a total weight of 6,855 pounds (3,062 kg), which is a lot of heft to try and slow down. This is extra concerning considering that the truck was tested while completely unloaded, so a truck and trailer combo could likely be even more difficult to stop.

It doesn’t help that the all-electric F-150 Lightning is also considerably quicker than its gasoline counterpart, and that includes the awesome F-150 Raptor. In fact, as Car and Driver reports, the electric pickup will also dust a Mustang Mach-E GT in a sprint to 60, and a real Mustang Mach 1 would also struggle to hold its own against the formidable BEV truck, as well.

Officially, the Lightning can do the 0-60 run in 4.0-seconds, which is 1.8 seconds quicker than the Raptor. It’s not the quickest pickup on the market, however, as the Rivian R1T with a time of 3.3 seconds, while second place goes to the 702 hp Ram 1500 TRX at 3.7 seconds. The 1,000 hp GMC Hummer EV Edition 1, meanwhile, can do it in 3.0-seconds flat. And that’s with off-road tires.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on June 14, 2022, 08:03:30 AM
Brakes shouldn't heat up that quickly, but that is a torture test.  One can drive an EV without ever using the brake pedal, or the friction brakes.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on June 15, 2022, 08:37:27 AM
Future EVs: Every Electric Vehicle Coming Soon (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g29994375/future-electric-cars-trucks/?utm_source=facebook_dda&utm_medium=cpm&utm_campaign=dda_fb_cd_d_i_g29994375&src=arb_dda&fbclid=IwAR272Z99SIPcYQNHy5YVOQ1aBslnz9ZnfQ0X0P_Kh4nGpJmcwjiHDhVtat8)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on June 15, 2022, 08:42:14 AM
Brakes shouldn't heat up that quickly, but that is a torture test.  One can drive an EV without ever using the brake pedal, or the friction brakes.
apparently, Ford had a better idear
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on June 15, 2022, 08:44:55 AM
I think the friction brakes on EVs are likely not made to stand up to repeated emergency stops from 70 except perhaps on cars meant to be tracked.  That wouldn't happen in normal use.  There is a setting on most EVs one can use where you slow down (brake) merely by lifting off the accelerator, that is sufficient for "normal braking" in traffic.

The friction brakes would never be engaged, except in a full panic stop, which drivers don't encounter often, and very rarely even back to back.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on June 16, 2022, 11:05:31 AM
No Dice, ICE: European Union Upholds 2035 Internal Combustion Engine Ban (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/european-union-upholds-2035-internal-combustion-engine-ban/?sm_id=organic_fb_AMAG_trueanthem&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=&utm_source=&fbclid=IwAR1FcYgxmw0KsAj9-2Ya9FAGGYGNAR7PG9dMgoFSprrfrn0KYoOTFu5HSGw)

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on June 16, 2022, 03:09:49 PM
In-road inductive charging tests demonstrate unlimited EV range (newatlas.com) (https://newatlas.com/automotive/stellantis-road-charging-induction/?fbclid=IwAR0gfstRhC0tNaNYi0D5EWQompNnn75ac1nLe2vbewB2rg7LlBlq6ymml10)

Initial tests are complete, and Stellantis says the power transfer efficiency is "comparable to the typical efficiency of fast charging stations." The magnetic fields involved, says the company, have "no impact on the driver and passengers," and are safe for pedestrians to walk through. Running on DC means the DWTP can use relatively thin, compact cabling, and it can also be directly and efficiently connected to renewable energy sources without the need to convert back and forth from AC.

So it can be done, and it works. But there's no word on whether, or when, the DWTP system will be rolled out on public roadways. Getting a project like this off the ground at commercial scale poses a series of chicken-and-egg problems, and may well end up costing more than it can bring back in revenue. These things will only make sense if they're rolled out on very long stretches of high-traffic highway, if drivers can be accurately billed for their use, and if enough people buy compatible cars to make them worthwhile.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on June 24, 2022, 10:55:28 PM
June 24 (UPI) -- Toyota has recalled more than 2,000 all-electric SUVs over problems that could cause the wheels or axles to fall off.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/toyota-recalls-all-electric-bz4x-over-wheels-falling-off/ar-AAYQ0Co?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=3db471d697394c968594a2bca1166614 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/toyota-recalls-all-electric-bz4x-over-wheels-falling-off/ar-AAYQ0Co?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=3db471d697394c968594a2bca1166614)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: longhorn320 on June 24, 2022, 11:23:51 PM
June 24 (UPI) -- Toyota has recalled more than 2,000 all-electric SUVs over problems that could cause the wheels or axles to fall off.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/toyota-recalls-all-electric-bz4x-over-wheels-falling-off/ar-AAYQ0Co?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=3db471d697394c968594a2bca1166614 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/toyota-recalls-all-electric-bz4x-over-wheels-falling-off/ar-AAYQ0Co?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=3db471d697394c968594a2bca1166614)
reminds me of this


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-Hz6QIbCt0
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on June 24, 2022, 11:39:18 PM
He doesn't drink anymore.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: longhorn320 on June 25, 2022, 12:18:05 AM
He doesn't drink anymore.
He probably doesnt drink any less either

just kidding I know hes on the wagon

I hope hes successful at that
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on June 26, 2022, 04:10:13 PM
ExxonMobil’s calculations predicted that oil demand in 2040 would be equivalent to what the world needed in 2013 or 2014. Woods explained to CNBC that the company was still profitable at that time.

Exxon Mobil CEO: All new passenger cars will be electric by 2040 (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/25/exxon-mobil-ceo-all-new-passenger-cars-will-be-electric-by-2040.html)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MarqHusker on June 26, 2022, 06:42:20 PM
Best looking color scheme I've seen on a Tesla.  Single pic isn't justice here.  Your POV, lighting and time of day makes this really cool looking 

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on June 27, 2022, 08:16:29 AM
I wonder if all roadways will be electric by 2040. Can't make asphalt without oil.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on June 27, 2022, 08:25:15 AM
The Exxon guy says oil demand will remain high in 2040, just down a bit from today.  And of course IF all NEW cars are EVs, many many cars on the road will be ICE.

The replacement rate would be rather slow even so with ~17 million new cars a year and ~300 million cars total in the US.

It'll be faster in Europe.  Slower in Africa ...
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on June 28, 2022, 08:46:03 AM
New York Will Ban Sale of New Gasoline Cars by 2035 (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a37624295/new-york-gas-cars-ban-2035/?utm_medium=social-media&src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&fbclid=IwAR1hLKZOlJpEBuEusSOI4UHUzMy9-V7j3pHULB2fSHcnGEsvLlLr8ZbOZRQ)

It's a toothless law that really is a goal.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on June 28, 2022, 09:12:24 AM
2023 Cadillac Lyriq Is the Right Car at the Right Time (roadandtrack.com) (https://www.roadandtrack.com/reviews/a40436258/2023-cadillac-lyriq-first-drive-review/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social-media&utm_campaign=socialflowR%26T&fbclid=IwAR2HmQjHtgShysr-_4-nkw-8ET02FhY8BEUagXgrKq6_bJoCDxe9a5oKins)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on June 28, 2022, 10:00:20 PM
It might be, but can they build many?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on June 29, 2022, 01:01:32 AM
It might be, but can they build many?
I hope not.  It's pretty ugly, just like all the other small SUVs out there these days.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on June 29, 2022, 08:04:14 AM
There is a supply constraint on EVs right now, and it's still a small market.  I don't know where real demand is after first adopters.  Obviously more folks are interested today than 2-3 years ago.  It's a fascinating development I think and could either completely change a large industry in two decades, or something else.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on June 29, 2022, 08:37:12 AM
There is a supply constraint on vehicles right now
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on June 29, 2022, 08:41:34 AM
Yeah, I'm glad I'm not in the market.

Used car prices look insane to me.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on June 29, 2022, 09:14:12 AM
Cadillac Lyriq first drive: A year early and dollar long at $60K - Electrek (https://electrek.co/2022/06/28/cadillac-lyriq-review/?fbclid=IwAR1hLKZOlJpEBuEusSOI4UHUzMy9-V7j3pHULB2fSHcnGEsvLlLr8ZbOZRQ)

At just over $60,000, (https://electrek.co/2020/08/12/cadillac-lyriq-electric-car-price/) this is a phenomenal car. GM/Cadillac did have to cut some corners to get one to us this year, but the final product is still one of the most luxurious EVs on the market. Plus all of the 2023s are already sold and I have a feeling the 2024s reservations are going to go quick as well.

I can’t wait to try the AWD version with Super Cruise for a longer drive. Cadillac when!?!?

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on June 29, 2022, 01:54:59 PM
2023 Cadillac Lyriq vs. BMW iX: Electric Luxury SUV On-Paper Comparison (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/2023-cadillac-lyriq-vs-bmw-ix-ev-suv-specs-comparison/?sm_id=organic_fb_AMAG_trueanthem&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=&utm_source=&fbclid=IwAR1GLfkSXnLLfHwz5_gp_CgWdxp2XSQcdVYbcYHzZGkgGM3nU819v-LqsKU)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on June 29, 2022, 03:06:29 PM
BMW M CEO: There Is No Alternative to Going Electric (roadandtrack.com) (https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a40434438/bmw-m-ceo-there-is-no-alternative-to-going-electric/?utm_medium=social-media&utm_campaign=socialflowR%26T&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR2R8MsqiI2sPgh4ZPaEzt_-5GY8DKFV9xFws5D4Tlo_JX1gWtEbnb_TxdQ)

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on June 29, 2022, 09:54:03 PM
well, I'm not so sure about that

history states otherwise
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on June 30, 2022, 08:19:30 AM
I think by 2040 MOST new cars in the US will be EVs.  There will be a few exceptions.  The overall fleet will still be mostly ICE.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on June 30, 2022, 04:11:31 PM
Nations Work to Postpone Electric Car Mandates, U.S. Could Be Next (reason.com) (https://reason.com/2022/06/29/some-countries-are-having-second-thoughts-about-electric-car-mandates/?fbclid=IwAR3NmzxlvuyxKr1ITlW8ZaUw6sdsa2LFP5G61L0y-0ILh6ydIjdlvsMFN4g)

It's facile to set some goal like this with no real enablement knowing you'll be long out of office by the day of reckoning.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 01, 2022, 08:04:05 AM
GM, Ford Poised to Eat Tesla’s Lunch Over Next Four Years (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-general-motors-ford-shares-analysis-car-wars/?sm_id=organic_fb_MT_trueanthem&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=&utm_source=&fbclid=IwAR2d64FjPZmo5WcMSz92Eophsm8VxMqvkl0Eg2TYJWPB55DN9_Fz2n42gfk)

Tesla has held about 70 percent of the EV market share in recent years. That is forecast to drop to a mere 11 percent over the next four years, says John Murphy, the Bank of America analyst behind the annual Car Wars (https://s3-prod.autonews.com/2021-06/BofA Global Research Car Wars.pdf) report that looks at the auto industry and predicts which companies are on a winning path and which are not.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on July 01, 2022, 08:35:37 AM
yup, too many chevy and ford guys just not gonna buy a Tesla or toyota
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 01, 2022, 08:38:09 AM
Both the EV trucks look pretty awesome to me so far.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 01, 2022, 09:47:10 AM
Tested: 2022 Ford F-150 Lightning Is a Familiar Brute (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a40393084/2022-ford-f-150-lightning-by-the-numbers/?src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&utm_medium=social-media&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR0vWfeiJse1ZymVt807t87tLTFi9rngxijqeWLK4jcVlX2QfghZwqnfYO8)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 04, 2022, 08:18:22 AM
GM Has 12 EVs Coming: Here's What They Are (Probably) (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/features/gm-12-electric-vehicles-coming-cadillac-chevy-gmc-buick/?sm_id=organic_fb_AMAG_trueanthem&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=&utm_source=&fbclid=IwAR0x4U0ZxOkMJifmCh2Z4ys_PvINsJaXZy-FdSWFo814DCtTLqMUJViomrk)

Not really very edifying.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on July 09, 2022, 02:29:59 PM
The first car Porsche ever made had an electric engine. The 1898 “Egger-Lohner electric vehicle, C.2 Phaeton model," or “P1,” which required over 1,000 lbs of batteries, could drive almost 50 miles on a charge and reached speeds of 22 mph.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on July 10, 2022, 09:12:22 AM
YouTube publisher Fast Lane Truck did a comparison between an electric and a gas-powered pickup to determine how far each could tow a 3-ton box trailer.

The contestants were an electrified Ford F150 pickup vs. a GMC Denali Ultimate Edition with a 6.2-liter V-8 gas engine.


https://ijr.com/journalists-tow-camper-behind-electric-truck-end-stunning-failure/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=ijr&utm_content=2022-07-07&utm_campaign=manualpost (https://ijr.com/journalists-tow-camper-behind-electric-truck-end-stunning-failure/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=ijr&utm_content=2022-07-07&utm_campaign=manualpost)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on July 11, 2022, 10:14:01 PM
Ford dealer in Kentucky – Paducah Ford – tested the F-150 Lightning's towing capacity. The dealer actually pulled 17,000 pounds with the truck, which is something you shouldn't do, since it's not rated to tow such a heavy load. However, as expected, the electric truck was certainly up to the task.

Paducah Ford also compares the F-150 Lightning's towing capability and range to that of the F-150 PowerBoost Hybrid. Needless to say, both trucks are able to tow 10,000 pounds with no issue, though the hybrid definitely struggles much more to get up to speed.

The Lightning used about three times the range it was expected to use if it wasn't towing. Over the course of about 16 miles of towing, the Lightning's range estimate was down nearly 50 miles. Interestingly, the PowerBoost hybrid consumed the equivalent of about 52 miles of range to cover the same distance.


Moving up to a whopping 17,000 pounds, the F-150 Lightning fared impressively well, though the dealer didn't take the truck on the highway. Still, the truck's acceleration and driving manners really took him by surprise.

It's important to note that while towing 17,000 pounds at up to 45 mph (no freeway driving), the Lightning only used about 21 miles of estimated range to travel a real-world 15 miles. Obviously, the heavier weight will make a bigger hit on the truck's range, though the lower speed towing proved to be much less taxing on the truck's efficiency.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/ford-f-150-lightning-tows-17-000-pounds-with-ease-range-impresses/ar-AAZsiMi?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=8a54c21adc0c4d3f9fb897b216ceb6d8 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/ford-f-150-lightning-tows-17-000-pounds-with-ease-range-impresses/ar-AAZsiMi?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=8a54c21adc0c4d3f9fb897b216ceb6d8)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MrNubbz on July 15, 2022, 01:13:23 PM

Tesla owners in Texas have been asked to avoid charging their expensive electric cars (https://metro.co.uk/2022/07/07/star-wars-writer-says-theatre-mode-error-made-his-tesla-undriveable-16953937/) so they don’t crash the electricity grid.

The US state has a notoriously fragile electrical grid which is made worse by extremely hot or cold weather.
Like the UK (https://metro.co.uk/2022/07/15/met-office-issues-level-4-red-alert-putting-uk-on-national-emergency-footing-17005344/), Texas is currently in the grip of a heatwave and, since May, six power plants have already been tripped in the state.
Trying to do its bit to help, Tesla has sent an in-car noitification to owners telling them to avoid charging between 3pm and 8pm if they can help it.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on July 15, 2022, 09:37:27 PM
Elon the hero, once again!

The Lone star grid - the villian, once again
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on July 15, 2022, 11:56:28 PM
Lulz.  Texas grid has been fine.  

Beware politicos pushing agendas.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: longhorn320 on July 16, 2022, 12:44:13 AM
about 2 weeks ago in the middle of the day there was a big explosion and the lights went out.  I thought oh great a transformer blew which they do from time to time.

I was impressed with the speed CenterPoint came out and replaced it. It was about 90 minutes which is pretty quick.  The only problem was about ten minutes after the power was restored it blew again.  This time it took about 3 hours probably cause they had to fix what they didnt fix the first time.

Still I give a lot of credit to CenterPoint for their quick response.

My dad was an electrician by trade and during the summer break from college I went out with him as a hired summer helper.

Whenever they would power up a new transformer (in one of several chemical plants around my home town) for the first time it was like getting ready to set off explosives in that everybody had to get some distance away before they made it hot.  These things were the size of a phone booth and if they exploded it was jaw dropping.


Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 16, 2022, 06:05:06 AM
Tested: 2022 Ford F-150 Lightning Is a Familiar Brute (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a40393084/2022-ford-f-150-lightning-by-the-numbers/?src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&utm_medium=social-media&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR0vWfeiJse1ZymVt807t87tLTFi9rngxijqeWLK4jcVlX2QfghZwqnfYO8)
This is amazing.
Growing up, my favorite supercar was the Ferrari F40.  And now, 30 years later, we have a normal pickup truck that is quiet, has no emissions, weighs well over twice as much, able to go 0-60 in the same amount of time.
Remarkable.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 16, 2022, 08:18:06 AM
I recall that transformers are the most efficient device made by humans.  They are quite simple, no moving parts, I guess at some point they can short out and heat up.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on July 16, 2022, 08:43:52 AM
Lulz.  Texas grid has been fine. 

well, since the incident during the winter
but as we all acknowledge, that was a 500 year abnormality 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MrNubbz on July 16, 2022, 09:13:59 AM
Lulz.  Texas grid has been fine. 

Beware politicos pushing agendas.
Just repeating the message but your statement cuts both ways as far as pushing an agenda.Not everyone has how much to purchase a like vehicle and the time it takes to charge such a thing.of course those MILLIONS of miles of power lines needed will just appear and not burden the already weighed down grid   just ask John Kerry - it'd frightening he could hold any position at a federal level

PS i hate the oil men if the politicians weren't such clueless hacks it could be regulated
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on July 16, 2022, 09:29:41 AM
Just repeating the message but your statement cuts both ways as far as pushing an agenda.Not everyone has how much to purchase a like vehicle and the time it takes to charge such a thing.of course those MILLIONS of miles of power lines needed will just appear and not burden the already weighed down grid  just ask John Kerry - it'd frightening he could hold any position at a federal level

PS i hate the oil men if the politicians weren't such clueless hacks it could be regulated
Well sure.  It'll be a challenge EVERYWHERE. Which is basically my point.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MrNubbz on July 16, 2022, 09:33:11 AM
Ever have a Point Beer from Stevens Point Wisconsin? Use to be some decent suds back in the day before one could get their mitts on some Craft or Canadian
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 16, 2022, 09:40:17 AM
We are not going to switch to EVs wholesale in short order, they sell everyone they make now pretty much quickly.  It's going to be gradual.  It's not a solution to short term oil prices, even in California.

I've noted before that perhaps in ten to fifteen years most NEW cars will be EVs, OK fine, but even so it takes a while to replace the fleet.  A long while.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on July 16, 2022, 09:44:05 AM
Ever have a Point Beer from Stevens Point Wisconsin? Use to be some decent suds back in the day before one could get their mitts on some Craft or Canadian
I have not.  I've actually never been to Wisconsin.  Minnesota's the closest I've been.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 16, 2022, 10:06:02 AM
Minnesota is Baja Manitoba. Need a passport to get in there.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MrNubbz on July 16, 2022, 11:15:25 AM
Ya a Juicy Lucy and a Hamm's
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 16, 2022, 11:19:52 AM
I've never been to North Dakota, that's my sole missing state.

I may buy an EV and drive there someday.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MrNubbz on July 16, 2022, 12:22:58 PM
Take a Conestoga more with theme can even stop at Deadwood on the way up
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on July 16, 2022, 01:39:52 PM
Ya a Juicy Lucy and a Hamm's
Don't recall what beer I had with my Jucy Lucys at Matt's Bar.  Whatever it was faded away compared to the deliciousness of that burger.

Heck, why didn't Matt's Bar make it onto that Top 30 burger list?  It deserves a spot.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 16, 2022, 02:50:06 PM
An EV tow hitch to prevent electrocutions.... for @utee94 (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=15) 

(https://i.imgur.com/4gCYItb.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on July 17, 2022, 07:23:30 PM
I've never been to North Dakota, that's my sole missing state.

I may buy an EV and drive there someday.
it doesn't suck

well, it sucks horribly in the winter
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on July 17, 2022, 07:23:54 PM
Don't recall what beer I had with my Jucy Lucys at Matt's Bar.  Whatever it was faded away compared to the deliciousness of that burger.

Heck, why didn't Matt's Bar make it onto that Top 30 burger list?  It deserves a spot.
I had a Bud Fat
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Gigem on July 18, 2022, 11:41:42 AM
So you may recall that my father in law has an electric car, a chevy bolt.  Paid around $30,000 for it a few years ago, 260+ mile range.  

I rented a house about 100 miles from where he lives.  He came down to visit in his electric car.  He asked me if the house had a dryer plug so he could charge his car.  I told him yes, but he needed a long plug to reach the parking area, about 50 feet.  He's a stubborn old bastard, did not bring the extra cord.  Sure enough, he needed at least 20-30 more feet of plug to even be close to plugging in his car.  

Since his car is part of the battery recall it will only charge to like 80%.  it was on 76% when he left our town, and was down to ~120 miles of charge when he got to the city we were staying in (Port O'Connor, TX).  We looked around for a 230 V outlet like an RV plug or similar but the only plug was for the dryer and the cord wouldn't reach.  His plant was to stay a few hours, charge the car 20-50 miles of extra charge, and head home.  He barely made it, with the A/C off on a 100 degree day.  

It probably would have been OK if there had been a level 3 charger on the way home, but there is not.  We're not there yet with EV infrastructure to take these cars on longer trips.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on July 18, 2022, 03:45:20 PM
apparently wasn't a boy scout

wasn't prepared
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 27, 2022, 12:32:35 PM
In May 2022, 79% of new passenger vehicles sold in Norway were battery electric powered. With plug-in hybrids accounting for an additional 8 percent, only about 1 in 8 new cars sold in Norway were traditionally configured gasoline cars.
Indeed, Norway leads the world in electric vehicle (EV) adoption with 17 percent of its passenger vehicle fleet currently consisting of electric vehicles, says Maryland Smith’s David A. Kirsch (https://www.rhsmith.umd.edu/directory/david-kirsch). However, the total vehicle fleet in Norway is only a few million vehicles in a distinctly wealthy and small Nordic country and perhaps not representative of the world at large.
But there’s a different way to look at this, he adds. “As sci-fi writer William Gibson famously wrote, the ‘future is already here; it's not very evenly distributed.’ For the future of electrification of mobility, the future is already here, and it's in Norway.” Kirsch, associate professor of management and entrepreneurship at the University of Maryland’s Robert H. Smith School of Business, shared this observation in a Twitter thread (https://twitter.com/darchivist/status/1541243451035078657) after attending the 35th International Electric Vehicle Symposium in Oslo, Norway.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: grillrat on July 27, 2022, 02:06:25 PM
So you may recall that my father in law has an electric car, a chevy bolt.  Paid around $30,000 for it a few years ago, 260+ mile range. 

I rented a house about 100 miles from where he lives.  He came down to visit in his electric car.  He asked me if the house had a dryer plug so he could charge his car.  I told him yes, but he needed a long plug to reach the parking area, about 50 feet.  He's a stubborn old bastard, did not bring the extra cord.  Sure enough, he needed at least 20-30 more feet of plug to even be close to plugging in his car. 

Since his car is part of the battery recall it will only charge to like 80%.  it was on 76% when he left our town, and was down to ~120 miles of charge when he got to the city we were staying in (Port O'Connor, TX).  We looked around for a 230 V outlet like an RV plug or similar but the only plug was for the dryer and the cord wouldn't reach.  His plant was to stay a few hours, charge the car 20-50 miles of extra charge, and head home.  He barely made it, with the A/C off on a 100 degree day. 

It probably would have been OK if there had been a level 3 charger on the way home, but there is not.  We're not there yet with EV infrastructure to take these cars on longer trips. 
The wife is seriously considering an electric car now.  I might get one of these puppies and throw it in the trunk so that, if a similar situation as the one you described happens, she can just whip out the solar panel, wait a couple of hours, and then keep going.

I mean, you'll only maybe get an extra 10 to 20 miles that way, but that could be enough to get you to the nearest charging station.

Portable Solar Panel with Battery and 230V Outlet / 250W / 256Wh / 70000mAh | Portable Solar Generator | Mobisun Pro | Mobisun International (https://www.mobisun.com/mobisun-pro-portable-solar-panel-battery-generator-230v/)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 27, 2022, 02:08:33 PM
You'd be better off charging off a 120 v line I suspect (3-5 miles of range per hour).  It's very slow, but PVs of that size don't generate much juice either.  The extra battery can help of course.



Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on July 27, 2022, 02:08:57 PM
only 10-20 miles to a charging station???
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on July 27, 2022, 02:09:44 PM
yup, put a generator and a gas can in the trunk
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: grillrat on July 27, 2022, 02:34:20 PM
only 10-20 miles to a charging station???
Surprisingly, yeah.  Obviously some areas are still fairly sparse (ie, Nevada and Wyoming), but for states like Ohio / Michigan / Indiana, there's probably a charging station within 20 miles of any place in the state.

PlugShare - EV Charging Station Map - Find a place to charge your car!

 (https://www.plugshare.com/)I'm an engineer in the building construction industry.  My company releases a design for a new apartment building at the rate of about 1 or 2 a week.  About 90% of the buildings we have released this year have had provisions for charging stations in the parking lots (mostly in the Indiana / Ohio areas).  The infrastructure is not there yet, but it's coming at a decent pace.

 (https://www.plugshare.com/)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: grillrat on July 27, 2022, 02:38:50 PM
You'd be better off charging off a 120 v line I suspect (3-5 miles of range per hour).  It's very slow, but PVs of that size don't generate much juice either.  The extra battery can help of course.




I'm thinking more along the lines of "stuck on the side of the road" situations, but yeah, I get what you are saying.  There are larger portable units (2000w) that have 120v outlets, so you could go with one of those and then get a converter plug.  The reason to go with the 230v output on the solar array is that the charge flow rate into the car is faster.  I haven't done a comprehensive search yet, so ideally I would like a 2000w system with a 230v output.  My limited research hasn't found one yet though.  It may exist, may not.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 27, 2022, 03:21:26 PM
Worried about EV range? A portable charger could help | Popular Science (popsci.com) (https://www.popsci.com/technology/zipcharge-go-portable-ev-battery/)

OK, but $67 per month????
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on July 27, 2022, 03:25:39 PM
Just keep one of these in the trunk of your EV at all times.  No worries.

(https://i.imgur.com/CjuZat6.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on July 27, 2022, 03:33:47 PM
Worried about EV range? A portable charger could help | Popular Science (popsci.com) (https://www.popsci.com/technology/zipcharge-go-portable-ev-battery/)

OK, but $67 per month????
that's a very small price to pay for every automobile owning American to save the planet
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 27, 2022, 03:34:26 PM
Ultrafast, Portable EV Charging – evunited (https://evunited.com/collections/ultrafast-portable-ev-charging)

The cheapest one is over $16 K ...

I can see AAA trucks having one, but not me.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on July 27, 2022, 03:44:15 PM
could use it for a side hustle
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 27, 2022, 03:45:07 PM
I don't think the numbers work.  You can recharge one EV with another in many cases.  You can even run your house on the new trucks for quite a while.

I think that makes the most sense.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on July 27, 2022, 03:47:06 PM
Texans should  invest in a new truck

for when the grid goes down again
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on July 27, 2022, 03:48:54 PM
Don't need it, I already own two of the things I posted above.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on July 28, 2022, 09:01:41 AM
GM Wants to Change the Narrative Around Cadillac
The group has just revealed this concept car on Instagram.

It's an an imposing luxury electric sedan that the company aims to bring to market by 2024.  The design draws on the Cadillac mythos. It has futuristic lines which, especially in the rear area, offers a very innovative look, using two pairs of boomerang LEDs that act as optical groups and at the same time as real styling cues on the side. The rear part is very plunging but, given the length of the vehicle, one could almost see a cross between the 4-seater coupe and the hunting station wagon.

Celestiq's designers have traveled back in time to study pre-war V-16s and the 1957 Eldorado Brougham to draw inspiration. Fewer than 400 Eldorado Broughams were built, for a starting price of $13,074 each. At the time, a Rolls-Royce Silver Wrath was sold for $9,000. Adjusted for inflation, those figures would be roughly 10 times as much today.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/cadillac-reaches-back-to-glory-days-to-inspire-new-hand-built-luxury-model/ar-AAZTVPw?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=71c7882fa3de4b588fddb142ae13d1da (https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/cadillac-reaches-back-to-glory-days-to-inspire-new-hand-built-luxury-model/ar-AAZTVPw?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=71c7882fa3de4b588fddb142ae13d1da)

300,000 a Unit?
The roof also uses smart glass technology , which creates four distinct areas that can be masked by the respective passengers to control the amount of light coming through.

GM still hasn't released technical information on the Cadillac Celestiq. We know that this sedan will be electric but we still don't know how many miles it will be able to travel with a charge, for example.

Production, which will be based on GM's Ultium modular platform for EVs, is expected to begin in late 2023.

The Celestiq will be a very niche and exclusive product, GM says, with each unit hand-crafted and customized for each buyer at dedicated facilities in Warren, Mich. Its base price could be around $300,000 or more. The auto maker intends to build fewer than 500 Celestiqs annually as a way to showcase its technology, boost rarity value and generate buzz for Cadillac.

Earlier this month, GM said it was investing more than $81 million into the GM Technical Center in Warren for the Celestiq. The car will be equipped with the new generation of Ultra Cruise, the company's driver assistance system.

Cadillac aims for an all-electric portfolio by 2030.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Gigem on August 02, 2022, 09:05:43 AM
The wife is seriously considering an electric car now.  I might get one of these puppies and throw it in the trunk so that, if a similar situation as the one you described happens, she can just whip out the solar panel, wait a couple of hours, and then keep going.

I mean, you'll only maybe get an extra 10 to 20 miles that way, but that could be enough to get you to the nearest charging station.

Portable Solar Panel with Battery and 230V Outlet / 250W / 256Wh / 70000mAh | Portable Solar Generator | Mobisun Pro | Mobisun International (https://www.mobisun.com/mobisun-pro-portable-solar-panel-battery-generator-230v/)
Just don't try to road-trip in an EV to an area that doesn't have supporting infrastructure.  Especially when you have 3-4 other vehicles that will do the job nicely.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on August 02, 2022, 09:21:54 AM
You can still charge on 110v regular outlets, it's just very slow, 3-5 miles per hour of range.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on August 02, 2022, 09:24:56 AM
yup, if you're going to an area that doesn't have fast chargers - Wyoming, Montana, North & South Dakota, Nebraska,,,,

you have plenty of time
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on August 02, 2022, 06:19:00 PM
The U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission has approved the first-ever small modular reactor, from NuScale, a step toward the goal of a next-generation form of clean energy.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/nuclear-regulatory-commission-certifies-first-small-modular-reactor/ar-AA10e9xE?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=442b1fa16f2b45708644370a85d70e4f (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/nuclear-regulatory-commission-certifies-first-small-modular-reactor/ar-AA10e9xE?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=442b1fa16f2b45708644370a85d70e4f)

"The affirmation of NuScale's design and strong safety case could not have come at a more crucial time — when around the world, people are struggling from the compounding crises of volatile energy prices and climate change-driven extreme weather events,” NuScale president and CEO John Hopkins said in a statement shared on Twitter.

“We are pleased with this continued recognition of our technology's inherent safety design and our potential as a timely, carbon-free energy solution to meet our global community's needs,” Hopkins added.

The commission said Friday that it has directed its staff to approve the design of NuScale’s generation-IV nuclear reactor for certification. The certification will take effect 30 days after NRC staff publish the rule in the Federal Register.

The reactor’s approval is a major milestone for NuScale, which applied in December 2016 to certify its small modular reactor design for use in the U.S.

It is also a major step for the NRC, which has only authorized six reactor design certificates since its establishment in 1974. The NRC previously authorized designs for the advanced boiling water reactor, System 80+, AP600, AP1000, the economic simplified boiling water reactor, and the APR1400.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on August 04, 2022, 09:03:08 AM
EV Charging Infrastructure in America Still Sucks (roadandtrack.com) (https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a36175755/ev-charging-infrastructure-in-america-still-sucks/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social-media&utm_campaign=socialflowR%26T&fbclid=IwAR1lWEjLTGzlWDKnjL1VhSphig6wMvQUIgR5VgkORt2K94tVlq-XnyHKa9c)

Question, if you leave your car alone while charging, can someone else pull up, disconnect you, and charge their car instead?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on August 04, 2022, 09:26:37 AM
Nikola NKLA Q2 2022 earnings (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/04/nikola-nkla-q2-2022-earnings.html)

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: grillrat on August 04, 2022, 11:25:29 AM
Well, the wife went out and bought a 2022 Chevy Bolt.  Installers for the charging station come out on the 22nd, so we will have to use the 120V until then (or go down to the nearest charging station next to our favorite local restaurant).
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on August 04, 2022, 11:26:44 AM
Let us know how she likes it and how well it works for your needs.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on August 04, 2022, 11:33:47 AM
Well, the wife went out and bought a 2022 Chevy Bolt.  Installers for the charging station come out on the 22nd, so we will have to use the 120V until then (or go down to the nearest charging station next to our favorite local restaurant).
That's the way I'd do it.  And hope it takes EXTRA long, to squeeze in an extra margarita or two. :)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Gigem on August 08, 2022, 11:25:45 AM
It's a neat little car, but the seats are horrendous.  Get the seats fixed ASAP by a car interior shop, it will make the whole experience much better.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on August 08, 2022, 06:20:47 PM
e-mobility-how-many-evs-can-the-power-network-cope-with | 2020 | Siemens Global (https://new.siemens.com/global/en/company/stories/infrastructure/2020/e-mobility-how-many-evs-can-the-power-network-cope-with.html#tblciGiCGFWfWaZHereqUPD_MSop02M9XiI6gycs96F3wzJhcWyCgq0Uol4L-rbnO1NuaAQ&recirc=taboolaexternal)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on August 09, 2022, 01:56:02 PM
2023 Chevrolet Corvette E-Ray Will Be All Ate Up With Vette Firsts (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/2023-chevrolet-corvette-e-ray-awd-hybrid-preview/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AMT%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR1SPl0QmNybfk5mUJ684zWz_q1f2wznPJ25XjKFyiJUTHx6JNdwIPr7emo)

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Honestbuckeye on August 21, 2022, 08:04:10 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzQNrVqg_8Q
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on August 22, 2022, 08:18:35 AM
EV tax credit consequence: Plug-in vehicle lease prices are soaring (greencarreports.com) (https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1136891_ev-tax-credit-plug-in-vehicle-lease-prices-are-soaring?fbclid=IwAR3G8AYMo_KrFGI3uRMxsRRU9cDsdiVgWecgjcb3c4Dcigd2WF2orkM_v1E)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on August 25, 2022, 02:03:15 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/IZDPRwx.png)

Here's How Fast the Latest EVs Can Charge (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a40929408/ev-charging-chart-rates/?utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&utm_medium=social-media&utm_source=facebook&src=socialflowFBCAD&fbclid=IwAR3NblZn06V3jegY8Kgk3lfpV4h0UmXRXVuKg_L_Pm1ASBN0_tQ_cnXuXHk)

We’ve condensed that data to two figures shown in the chart below: the average charging rate for the entire time plugged in and the time it takes to add 100 real-world highway miles, using the results from our 75-mph range test.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on August 26, 2022, 09:12:59 PM
According to research by video producer B Rich on YouTube, the upcoming 2023 Ford F-150 Lightning is going to cost people much more than they might expect. We know Ford is raising the price of its electric pickup truck, but B Rich notes that the potentially higher prices are due in part to the impact of the Inflation Reduction Act of 2022, which includes a new Electric Vehicle (EV) Tax Credit.

We already told you all about the Ford F-150 Lightning's upcoming price hikes. In addition, we shared information from Ford CEO Jim Farley explaining the price increases going forward. Basically, a roughly $6,000 to $8,500 price increase across the lineup was put into place recently for the next wave of orders. Ford says people who placed their orders ahead of the increase will not have to pay extra, though their dealer could add a markup.

B Rich briefly explains the changes that will come as a result of the new US federal EV tax credit. More specifically, it gets into the various caps on the price of the vehicles. Due to the $80,000 cap for trucks, none of the 2023 F-150 Lightning electric trucks with the Extended Range battery will qualify for the credit.


The video goes on to look at the prices of each trim level for 2023 compared to 2022, with the official price hikes and the new EV tax credit in mind. Looking at the cheapest option, the electric truck will cost $7,000 more for 2023, which essentially negates the tax credit. Midrange trims tell a similar story, and if you add too many features or extras, the price can climb to over $80,000, which means no tax credit.







Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on August 27, 2022, 07:45:56 AM
What Does the Future Hold for EVs? Look at Norway - (cleantechnica.com) (https://cleantechnica.com/2022/08/23/what-does-the-future-hold-for-evs-look-at-norway/?fbclid=IwAR3scoL0oKIaLg9wVpQoCn0dGH8XyiJXHDniVKfzSZ-yHGlgH8U9lCHdkGo)

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on September 01, 2022, 07:56:51 AM
I Did 1,200 Miles in a Chevy Bolt EUV, but the Charging Network Didn’t Help (thedrive.com) (https://www.thedrive.com/guides-and-gear/i-did-1200-miles-in-a-chevy-bolt-euv-but-the-charging-network-didnt-help?utm_campaign=trueanthem_AI&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_term=thedrive&fbclid=IwAR2LuUDdzkQf0_Wq0TCAdkhfKXEV1YcxWPyg4737gJ5vQ_5-m301kMpMqAQ)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: NorthernOhioBuckeye on September 01, 2022, 08:40:05 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/oBGoTSe.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on September 01, 2022, 08:44:52 AM
That is a gas powered van, but it's towing a battery, not a generator.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: NorthernOhioBuckeye on September 01, 2022, 12:16:16 PM

(https://i.imgur.com/6zkueJ6.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on September 01, 2022, 12:19:01 PM
Another misleading meme, they are not popping up everywhere, they are being built in places where there is no access to electrical power.

And it does not take 3 hours to get 200 miles of range either in most EVs.

Memes are nearly always stupid.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: NorthernOhioBuckeye on September 01, 2022, 12:19:44 PM
And yet more stupidity from our Left coast:

Californians told not to charge electric cars days after gas car sales ban (https://www.newsweek.com/californians-told-not-charge-electric-cars-gas-car-sales-ban-1738398)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: NorthernOhioBuckeye on September 01, 2022, 12:27:50 PM
Another misleading meme, they are not popping up everywhere, they are being built in places where there is no access to electrical power.

And it does not take 3 hours to get 200 miles of range either in most EVs.

Memes are nearly always stupid.
Ok, but the fact that you have to install petrolium powered generators to power your electric car, kind of ruins the whole "save the plant" purpose of the EV. The point of the meme is to point out the absurdity of the whole EV trend. 

Look, I have no problem with EV's, I think they could be the future of personal transportation. But the infrastructure is not yet in place to support them no matter how much some people and politicians want it to be. California was having rolling blackouts long before EV's became a thing and with a slightly smaller population. Now there are over 600,000 EV's in that state representing a fraction of the total number of cars on the highway. And in 13 years, they hope to be almost fully EV, yet they are already having trouble keeping the lights on. 

As far as EV's being carbon neutural or emissions free, that is another lie being perpetuated by many. Just the mining of the rare earth minerals to build the batteries, consumes enough petrolium to power a ICE vehichle for a number of years. And then, once the batteries are worn out, they become a environmental hazard to dispose of.  Never mind the fact that we have to import those materials from places like China or Chinese controlled territories. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on September 01, 2022, 12:29:33 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/6zkueJ6.jpg)
that's not a 350KW generator
probably 35KW

might use 1 gallon of fuel per hour
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on September 01, 2022, 12:31:59 PM
Yup.  The actual facts about EVs are important, they have tradeoffs, some pos some neg, like nearly everything in life.

The biased folks will present only one side.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Gigem on September 01, 2022, 12:40:51 PM
1). The infrastructure is coming. Slowly, but surely. On the flip side of things, I can’t refuel my ICE vehicle at home. 

2). The disposal and recycling of batteries is in its infancy. I would guess that most large li-ion batteries would be recycled. Some can be repurposed. 

3). Agreed on the lithium mining industry, but it’s no dirtier than coal mining or some o&g production. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on September 01, 2022, 01:03:55 PM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topstories/scientist-develop-technique-of-turning-water-into-hydrogen-fuel-at-room-temperature/vi-AA11jO5P?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=9ce51cf7ed894e62a56fefaa51c3836a&category=foryou (https://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topstories/scientist-develop-technique-of-turning-water-into-hydrogen-fuel-at-room-temperature/vi-AA11jO5P?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=9ce51cf7ed894e62a56fefaa51c3836a&category=foryou)

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on September 01, 2022, 01:06:37 PM
The problem with turning water into hydrogen and oxygen is thermodynamics.  That can't be "solved".

We had a lab once where we did it at room T.

I finally listened to the piece, it's 100% BS. 

I found another article which makes more sense:

Scientists Find a Simple Way to Produce Hydrogen From Water at Room Temperature : ScienceAlert (https://www.sciencealert.com/clean-fuel-breakthrough-turns-water-into-hydrogen-at-room-temperature)

They developed a gallium-aluminum nanoparticle thing that splits the water.  You need aluminum for this to work and it is consumed in the process, or converted to Al2O3.  Then you have to reclaim the aluminumm which takes energy.  This is mildly entertaining but I don't see any plausible large scale utility.  I could generate lithium hydride and do the same thing.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on September 01, 2022, 01:55:06 PM
I'm hoping for a breakthrough

I'm not hopeful, but hoping none the less
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on September 01, 2022, 01:57:48 PM
Using aluminum and water to make clean hydrogen fuel — when and where it’s needed | MIT News | Massachusetts Institute of Technology (https://news.mit.edu/2021/using-aluminum-and-water-to-make-clean-hydrogen-fuel-0812#:~:text=Aluminum metal will readily react,directly into contact with water.)

This is a twist on old stuff, no breakthrough.  It takes energy to split water, no way around that, ever.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: NorthernOhioBuckeye on September 01, 2022, 02:04:25 PM
1). The infrastructure is coming. Slowly, but surely. On the flip side of things, I can’t refuel my ICE vehicle at home.

2). The disposal and recycling of batteries is in its infancy. I would guess that most large li-ion batteries would be recycled. Some can be repurposed.

3). Agreed on the lithium mining industry, but it’s no dirtier than coal mining or some o&g production.
1. I can. However, most people cannot so they take the car to a gas station. The difference is that it takes about 5 mins to fill my truck and leave. It would take hours to fully charge a truck similar to mine (not that I can even buy a 3/4 ton EV truck), so taking it to a charging station is not practical. 

2. Yes it is. And that is only part of the problem, with the other being the price. A new battery for you EV with run well north of $10,000. For some, that is a significant outlay for a vehicle that they already own.

3. I won't disagee with you there execpt that we have coal and oil available in this country. We have to import the materials to produce EV batteries. And a majority of those imports are from China which has demonstrated that they are not very sympathetic to American issues. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on September 01, 2022, 03:54:07 PM
The US could produce battery raw materials and is to an extent today.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: longhorn320 on September 01, 2022, 04:07:12 PM
Does anyone know what the expected life of a battery is in an EV and its replacement cost

Ive read some unbelievable stories concerning this
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on September 01, 2022, 04:12:43 PM
It varies, currently, a lot.  They are warranteed for 100 K miles.  One Tesla supposedly is running over 500 K miles with same battery.  We can't know the lifetime of the current batteries like Ultium, GM may have an idea.  The Nissan Leaf had problems in this area, no cooling system.

I figure this is an area for improvement.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on September 01, 2022, 04:29:17 PM
The US could produce battery raw materials and is to an extent today.
Yes we haven't really even begun exploiting our own resources in this area, because to date we haven't wanted to and haven't needed to.

Clearly, times change.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on September 01, 2022, 04:36:11 PM
California advances climate measures, votes to keep nuclear plant open | The Hill (https://thehill.com/policy/equilibrium-sustainability/3624281-california-advances-climate-measures-votes-to-keep-nuclear-plant-open/)

:smiley_confused1:
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on September 01, 2022, 04:56:23 PM
better start building more nuke plants ASAP
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on September 05, 2022, 06:28:54 AM
Ezra Dyer: Tesla's New Reality (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/features/columns/a40934669/ezra-dyer-teslas-new-reality/?utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_medium=social-media&fbclid=IwAR2HJVxHH5yTZGoY7B8nHQDLR-0LCc-Zj8nFD2s6rf4AwWVFuw2JgPeyjyU)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: longhorn320 on September 05, 2022, 10:48:21 AM
all these states banning the sales of new gasoline autos before the infrastructure is in place to support EVs will regret it

California even requests not recharging during peak load times

whats up with that
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on September 05, 2022, 10:56:57 AM
the new cars sales bans are well into the future

they are not today

infrastructure can be built with time & money

less time if more money

I guessing someday in the future there won't be much time and politicians will throw money at the problem and some lucky folks will profit
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on September 05, 2022, 11:02:08 AM
Yeah, it's off in a future where current politicans won't be in office.  And this is reversible of course.  California does need a lot more infrastructure if this is to happen, but even by 2035, more than half cars and LTs in the state will be ICE powered.  And used car sales could be incredible.

I'm about to depart for ATL and CDG.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on September 05, 2022, 11:05:40 AM
will there be rules against going out of state to purchase a new vehicle?

the dealerships in Vegas might see an uptick
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on September 05, 2022, 11:07:04 AM
I think probably buying new outside CA would be prohibited, but not buying slightly used.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: longhorn320 on September 05, 2022, 11:27:09 AM
I think probably buying new outside CA would be prohibited, but not buying slightly used.


That would be an interesting exercise on legality

Im not sure a state can keep you from buying a gas car in another state

It would probably go to SCOTUS
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on September 05, 2022, 11:47:55 AM
well, it would technically be a used car when driving back across the state line from Vegas

registration would be the issue, but working with registering vehicles has been fun forever
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: longhorn320 on September 05, 2022, 11:50:15 AM
well, it would technically be a used car when driving back across the state line from Vegas

registration would be the issue, but working with registering vehicles has been fun forever
California could refuse to allow registration but again that would end up in court
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on September 05, 2022, 11:57:05 AM
so the dealership sells the gasser to a guy named Brandon across the street, Brandon registers the vehicle in Nevada, then sells the "used" car with less than a mile on the odometer to the Cali resident
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on September 05, 2022, 12:34:40 PM
I hope all these kids are not on our flight 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on September 05, 2022, 05:41:03 PM
any of youse smart fellas know anything about E-Bikes???

Thinking about getting one for trips to the grocery and the golf course.

Golf course is less than 12 miles on mostly flat ground

looks like 28 mph with 40 miles of range is common.  40 miles of range is obviously plenty, 38 mph would be better

https://www.aventon.com/collections/ebikes?constraint=28-mph+step-over (https://www.aventon.com/collections/ebikes?constraint=28-mph+step-over)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Gigem on September 05, 2022, 05:48:24 PM
In California they have disallowed the use of Diesel engines that don’t meet emission requirements.  This is any vehicle, regardless of the year and if it was legal when you bought it. A whole bunch of construction businesses had to get rid of their perfectly fine trucks because of it. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on September 05, 2022, 06:08:09 PM
:::golf clap:::

good for them
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on September 07, 2022, 02:57:47 PM
How many emissions are released in the manufacturing of electric and gas vehicles?
About three-quarters of the life cycle emissions of gas-powered cars are through tailpipe emissions. Around 9% of life cycle emissions come from making the vehicles themselves.

In contrast, while all-electric vehicles produce less than half as much life cycle emissions, about 35% of total greenhouse gas emissions for all-electric vehicles are from either the battery manufacturing process or the manufacturing of the cars. This is due to the higher amounts of greenhouse gases created while mining for lithium needed for the batteries in all-electric vehicles. The remaining 65% of emissions are from electricity production.

While electric vehicles produce less than half as many life cycle emissions as gas-powered cars, the mining required to make the lithium-ion batteries used in electric vehicles produces large amounts of greenhouse gases. About 18% of total greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions created by electric vehicles are associated with the battery manufacturing process. About 17% of GHG emissions from electric cars comes from the rest of the manufacturing process. The proportions are significantly different for gas-powered cars. Only 9% of emissions come from the manufacturing process, 17% come from fuel production and distribution and 74% comes from tailpipe emissions during vehicle use.

Learn more about renewable energy with the USAFacts State of the Earth report.


https://usafacts.org/articles/how-much-emissions-do-electric-cars-produce/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Paid&utm_campaign=General&utm_content=ElectricCarEmissions_Desktop_Data&fbclid=IwAR2XFm_F2WFS2M_LxSt_4uzSNnKDHp2pE7ymN7RS2bOsAqb9b24fDtbahkk (https://usafacts.org/articles/how-much-emissions-do-electric-cars-produce/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Paid&utm_campaign=General&utm_content=ElectricCarEmissions_Desktop_Data&fbclid=IwAR2XFm_F2WFS2M_LxSt_4uzSNnKDHp2pE7ymN7RS2bOsAqb9b24fDtbahkk)

Where does the electricity used to power electric cars come from?
The main source of well-to-wheel emissions for all-electric vehicles comes from electricity production. So, depending on the state, all-electric vehicles can rely on low-emission renewable sources of electricity, or high-emission fossil fuel sources.

These figures vary greatly by state. For example, California relies more on natural gas and solar, so the average all-electric vehicle in California produces 2,261 pounds of emissions every year. In West Virginia, which relies heavily on coal for electricity production, the average all-electric vehicle produces 9,146 pounds of CO2 equivalent.

Electric car emissions are dependent on how states produce power.
Average annual emissions per all-electric vehicle by state (2016)


Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: grillrat on September 07, 2022, 05:00:40 PM
How many emissions are released in the manufacturing of electric and gas vehicles?
About three-quarters of the life cycle emissions of gas-powered cars are through tailpipe emissions. Around 9% of life cycle emissions come from making the vehicles themselves.

In contrast, while all-electric vehicles produce less than half as much life cycle emissions, about 35% of total greenhouse gas emissions for all-electric vehicles are from either the battery manufacturing process or the manufacturing of the cars. This is due to the higher amounts of greenhouse gases created while mining for lithium needed for the batteries in all-electric vehicles. The remaining 65% of emissions are from electricity production.

While electric vehicles produce less than half as many life cycle emissions as gas-powered cars, the mining required to make the lithium-ion batteries used in electric vehicles produces large amounts of greenhouse gases. About 18% of total greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions created by electric vehicles are associated with the battery manufacturing process. About 17% of GHG emissions from electric cars comes from the rest of the manufacturing process. The proportions are significantly different for gas-powered cars. Only 9% of emissions come from the manufacturing process, 17% come from fuel production and distribution and 74% comes from tailpipe emissions during vehicle use.

Learn more about renewable energy with the USAFacts State of the Earth report.


https://usafacts.org/articles/how-much-emissions-do-electric-cars-produce/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Paid&utm_campaign=General&utm_content=ElectricCarEmissions_Desktop_Data&fbclid=IwAR2XFm_F2WFS2M_LxSt_4uzSNnKDHp2pE7ymN7RS2bOsAqb9b24fDtbahkk (https://usafacts.org/articles/how-much-emissions-do-electric-cars-produce/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Paid&utm_campaign=General&utm_content=ElectricCarEmissions_Desktop_Data&fbclid=IwAR2XFm_F2WFS2M_LxSt_4uzSNnKDHp2pE7ymN7RS2bOsAqb9b24fDtbahkk)

Where does the electricity used to power electric cars come from?
The main source of well-to-wheel emissions for all-electric vehicles comes from electricity production. So, depending on the state, all-electric vehicles can rely on low-emission renewable sources of electricity, or high-emission fossil fuel sources.

These figures vary greatly by state. For example, California relies more on natural gas and solar, so the average all-electric vehicle in California produces 2,261 pounds of emissions every year. In West Virginia, which relies heavily on coal for electricity production, the average all-electric vehicle produces 9,146 pounds of CO2 equivalent.

Electric car emissions are dependent on how states produce power.
Average annual emissions per all-electric vehicle by state (2016)



Interesting article.  Had to click on the link to read the full article.  I think if I am reading that correctly, what they are saying is that, overall, a full electric car is going to produce about a third of the emissions of an ICE car, but that is an average, and it will depend essentially on what area of the country you are charging your car in.  In California, it is going to be about 1/5th because California uses much more renewable energy sources, while in West Virginia, it is only going to be about 4/5ths (80%).   Am I reading that right?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on September 07, 2022, 10:02:39 PM
I think so

that's what I got out of it
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on September 07, 2022, 10:08:08 PM
any of youse smart fellas know anything about E-Bikes???

Thinking about getting one for trips to the grocery and the golf course.

Golf course is less than 12 miles on mostly flat ground

looks like 28 mph with 40 miles of range is common.  40 miles of range is obviously plenty, 38 mph would be better

https://www.aventon.com/collections/ebikes?constraint=28-mph+step-over (https://www.aventon.com/collections/ebikes?constraint=28-mph+step-over)

I think you should get one of these:

(https://i.imgur.com/gkzwGe0.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on September 07, 2022, 10:20:31 PM
would be more fun
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on September 08, 2022, 11:26:10 AM
General Motors revealed a new electric SUV Thursday that the automaker expects will be the cheapest compact electric SUV on the market when it goes into product in about a year. The Chevrolet Equinox EV will have a starting price around $30,000 which, at any rate, will make it among the cheapest electric vehicles of any sort.

The average electric vehicle available today has a base sticker price of about $47,500, according to Edmunds.com. The $30,000 price for the Equinox EV would be, of course, for the simplest version with no optional features. That price does not include tax credits but GM is not currently eligible for any electric vehicle tax credits, anyway, and it’s uncertain if any GM vehicles will be eligible under new rules, either.

Among 2022 model year mass-market EVs, only the Nissan Leaf, with its base price $28,500, costs less and it also currently qualifies for a $7,500 federal tax credit. There are a few other models in the low- to mid-$30,000 price range, too. Among them are Chevrolet’s own Bolt EV and the SUV-ish Bolt EUV.

Despite having the same name, the Equinox EV shares very little with the gasoline-powered small SUV that is Chevrolet’s second-best-selling model after the Silverado pickup. GM took the same approach with the Chevrolet Silverado EV pickup and the Chevrolet Blazer EV SUV, both of which were unveiled earlier this year.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on September 08, 2022, 11:30:15 AM
Very few EVs in France
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on September 08, 2022, 11:36:20 AM
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a41106835/2024-jeep-recon-wagoneer-ev-revealed/

2024 Jeep Recon, Mid-Size Wagoneer S Are Brand's First U.S.-Bound EVs

(https://i.imgur.com/wMyXWo3.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on September 08, 2022, 11:42:36 AM
electric doors?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on September 08, 2022, 11:52:07 AM
Very few EVs in France
Damn. I'd have thought Utopia would 100% EV by now.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on September 08, 2022, 04:15:50 PM
Lots of Diesels
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on September 08, 2022, 04:16:26 PM
In UTOPIA?!?!?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on September 08, 2022, 09:14:52 PM
In France yes
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on September 08, 2022, 09:59:37 PM
I'm not moving there!

not even gonna visit
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on September 09, 2022, 04:05:06 AM
Some very nice things in France 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on September 09, 2022, 11:48:49 AM
mmmmmm Bordeaux :)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Temp430 on September 15, 2022, 10:11:25 AM
New battery for electric cars charges in 3 minutes and lasts 20 years.  

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-11214911/New-battery-electric-cars-charges-3-minutes-lasts-20-years.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-11214911/New-battery-electric-cars-charges-3-minutes-lasts-20-years.html)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on September 15, 2022, 10:31:39 AM
a breakthrough!!!
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on September 15, 2022, 11:28:53 AM
Now I'm hungry for a BLT.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on September 20, 2022, 12:00:01 PM
EV Batteries Could Stop Power Outages In California and the Rest of the U.S.

Wired’s article explains much about vehicle-to-grid (V2G) technology and how California hopes to leverage bidirectional charging to boost its grid. The idea behind V2G isn’t really new: just as electricity can be siphoned from the grid and stored in an EV battery, electricity can also be fed back in to help stabilize it.

https://www.wired.com/story/electric-vehicles-could-rescue-the-us-power-grid/ (https://www.wired.com/story/electric-vehicles-could-rescue-the-us-power-grid/)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: NorthernOhioBuckeye on September 20, 2022, 12:31:43 PM
What a deal. Not only will you be suffering through power outages, now they will be able to drain you car battery so that you are stuck at home. :)


Also, gotta love out they classify EV's as "zero emission" vehicles. I guess you could say that if you ignore the emissions required to build and power them. Batteries STORE electricity, they don't produce it. Whoever is producing it is most likely generating some sort of emissions. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on September 20, 2022, 11:36:32 PM
Saw a few charging stations in Paris, not many though 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on September 26, 2022, 11:46:10 AM
Electric vehicle (EV) sales set to hit an all-time high in 2022, IEA says (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/23/electric-vehicle-ev-sales-set-to-hit-an-all-time-high-in-2022-iea-says.html?utm_content=Main&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR3uSmZjbOuwARyhDZ_XO5JfJu4cWoSsSFiIGYag-QqohVbICLDIuymVED0#Echobox=1663933794)

Overall, the rest of the picture is a more challenging one. The IEA noted that 23 areas were “not on track” with a further 30 deemed as needing more effort.

“Areas not on track include improving the energy efficiency of building designs, developing clean and efficient district heating, phasing out coal-fired power generation, eliminating methane flaring, shifting aviation and shipping to cleaner fuels, and making cement, chemical and steel production cleaner,” the IEA said.
The shadow of 2015′s Paris Agreement looms large over the IEA’s report. Described by the United Nations as a “legally binding international treaty on climate change,” the accord aims to “limit global warming to well below 2, preferably to 1.5 degrees Celsius, compared to pre-industrial levels.”
Cutting human-made carbon dioxide emissions to net-zero by 2050 is seen as crucial when it comes to meeting the 1.5 degrees Celsius target.


Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on October 01, 2022, 10:47:34 PM
At this point, most EV drivers know that cold weather can negatively impact the range of their vehicles. It also causes your EV to have longer charging times. That’s because the chemical reactions that allow the battery to run are slowed down whenever there’s an extreme temperature drop.

Exactly how much range can you expect to lose during the winter months? Let’s go over when range loss happens and how you can avoid it.

What’s the optimal battery temperature for EVs?

The best EV battery temperature varies depending on the make and model of your vehicle. However, a temperature between 50° to 90° Fahrenheit is considered average. According to Geotab, most EVs can achieve peak performance when the battery is 70°F.

What cold temperatures affect EV range?

Your EV’s range will generally start to depreciate once exterior temperatures have dipped below 40°F. According to Axios, some vehicles maintain most of their estimated range despite drastic temperature drops. For example, the Hyundai Kona EV and Audi e-tron operate at 93% efficiency in temperatures between 20-30°F.

However, the Chevy Volt might lose as much as 69% of its range in cold weather. A study found by Car and Driver reported that the average EV loses at least 20% of its range in freezing temperatures. InsideHook even mentioned one study from Consumer Reports that cited a 50% loss in efficiency in below-freezing conditions.

If your EV’s heater is on full blast, you could lose 41% of your estimated driving range. According to SolarReviews, you should also be mindful of the last 20% of your EV’s battery. Without that power, your EV might have difficulty charging itself at all if the battery is already too cold.

How to mitigate range loss during the winter

In addition to always keeping the battery at 20%, you should try to park your EV in a garage during winter. While it’s not the warmest area of your home, it will at least give your vehicle some protection from exterior temperatures. Your garage is also an excellent place to recharge the EV’s battery overnight, even if you only have a 120-volt outlet.

Drive Electric Vermont also recommends using heated seats and steering wheels instead of trying to heat the whole cabin. These features can warm your body just as quickly in cold weather and don’t put as much strain on your EV’s power supply.

If you need some extra warmth, keep a few extra blankets in your vehicle. In winter, it’s always a good idea to keep additional layers of clothing in your car for emergencies anyway.

Alternatively, you can preheat your vehicle while it’s still plugged in before you leave your home. Once you’re behind the wheel, switch your EV into ECO mode to extend your battery life. Your EV might not be as fast in this drive mode, but it’s always better to drive cautiously in winter. In fact, you can improve your EV’s mileage by up to 20% if you drive 10 mph slower.

Like with any ICE car, you can maximize your vehicle’s mileage by keeping the tires at the right pressure. This is even more important in freezing temperatures when the air is denser. Always refer to your owner’s manual or the inside of your EV’s doorjamb for each tire’s recommended pressure.

If possible, we also recommend buying an EV with at least 300 miles of range. The Ford Mustang Mach-E Premium is probably the most affordable option, currently starting at $48,775. A Long Range version of the Tesla Model 3 (historically the automaker’s cheapest car) is also planned for release as a 2023 model.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on October 06, 2022, 12:11:45 PM
Ford has decided to increase the prices of the F-150 Lightning, the electric version of its best-selling F-150 pickup.

The base price of the F-150 Lightning will increase by $5,000 for 2023 model year vehicles. Consumers should therefore pay from roughly $52,000 to $97,000 depending on the version. For 2022 model year vehicles, base prices ranged from $40,000 to $92,000. These prices obviously exclude taxes, delivery and other charges.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/news/ford-delivers-very-bad-news-to-ev-buyers/ar-AA12FDXG?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=6f4e02596150494394c45332311c87a5 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/news/ford-delivers-very-bad-news-to-ev-buyers/ar-AA12FDXG?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=6f4e02596150494394c45332311c87a5)

The base price of the F-150 Lightning Pro, the model intended for professional customers - businesses, government - will increase by almost 11% to $51,974. The increase is even more spectacular if we refer to the very first vehicles in May 2021. These cost $39,974.

Price increases do not affect customers who have already placed their order.

This is the second time in just over a month that Ford has raised prices for the F-150 Lightning. On August 9, the manufacturer had increased the prices of the truck/pickup between $6,000 and $8,500 depending on the model.

The base price of the F-150 Lightning model year 2023 thus climbed between $47,000 and $97,000, compared to approximately $40,000 to $92,000 for model year 2022 vehicles. These prices obviously exclude taxes, delivery and other charges.

As in August, Ford attributed further price hike to costs related to continued disruptions affecting supply chain

The supply chain disruptions have been exacerbated by the covid-19 pandemic and the microchip shortage. These two problems together have forced automakers to temporarily suspend production of some, often very popular, models. They also reduced the inventory of new vehicles.


The cost of battery development has more than doubled since the coronavirus pandemic, research firm AlixPartners has calculated. This increase in costs is due to the disruptions caused to supply chains by the pandemic and the soaring prices of raw materials following the invasion of Ukraine by Russia.

The costs of the raw materials (cobalt, nickel, lithium) necessary in the development of an electric vehicle have on average increased by almost 144% in two years to $8,255 as of last May, according to a report published in June by AlixPartners. As of March 2020, these costs amounted to $3,381. The cost of developing the electric vehicle has increased by about $2,000 over the past two years, the research firm added.


Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: NorthernOhioBuckeye on October 06, 2022, 01:29:00 PM
The base price of the F-150 Lightning will increase by $5,000 for 2023 model year vehicles. Consumers should therefore pay from roughly $52,000 to $97,000 depending on the version. For 2022 model year vehicles, base prices ranged from $40,000 to $92,000. These prices obviously exclude taxes, delivery and other charges.
Hmm. Didn't Congress just pass the so called Inflation Reduction act that gave a $7,500 tax incentive to buy EV's and then Ford raises their price? What a coincidence. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on October 06, 2022, 01:37:13 PM
Biden administration weighs whether to shrink offshore drilling lease sales | The Hill (https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/3676276-biden-administration-weighs-whether-to-shrink-offshore-drilling-lease-sales/)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on October 06, 2022, 02:10:27 PM
poor message for oil prices

weigh it all you'd like

why blabber about it to the press?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on October 06, 2022, 02:16:02 PM
The Democrats are in a bind, they are against fossil fuels, OK fine, but they are against OPEC+ reducing production of fossil fuels.  That should be good news for them, it makes EVs more attractive.  Yay!

But some of them understand we have an election in a month.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on October 06, 2022, 02:19:36 PM
How Much Does It Cost To Replace the Battery in a Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle (PHEV)?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/how-much-does-it-cost-to-replace-the-battery-in-a-plug-in-hybrid-electric-vehicle-phev/ar-AA12EXS7?ocid=winp1taskbar&cvid=5f94b41cc46346fb80ae19dfafcf8f4f (https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/how-much-does-it-cost-to-replace-the-battery-in-a-plug-in-hybrid-electric-vehicle-phev/ar-AA12EXS7?ocid=winp1taskbar&cvid=5f94b41cc46346fb80ae19dfafcf8f4f)

The average replacement battery for any electric vehicle costs $137/kWh. That said, the price of a very small battery could be more per kWh. This price estimate does not include the labor required to actually swap out your old battery.

For some fully electric vehicles, the labor to swap out a battery costs less than $1,000. But service costs alone for replacing a Tesla’s battery can add up to $2,500.

The batteries in plug-in hybrid vehicles will wear out over time. But this process usually takes years, so swapping out your battery will not be a regular maintenance event. The industry standard battery warranty is currently eight years or 100,000 miles.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Honestbuckeye on October 06, 2022, 06:13:22 PM
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/electric-vehicles-exploding-water-damage-hurricane-ian-top-florida-official-warns
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: longhorn320 on October 06, 2022, 06:17:25 PM
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/electric-vehicles-exploding-water-damage-hurricane-ian-top-florida-official-warns
You stole my thunder

was just getting ready to post this

another bug that has to be solved lol
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on October 06, 2022, 07:14:13 PM
hurricanes can cause serious damage

I imagine some gassers are severely damaged as well
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: longhorn320 on October 06, 2022, 07:46:25 PM
hurricanes can cause serious damage

I imagine some gassers are severely damaged as well
yep but they dont explode
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on October 06, 2022, 08:06:40 PM
they do if the gas tank gets too hot
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: longhorn320 on October 06, 2022, 08:27:24 PM
they do if the gas tank gets too hot
which only happens when the whole car is on fire

silly rabbit
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on October 07, 2022, 11:32:30 AM
What It Was Like Living With Hydrogen for a Year: Toyota Mirai FCEV Yearlong Review Verdict (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2021-toyota-mirai-fcev-yearlong-test-review-verdict/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AMT%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR16N5ku_IahI-PzUtwuud4BSXj5pchaTQPr_-Y82ZOTmHP0ogBDn5kCMnQ)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: NorthernOhioBuckeye on October 07, 2022, 12:30:05 PM
hurricanes can cause serious damage

I imagine some gassers are severely damaged as well
A submerged car, whether an EV or gasser, is pretty much toast either way. However, a submerged gasser in your garage won't burn your house down. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on October 07, 2022, 12:35:48 PM
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/electric-vehicles-exploding-water-damage-hurricane-ian-top-florida-official-warns
How often did this occur?  They provided one example and seemed to imply it was widely spread.  Fires in EVs have been a problem even without submergence.  Was the car on fire submerged or did it just burn "normally"?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on October 07, 2022, 12:37:25 PM
from what I saw on the national news, electric cars were burning, not exploding

but, if someone has footage of an exploding car, then that's the deal
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on October 07, 2022, 12:39:46 PM
from what I saw on the national news, electric cars were burning, not exploding

but, if someone has footage of an exploding car, then that's the deal
Here's a picture of an exploding car.

It's not electric and no idea if it's in Florida.


(https://i.imgur.com/HD4k469.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on October 07, 2022, 12:46:06 PM
IMHO that's a terrible article.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on October 07, 2022, 12:56:22 PM
Hyundai Ioniq 6 vs. Tesla Model 3: An EV Sedan Showdown Preview (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2023-hyundai-ioniq-6-vs-tesla-model-3-ev-sedan-compare/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AMT%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR2jwYQttGFDGdufwSyTwDhdfrQwicvPPAjGM99bHbd8W6HhWoqjyd8b0Oo)

EVs seem to be improving pretty quickly (which is not a shock, heh).  I wonder if we're nearing the top of he current S curve.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on October 07, 2022, 04:27:53 PM
Here's a picture of an exploding car.

It's not electric and no idea if it's in Florida.


(https://i.imgur.com/HD4k469.png)
looks like a gasser

I'm guessing gasoline explodes bigger and better and more often than lithium
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on October 08, 2022, 06:57:17 AM
Battery fires are not explosions, but they are tough to extinguish with water.

This notion they burn after being submerged is not documented that I can see, maybe some do, some burn anyway.  If you don't want an EV because they might get submerged, well, OJK I guess, they have other issues that would concern me more.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on October 08, 2022, 08:07:43 AM
Battery fires are not explosions, but they are tough to extinguish with water.

that's not a clickbait headline!
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on October 08, 2022, 08:39:44 AM
LONDON (AP) — The death toll in an explosion at a gas station in a small village in northwest Ireland has risen to nine, police said Saturday, as emergency workers combed piles of rubble for more victims.

The explosion leveled the gas station building, which holds the main shop and post office for the village, and damaged an adjacent residential building.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MrNubbz on October 08, 2022, 08:43:05 AM
RIP those lost hope it was nothing nefarius
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 03, 2022, 12:30:51 PM
the Lucid Air electric sports sedan has already generated a great deal of positive buzz, including earning the illustrious 2022 MotorTrend Car of the Year Award. While Tesla still dominates the EV segment, the Lucid Air has a crucial advantage. It’s better than all Tesla models in one key area: driving range.

Lucid Air has a higher driving range than all Tesla models

EVs have many positive attributes, but a significant concern for many of them is their low driving range compared to gas-powered vehicles. This leads to range anxiety — or the fear of running out of battery power before making it back home or reaching a charging station.

However, with the Lucid Air electric sports sedan, this range anxiety is alleviated. It has an estimated driving range of up to 520 miles. This is a higher driving range than all Tesla models — and the highest range for a production electric car:

Maximum driving range estimates:

Lucid Air: 520 miles
Tesla Model S: 405 miles
Tesla Model 3: 358 miles
Tesla Model Y: 330 miles
As you can see, no Tesla model comes close to matching the 520 miles of driving range for the Lucid Air. The Tesla model with the highest driving range is the Model S sports sedan, with an estimated range of up to 405 miles.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/research/lucid-air-has-1-huge-advantage-over-all-tesla-models/ar-AA13GTrt?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=f59d200bf09a44519d3977d24e6880b5 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/research/lucid-air-has-1-huge-advantage-over-all-tesla-models/ar-AA13GTrt?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=f59d200bf09a44519d3977d24e6880b5)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 03, 2022, 12:37:17 PM
IMHO that's a terrible article.
EV fires are happening here with regularity now. It's on the local news every night.

It's the ones that sat in salt water when the surge happened.


Ian exposed potential fire risk posed by electric vehicles (winknews.com)

 (https://www.winknews.com/2022/11/02/ian-exposed-potential-fire-risk-posed-by-electric-vehicles/)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 03, 2022, 03:43:44 PM
That is a much better article.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 10, 2022, 06:06:58 PM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/autos-hybrids/does-bmw-actually-hold-the-secrets-to-the-next-step-in-ev-battery-tech/ar-AA13Qj4K?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=3e20656dddc843d1869702bad4651b70 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/autos-hybrids/does-bmw-actually-hold-the-secrets-to-the-next-step-in-ev-battery-tech/ar-AA13Qj4K?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=3e20656dddc843d1869702bad4651b70)

Future BMW EVs with these new Gen6 battery packs could entice many consumers. These models could offer the benefits of:

Longer driving range
Shorter charging times
Lighter overall weight
Lower price
All four of these qualities are certainly enticing for any vehicle, especially EVs.

Learn more about the new BMW EV battery tech in the video below:


https://youtu.be/nyjU0ePc7IQ
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 17, 2022, 08:16:44 PM
General Motors says it expects its portfolio of electric vehicles to turn a profit in North America by 2025 as it boosts battery and assembly plant capacity to build over 1 million EVs per year.

CEO Mary Barra used the pledge to kick off the company’s investor day event Thursday in New York.

The profit figure includes vehicle sales revenue, benefits from emissions tax credits, and revenue from software and parts sales, she said.

Barra said the company’s EV portfolio appeals to a broader range of customers than the competition, in a lineup that includes a small SUV for around $30,000, plus a luxury SUV, pickup trucks, and Hummer SUVs in the next two years.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Gigem on November 17, 2022, 08:40:37 PM
Father in law had his battery replaced in his Bolt today as part of the recall. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 18, 2022, 08:49:07 AM
money loser for GM
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 18, 2022, 11:36:09 AM
It’s not so simple to make faster electric vehicle chargers, because the increased electricity means excess heat, too.
A NASA experiment meant to cool electronics aboard spacecraft could also find its way into EV chargers.
Theoretically, a charging station with this technology could juice up an EV battery in just five minutes.


Today, NASA cools onboard electronics with a single-phase system, a sub-cooled element that stays in a single liquid “phase.” However, the FBCE—designed by Issam Mudawar, a professor of mechanical engineering, and his lab at Purdue University—is a two-phase system. As its name suggests, the system uses two phases, both liquid and vapor, to more efficiently transfer heat.

The experiment’s Flow Boiling Module contains heat-generating devices along a flow channel filled with coolant. As things heat up, water boils near the channel’s wall, forms bubbles, and then “depart the walls at high frequency,” according to NASA. This heated vapor is then replaced by coolant pulled from the interior of the flow channel. The vapor eventually condenses and returns to its liquid form.

After being delivered to the ISS in 2021, the FBCE team conducted tests to see if this cooling technique worked in microgravity, a feature that’s unnecessary for EVs (unless NASA wants to recharge Elon Musk’s space Tesla). While the data gathered from FBCE will improve spacecraft cooling systems on long-duration missions (where more power and improved thermal management are needed), the impact of the underlying technology could be felt much closer to home.

Many modern EV fast-charging stations are rated at 350 amperes due to temperature restrictions. NASA estimates that Purdue’s cooling system could increase that to a whopping 2,400 amperes. To put that into perspective, a charging station supplying a steady flow of electricity at 1,400 amperes alone could fully charge an EV in just five minutes.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 23, 2022, 08:03:01 AM
I drove all three electric pickup trucks on sale in the US.
The Rivian R1T, Ford F-150 Lightning, and GMC Hummer EV are three very different takes on the electric truck.
They all offer more than 300 miles of range and lots of interesting features.


To some, they might all seem about the same. They all have a bed and some electric motors, and none come particularly cheap.

But the Ford F-150 Lightning, GMC Hummer EV, and Rivian R1T couldn't be more different. I drove all three and learned all about their highs, lows, and special features.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/i-ve-driven-all-3-electric-pickup-trucks-on-the-market-here-s-why-i-d-buy-the-rivian-r1t-over-the-f-150-lightning-or-hummer-ev/ar-AA14sg4f?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=e966f63b8e1548f5937c43b3bf48092c (https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/i-ve-driven-all-3-electric-pickup-trucks-on-the-market-here-s-why-i-d-buy-the-rivian-r1t-over-the-f-150-lightning-or-hummer-ev/ar-AA14sg4f?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=e966f63b8e1548f5937c43b3bf48092c)

For me — a weekend adventurer who appreciates modern style and a smaller form factor — the Rivian's friendlier proportions and outdoors-focused features take the cake.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on December 01, 2022, 11:42:11 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/60ubYki.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on December 01, 2022, 11:43:59 AM
In these are the true awards of manly sport
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on December 01, 2022, 09:11:05 PM
(https://scontent.ffod1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/316831571_684028829757962_4775215472550294370_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=2c4854&_nc_ohc=EysMey-aWlUAX9_KdxT&_nc_ht=scontent.ffod1-1.fna&oh=00_AfDfjCRIfuK-dq79xsjSBgIu9SoOtYg4E5k0_NPD_Ayaxw&oe=638E02BB)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on December 02, 2022, 05:38:16 PM
The Lightyear 0, a solar-powered EV that can go months between battery charges, has finally entered production.

The Dutch startup recently announced that it had begun building its boundary-pushing debut vehicle, according to Jalopnik. The 0 isn’t the only solar electric car that’s been in the works, but it is the first to go into production.


As automakers rush to release EVs, it can be hard to design one that stands out. That shouldn’t be a problem for the 0, though. The sedan may look like any other premium EV at a glance, but the top of the car, from its hood to its tail lid, is lined with solar panels that help keep its 60-kWh battery pack charged.


The solar cells will have a big impact on how much time you spend charging the vehicle. Lightyear claims the panels can provide up to 44 miles a day. That may not sound like that much, but the brand says that in the Netherlands, drivers who cover roughly that distance per day could easily go two months between charges in the summer. And if you live somewhere even sunnier, like Portugal, the time between charges could be as long as seven months, according to Jalopnik. Range shouldn’t be that much of an issue during the darker months of the year, either. The 0 can travel 388 miles between charges, based on Europe’s WLTP testing cycle.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/the-world-s-first-solar-electric-car-just-went-into-production/ar-AA14PTQk?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=1e8065202bae41a480ca25a64820f5ce (https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/the-world-s-first-solar-electric-car-just-went-into-production/ar-AA14PTQk?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=1e8065202bae41a480ca25a64820f5ce)

Unsurprisingly, an EV as unique as the 0 doesn’t come cheap. Lightyear’s sedan starts at €250,000 (about $262,000). If a quarter-million seems a bit steep to you, you’re in luck. The brand plans to introduce a more accessible solar electric car called the 2 by the middle of the decade.

(https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA14Q029.img?w=534&h=300&m=6)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Gigem on December 02, 2022, 08:20:51 PM
Worth mentioning in the solar thread…

Here is some of my recent handiwork…

3 panel solar powered submersible pump
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Gigem on December 02, 2022, 08:24:29 PM
2 panel system. This one is my top seller.  Makes about 5,000 gallons per day to water cattle. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on December 02, 2022, 08:35:02 PM
Longhorn cattle?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Gigem on December 06, 2022, 10:55:06 AM
None around these parts.  Not sure if they are more prevalent anywhere else in the state, but I think the LH cow is mostly myth than reality.  They look cool, but I think they are harder to ranch than other cattle.  But I can't speak for all of Tx, just in my little neck of the woods.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on December 06, 2022, 02:06:44 PM
there are a few scattered around South Dakota and Nebraska
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on December 13, 2022, 02:33:40 PM
Aren’t coal-powered EVs more harmful than gas-powered vehicles?

Strangely, the answer is no. Even if all the electricity produced for electric cars came from coal-burning processes, electric vehicles are less wasteful than ICE vehicles.

MotorTrend provides an in-depth study to show that only 16 to 25 percent of the energy from burning gasoline goes to the wheels. This is a massive loss due to the inefficiencies of burning gasoline.

On the other hand, electric cars send between 87 and 91 percent of the energy from the battery to the wheels. Some of that energy is recaptured through regenerative braking. This recapturing of energy reduces the amount of loss for EVs.

If we replaced all gasoline burning with coal burning, the energy usage reduction would reach 31 percent. Currently, Americans use nearly 9 million barrels of oil every day but switching to EVs charged only with electricity produced through coal-burning processes only requires the equivalent of 6 million barrels of oil. This is a huge difference.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/are-we-being-lied-to-about-electric-cars/ar-AA15dEtX?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=625305b42da24baabc904afdee2d6f0a (https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/are-we-being-lied-to-about-electric-cars/ar-AA15dEtX?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=625305b42da24baabc904afdee2d6f0a)

The greatest change we need is in the power grid. Instead of blaming EVs for changing the name of the game, the power grid should be upgraded to be more environmentally friendly. Currently, the makeup of the grid is:

38 percent natural gas
22 percent coal
20 percent renewables
19 percent nuclear
1 percent other
Using these numbers, we see that 39 percent (adding renewables and nuclear together) of the grid is entirely emissions-free. We also see that only 22 percent of the entire grid is coal, which doesn’t support the argument to blame electric cars for coal burning in the grid.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on December 13, 2022, 02:37:22 PM
Did I just miss it?

Because I didn't see them address the inefficiencies of electrical generation in the coal-burning power plant, nor the inefficiencies in electrical transmission due to line losses, which are both required just to get the electricity to the EV battery in the first place.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on December 13, 2022, 02:50:02 PM
they didn't address the trains and ships that haul coal, the supertankers that haul oil or the mining and shipping of lithium either
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 13, 2022, 03:39:14 PM
Did I just miss it?

Because I didn't see them address the inefficiencies of electrical generation in the coal-burning power plant, nor the inefficiencies in electrical transmission due to line losses, which are both required just to get the electricity to the EV battery in the first place.
It's really about how much CO2 is generated per mile.  Transmission losses were taken into account and are surprisingly small (to me anyway).  If you burn coal to generate electricity, I think the thermal efficiency is near 40%, but that comes out when you compute how much CO2 is generated per kWhr.

I once did a back of the envelop calculation on this and got about the same answer, a question was asked whether EVs really generate less CO2.  There also is a factor of how much CO2 is generated in making an EV in the first place.  It's pretty large, but comes out after a year or so of driving.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on December 13, 2022, 03:57:11 PM
they didn't address the trains and ships that haul coal, the supertankers that haul oil or the mining and shipping of lithium either
Sure, and they should.  For a truly holistic analysis, you'd have to take all of that into account.

But an IC engine burns gasoline to generate electricity.  That's the inefficiency they're addressing.

Then they just completely ignore the fact that the EV battery can't just charge itself, and that the coal-burning plant has its own inefficiencies.  They're not even close to comparing apples-to-apples here.  

The closest you can get to direct apples-to-apples attempting the simplicity of their analysis, is to compare efficiency of the gas ICE, to the efficiency of coal-burning electrical power generation, PLUS electrical line losses, PLUS losses from the battery to the wheels of the EV.

I've seen the analyses in detail before and the EV still tends to come out ahead, but it's not the same picture as the one they're painting.

It's really about how much CO2 is generated per mile.  Transmission losses were taken into account and are surprisingly small (to me anyway).  If you burn coal to generate electricity, I think the thermal efficiency is near 40%, but that comes out when you compute how much CO2 is generated per kWhr.

I once did a back of the envelop calculation on this and got about the same answer, a question was asked whether EVs really generate less CO2.  There also is a factor of how much CO2 is generated in making an EV in the first place.  It's pretty large, but comes out after a year or so of driving.

Line losses are 4-6%.  I'm not sure I'd call that "small" when added to the thermal inefficiency of the coal burning plant, and then the losses from the EV battery to the wheels of the EV.  There's really not as much difference as the EV industry attempts to portray.

But still, there is a difference.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 13, 2022, 04:14:54 PM
It's really just about CO2 per mile.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on December 13, 2022, 04:18:07 PM
It's really just about CO2 per mile. 
That's not what the article FF posted is addressing.

It is addressing energy usage, not environmental impact.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 13, 2022, 04:32:16 PM
Are electric cars worse for the environment than gasoline-powered cars?

That is the question asked at the beginning of the article.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 13, 2022, 04:34:31 PM
YSE Study Finds Electric Vehicles Provide Lower Carbon Emissions Through Additional Channels | Yale School of the Environment (https://environment.yale.edu/news/article/yse-study-finds-electric-vehicles-provide-lower-carbon-emissions-through-additional)

This describes the Yale study in more detail.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 13, 2022, 04:37:17 PM
Pricing indirect emissions accelerates low—carbon transition of US light vehicle sector | Nature Communications (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-27247-y)

And this is the study.

Large–scale electric vehicle adoption can greatly reduce emissions from vehicle tailpipes. However, analysts have cautioned that it can come with increased indirect emissions from electricity and battery production that are not commonly regulated by transport policies. We combine integrated energy modeling and life cycle assessment to compare optimal policy scenarios that price emissions at the tailpipe only, versus both tailpipe and indirect emissions. Surprisingly, scenarios that also price indirect emissions exhibit higher, rather than reduced, sales of electric vehicles, while yielding lower cumulative tailpipe and indirect emissions. Expected technological change ensures that emissions from electricity and battery production are more than offset by reduced emissions of gasoline production. Given continued decarbonization of electricity supply, results show that a large–scale adoption of electric vehicles is able to reduce CO2 emissions through more channels than previously expected. Further, carbon pricing of stationary sources will also favor electric vehicles.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on December 13, 2022, 04:51:46 PM
Are electric cars worse for the environment than gasoline-powered cars?

That is the question asked at the beginning of the article. 

They only addressed the energy efficiency/usage question and did not address emissions at all.  Not one mention of CO2 per mile.

But you already know that, because you read the same thing I did.  Right?

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Gigem on December 15, 2022, 05:39:01 PM
They dumb those articles way down because the average person can't understand WTF they are getting at anyways.  It's basically a sound-bite article.  

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 16, 2022, 07:55:31 AM
There is pretty common criticism of EVs that they are worse for the environment than ICE cars, meaning they generate more CO2 over their lifetimes (or per mile).  This is meant to rebut that.  Whether it does or not is a separate issue.  We all know these "studies" can be contrived by rebalancing a few coefficients.  My GUESS is the study is decent from what I can tell, and having done a BOE study myself using made up figures.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 16, 2022, 08:29:09 AM
Toyota’s First-Ever All-Electric Pickup Truck Is... Not Quite What You'd Expect (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/toyota-hilux-revo-bev-concept-first-look/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AAMAG%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR3eMWbr5vsSSEIYaC7d_XVYbv61NAtTKZoGlJ2Izc3SPUSCXcXTIBvHX9U)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on December 16, 2022, 09:44:16 AM
not for me


but, I hope they sell a billion of them in china
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on December 16, 2022, 10:40:40 AM
At least it looks like a pickup truck.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 16, 2022, 10:57:57 AM
If you happen across a 1970 F150 parked next to a new one, it's pretty amazing.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on December 16, 2022, 11:04:11 AM
yup, little wonder they've gone up in price

odd that pickup trucks have grown to a much larger size
even the small trucks are larger than the 150s and 1500s of the past

and yet sedans have shrunk
can't even buy a LARGE sedan these daze
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 16, 2022, 11:12:29 AM
I think a small work truck like that Toyota could sell in the US to handymen, even with range of say 150 miles.  And I agree the "small trucks" today are rather large.  My neighbor had an old S-10 that was pretty useful to me at times.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on December 16, 2022, 11:16:27 AM
Extended cabs and crew cab were quite rare 3 decades ago.  For us, the F150 crew cab is our family vehicle, so it must have a very large cab, and the kinds of comforts you'd find in a sedan.

Of course if anybody still made a 3/4 ton SUV with commiserate towing capability, THAT is what I'd have.  I find SUVs to be superior tow vehicles to pickup trucks in almost every scenario.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on December 16, 2022, 05:48:08 PM
Consumer Reports recently extrapolated from its vast archive of owner surveys the reliability data pertaining to electric cars. It found that as a whole, EVs were less reliable than traditional gasoline and hybrid cars. The Kia EV6 ran away with top honors among battery electrics with a total score of 84. However, CR was not ready to recommend it because it was so new on the market and reliability issues can take time to surface. Also, we would be remiss not to point out that the EV6's platform twin, the Hyundai Ioniq 5, ranked fourth among EVs at 41 points, less than half the score of the Kia.

Between the siblings are the Tesla Model 3 with 58 points, and the Nissan Leaf with 53. These numbers land mid-pack among reliability ratings. Internal-combustion cars like the Toyota Corolla Hybrid, Lexus GX, Mazda Miata and Lincoln Corsair have scores in the 80s and 90s.

We've long heard the argument that EVs should, hypothetically, be more reliable than gasoline cars as they have fewer moving parts. Think of all the valves and gears in a typical ICE drivetrain. However, CR says, "EVs reported problems associated with battery packs, charging, electric drive motors, and unique heating and cooling systems that are required on vehicles that lack a conventional engine." It would be  be interesting to know the percentage of issues associated with hardware failures versus the percentage of issues stemming from software bugs, but CR doesn't break out those numbers.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/evs-more-issue-prone-than-gasoline-and-hybrid-cars-consumer-reports-says/ar-AA15kwqH?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=e7161253bf8d4aa39c8e7bffc614ea7d (https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/evs-more-issue-prone-than-gasoline-and-hybrid-cars-consumer-reports-says/ar-AA15kwqH?ocid=entnewsntp&cvid=e7161253bf8d4aa39c8e7bffc614ea7d)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on December 16, 2022, 05:48:36 PM
I'll wait another decade or two
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 17, 2022, 09:10:53 AM
Despite forecasts that EVs will represent most (or all in some places) new car sales by 2035, even if that happens, it would be around 2050 before half the cars on the road are EVs.

And I think some car makers will still offer ICE vehicles of certain types.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on December 17, 2022, 09:54:44 AM
Despite forecasts that EVs will represent most (or all in some places) new car sales by 2035, even if that happens, it would be around 2050 before half the cars on the road are EVs.

And I think some car makers will still offer ICE vehicles of certain types. 

We'd have to make dramatic improvements in battery storage technology in order NOT to still be forced to offer some ICE options. The kinds of leaps in technology that have never been made in that sector, to date. The laws of physics are a challenging taskmaster.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 17, 2022, 10:02:58 AM
Major issues, today, some of which won't be readily solvable:

1.  Range, but getting better.
2.  Cost
3.  Recharging time, also getting better
4.  Towing range, not sure how this gets better
5.  Cold weather performance, same
6.  Weight
7.  Battery replacement costs
8.  Battery supply issues (raw materials etc.)


Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 17, 2022, 11:37:15 AM
GE’s Avio To Test Hydrogen Hybrid-Electric Engine | Aviation Week Network (https://aviationweek.com/aerospace/advanced-air-mobility/ges-avio-test-hydrogen-hybrid-electric-engine?fbclid=IwAR3JYWl8Gov738F4QnEuzgJ5DfT9MN6YmaG6Bofr4DSNBSW4zpQUANxS_c0)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on January 02, 2023, 08:34:06 PM
Tesla Inc. delivered fewer vehicles than analysts expected last quarter, missing estimates despite taking the unusual step of offering hefty incentives in its two biggest markets.

The company handed over 405,278 vehicles to customers in the last three months, short of the 420,760 average estimate compiled by Bloomberg. While the total was a quarterly record for Tesla, the company opened two new assembly plants last year and still came up short of its goal to expand deliveries by 50%.

After Chief Executive Officer Elon Musk predicted an “epic” end to the year, Tesla proceeded to cut vehicle prices and production in China, then offered $7,500 discounts in the US. Concerns about rising interest rates, inflation and other economic headwinds — plus alarm over Musk’s antics on Twitter, which he now owns — sent Tesla shares plunging 37% in December and 65% last year.

“We believe that Tesla is facing a significant demand problem,” Toni Sacconaghi, a Bernstein analyst with the equivalent of a sell rating on the stock, wrote in a report Monday. “We believe Tesla will need to either reduce its growth targets (and run its factories below capacity) or sustain and potentially increase recent price cuts globally, pressuring margins.”

Tesla increased deliveries by 40% to 1.31 million last year, shy of the 50% average annual growth rate the company has said it expects to achieve over multiple years. Production expanded 47% to 1.37 million.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on January 03, 2023, 01:08:10 PM
Major issues, today, some of which won't be readily solvable:

1.  Range, but getting better.
2.  Cost
3.  Recharging time, also getting better
4.  Towing range, not sure how this gets better
5.  Cold weather performance, same
6.  Weight
7.  Battery replacement costs
8.  Battery supply issues (raw materials etc.)



On #3:
I suggested swapping out batteries as being a possible alternative to charging them.  


I randomly just saw a video of Neil Degrasse-Tyson suggesting the same thing on Joe Rogan's podcast.  No, he's not the authority on such things, but it's neat that he agrees with me.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on January 03, 2023, 01:17:52 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/ycAYA8m.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/ZjIvdvx.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on January 03, 2023, 01:34:06 PM
Think of an oil change setup, with shops stocking the most common batteries.  Machines swapping them out, so weight isn't an issue.

It's feasible, unless you let your distaste for the messenger of the idea cloud your judgement.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on January 03, 2023, 01:51:20 PM
I'm an electrical engineer.  I'm familiar with the concept, and the challenges.  I don't care at all where the idea is coming from, I have no "distaste" to cloud my judgment here.

How many stops does an average urban gas station get in a day?  200?  Imagine storing, installing, and re-stocking, 200 of those battery banks every day.  This is not a simple problem.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on January 03, 2023, 01:52:01 PM
let the robots do it
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on January 03, 2023, 01:52:47 PM
let the robots do it
Sure. Who's going to pay for that massive change to infrastructure?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on January 03, 2023, 01:53:56 PM
the green energy dems will steal the money from electrical engineers like you!
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on January 03, 2023, 01:56:44 PM
I'm an electrical engineer.  I'm familiar with the concept, and the challenges.  I don't care at all where the idea is coming from, I have no "distaste" to cloud my judgment here.

How many stops does an average urban gas station get in a day?  200?  Imagine storing, installing, and re-stocking, 200 of those battery banks every day.  This is not a simple problem.
I'm thinking the biggest hurdle would be a shop's power supply.  I'm picturing racks of batteries filling opposing walls, all charging, as they've been swapped out from earlier customers' cars.  If they can make a jukebox pick the correct record and maneuver it to play, they can do the same with heavy-ass car batteries.

But yeah, that power supply is going to be substantial.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on January 03, 2023, 01:58:08 PM
Sure. Who's going to pay for that massive change to infrastructure?
The billion-dollar corporations that run everything and do whatever they have to do in order to produce perpetual, quarterly growth.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on January 03, 2023, 02:00:29 PM
let the robots do it
Why do I get the suspicion that you're picturing me picturing Optimus Prime in a reconfigured Jiffy-Lube switching out the battery beneath an '88 Chevy Nova?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on January 03, 2023, 02:15:41 PM
now, that's just a very disturbing picture

would have never popped into my head w/o you

had to google "Optimus Prime"
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on January 03, 2023, 02:16:14 PM
the 88 chevy nova probably the most disturbing
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on January 03, 2023, 02:17:09 PM
But yeah, that power supply is going to be substantial.
so, the entire parking lot and surrounding area is covered with solar panels
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on January 03, 2023, 09:18:46 PM
Well probably, yes.  The parking lot would BE solar panels.  Or the lane where people wait in line could be charging their batteries.....some may just drive on through without a swap and/or that would help keep the swapped-out batteries from needing so much time to charge back up.
.
The cool part about all of this is that it would actually work with ideas no one's even thought up yet.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on January 03, 2023, 09:31:27 PM
not needed for daily commutes

only needed for long haul travel - over the 300 miles or so common range

so, interstate highways and turnpikes

Buc-ee's truckstops
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on January 04, 2023, 07:57:23 AM
My step son was here and went to Cincy for New Years to see friends.  He rented a Tesla Type X.  He really liked it, he recharged 3 times going up.  He set the speed at 85 which is the max for the autodrive function which he really liked.

I rode in it a couple times around town, my wife said she liked it.  Range is less for freeway driving versus around town.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on January 04, 2023, 08:31:15 AM
85 max?

is there an override that can be used to get to triple digits?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on January 04, 2023, 08:32:41 AM
You can drive manually over 85, he said.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on January 04, 2023, 08:48:52 AM
whew!  what if you were late for a tee time?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on January 04, 2023, 09:13:47 AM
Here’s why electric vehicles need EV-specific tires | Ars Technica (https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/12/heres-why-electric-vehicles-need-ev-specific-tires/?utm_social-type=owned&utm_brand=ars&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR0to67Yb5G0-VzWin5CSMBczTOVa4ARX0cteT1-utGrevOpNyvExBDZYvA)

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on January 04, 2023, 09:24:15 AM
I'll wait a few years when they have the tires figured out
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Gigem on January 04, 2023, 09:33:24 AM
Swapping the battery pack is not as simple as it sounds because they have a thermal cooling and heating system built into the pack as well as the weight and size of the pack itself does not lend itself to swapping.  I'm sure it could be done, but like others have said for the average person 300 miles of range is plenty and then with the super charges a lot of folks can charge way up in 30-45 minutes.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on January 04, 2023, 09:37:24 AM
45 minutes at Buckee's is an eternity

45 minutes at Slovacek's is heaven

(https://fastly.4sqi.net/img/general/200x200/25567420_ssGtubUoilkScuXzSPnK02uSSDUo7UxbWUlbjzXQNzY.jpg)

(https://www.slovacek.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/kolaches.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on January 04, 2023, 09:39:15 AM
The recent battery packs are an important part of frame stiffness as well.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on January 04, 2023, 10:01:28 AM
45 minutes at Buckee's is an eternity

45 minutes at Slovacek's is heaven

(https://fastly.4sqi.net/img/general/200x200/25567420_ssGtubUoilkScuXzSPnK02uSSDUo7UxbWUlbjzXQNzY.jpg)

(https://www.slovacek.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/kolaches.jpg)

Man you really are a closet-Texan.  :)


Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on January 04, 2023, 10:15:19 AM
yup, I prefer the sausage/cheese/jalapeño in West

either side of 35 is fine with me
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on January 04, 2023, 10:19:55 AM
yup, I prefer the sausage/cheese/jalapeño in West

either side of 35 is fine with me

You know the savory meat versions aren't actually called kolaches, right?  They're technically a "klobasnek."

Of course, there's also no such thing as a chicken or shrimp fajita, so there you have it.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on January 04, 2023, 10:23:10 AM
yup

kolache rolls off my yankee tongue better "klobasnek."
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 04, 2023, 08:01:34 PM
Think of an oil change setup, with shops stocking the most common batteries.  Machines swapping them out, so weight isn't an issue.

It's feasible, unless you let your distaste for the messenger of the idea cloud your judgement.
Not gonna happen in passenger vehicles. The battery packs are a stressed member of the frame (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stressed_member_engine#Automobiles) in order to improve rigidity. Making them a removable item means that you have to massively bulk up the frame of the vehicle to reach the same rigidity, increasing vehicle weight and decreasing efficiency. It likely means that you also have to build a much more durable frame for the battery to have it withstand repeated insertion and removal. Again more weight, and less efficiency. All that increased weight means more load on tires, more load on drivetrain, more load on the road. It's one thing to do it in a cordless drill, it's another to do it in a multi-ton vehicle. And this is largely unnecessary in a world where most EV owners charge at home and it's only the rare exception that they need to figure it out for a road trip.

It's not a weight problem at the "fill station" per se; it's an engineering trade-off that is unnecessary and unwise to make. Charging infrastructure is the answer, not battery swaps.

I haven't really looked at it closely when you think about vehicles like long-haul trucks, though. The battery and frame weight of the tractor on an electric 18-wheeler compared to the overall combined weight of a full trailer load, along with the much bigger size of a tractor, may make it viable there. Especially since those trucks make money when they're rolling, not when they're charging. What you give up in efficiency may be regained in what you can actually earn per day.

But it doesn't make sense in a typical passenger car.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on January 04, 2023, 08:09:12 PM
All of it's fluid.  What is now may not be in the near future.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on January 04, 2023, 08:22:06 PM
yup, batteries "could" become much smaller and lighter in the future

heck, some folks thought gasoline burning passenger cars would be around forever
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 04, 2023, 09:01:00 PM
All of it's fluid.  What is now may not be in the near future.
In the long run, we are all dead. -John Maynard Keynes

I'm talking about what we have line of sight to. Even solid state batteries, with their advantages, in my opinion don't get us remotely close to battery swaps making sense. It may be the future. It's not the near future. 

But sure, keep on keepin' on. Just don't @ me when I'm talking about cold fusion powered vehicles like it's impractical 🙄
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on January 04, 2023, 10:12:45 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/Jp8a94X.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on January 04, 2023, 11:34:36 PM
we've been using nuclear submarines for decades

it's only a matter of time, IF the evil oil companies will just allow it to happen
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on January 05, 2023, 05:19:38 AM
The battery swap concept has been examined and even tried, and it's simply not a good option, for various reasons noted.  Nobody is seriously looking at it today.

The inductive charging concept has more "legs" at this point.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on January 05, 2023, 09:58:16 AM
heck, inductive charging could be a thing in that Walmart parking lot covered in solar panels

just park your car and go shopping, no cables needed
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on January 28, 2023, 03:28:24 PM
Upside Down: Study Finds Evs Cost More to Drive Than Gas-Powered

What has turned the EV world upside down is a report by Anderson Economic Group or AEG. It found that mid-priced electric cars cost more to run than similar gas-powered cars. However, this doesn’t apply to luxury EVs and ICE vehicles.

Based on current prices, internal combustion cars need $11.29 of gas for every 100 miles driven. For electric, that goes up to $11.60. That’s if they charge their EV at home. For those that need to frequent charging stations, that number jumps up to $14.40.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/autos-hybrids/upside-down-study-finds-evs-cost-more-to-drive-than-gas-powered/ar-AA16P4Dx?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=c4dddad835704672a1d68469977c0e69 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/autos-hybrids/upside-down-study-finds-evs-cost-more-to-drive-than-gas-powered/ar-AA16P4Dx?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=c4dddad835704672a1d68469977c0e69)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on January 28, 2023, 03:56:06 PM
Most folks seem to drive SUVs which probably get more like 22 mpg, which means nearly 5 gallons per 100 miles, and with gas at about $3.40 a gallon ...

$15.45 is what I get.  

If electricity costs ¢10.7 per kilowatt-hour, charging an EV with a 200-mile range (assuming a fully depleted 54 kWh battery) will cost about $6 to reach a full charge. To compare the fueling costs of individual models of conventional and electric vehicles, see the Vehicle Cost Calculator (https://afdc.energy.gov/calc/).


Now, charging at a station instead of at home can be 3x that or more.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on January 28, 2023, 04:00:01 PM
How Much Does It Cost To Charge An EV? (jdpower.com) (https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-an-ev)

Your mileage is directly dependent on your battery capacity. Most EVs can generally travel 3 to 4 miles per kilowatt-hour (kWh) of energy. A full recharge, if your vehicle’s range is 300 miles, would require 75-100 kWh and cost $10-$14.
However, cost-efficiency comes at the price of convenience. All EVs are supplied with a home-charging cable that plugs into a wall outlet and charges about 3 to 6 miles into your car per hour (Level 1 charger). To achieve faster charging, many owners install Level 2 chargers, which are wall-mounted panels with a 240-volt circuit. They deliver about 20-40 miles of range per hour but cost $550 for the unit, not taking into account the cost of labor.
When using this method, costs will depend on the price of electricity in your area. They differ from state to state, so your monthly mileage will vary. 


Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 02, 2023, 07:22:34 AM
There is a Tesla supercharging station near us in the basement parking garage of a "development".  We drove through there a while back, every station was occupied but one.  (My step son had rented a Tesla.)  He said they had penalties for leaving your car parked there with a full charge, but it's going to be an inssue.  You pull up to a charging station and it's either full or broken, and then what?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on February 02, 2023, 08:31:28 AM
obviously needs some government regulation
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 02, 2023, 09:04:38 AM
2024 Chevrolet Blazer EV vs. Equinox EV: What’s the Difference? (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/features/2024-chevrolet-blazer-ev-vs-equinox-electric-suv-specs-comparison/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AMT%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR2cXXR4oz9--dws7C2uuknw_SQ_DbfvmC5XwgZoTMBfLiqkLo9ltgOZ2lY)

Equinox EV models with FWD will have 210 hp and 242 lb-ft of torque, while those with AWD will bump up to 290 hp and 346 lb-ft. Expect to see similar numbers for the Blazer, which Chevrolet has not announced power figures for—except the range-topping Blazer SS (https://www.motortrend.com/news/2024-chevrolet-blazer-ss-ev-suv-preview-teaser/), which will pack a dual-motor powertrain that throws down 557 hp and 648 lb-ft of torque. It seems likely that the Blazer will have a sportier demeanor than the demure Equinox.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on February 02, 2023, 09:16:16 AM
sportier
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Gigem on February 02, 2023, 06:26:03 PM
There is a Tesla supercharging station near us in the basement parking garage of a "development".  We drove through there a while back, every station was occupied but one.  (My step son had rented a Tesla.)  He said they had penalties for leaving your car parked there with a full charge, but it's going to be an inssue.  You pull up to a charging station and it's either full or broken, and then what?
Super charger or Level 2 charger?  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 03, 2023, 06:24:01 AM
Any kind of charger could be broken or occupied too long ...
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on February 03, 2023, 08:42:02 AM
same as a gas pump
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 03, 2023, 08:45:23 AM
Yeah, sure, but gas pumps today are pretty reliable.  As EVs become more common, we'll obviously need a lot more charging stations that are reliable.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on February 03, 2023, 08:46:55 AM
yup, charging stations will probably evolve faster than gas pumps

EVs will also evolve and be much improved in a few years
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 03, 2023, 09:04:52 AM
I'm curious as to how much better EVs will be in say five years.  There certainly will be a lot more of them, types, brands, etc.  My GUESS is range is going to top out around 300 miles (plus a bit).  Charging speeds may improve further, and it would be nice to have charging stations that are universal.  Then there is the price question, Tesla and Ford have cut prices recently, GM cut prices on their EUV Bolt as well, and you have the tax credit (that is limited).  

I think there is a lot to be had with delivery vehicles, FedEx etc. and maybe city buses.

When would you personally think seriously about an EV for your next purchase?  I'd guess something like five years hence it would be a candidate.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 03, 2023, 09:22:30 AM
Not on my radar at all. I'll stick to gasoline.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 03, 2023, 10:01:26 AM
When would you personally think seriously about an EV for your next purchase?  I'd guess something like five years hence it would be a candidate.
One issue for me is that I've learned not to trust the media. They strongly resist reporting facts that are counter to the narrative being pushed by the establishment. 

In this case, I want to know the impact of temperature and towing on EV range. It is 12° where I am right now and projected to drop into the single digits tonight. With an ICE the heat is basically "free" because it is a byproduct of the combustion in the cylinders. The only thing necessary to heat the vehicle is to transmit and distribute the existing heat. With an EV there is no "free" heat so you'd necessarily have to use electricity to create it and I know from home wiring that making heat takes a lot of juice. How much does that impact range?

If I bought a PHEV how much would my range from at 30°, how much at 20°, how much at 10° or even lower?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 03, 2023, 10:31:11 AM
Range is clearly a major downside with low T and towing.  This has been widely reported.  I think the car mags in general do a good job of presenting test results and data.  They highlighted these two issues, so I don't believe they are somehow avoiding important facts that run counter to the narrative.

My OPINION is that in ~five years, a lot of the deficiencies will be partly addressed for me personally to the point I'd give one serious consideration.  I might still opt for a hybrid were I in the market then.  I don't tow or live where it gets very cold of course and we have charging stations all over locally.  We do drive longer distances at times, but might not be doing that in five years.  I'd rent something if that was an issue.



Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 03, 2023, 10:55:57 AM

When would you personally think seriously about an EV for your next purchase?  I'd guess something like five years hence it would be a candidate.
It will be a serious contender for my next purchase. 

When I bought the Flex in 2017, it was with the understanding that I needed a vehicle for me + my wife + my three kids + eventually a dog. So I needed something with plenty of room. At the time, the only remotely acceptable EV on the market was the Tesla Model X, and IMHO it was not only out of my price range, but the EV infrastructure was still too new and underdeveloped to do it. 

I will keep the Flex at least until my eldest leaves for college in 3 1/2 years. So realistically I'll be looking for another vehicle roundabout 2026-27. Possibly longer if I keep the Flex a little while beyond that, as my annual driving mileage isn't as high as it was pre-pandemic. I just crossed 80K miles but probably won't be much past 100K by then. I'm sure i could keep it even longer, maybe 125K. 

So when I'm ready to buy, I think the EV market will be MUCH more developed than it was in 2017, and with all of the new EVs coming out over the next 3-4 years, much more developed than it is in 2023. 

At that point it'll probably come down to:


So I haven't made up my mind on the vehicle choice at that time, but that's when I'll seriously consider BEV. 

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 03, 2023, 11:01:02 AM
Good point about driving "miles per year".  Our five year old GTI is just under 30,000 miles.  It does pretty well on mpg, I get upper 30s on the road and maybe 28 mpg around town.  So, we're using about 200 gal per year, or $700 or so (for premium at Costco).  Even if charging was free, that isn't that much to worry about (for me).

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 03, 2023, 11:29:10 AM
Good point about driving "miles per year".  Our five year old GTI is just under 30,000 miles.  It does pretty well on mpg, I get upper 30s on the road and maybe 28 mpg around town.  So, we're using about 200 gal per year, or $700 or so (for premium at Costco).  Even if charging was free, that isn't that much to worry about (for me).
Yeah, and I've also got the Jeep that can split mileage when the weather is nice. Which, quite frankly, is most of the year here. 

So whether it'll make financial sense to go BEV or not will be decided when we get there. 

CA will be interesting because gas is expensive here, but so is electricity. Where those two fit relative to each other 4 years from now, and which way they're trending, will also be a bit part of it. If CA starts having more and more EVs such that the grid demand goes up, and the price of electricity rises relative to gas, it might actually flip the "dollars per mile" calculation the other way. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MrNubbz on February 03, 2023, 11:53:50 AM
yup, charging stations will probably evolve faster than gas pumps
You think so? How many years will it take to build up the grid with all new power lines - just for charging stations.The cost? Power Companies aren't going to do that out of the kindness of their heart. Have you been tilting some schooners with brandon up in Sewer City?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 03, 2023, 12:00:42 PM
Tesla, General Motors get boost from EV SUV tax credit change (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/03/biden-ev-tax-credits-tesla-suv.html)

The change raises the retail price cap to $80,000 from $55,000 for vehicles such as the Tesla Model Y, Cadillac Lyriq, Ford Mustang Mach-E (https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/30/ford-mustang-mach-e-price-cut.html) and Volkswagen’s ID.4. Previously some or all models of these vehicles did not qualify because they didn’t weigh enough to be considered an SUV by the Treasury’s standards.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 03, 2023, 12:05:51 PM
You think so? How many years will it take to build up the grid with all new power lines - just for charging stations.The cost? Power Companies aren't going to do that out of the kindness of their heart. Have you been tilting some schooners with brandon up in Sewer City?
Well, you're conflating a few things here. Fearless was talking about charging station evolution. We've seen massive improvements in just the last 5 years in fast charging stations. Tesla is talking about boosting the charging voltage starting with the Cybertruck that will improve charge times...

...assuming the Cybertruck actually starts shipping in the next 5 years. It's been a year away for the last 5 or so LOL.

As for the grid, I'm not thinking there will need to be a huge upgrade in power lines, specifically. The bigger issue is actual generation capacity and making sure that if the overall load on the grid increases due to all this charging, that it can be handled. And then the issue from an environmental sense is that we invest in all this extra generation but it's coal or NG, it just moves the emissions from the tailpipe to the generation plant (albeit with some likely efficiency gains). 

But I expect charging technology to improve and infrastructure to be built out significantly in the next 5 years. And obviously (per Fearless's point) we'll see it growing at a faster rate than gas pumps, because gas pump technology is mature, and infrastructure is sufficiently saturated at this point. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 03, 2023, 12:20:29 PM
Range is clearly a major downside with low T and towing.  This has been widely reported.  I think the car mags in general do a good job of presenting test results and data.  They highlighted these two issues, so I don't believe they are somehow avoiding important facts that run counter to the narrative.
The impact of towing and temperature on range hasn't been completely suppressed but you have to look harder to find it. A lot of the development and testing is done in places like SoCal where "cold" means 50° not NE Ohio where it is presently 12°.

I've also heard stories of guys who bought F150 Lightnings only to discover that when they hooked up their boats they had approximately enough range to take their boat to visit their nextdoor neighbors. 

There aren't altogether unreported but they aren't front-and-center headline news either, you have to look.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 03, 2023, 12:27:31 PM
I don't see much "news" about EVs in normal news channels, but there is a lot in the various and sundry car mags.  Anyone wanting to understand the pros and cons of an EV can access plenty of information.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 03, 2023, 12:31:48 PM
The impact of towing and temperature on range hasn't been completely suppressed but you have to look harder to find it. A lot of the development and testing is done in places like SoCal where "cold" means 50° not NE Ohio where it is presently 12°.

I've also heard stories of guys who bought F150 Lightnings only to discover that when they hooked up their boats they had approximately enough range to take their boat to visit their nextdoor neighbors.

There aren't altogether unreported but they aren't front-and-center headline news either, you have to look.
The F-150 Lighting starts at $55,974. 

I'd argue that if you're making that expensive of a purchase, on a brand new vehicle using relatively new BEV technology rather than extraordinarily well-understood ICEV technology, that it's incumbent upon you to look. And then to understand whether the capabilities of the vehicle meet your needs.

We seem to constantly get into the EV fight where the pro-EV crowd tries to convince EVERYONE that a BEV will meet their needs, while the anti-EV crowd tries to convince everyone that if a BEV can't do EVERYTHING an ICEV can do, that it meets nobody's needs. 

But there's a huge middle ground between those two. 

If I was towing a massive boat, I'd let other people be the guinea pigs with BEV trucks.  But I have more general driving needs, and once the family downsizes a bit I'm comfortable that a BEV would satisfy my driving needs enough that I'm not worried about BEV tech in general. Only whether it will make financial sense. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on February 03, 2023, 12:39:54 PM
When did trucks start getting so TALL?
I'm talking about all of it - the hood and the bed, specifically.  You could park one of those old Toyota or Datsun trucks in the back of an F-150 nowadays.
I'm sure they evolved that way, but the height from the front edge of the hood to the bottom edge of the front bumper is like 4 ft. now.  
Do truck owners not want any front clearance?  It goes so low up front.  I don't get it.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 03, 2023, 12:46:15 PM
The F-150 Lighting starts at $55,974.

I'd argue that if you're making that expensive of a purchase, on a brand new vehicle using relatively new BEV technology rather than extraordinarily well-understood ICEV technology, that it's incumbent upon you to look. And then to understand whether the capabilities of the vehicle meet your needs.

We seem to constantly get into the EV fight where the pro-EV crowd tries to convince EVERYONE that a BEV will meet their needs, while the anti-EV crowd tries to convince everyone that if a BEV can't do EVERYTHING an ICEV can do, that it meets nobody's needs.

But there's a huge middle ground between those two.

If I was towing a massive boat, I'd let other people be the guinea pigs with BEV trucks.  But I have more general driving needs, and once the family downsizes a bit I'm comfortable that a BEV would satisfy my driving needs enough that I'm not worried about BEV tech in general. Only whether it will make financial sense.
I agree with this.

I see cold for me in NE Ohio as being similar to what towing would be where you live and it is a reason to hold off longer here than I would if I lived where you live.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on February 03, 2023, 12:56:15 PM
Imagine towing IN the cold of NE Ohio!
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 03, 2023, 02:40:33 PM
When did trucks start getting so TALL?
I'm talking about all of it - the hood and the bed, specifically.  You could park one of those old Toyota or Datsun trucks in the back of an F-150 nowadays.
I'm sure they evolved that way, but the height from the front edge of the hood to the bottom edge of the front bumper is like 4 ft. now. 
Do truck owners not want any front clearance?  It goes so low up front.  I don't get it.
I'm not sure why they got so tall. But I know why they're so low in the front. It's all for aerodynamics / gas mileage. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on February 03, 2023, 02:55:10 PM
the federal govt will throw billions at charging station infrastructure if needed

hey, in five years I could be retired and living in Texas
perhaps not driving many miles a tall and near a metroplex like Dallas/FW

an EV could be a great fit at that time
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 04, 2023, 09:39:42 AM
Tesla Model Y or Ford Mustang Mach-E: Which Has More Bang for Your Buck? (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/features/tesla-model-y-vs-ford-mustang-mach-e-price-value-comparison/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AMT%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR32Qb3LWOkYWx5jgnQDzhzaG1pQByWlV_gBxdFJZt5kr8Lauc06NI3b9ZU)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on February 04, 2023, 10:14:50 AM
When did trucks start getting so TALL?
I'm talking about all of it - the hood and the bed, specifically.  You could park one of those old Toyota or Datsun trucks in the back of an F-150 nowadays.
I'm sure they evolved that way, but the height from the front edge of the hood to the bottom edge of the front bumper is like 4 ft. now. 
Do truck owners not want any front clearance?  It goes so low up front.  I don't get it.
front clearance means air turbulence under the truck which decreases gas mileage
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 04, 2023, 10:16:02 AM
There also are some bumper height requirements.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on February 04, 2023, 10:17:12 AM
really, have you seen the C8 Corvette?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on February 04, 2023, 02:08:09 PM
These 9 Electric Cars Lose The Most Range In Winter

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/autos-hybrids/these-9-electric-cars-lose-the-most-range-in-winter/ar-AA174qXv?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=37c276b0afdb41f6ab019785c9b903b8 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/autos-hybrids/these-9-electric-cars-lose-the-most-range-in-winter/ar-AA174qXv?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=37c276b0afdb41f6ab019785c9b903b8)

Tesla Model 3 – 17% Est. Range Loss

Hyundai Kona EV – 19% Est. Range Loss

Tesla Model S – 19% Est. Range Loss

Nissan Leaf – 21% Est. Range Loss

Volkswagen E-Golf – 23% Est. Range Loss

BMW i3 – 24% Est. Range Loss

Ford Mustang Mach-E – 30% Est. Range Loss

Volkswagen ID.4 – 30% Est. Range Loss

Chevrolet Bolt – 32% Est. Range Loss
The Chevy Bolt is a perfect electric car for buyers wanting to buy their first affordable BEV. It's an intriguing model with excellent efficiency, modern technology, and an impressive driving range. Plus, its visual styling makes it more appealing and popular.

Owners of this American hot hatch praise its range, performance, and value for the money. Yet, in a frigid environment or even in mildly cold weather, the battery's performance deteriorates drastically. It’s so sensitive to outside temperatures that in freezing conditions, the operating range falls by a remarkable 32%. Moreover, its thermal management system won't activate when the car is off, only reheating it when the vehicle is on.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: NorthernOhioBuckeye on February 06, 2023, 08:34:22 AM
I'm not sure why they got so tall. But I know why they're so low in the front. It's all for aerodynamics / gas mileage.
My F-250 is tall in the front also. I am 6'2" and need a step ladder to get a good view under the hood. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 07, 2023, 10:01:09 AM
2024 Mercedes-Benz eSprinter Electrifies VanLife (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a42775886/2024-mercedes-benz-esprinter-revealed/?utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&utm_medium=social-media&src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR0HJw97qGLR7nV1bOqa019bCDf1s4DR6YoMxDk6dwUdxZvN06BHzmoB6_M)

Right now, electric cargo vans are a fringe market, but Mercedes-Benz says that starting in 2025, all new Benz vans will be electric. Along with the electric Rivian Amazon vans (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a41886430/rivian-electric-vans-amazon-delivery-vehicles/) and the Ford E-Transit (https://www.caranddriver.com/ford/e-transit), the 2024 e-Sprinter is on the leading edge of stealth delivery vehicles. Imagine the GMC Vandura (https://bringatrailer.com/2019/05/23/radvan-preserved-1985-gmc-vandura-conversion-van/) A-Team van, but completely opposite.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MrNubbz on February 08, 2023, 10:39:21 PM
https://youtu.be/Zyqlv6aZxjE
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MrNubbz on February 08, 2023, 10:52:18 PM
https://youtu.be/-T9h1iUkPN4


 1st three minutes tells about a guy who charged the vehicle for a week before a trip and he got 56 miles
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on February 09, 2023, 08:31:15 AM
maybe he used the wrong charger
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 09, 2023, 08:40:06 AM
I don't really trust utibers saying such things.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 09, 2023, 11:13:47 AM
I wouldn't dare buy a Rivian. Too new, and too late, to battle with the big boys of the auto industry. Tesla may have enough of a first mover advantage to be fine (although their product line is getting increasingly stale and the Cybertruck missed its window to be a first mover), but Rivian does not. With the bevy of BEV pickups that are released or are about to be released by major automakers, I don't see Rivian surviving standalone. 

Is it possible that this guy's Rivian had some sort of firmware bug or other defect that caused excessive drain? Sure. Could this particular truck simply be a lemon? Possibly. Does that mean that every EV will suffer from this type of problem? Of course not. Scotty is just throwing out red meat to the people who are already anti-EV. 

I see plenty of Rivians on the road here in SoCal--at least one or two that I see in my neighborhood walking the dog. If every Rivian had this problem, it would be major news in EV circles. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 09, 2023, 11:15:59 AM
Never even heard of Rivian.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 09, 2023, 01:40:51 PM
Never even heard of Rivian.
That's a little surprising to me... I thought they were pretty well known. 

I could be biased because their HQ is about 5 miles from my office in Irvine, so maybe I see them a lot more than people would elsewhere. I honestly see them on the road here quite a bit. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 09, 2023, 01:50:36 PM
maybe he used the wrong charger
The you tuber makes no sense.  As is often the case.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on February 09, 2023, 03:48:45 PM
That's a little surprising to me... I thought they were pretty well known.

I could be biased because their HQ is about 5 miles from my office in Irvine, so maybe I see them a lot more than people would elsewhere. I honestly see them on the road here quite a bit.

I occasionally read articles on EVs in general and EV pickups in particular, so I know of Rivian.

I've never seen one in the Austin area, though, while Teslas appear to be every fourth vehicle on the road in this town.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 09, 2023, 03:58:56 PM
Not a lot of EV's in these parts. The old folks love them some IC engines.

Me too.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on February 09, 2023, 04:02:46 PM
Austin is an EV kinda town.  I suspect the EV pickups from the big 3 will eventually do pretty well in this city.

But as others have stated above, I don't think the Tesla Cybertruck or the Rivian will be able to compete with those offerings.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MrNubbz on February 09, 2023, 04:09:27 PM
I don't really trust utibers saying such things. 
The guy is a car expert if there is one,he gives out volumes of repair advice. As a guy who has been wrenching on vehicles for over 5 decades - he's not a fraud. He used to be on CBS years ago for weekly car advice.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 09, 2023, 04:25:42 PM
I don’t believe him on this at all 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 09, 2023, 04:58:39 PM
It could be possible the dude plugged in an EV at nearly full charge for 8 days, and then found his range had only increased 56 miles, because that put him at 100% charge.

Well, duh.  I think we all know EVs are not remotely like charging 8 miles in a day.  I think we'd have heard this from owners by now considering how many are out there.

His earlier video about gasoline being cheaper is also highly misleading.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 09, 2023, 05:24:23 PM
It could be possible the dude plugged in an EV at nearly full charge for 8 days, and then found his range had only increased 56 miles, because that put him at 100% charge.

Well, duh.  I think we all know EVs are not remotely like charging 8 miles in a day.  I think we'd have heard this from owners by now considering how many are out there.

His earlier video about gasoline being cheaper is also highly misleading.

Yeah, no matter what the root cause, he's cherry-picking an outlier and using it to prove his thesis, that you shouldn't buy an EV. It could be a lemon Rivian. It could be a faulty charging unit. It could be user error. Either way, it's not the norm. 

And the thing about gas being cheaper was based on a study that has some, let's call them, questionable methods... https://www.carscoops.com/2023/01/falling-gas-prices-mean-a-mid-level-ev-can-be-more-expensive-to-operate/
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 09, 2023, 05:32:49 PM
Sure, I saw that "study", and it indeed is ridiculous.  It's pretty easy to calculate how expensive it is to charge your car at home of course, it gets more expensive at charging stations.

Certainly, if EVs are more expensive to operate, I doubt many folks would buy them at all.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on February 10, 2023, 04:41:11 PM
but, they should if they believe in climate change and want to do their part

why vote for lawmakers that would throw money at a problem if you're not willing to do the same?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on February 11, 2023, 02:09:19 PM
OMAHA, Neb. (AP) — Warren Buffett’s company has now sold nearly 95 million of its original 225 million shares of Chinese electric carmaker BYD’s stock, but it remains a significant shareholder.

Berkshire Hathaway said in a filing with the Hong Kong stock market Thursday that it had sold another 4.235 million BYD shares since last month. Disclosure rules only require Berkshire to reveal when its ownership stake decreases into another percentage point.

After the most-recent sales, Berkshire still held 130.3 million BYD shares or about 12% of the stock. At its last report late last month, Berkshire, which is based in Omaha, Nebraska, controlled 13% of the stock.

Until last August, Berkshire had never sold any of the BYD shares it bought in 2008. The stake Berkshire paid $232 million for had ballooned in value to be worth billions of dollars.


BYD, based in the southern Chinese city of Shenzhen, is one of the biggest electric vehicle makers in the world, having sold nearly 1.9 million cars in 2022 including pure electrics, plug-ins and hybrids.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on February 11, 2023, 05:23:24 PM
Chinese automaker Zeekr has unveiled a new model, the 2023 Zeekr 001, an electric car that can reportedly travel a whopping 641 miles on a single charge.

If the new vehicle can deliver on its purported specs, it will represent a milestone moment in EV development. Automotive news website Motor1.com writes that the 2023 Zeeker 001 would be “the world’s longest-range production vehicle to our knowledge,” as the car would be capable of driving from Washington, D.C. to Atlanta, Georgia on a single charge.

Car and Driver, which maintains a list of the longest-range EVs on the market, currently ranks the 2022 Air from California carmaker Lucid as the top performer with a range of 520 miles. That’s more than 100 miles fewer than the 2023 Zeekr 001 — and the Zeekr model is approximately $125,000 less expensive.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on February 13, 2023, 07:26:53 PM
Ford will develop the LFP batteries alongside China’s Contemporary Amperex Technology Co. Limited (CATL), a global producer of EV batteries — though the automaker stressed that it will own and operate the plant outright through its wholly owned subsidiary and that the Chinese company will only provide “knowledge and services.” The construction project will generate 2,500 jobs for the region, with initial production expected to commence in 2026.

Ford claims it is the first automaker to commit to developing two separate battery chemistries for its EVs at the same time: lithium iron phosphate (LFP) and nickel cobalt manganese (NCM). (Tesla is also producing vehicles with LFP batteries.)


Most of today’s EVs use lithium-ion batteries whose cathodes use NCM chemistries. But NCM also has a lot of baggage, due mostly to cobalt, which has been called the “blood diamond of batteries” because it’s been mined in a way that’s endangered child workers and wrecked the environment in the Democratic Republic of Congo.

In contrast, LFP batteries tend to be cheaper and longer lasting but aren’t as energy dense as NCM batteries. LFP batteries are also less complex to produce. The new factory with CATL will add approximately 35 gigawatt-hours (GWh) of LFP battery capacity, the company adds.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/ford-s-evs-are-getting-faster-charging-and-more-affordable-batteries-thanks-to-new-chemistry/ar-AA17rg2s?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=66bd8a1dcedc46528f0c8c6bee3ff848 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/ford-s-evs-are-getting-faster-charging-and-more-affordable-batteries-thanks-to-new-chemistry/ar-AA17rg2s?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=66bd8a1dcedc46528f0c8c6bee3ff848)

https://youtu.be/Uwv8jega9NY
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 14, 2023, 11:36:08 AM
For some electric vehicle owners, recharging now more costly than filling up - CBS News (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/electric-car-2023-costs-gas-vehicles/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab7e&linkId=201374173)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on February 15, 2023, 11:26:46 AM
Ford Motor has paused production and shipments of its electric F-150 Lightning pickup due to a potential battery issue.
The EV truck is being closely watched by investors, as it's the first mainstream electric pickup on the market and a major launch for Ford.
The production halt adds to ongoing "execution issues" detailed to investors earlier this month by Ford CEO Jim Farley.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on February 16, 2023, 09:27:42 AM
Tesla, for the first time, has made a commitment to open up its electric vehicle (EV) charging stations to non-Tesla vehicles – taking a sweet deal from the Department of Transportation as President Biden's administration ramps up its effort to build a coast-to-coast EV charging network.

The White House on Wednesday announced that Tesla, with the support of $7.5 billion in government subsidies, will open a portion of its U.S. Supercharger and Destination Charger network to non-Tesla EVs. Elon Musk's company, which operates the second-largest charging network in America behind ChargePoint, has agreed to make at least 7,500 chargers available for all EVs by the end of 2024 and to distribute those chargers across the United States.

Tesla will place at least 3,500 new and existing 250 kW Superchargers along highway corridors and Level 2 Destination Charging at locations like hotels and restaurants in urban and rural areas, the White House said.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on February 24, 2023, 04:01:36 PM
NEW YORK (AP) — Lithium ion batteries used to power electric bicycles and scooters have already sparked 22 fires that caused 36 injuries and two deaths in New York City this year, four times the number of fires linked to the batteries by this time last year, officials said Friday.

Fire Commissioner Laura Kavanagh said Mayor Eric Adams’ administration is “coming at this problem from every single angle,” including working with the City Council and the federal Consumer Product Safety Commission on additional regulations for the batteries and educating the public on their proper use and storage.

“These are incredibly dangerous devices, and we must make sure that members of the community are handling them properly and using them safely,” Kavanagh said at a briefing on public safety.

Many of the fires blamed on the batteries have been caused by malfunctioning devices left to charge overnight and placed in a hallway or near a door where they can trap people inside a burning apartment.


Three children and an adult were injured this month when a charging battery started a fire in their upper Manhattan apartment at 1:30 a.m., officials said.

Fire Department Chief of Operations John Esposito said after the Feb. 5 blaze that when the battery overheated and sparked a fire, “it blocked the egress out of the apartment, trapping the family.”


Kavanagh said the e-bike batteries “present often an immediate inability to exit one’s room or one’s apartment or one’s home. So it’s really critical that we work with all our partners up here in government around enforcement, around education, around combating the hazards that these present to citizens and first responders.”
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on April 04, 2023, 10:32:00 AM
In the northern Swedish city of Skellefteå, 250 construction workers brave the cold every morning to build what's expected to be the largest battery-recycling facility in the world.

The site, near the Arctic Circle, belongs to the battery-manufacturing startup Northvolt and sits next door to its well-established gigafactory, where it supplies automotive giants like BMW, Volkswagen, and Volvo.

Northvolt, valued at $12 billion, was founded in 2016 by Peter Carlsson, a former Tesla vice president who dreams of making the world's greenest battery. The startup is backed by many investors, including Goldman Sachs, Baillie Gifford, VC Norrsken, and Spotify's cofounder Daniel Ek.

Demand for lithium batteries has surged since the advent of electric vehicles, which had a record-breaking year in 2022, accounting for 12.1% of the total market share for new cars in Europe.

Going electric has long been touted as a key fix to the climate crisis, but batteries' start and end of life pose a big, dirty problem — something Northvolt wants to solve.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/news/northvolt-a-12-billion-startup-founded-by-an-ex-tesla-vp-thinks-crushing-and-shredding-old-batteries-is-the-way-to-make-electric-vehicles-truly-sustainable/ar-AA19qazO?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=ba2b9e6ac76a43dca72585b73cc12aab&ei=57 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/news/northvolt-a-12-billion-startup-founded-by-an-ex-tesla-vp-thinks-crushing-and-shredding-old-batteries-is-the-way-to-make-electric-vehicles-truly-sustainable/ar-AA19qazO?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=ba2b9e6ac76a43dca72585b73cc12aab&ei=57)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 05, 2023, 12:55:03 PM
GM Overtakes Ford As The No. 2 Seller Of EVs In US, Trails Tesla (insideevs.com) (https://insideevs.com/news/660881/gm-overtakes-ford-as-no-2-seller-of-evs-in-us-trails-tesla/?fbclid=IwAR2574DaVQy_Z20sSmGbRhGjT4RjOEO1Z9IePjXI-uYFWqYN16c3v3esWyI)

What does the future look like?  Is Tesla going to maintain it's healthy lead?  Will all these folks getting into the area now prosper?

Will ICE cars have a market far past 2035?

I'd note 21,000 EV sales oer quarter  by GM is a fraction of their overall sales volume.

GM said it sold 2.27 million vehicles in the U.S. in 2022, up by 2.5% over 2021.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on April 05, 2023, 01:15:57 PM
As of now, I don't think it's not practical for us.

We have to run the A/C nearly all the time here. That takes juice on top of moving the car.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on April 05, 2023, 01:26:56 PM
better leave the gas pumps up for a while
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 05, 2023, 01:29:00 PM
GM Overtakes Ford As The No. 2 Seller Of EVs In US, Trails Tesla (insideevs.com) (https://insideevs.com/news/660881/gm-overtakes-ford-as-no-2-seller-of-evs-in-us-trails-tesla/?fbclid=IwAR2574DaVQy_Z20sSmGbRhGjT4RjOEO1Z9IePjXI-uYFWqYN16c3v3esWyI)

What does the future look like?  Is Tesla going to maintain it's healthy lead?  Will all these folks getting into the area now prosper?

Will ICE cars have a market far past 2035?

I'd note 21,000 EV sales oer quarter  by GM is a fraction of their overall sales volume.

GM said it sold 2.27 million vehicles in the U.S. in 2022, up by 2.5% over 2021.

I find it very interesting to speculate where Tesla will be in 10 years. 

Pros:


Cons:



The next 10 years of the EV market are going to be wild. Tesla has a lead. We'll see if they can do anything with it. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 06, 2023, 09:54:18 AM
My question is who is going to be the first to build and operate charging stations (a la gas stations) nationwide?  Will an existing oil company make a plan to transform 20% of their gas stations to full charging stations, spread out around the country?  Or will a new upstart pop up and do it?
Someone will have to do something, if EVs are going to make any type of big leap.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 06, 2023, 09:58:12 AM
We would need more charging stations than pumps for obvious reasons, at least at current rates of charging.

The gas stations are nearly all independently owned.  Very few are owned by "Exxon" etc..  If there is demand, they will get built.  Our Kroger already has two separate private charging stations in their parking lot.  I think this is the way of the nearer future, stations where folks are going to be spending some time anyway.

I think I read VW is also getting into the game.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 06, 2023, 10:48:20 AM
My question is who is going to be the first to build and operate charging stations (a la gas stations) nationwide?  Will an existing oil company make a plan to transform 20% of their gas stations to full charging stations, spread out around the country?  Or will a new upstart pop up and do it?
Someone will have to do something, if EVs are going to make any type of big leap.
It's already being done. Obviously Tesla has their Supercharger network. There are others that aren't directly affiliated with specific automakers like Electrify America and Chargepoint, although I believe (as CD alludes to) that Electrify America is partially owned/funded by automakers including VW.

We would need more charging stations than pumps for obvious reasons, at least at current rates of charging.


I disagree that we need more stations, even with the slower rate of charge. IMHO EV fueling stations are unlikely to be as plentiful as gas stations. If you ask most EV owners, one of the best things about an EV is that you charge it at home. The range is sufficient for most owners that the only time they'd need to use a third-party charger is on a road trip. They love the fact that they almost never have to go to a gas station.

I often highlight this, however, as one reason that EV adoption may not be as fast as some predict. The cost advantage makes the most sense when you charge at home, because third-party charging will be at higher rates than home service. And given the number of people in this country who live in apartments, who rent single-family homes (where an owner might not be willing to pay for a charger), or live in places where all they have access to is street parking, home charging won't be feasible for them.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 06, 2023, 11:30:18 AM
Yeah, if most folks charge at home, that alleviates the issue substantially.  We still have a lot of interstate travel with cars and trucks.  And it takes a while to recharge when you are traveling.  We might not need so many chargers "around town" though. (which oddly is where most reside now).

But this transition is going to be gradual in the US anyway, at best.  I know "everyone" is pushing it, but the best? estimate I read is that by 2050, half the cars in the US will burn gasoline.  One can of course roughly approximate the replacement rates if by 2035 all new cars are EVs (which won't be the case outside a few states, and in those states I expect to see get arounds galore).
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 06, 2023, 11:47:41 AM
Yeah, if most folks charge at home, that alleviates the issue substantially.  We still have a lot of interstate travel with cars and trucks.  And it takes a while to recharge when you are traveling.  We might not need so many chargers "around town" though. (which oddly is where most reside now).

But this transition is going to be gradual in the US anyway, at best.  I know "everyone" is pushing it, but the best? estimate I read is that by 2050, half the cars in the US will burn gasoline.  One can of course roughly approximate the replacement rates if by 2035 all new cars are EVs (which won't be the case outside a few states, and in those states I expect to see get arounds galore).
2050 is 27 years away. If there is not a seismic shift in transportation in this country between now and then, largely caused by autonomous driving, I'll be surprised. 

I think autonomy is harder than many of its proponents believe, but that it'll be here well before 2050. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 06, 2023, 01:45:49 PM
The Cadillac SuperCruise system seems to be pretty good already.  I think a sea change will happen when heavy trucks go autonomous.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Gigem on April 06, 2023, 03:03:11 PM
2050 is 27 years away. If there is not a seismic shift in transportation in this country between now and then, largely caused by autonomous driving, I'll be surprised.

I think autonomy is harder than many of its proponents believe, but that it'll be here well before 2050.
I think the biggest issue with Automomous Driving is getting all the cars with some level of Autonomy.  When you have all or most cars driving themselves and talking to the other nearby cars as well you make it easier.  One single person driven car out of 30 AD messes it up, because that one factor is not programmable.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on April 06, 2023, 03:04:29 PM
^^^

Great point.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on April 06, 2023, 03:37:46 PM
seems to me there are many points that aren't programmable 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 06, 2023, 04:32:05 PM
The Cadillac SuperCruise system seems to be pretty good already.  I think a sea change will happen when heavy trucks go autonomous.
"Pretty good" is not autonomous. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 07, 2023, 08:36:50 AM
The Best Self Driving Tech? 2022 Cadillac Escalade Super Cruise Review! - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy8S9rkBRVc)

No, it's not fully autonomous, but it's quite good.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 07, 2023, 09:54:27 AM
The 2024 Kia EV9 Will Drive 300 Miles on a Single Charge (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/2024-kia-ev9-range-300-miles-single-charge/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AAMAG%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR3G5c7sspeT766RQnWg2hBE-aJkUlMmaS_zsL1wL7OiNb1uOCgT_uNNcg8)

Thanks to its standard 800V electrical architecture—a key distinction of its E-GMP platform—Kia estimates the three-row electric SUV will charge from 10 to 80 percent in under 25 minutes using a 230-kWh Level 3 charger. Those times are a little higher than the smaller EV6, but if our experience with the EV6 serves as proof, we have no doubt we'll see the numbers Kia claims for the EV9.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 07, 2023, 10:03:39 AM
The price is not yet available, I presume it's $65K plus or so for a three row.  300 mile range is pretty decent.  So, you drive 250 miles and are 83% discharged and spend about 20 minutes to get to 80% charge (240 miles range) and drive on.  Not too terrible I think (if you can find the right charger).

One issue is that driving fast on freeways is not where range is optimized, you might really only see 260 mile range, and cold weather and heavier load ...

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 07, 2023, 12:47:26 PM
Porsche Confirms Electric Cayenne Will Follow 718 EV Sports Cars (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a43294814/porsche-electric-cayenne-confirmation/?src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social-media&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&fbclid=IwAR3G5c7sspeT766RQnWg2hBE-aJkUlMmaS_zsL1wL7OiNb1uOCgT_uNNcg8)



Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: longhorn320 on April 09, 2023, 06:14:39 PM
This is where improvement is needed


https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/tesla-announces-plans-cheaper-iron-based-batteries
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MrNubbz on April 10, 2023, 09:37:11 AM
So with cheaper batteries they will at least get you outta the driveway and down to 1st 2 or 3 stop signs before tapping out
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 10, 2023, 09:55:44 AM
nickel-based batteries, which have a capacity of 75 kilowatt-hours (kWh), as opposed to LFP batteries, which will be able to hold 53 kWh.

You get 3-4 miles per kWh.  So, you'd drop  from about 260 miles range to about 180 miles of range.  I don't know about recharge time, another factor.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on April 11, 2023, 08:18:01 AM
WASHINGTON (AP) — Many Americans aren’t yet sold on going electric for their next cars, a new poll shows, with high prices and too few charging stations the main deterrents. About 4 in 10 U.S. adults are at least somewhat likely to switch, but the history-making shift from the country’s century-plus love affair with gas-driven vehicles still has a ways to travel.

The poll by The Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research and the Energy Policy Institute at the University of Chicago shows that the Biden administration’s plans to dramatically raise U.S. EV sales could run into resistance from consumers. Only 8% of U.S. adults say they or someone in their household owns or leases an electric vehicle, and just 8% say their household has a plug-in hybrid vehicle.

Even with tax credits of up to $7,500 to buy a new EV, it could be difficult to persuade drivers to ditch their gas-burning cars and trucks for vehicles without tailpipe emissions.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on April 11, 2023, 08:28:43 AM
This is all about government control. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MrNubbz on April 11, 2023, 08:32:08 AM
Not of themselves of course
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 11, 2023, 08:55:57 AM
It would happen without any government prodding, I think, but more slowly.  We all know the issues with EVs.  Some should get solved over time.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on April 11, 2023, 09:29:50 AM
I guess I'll buy my last Benz next year.

Mercedes-Benz will go all-electric by 2025, and has big plans for electric vehicles | TechRadar (https://www.techradar.com/news/mercedes-benz-will-go-all-electric-by-2025-and-has-big-plans-for-electric-vehicles)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 11, 2023, 09:37:03 AM
All newly developed vehicle architecture from that point on will be electric-only, and the company will offer an EV alternative in every vehicle it makes.

That means they would still offer ICE alternatives for most vehicles it makes also.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 11, 2023, 09:47:42 AM
General Motors invests in EnergyX lithium extraction (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/11/general-motors-energyx-investment.html)

(https://i.imgur.com/c0k0e30.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 11, 2023, 01:28:27 PM
This is all about government control.
...of the rate at which the inevitable thing will happen.

So really, you'd be bitching about the pace of progress.  Not exactly big gub'mint.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 11, 2023, 02:34:03 PM
Government control obviously can be bad and nefarious, but not always.  Duh.  EVs are coming, government is trying to make them come faster (probably with limited success).  Norway has done it by lifting tolls, taxes,  and fees on EVs and they have a lot of toll roads.  

The Norwegian EV incentives: No purchase/import tax on EVs (1990-2022). From 2023 some purchase tax based on the cars’ weight on all new EVs. Exemption from 25% VAT on purchase (2001-2022). From 2023, Norway will implement a 25 percent VAT on the purchase price from 500 000 Norwegian Kroner and over; No annual road tax (1996-2021).
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on April 11, 2023, 04:38:55 PM
Taxpayer subsidized early adoption.

If the taxpayers are cool with it, then it's no problem.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 11, 2023, 04:41:29 PM
EVs make more sense, I think, in Europe, where most cars are small and Diesel now, and distances tend to be shorter*.  They burn dirty Diesel also.  Then they have these 50 cc scooters that pollute like crazy.

Their air pollution often is really bad.


*They use a funny kind of mile that isn't a mile at all, only about 60% of a mile....

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 11, 2023, 04:52:35 PM
Taxpayer subsidized early adoption.

If the taxpayers are cool with it, then it's no problem.
Often the voters that push for more spending are the people who pay little taxes, while the voters who oppose more spending are the people who pay lots of taxes. 

But hey, when did a voter ever dislike paying for something with OPM?

EVs make more sense, I think, in Europe, where most cars are small and Diesel now, and distances tend to be shorter*.  They burn dirty Diesel also.  Then they have these 50 cc scooters that pollute like crazy.

Their air pollution often is really bad.

*They use a funny kind of mile that isn't a mile at all, only about 60% of a mile....
Well, I do think that the way most Europeans live is a lot more localized and with smaller distances to be traveled on a daily basis. 

But at the same time, most American life is pretty damn localized and there aren't long distances to be traveled on a daily basis. 80% of the US population live in urban areas (which I assume includes suburban and possibly even exurban). 

But usually the issue is that a car is a very major purchase, and we tend to make those purchases partially on "what do I do 95% of the time?" but also "what do I need to be CAPABLE of doing the other 5% of the time?"

I think for most potential EV purchasers, they are scared an EV won't work for that 10%. Whether that's a road trip, or whether that's towing, or whether that's range anxiety in the coldest 2 weeks of winter. 

It's why a lot of multi-car EV families have one BEV and one ICEV. The BEV is great for around-town stuff, and maybe could even be the majority of the family's miles driven. But they like to keep the ICEV (whether it's a truck, or used for road trips, etc) for the times when the BEV might be inconvenient. 

In our family, EVs hadn't been mature enough yet when my wife got her RX350, but with our current lifestyle, a BEV makes perfect sense for her. She does the majority of her driving to/from work and running errands and would basically never have any problem with range. With home charging she'd never have to visit a gas station again. And then with me having the Ford Flex (and the Jeep), we'd have an ICEV with plenty of seating that could handle any time we need to take the kids somewhere, or any time we need to road trip. Since I primarily WFH with limited days in the office, our total familial gas consumption would DRASTICALLY drop if she was driving a BEV. When it comes time to replace her RX, it might be with an RZ. Granted that's probably 5+ years from now. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on April 11, 2023, 06:34:07 PM
Often the voters that push for more spending are the people who pay little taxes, while the voters who oppose more spending are the people who pay lots of taxes.

But hey, when did a voter ever dislike paying for something with OPM?

Yup, all of this, precisely.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on April 12, 2023, 04:17:08 AM
Often the voters that push for more spending are the people who pay little taxes, while the voters who oppose more spending are the people who pay lots of taxes.

But hey, when did a voter ever dislike paying for something with OPM?
Someone once said, "eventually you run out of other people's money."
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 12, 2023, 06:47:18 AM
These regulations don't cost government much at all, and of course can be reversed by a different president.

They can end up costing consumers a lot.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on April 12, 2023, 08:23:56 AM
WASHINGTON (AP) — The Biden administration is proposing strict new automobile pollution limits that would require as many as two-thirds of new vehicles sold in the U.S. to be electric by 2032, a nearly tenfold increase over current electric vehicle sales.

The proposed regulation, announced Wednesday by the Environmental Protection Agency, would set tailpipe emissions limits for the 2027 through 2032 model years that are the strictest ever imposed — and call for far more new EV sales than the auto industry agreed to less than two years ago.

If finalized next year as expected, the plan would represent the strongest push yet toward a once almost unthinkable shift from gasoline-powered cars and trucks to battery-powered vehicles.

A look at what the EPA is proposing, how the plan serves President Joe Biden’s ambitious goal to cut America’s planet-warming greenhouse gas emissions in half by 2030, and whether the auto industry can meet the new EV targets:

Q. What is the EPA proposing?

A, The proposed tailpipe pollution limits don’t require a specific number of electric vehicles to be sold every year, but instead they mandate limits on greenhouse gas emissions. Depending on how automakers comply, the EPA projects that at least 60% of new passenger vehicles sold in the U.S. would be electric by 2030 and up to 67% by 2032.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 12, 2023, 08:25:26 AM
Car makers may emphasize EVs that are large and expensive and that would usually burn a lot of gasoline (= CO2) and still make smaller ICE vehicles...
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on April 12, 2023, 09:21:29 AM
What will be used to generate the power all of these EV's need?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 12, 2023, 09:24:25 AM
Fairy dust.  I have read different estimates for how much additional electricity would be needed.  The best is around 25% more, though the time of day part is important.

That presumes every car and truck is electric, which won't happen for a LONG time.  I read another estimate that compared it to the arrival of whole house air conditioners and how that rather slowly took effect and demand was accomodated.  

EVs will come along so slowly I don't think power companies will struggle because of it, they may well struggle to manage the variability of wind and solar.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on April 12, 2023, 09:43:05 AM
My guess was gonna be fairy dust.

This is just stupid.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 12, 2023, 09:46:13 AM
Well, stupid or not, it's going to happen, but more slowly than some think.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: grillrat on April 12, 2023, 02:17:03 PM
Often the voters that push for more spending are the people who pay little taxes, while the voters who oppose more spending are the people who pay lots of taxes.

But hey, when did a voter ever dislike paying for something with OPM?
Well, I do think that the way most Europeans live is a lot more localized and with smaller distances to be traveled on a daily basis.

But at the same time, most American life is pretty damn localized and there aren't long distances to be traveled on a daily basis. 80% of the US population live in urban areas (which I assume includes suburban and possibly even exurban).

But usually the issue is that a car is a very major purchase, and we tend to make those purchases partially on "what do I do 95% of the time?" but also "what do I need to be CAPABLE of doing the other 5% of the time?"

I think for most potential EV purchasers, they are scared an EV won't work for that 10%. Whether that's a road trip, or whether that's towing, or whether that's range anxiety in the coldest 2 weeks of winter.

It's why a lot of multi-car EV families have one BEV and one ICEV. The BEV is great for around-town stuff, and maybe could even be the majority of the family's miles driven. But they like to keep the ICEV (whether it's a truck, or used for road trips, etc) for the times when the BEV might be inconvenient.

In our family, EVs hadn't been mature enough yet when my wife got her RX350, but with our current lifestyle, a BEV makes perfect sense for her. She does the majority of her driving to/from work and running errands and would basically never have any problem with range. With home charging she'd never have to visit a gas station again. And then with me having the Ford Flex (and the Jeep), we'd have an ICEV with plenty of seating that could handle any time we need to take the kids somewhere, or any time we need to road trip. Since I primarily WFH with limited days in the office, our total familial gas consumption would DRASTICALLY drop if she was driving a BEV. When it comes time to replace her RX, it might be with an RZ. Granted that's probably 5+ years from now.
My wife bought her Chevy Bolt and this is exactly the situation we are in.  She uses the Bolt for day-to-day driving around town for errands and we use a ICE for longer trips.
We live in the Columbus, OH area.  We have had a few day trips where we have traveled to Cincinatti, Dayton, and Cleveland that we have used the Bolt for.  It's worked pretty well where we drive down, plug in to a charger for about 5 hours (a lvl 2) and then drove home.  We've driven to Indy and back once, and that required a hour stop in Dayton at a lvl 3 charger.  That is about the farthest we're willing to travel in it (at least in the winter months).

I think it is going to just come down to the technology catching up to where those charge stations can get down to 30 minutes instead of an hour.  Once the inconvenience of spending significant time charging goes away, the popularity of EV's is going to increase.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 12, 2023, 02:19:57 PM
If I had one, I'd probably use it around town of course and for shorter trips of 3 hours or less.  My step son drove a rented Tesla from here to Cincy and said it went fine.  But I agree about making the charging times faster.  They are getting there, but I don't know how much faster they can go.

It could be ideal to have one ICE and one EV for many families.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on April 12, 2023, 02:26:18 PM
There are pure physical limitations to charging time and storage capacity per unit size that we're not going to break through, unless/until some truly revolutionary battery/storage technology emerges as viable within the market. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on April 12, 2023, 02:31:06 PM
Who has all the raw materials for these batteries? 

My limited understanding is that the US has an untapped reserve, but we're not going to go find it. Is this true?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on April 12, 2023, 02:31:12 PM
We're currently planning our boy scout troop summer camp trip, we'll be driving out to New Mexico from Austin.  We'll have four vehicles carrying the kids, adult leaders, and towing the troop's equipment trailer.  But one of the dads/adult leaders who has two sons going, only has electric vehicles in his family.  He was asking that we stop twice on the first day, once for an hour, and once for an hour and a half, based on his EV's capability and the availability of charging stations along the route.

I politely suggested that he leave 2-3 hours earlier than us, so that he can arrive at the same time we do.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on April 12, 2023, 02:45:47 PM
We're currently planning our boy scout troop summer camp trip, we'll be driving out to New Mexico from Austin.  We'll have four vehicles carrying the kids, adult leaders, and towing the troop's equipment trailer.  But one of the dads/adult leaders who has two sons going, only has electric vehicles in his family.  He was asking that we stop twice on the first day, once for an hour, and once for an hour and a half, based on his EV's capability and the availability of charging stations along the route.

I politely suggested that he leave 2-3 hours earlier than us, so that he can arrive at the same time we do.


I think we are the same guy.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 12, 2023, 02:54:07 PM
Who has all the raw materials for these batteries?

My limited understanding is that the US has an untapped reserve, but we're not going to go find it. Is this true?
Chile is the largest producer of lithium
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 12, 2023, 03:13:38 PM
There are pure physical limitations to charging time and storage capacity per unit size that we're not going to break through, unless/until some truly revolutionary battery/storage technology emerges as viable within the market.
Charging rate (as we discussed early in this thread) is non-linear, with charging being faster when the batteries have less charge and slowing as you approach 100%. We think in terms of gas tanks where there'd never be a reason to stop before it's "full", but that won't be the paradigm IMHO when road tripping with an EV. 

Charging rate is also dependent on the type of charger. A Level 2 charger (that you might put in your garage for overnight charging) is WAY too slow for road trip use. But a 250 kW or 350 kW (current max) charger will add charge MUCH faster. 

What I think that Tesla has shown is that with planned charging and Superchargers, you might go from 10% to 80% in 20-30 minutes which is plenty to get you a few hundred miles of range. A few hundred miles gets you to the next charging station where you may want to get out and take care of food and/or bio breaks anyway. 

Who has all the raw materials for these batteries?

My limited understanding is that the US has an untapped reserve, but we're not going to go find it. Is this true?

Depends on which materials you are looking for. Apparently lithium is plentiful. Although I don't know how much actual mining capacity we have worldwide to meet a major spike in lithium demand. It doesn't matter how much there is if we don't have an industry that's sized to dig it out of the ground at the rates we need. 

The bigger issue is some of the other metals like cobalt and nickel. That's why automakers are trying to work with the LFP (lithium iron phosphate) chemistry to take some of those more rare metals out of the product, but unfortunately it's currently at lower storage density relative to lithium ion, but at lower price too. 

The industry is searching for a way to recycle batteries, but it remains to be seen if that can be done effectively and economically. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on April 12, 2023, 03:30:27 PM
Charging rate (as we discussed early in this thread) is non-linear, with charging being faster when the batteries have less charge and slowing as you approach 100%. We think in terms of gas tanks where there'd never be a reason to stop before it's "full", but that won't be the paradigm IMHO when road tripping with an EV.

Charging rate is also dependent on the type of charger. A Level 2 charger (that you might put in your garage for overnight charging) is WAY too slow for road trip use. But a 250 kW or 350 kW (current max) charger will add charge MUCH faster.

What I think that Tesla has shown is that with planned charging and Superchargers, you might go from 10% to 80% in 20-30 minutes which is plenty to get you a few hundred miles of range. A few hundred miles gets you to the next charging station where you may want to get out and take care of food and/or bio breaks anyway.

But even a 20-minute stop to charge, requires changing a paradigm for many users-- and that's something they're unwilling to do.

There are many use cases of course, but for me the "fast stops" on my roadtrips are exactly the 5 minutes it takes to gas-n-go.  The "long stops" on my trip are the 30 minutes it takes to gas up the car, cycle the kids through the bathroom, grab some food to eat in the car, and hit the accelerator.  In no circumstances do my "long stops" on a family roadtrip, involve dining in a leisurely way that would take 45 minutes or more.

Not every trip we take is a long-haul roadtrip, of course.  If we're only going somewhere 2-3 hours away, I consider that a Sunday drive, and stopping off for a leisurely lunch would not only enable time to charge, but also enjoy spending time at a (hopefully) pleasant destination point.  In those cases, an EV would fit the needs.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: longhorn320 on April 12, 2023, 04:14:49 PM
what is needed is either longer battery life or a much smaller battery so you could have a 2nd battery for double distance
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 12, 2023, 04:32:45 PM
But even a 20-minute stop to charge, requires changing a paradigm for many users-- and that's something they're unwilling to do.

There are many use cases of course, but for me the "fast stops" on my roadtrips are exactly the 5 minutes it takes to gas-n-go.  The "long stops" on my trip are the 30 minutes it takes to gas up the car, cycle the kids through the bathroom, grab some food to eat in the car, and hit the accelerator.  In no circumstances do my "long stops" on a family roadtrip, involve dining in a leisurely way that would take 45 minutes or more.

Not every trip we take is a long-haul roadtrip, of course.  If we're only going somewhere 2-3 hours away, I consider that a Sunday drive, and stopping off for a leisurely lunch would not only enable time to charge, but also enjoy spending time at a (hopefully) pleasant destination point.  In those cases, an EV would fit the needs.
I'm the same way. An EV road trip would be a change for me. 

But remember, you get a benefit for that paradigm change. The other paradigm change for most EV owners is that you NEVER have to fill up your car with gas again. You charge at home in your garage overnight, and never have to go out of your way to visit a filling station. 

Would you make your rare and uncommon long-haul road trip a little more inconvenient to make 98% of your life more convenient? 

I look at it like the decision to have a mountain cabin, a boat, or an RV. It's the type of thing that if you're using it constantly, it's worth it. If you're not using in nearly every damn weekend, it's better to rent. In this case it's the opposite. If you're constantly towing, or going on long-distance camping trips every weekend, or road trips twice a month, maybe an EV is not for you. If you're going on long-range road trips once a year? It might be worth it to just deal with the charging, or rent an ICEV for the road trip. Because you make your daily routine more convenient by having your "tank" full every morning when you wake up. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on April 12, 2023, 10:58:27 PM
But... I don't find 3-5 minute fill-ups every week or two to be inconvenient.  Do others really chafe at this?

It's possible I'm the exception, but that characterization really sounds more like a solution in search of a problem to me.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 13, 2023, 04:38:33 AM
I usually plan on stopping about every three hours when doing a long trip.  I drove back from south Florida after baseball, it's about 8 hours, we stopped twice, had lunch once (fast food) and refueled.  I guess in an EV with a 300 mile range were I topped off, I'd stop after 240 miles or so and charge back to 80%.  That might take 20 minutes?

I could make it home from there.   Other factors include cold weather and that EVs don't make great range at constant higher speeds.  Forget towing of course.  This scenario is one where fast chargers are readily available, right now they aren't so much.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on April 13, 2023, 08:32:23 AM
It's different and will take some time to feel normal but someday in the future it will be normal 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on April 13, 2023, 08:49:07 AM
It's different and will take some time to feel normal but someday in the future it will be normal

I expect that someday in the future, individual driving on public roadways will be illegal and self-driving vehicles will be mandated by law.  I guess to those poor suckers born into it, it'll feel normal.

And a FEW people might be lucky enough to have uncles with country places, that no one knows about...
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 13, 2023, 08:59:08 AM
My guess is autonomous will be required on freeways, maybe not secondaries as much.  And I can envision long trains of cars going along with little separation at high speeds.  I don't know about the induction notion.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Gigem on April 13, 2023, 09:10:09 AM
But... I don't find 3-5 minute fill-ups every week or two to be inconvenient.  Do others really chafe at this?

It's possible I'm the exception, but that characterization really sounds more like a solution in search of a problem to me.
But, what if by charging at home is about half the cost of using gas?  Then the gas will seem like the worse option.  

Obviously, living in the hometown of Buc-Ees, I like dropping by the gas station more than a few times a week.  They do have EV chargers at Buc-Ees now, at least at the one in Bastrop.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on April 13, 2023, 09:13:04 AM
But, what if by charging at home is about half the cost of using gas?  Then the gas will seem like the worse option. 

Obviously, living in the hometown of Buc-Ees, I like dropping by the gas station more than a few times a week.  They do have EV chargers at Buc-Ees now, at least at the one in Bastrop. 

Sure, eventually economics could drive the free market there WITHOUT any ham-fisted government interference.  I'd be all for that.

Within my lifetime, the EV technology will never be able to solve my towing problem, but I recognize that my own specific use case is a minority position.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 13, 2023, 09:21:41 AM
I am guessing towing might need fuel cells, which are a kind of EV.  I don't know how these semi's really can work, I've never seen independent testing of them.

Otherwise, towing might need that Diesel plug in hybrid concept.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Gigem on April 13, 2023, 09:30:07 AM
I expect that someday in the future, individual driving on public roadways will be illegal and self-driving vehicles will be mandated by law.  I guess to those poor suckers born into it, it'll feel normal.

And a FEW people might be lucky enough to have uncles with country places, that no one knows about...
Agreed.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Gigem on April 13, 2023, 09:31:54 AM
Sure, eventually economics could drive the free market there WITHOUT any ham-fisted government interference.  I'd be all for that.

Within my lifetime, the EV technology will never be able to solve my towing problem, but I recognize that my own specific use case is a minority position.
Totally agree with you, but I also think it doesn't have to solve every transportation problem to be successful.  I currently own 3 diesel trucks, and will soon be adding a 4th.  I also own three gas vehicles, and I will own an EV someday to fill a certain need.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: grillrat on April 13, 2023, 09:43:22 AM
But... I don't find 3-5 minute fill-ups every week or two to be inconvenient.  Do others really chafe at this?

It's possible I'm the exception, but that characterization really sounds more like a solution in search of a problem to me.

My wife does.  She HATES gassing up.  Especially in the winter months.  That was literally half the appeal of getting an EV to her.

For a couple of years there, she got pretty good at tricking me into gassing up for her.  "Honey, we need three more bags of mulch for the area by the garden, can you run down to Lowes and get some."  I have a sedan, so her Rav4 was the car to use to bring home larger items.  I get in the car, pull out of the driveway, and then "Ding", the low gas light flips on......
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on April 13, 2023, 10:07:48 AM
Sure, eventually economics could drive the free market there WITHOUT any ham-fisted government interference.  I'd be all for that.

Within my lifetime, the EV technology will never be able to solve my towing problem, but I recognize that my own specific use case is a minority position.
We hope.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on April 13, 2023, 11:09:03 AM
Worth watching.

University Place | Hybrid Future: Electric vs. Electrified Powertrains | PBS (https://www.pbs.org/video/hybrid-future-electric-vs-electrified-powertrains-zlmi9n/)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 13, 2023, 11:27:59 AM
The proposed EPA standard for fleets is 82 g/mile CO2.  A gallon of gas is 8,887 g/co2 eq.  So, a compliant vehicle (not fleet) would need to get 108 mpg, which is within the realm of plug in hybrids (for smaller vehicles).  You might have to go full EV on larger vehicles to offset, but this doesn't drive every vehicle to full EV.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 17, 2023, 05:54:43 AM
Hydrogen and EVs could play a big role in trucking's future (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/17/hydrogen-and-evs-could-play-a-big-role-in-truckings-future.html)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 17, 2023, 08:27:08 AM
2024 Mercedes-Maybach EQS680 SUV Is One Glamorous Electric SUV (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a43552495/2024-mercedes-maybach-eqs680-suv-revealed/?utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&utm_medium=social-media&utm_source=facebook&src=socialflowFBCAD&fbclid=IwAR1_JXcfjuQGHWn3jSDVCTjbEIQ4YPQI7FgwEIA_z1vftxQx3tsxD6v0xLs)

For Mrs. Badger ...

(https://i.imgur.com/mKuO8nA.png)

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: NorthernOhioBuckeye on April 17, 2023, 08:45:21 AM
My wife does.  She HATES gassing up.  Especially in the winter months.  That was literally half the appeal of getting an EV to her.

For a couple of years there, she got pretty good at tricking me into gassing up for her.  "Honey, we need three more bags of mulch for the area by the garden, can you run down to Lowes and get some."  I have a sedan, so her Rav4 was the car to use to bring home larger items.  I get in the car, pull out of the driveway, and then "Ding", the low gas light flips on......
Are you secretly married to my wife? :)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 17, 2023, 08:48:26 AM
We don't drive much except on trips, so about every three weeks we make a Costco run and I gas it up, no biggee.  On trips, I also has it up, she does it very rarely, but never complained about it.  She lived on her own for a while of course.

I'm old enough to recall when "Self Service" was an option, and before that, it wasn't an option.

I know some states like NJ lack the option now.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 17, 2023, 08:49:06 AM
We could manage now with an EV, we have chargers on site, and four more at our local Kroger.  I'd rent something for long trips.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on April 17, 2023, 08:51:08 AM
2024 Mercedes-Maybach EQS680 SUV Is One Glamorous Electric SUV (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a43552495/2024-mercedes-maybach-eqs680-suv-revealed/?utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&utm_medium=social-media&utm_source=facebook&src=socialflowFBCAD&fbclid=IwAR1_JXcfjuQGHWn3jSDVCTjbEIQ4YPQI7FgwEIA_z1vftxQx3tsxD6v0xLs)

For Mrs. Badger ...

(https://i.imgur.com/mKuO8nA.png)


I'd have to get into the banking industry. Like robbing one.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 17, 2023, 09:01:43 AM
2024 BMW i7 M70 xDrive Towers With 811 lb-ft of Electric Torque (roadandtrack.com) (https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a43592357/2024-bmw-i7-m70-xdrive/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social-media&utm_campaign=socialflowR%26T&fbclid=IwAR1U5wULBGOfC3LkBiWDo2-IPSWk9LdEMfj0xIe0rGpp-_V9y1JzJDK4_rU)

(https://i.imgur.com/wuBjMjG.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 17, 2023, 09:05:24 AM
2025 Volkswagen ID.7 Promises More Power, Better Range Than ID.4 (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a43607443/2025-volkswagen-id7-specs-revealed/?utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&utm_source=facebook&src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_medium=social-media&fbclid=IwAR0z_iTmVnHtATjhSRm1FtjusN6Ow7goKrah_6FGKn-xVkyZkRhkK3NIOCU)

The ID.7's standard powertrain setup will be a single-motor, rear-wheel-drive configuration with a 282-horsepower electric motor. That's more powerful than the RWD ID.4's 201-hp motor, and in the U.S. the ID.7 will initially come standard with the same 77.0-kWh battery pack as the crossover. The company is targeting an EPA range of 300 miles, which is a bit behind the ID.7's main rivals which include the Tesla Model 3 (https://www.caranddriver.com/tesla/model-3) and the Hyundai Ioniq 6 (https://www.caranddriver.com/hyundai/ioniq-6).

A larger 86.0-kWh pack will be optional in other markets and VW claims a WLTP range of 435 miles with that option. That could translate to over 350 miles on the U.S. EPA cycle, although it's possible that Volkswagen will reserve this larger battery pack on our shores for only a more powerful (but less efficient) dual-motor all-wheel-drive variant.



Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on April 17, 2023, 09:09:26 AM
2024 BMW i7 M70 xDrive Towers With 811 lb-ft of Electric Torque (roadandtrack.com) (https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a43592357/2024-bmw-i7-m70-xdrive/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social-media&utm_campaign=socialflowR%26T&fbclid=IwAR1U5wULBGOfC3LkBiWDo2-IPSWk9LdEMfj0xIe0rGpp-_V9y1JzJDK4_rU)

(https://i.imgur.com/wuBjMjG.png)
Ugly.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 17, 2023, 09:11:53 AM
I agree, the VW looks decent.

(https://i.imgur.com/KwBVy3G.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on April 17, 2023, 09:16:53 AM
The proposed EPA standard for fleets is 82 g/mile CO2.  A gallon of gas is 8,887 g/co2 eq.  So, a compliant vehicle (not fleet) would need to get 108 mpg, which is within the realm of plug in hybrids (for smaller vehicles).  You might have to go full EV on larger vehicles to offset, but this doesn't drive every vehicle to full EV.


wait till the Auto industry lobby beats this up - proposed
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 17, 2023, 09:26:09 AM
I think most in the industry is headed that way anyway.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on April 17, 2023, 09:36:03 AM
yes, but not on that aggressive timeline
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 17, 2023, 09:40:36 AM
Most are ahead of that timeline, according to their plans.  I doubt we see much resistance to it.  Buick and Caddy claim they will be all EV by 2030.

And getting to 108 mpg fleet average is pretty doable in nine years if one EV sale counts as zero.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on April 17, 2023, 09:44:54 AM
Buick and Caddy don't make many trucks

is there a plan for an electric Escalade?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on April 17, 2023, 10:13:06 AM
How much CO2 does it take to make an EV?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 17, 2023, 10:18:13 AM
How much CO2 does it take to make an EV?
I read the energy balance doesn't net neutral before about 20,000 miles, as all that goes into making an EV takes a lot of CO2 by itself relative to an ICE car.  After that point, it becomes "beneficial".
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on April 17, 2023, 10:23:39 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/KDy6MXy.png)
Source: USEPA

Anyway, 22 MPG is nonsense. DOE begs to differ. Of course, the layers upon layers of the deep swamp don't talk to each other. The below is for light-duty vehicles.

FOTW# 1177, March 15, 2021: Preliminary Data Show Average Fuel Economy of New Light-Duty Vehicles Reached a Record High of 25.7 MPG in 2020 | Department of Energy (https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/articles/fotw-1177-march-15-2021-preliminary-data-show-average-fuel-economy-new-light#:~:text=Preliminary data for EPA’s 2020 Automotive Trends Report,vehicles increased to 25.7 miles per gallon (MPG).)


**********************************

Through various research and sources, I've garnered enough information to state that it takes 20 tons (METRIC!!!) of CO2 to make an SUV battery.

It's nice to start out in a hole, eh? Make that up in 6 years, and you're close to buying a new one (or already did) or maybe needing a new battery.

This is so f'ing stupid. It infuriates me to no end.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on April 17, 2023, 10:24:10 AM
I read the energy balance doesn't net neutral before about 20,000 miles, as all that goes into making an EV takes a lot of CO2 by itself relative to an ICE car.  After that point, it becomes "beneficial".
See above.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 17, 2023, 10:31:34 AM
For illustration, the Tesla Model 3 holds an 80 kWh lithium-ion battery. CO2 emissions for manufacturing that battery would range between 2400 kg (almost two and a half metric tons) and 16,000 kg (16 metric tons).1 Just how much is one ton of CO2 (https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/how-much-ton-carbon-dioxide)? As much as a typical gas-powered car emits in about 2,500 miles of driving—just about the same weight as a great white shark! 

(The battery on a larger SUV would of course be larger.)  If the above is correct, a "typical" car emits about 4*5 metric tons of CO2 per year (12,500 miles).  If we take the midpoint on battery CO2 generation, we'd have 7 metric tons to make the battery, or around 20,000 miles or so.  Needless to say, there is a metric ton of misinformation out there.

How much CO2 is emitted by manufacturing batteries? | MIT Climate Portal (https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/how-much-co2-emitted-manufacturing-batteries#:~:text=CO2 emissions for manufacturing,kg (16 metric)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on April 17, 2023, 10:40:18 AM
For illustration, the Tesla Model 3 holds an 80 kWh lithium-ion battery. CO2 emissions for manufacturing that battery would range between 2400 kg (almost two and a half metric tons) and 16,000 kg (16 metric tons).1 Just how much is one ton of CO2 (https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/how-much-ton-carbon-dioxide)? As much as a typical gas-powered car emits in about 2,500 miles of driving—just about the same weight as a great white shark!

(The battery on a larger SUV would of course be larger.)  If the above is correct, a "typical" car emits about 4*5 metric tons of CO2 per year (12,500 miles).  If we take the midpoint on battery CO2 generation, we'd have 7 metric tons to make the battery, or around 20,000 miles or so.  Needless to say, there is a metric ton of misinformation out there.

How much CO2 is emitted by manufacturing batteries? | MIT Climate Portal (https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/how-much-co2-emitted-manufacturing-batteries#:~:text=CO2 emissions for manufacturing,kg (16 metric)
I'm very glad to be able to see through it.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 17, 2023, 10:42:57 AM
In such calculations, we're all dependent on "experts" of course, of one kind or another.  Ostensibly, battery CO2 will drop as the grid becomes more CO2 neutral.

To the extent that really happens (and I think eliminating coal would make a difference).

Vogtle 3 is now on the grid albeit at reduced output.  That's it except for V 4.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 18, 2023, 01:51:36 PM
GM expects entire EV lineup to qualify for full $7,500 tax credit (electrek.co) (https://electrek.co/2023/04/17/gm-expects-entire-ev-lineup-to-qualify-for-full-7500-tax-credit/)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 21, 2023, 07:41:40 AM
The 2023 Toyota Prius Prime Could Take 3 Weeks to Recharge (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/features/the-2023-toyota-prius-primes-battery-could-take-three-weeks-to-recharge/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AMT%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR2hnSV3ONw0qB5s0Nvj0S-xlW-sjXAzKJk9Aet8Zz9SCsOgUI0Lz3Gi2-U)

It has a solar panel on the roof for $610.  MT claims it takes many years to pay that back.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 21, 2023, 11:05:48 AM
Polestar, the electric vehicle (EV) manufacturer, unveiled its latest model, the Polestar 4, a compact SUV that does not have a traditional rear windshield.

Instead, the car has a high-definition rearview camera that provides a detailed view of the surroundings to the driver.
The move is significant, even as some cars around the world are eliminating side view mirrors in favor of cameras and screens within the car’s interior to boost aerodynamics and EV range.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: NorthernOhioBuckeye on April 21, 2023, 02:12:19 PM
Polestar, the electric vehicle (EV) manufacturer, unveiled its latest model, the Polestar 4, a compact SUV that does not have a traditional rear windshield.

Instead, the car has a high-definition rearview camera that provides a detailed view of the surroundings to the driver.
The move is significant, even as some cars around the world are eliminating side view mirrors in favor of cameras and screens within the car’s interior to boost aerodynamics and EV range.


That sounds good, until it doesn't work and then what?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 21, 2023, 02:14:06 PM
That sounds good, until it doesn't work and then what?
I figure if I'm passing everyone, I don't need a RVW.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on April 21, 2023, 02:43:58 PM
go like hell!
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 21, 2023, 04:03:13 PM
Why Electric Vehicles Won't Break the Grid - Scientific American (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-electric-vehicles-wont-break-the-grid/)

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on April 21, 2023, 04:04:37 PM
cause the grid is already broken?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on April 21, 2023, 04:09:56 PM
In California—the national leader in electric cars with more than 1 million plug-in vehicles—EV charging currently accounts for less than 1 percent of the grid’s total load during peak hours. In 2030, when the number of EVs in California is expected to surpass 5 million, charging is projected to account for less than 5 percent of that load, said Buckley, who described it as a “small amount” of added demand.

__________________________________

hah, similar to 4% of CO2 level increase
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 21, 2023, 04:11:01 PM
I think it's manageable with some intelligent planning and load demand timing issues hashed out, which likely means it'll break the grid.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 21, 2023, 04:43:08 PM
I think it's manageable with some intelligent planning and load demand timing issues hashed out, which likely means it'll break the grid.
It's California, so "intelligent planning" is certainly out of the question. That said, we really haven't had any real grid problems since the Enron days. We had a little bit during all the wildfire season a year or three back, because high winds, power lines, and ultra-drought conditions tend to lead to bad outcomes. 

The biggest problem IMHO is the "peak" problem. For EVs to really take over, there needs to be charging infrastructure for home renters and apartment-dwellers to charge overnight and balance that load. And I don't know what you can do for people who live somewhere that they only have access to on-street parking. But w/o that, they'll only be able to charge on public chargers, and aren't going to want to do that overnight. 

I.e. at my office, the parking garage that I park in has a bunch of EV chargers on the third level. EV owners who can charge at home never park there, because (from what I understand) electricity rates are higher at those chargers than at home. But those who don't have that capability have to use them, and that puts load on the grid during peak hours. Especially on hot summer days when everyone is running A/C. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on April 21, 2023, 05:01:57 PM
EVs aren't really ready for low income renter types

I doubt the $7500 tax credit is worth while to most of them

need a charging converter that can be used on the 100' extension cord that can reach the curb or the alley.

what could go wrong?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 21, 2023, 05:36:12 PM
EVs aren't really ready for low income renter types
Southern California is full of high-income renter types. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 21, 2023, 05:58:54 PM
Folks unable to recharge in their own domiciles would pay roughly 3x the rate to recharge at a public site.  Maybe the do it at work, or while shopping.  Probably they would be among the last to transition.  Poor folks who can barely afford a vehicle would be late adopters as well, perhaps having to buy used with batteries already down in capacity.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on April 21, 2023, 05:59:42 PM
it's nutz
some of those rentals at $4-5K a month or more don't have a garage as an option
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 21, 2023, 06:06:59 PM
Tesla and EV Expert Sandy Munro: Solid State Batteries are "Kiss of Death" for Gas Cars (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/sandy-munro-tesla-ev-solid-state-sodium-ion-battery/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AAMAG%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR004-T2fwd1O0Heswy7iNOfX3u0-XHgn34s1y3HLFM8tAyksa8d0pC03s4)

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on April 21, 2023, 06:08:40 PM
All the new apartment buildings here have internal parking AND recharging stations.  Most of the old ones do not.  There are some old condo buildings around us with zero parking, it wasn't a thing in 1927.  Places like NYC are mostly older apartment buildings with zero parking.  (One reason they tend not to own cars.)

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 21, 2023, 06:16:00 PM
Tesla and EV Expert Sandy Munro: Solid State Batteries are "Kiss of Death" for Gas Cars (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/sandy-munro-tesla-ev-solid-state-sodium-ion-battery/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AAMAG%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR004-T2fwd1O0Heswy7iNOfX3u0-XHgn34s1y3HLFM8tAyksa8d0pC03s4)


Eh. It's a question of economics and scale, not proving it in a lab. If the economics work out, and I'm not saying they won't since this isn't my industry, it'll happen. If they don't, it won't. 

But I've plenty nearly two decades hearing that SSD will kill off HDD, and the last decade hearing about all these wonderful things that work in the lab that are going to kill SSD. Yeah, economics and ability to scale are still the controlling factors. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on April 21, 2023, 06:17:54 PM
follow the $$$

perhaps the government's new big green deal will have some freshly printed $$$ in it to hand to battery makers and the EV industry to alter the economics
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on May 08, 2023, 10:27:30 AM
I didn't see the 60 Minutes piece, and I didn't write the below, just cribbing it from a homebrewing forum where EVs were being discussed. 

But I thought it would be interesting so I wanted to share. Could be a pretty massive place to easily and cost-effectively source lithium. 


Quote
File this under the category of "Too Good to Be True", but I'd sure like it to be. Sort of like "Free Beer," only better. The source for this came from a CBS "60 Minutes" segment broadcast last night. The statistics are what I can remember from the program and may be not entirely accurate, but if not it's because of my fading memory rather than fan-boi exaggeration.

The biggest hindrance to EVs and by extension the Green Revolution is that in some ways it isn't all that 'green'. The extraction and production of lithium, the most fundamental and sought after component for storage of ecologically clean and renewable energy, is both expensive and detrimental to the environment. It can make the strip mining of coal look good by comparison. Locations around the world where lithium is currently produced are largely unstable or unfriendly places, like China, equatorial Africa and South American jungles.

Enter the area near the California wasteland surrounding the Salton Sea, which some are now starting to call "Lithium Valley." The area has long been known for its geologically active thermal vents and upwelling of mineral rich deep hot water brine aquifers that provide an abundant source of steam for cheap and effective electrical generation. The brine is especially rich in lithium. Lots and lots of lithium.

Several small entrepreneurial companies have built and are scaling up new facilities to extract the lithium from these brines in a nearly pollution-free process. Firstly, the brine is practically 'self-extracting'. Thermal convection vents the brine from deep underground. The steam is used to power generators for the plant at a net positive (the unused 'waste electricity' then can be sold to the grid). This heat extraction cools the brine, which then passes through special membrane filtration which extracts the lithium. The 'waste water' brine is then returned to the aquifer via deep subterranean well piping in a pollution-free closed loop system. The lithium is extracted at a net-positive energy cost while the 'waste water' is returned to the deep Earth aquifer from which it came. It is estimated that this single site source is capable of producing more than half of the projected future world demand for lithium! If so, we may be witnessing the beginning of a revolution that could make the U.S. the 'Saudi Arabia of clean energy'.

Major U.S. automobile manufacturers estimate the demand for EVs world-wide will exceed 500,000 vehicles per year by 2025, half of which will be the U.S. market, which coincides with when these extraction plants should be coming online. Today the test facilities near the Salton Sea are producing highly pure lithium powder at a cost that is about one-fourth that of current world market prices, without the Third World political issues and instabilities which always end up having us exploiting the populations (as well as their countries) while enriching and enabling their tin-pot dictators. Auto makers are already buying up the future projections of these startup companies. Prices should fall as production ramps up. Proven reserves in these brines is projected to meet the increasing expected world demand for lithium for the next "three generations."

Is this truth, hyperbole or simply sensationalism? Don't know. But even if this story is only half-true fake-news, it is certainly 100% captivating and welcome good news for the future.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 10, 2023, 06:08:30 AM
The top two countries for lithium production are Chile and Australia.  They sort of left that out.

(https://i.imgur.com/myZCtur.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 10, 2023, 06:12:03 AM
And lithium is not a rare element in the earth's crust, it's pretty abundant. From 2019 ...

Lithium, the periodic table’s lightest metal, is key for clean energy | Science News (https://www.sciencenews.org/article/search-new-geologic-sources-lithium-could-power-clean-future)

 One of the oldest known Yellowstone craters, called McDermitt Caldera, filled with water, then later dried up, leaving behind a potential treasure trove of lithium-rich clay. Vancouver-based Lithium Americas Corp., which plans to begin mining operations at a site called Thacker Pass within the caldera in 2022, estimates that by 2025, the lake bed could provide as much as 25 percent of the world’s lithium.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on May 10, 2023, 08:17:13 AM
That's good news for sure.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on May 10, 2023, 08:47:17 AM
https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-clean-are-electric-cars-it-depends-4d1086d6?st=8hiw64u263xb2qx&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 12, 2023, 08:45:47 AM
GM, Ford Poised to Eat Tesla’s Lunch Over Next Four Years (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-general-motors-ford-shares-analysis-car-wars/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AMT%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR3c3LbqCQ_pb41-RHnnt496si-BZwrcsfvD75sN0UHpUOXeKXvbEPHtT2U)

Tesla has held about 70 percent of the EV market share in recent years. That is forecast to drop to a mere 11 percent over the next four years,

Maybe.  I never bought Tesla stock (unfortunately) because I didn't think he could pull it off, and he largely did, but perhaps now he's distracted and they lack new competitive products even in the pipeline while the majors are offering new stuff.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on May 12, 2023, 09:19:08 AM
GM, Ford Poised to Eat Tesla’s Lunch Over Next Four Years (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-general-motors-ford-shares-analysis-car-wars/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AMT%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR3c3LbqCQ_pb41-RHnnt496si-BZwrcsfvD75sN0UHpUOXeKXvbEPHtT2U)

Tesla has held about 70 percent of the EV market share in recent years. That is forecast to drop to a mere 11 percent over the next four years,

Maybe.  I never bought Tesla stock (unfortunately) because I didn't think he could pull it off, and he largely did, but perhaps now he's distracted and they lack new competitive products even in the pipeline while the majors are offering new stuff.

I don't think Tesla was ever going to hold market share once the big players entered the market.  I think we all know that eventually, whether it's 5 years from now or 50 years from now, EVs will dominate the market.  And Tesla wasn't ever going to be able to scale production in the manner that the large manufacturers can.

That doesn't mean that Tesla can't remain a niche player in the market and make a profit but right now, I'm not sure what they plan to do to differentiate. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 12, 2023, 09:53:09 AM
Sure, and 11% of a growing percentage is still a decent market for them.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 12, 2023, 10:27:41 AM
Volkswagen Should Go Big and Sell Us the Tiny, Revolutionary ID2 (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/volkswagen-id2-strategy-golf-gti-ev/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AAMAG%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR3W9QFAEMomhNgJig3a6G9bHrLfD9X4WN2lqDQyL0gNstw0uPScN9O_Hb0)

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on May 12, 2023, 10:36:38 AM
11% for a niche player would  be huge.  I'm just not sure what kind of differentiation they're going to go for?  If "premium" or "luxury" is going to be their brand, then they're a long way off in terms of styling, fit, and finish.  You can do almost anything and be considered premium compared to the current EVs on the market, but once the major manufacturers have a full lineup, it's going to take a lot more to be considered premium.  I still think they have a shot at it, but their first mover advantage is vanishing quickly.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Honestbuckeye on May 12, 2023, 01:46:22 PM
11% for a niche player would  be huge.  I'm just not sure what kind of differentiation they're going to go for?  If "premium" or "luxury" is going to be their brand, then they're a long way off in terms of styling, fit, and finish.  You can do almost anything and be considered premium compared to the current EVs on the market, but once the major manufacturers have a full lineup, it's going to take a lot more to be considered premium.  I still think they have a shot at it, but their first mover advantage is vanishing quickly.

This.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 12, 2023, 01:55:14 PM
Yeah, I wouldn't buy Tesla stock here, but I've said that for years.  I think the truck and van markets are going to be huge for EVs.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on May 13, 2023, 08:39:50 AM
I was talking to a friend the other day about the EV's and such. He mentioned that CA might enact a rule that semis need to be EV eventually?

What would a battery for that weigh? How much less cargo would it hold, in order to meet weight requirements?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 13, 2023, 08:53:44 AM
I was talking to a friend the other day about the EV's and such. He mentioned that CA might enact a rule that semis need to be EV eventually?

What would a battery for that weigh? How much less cargo would it hold, in order to meet weight requirements?
They have one proposed now.  Tesla has delivered a semi truck with batteries.  I've never seen independent testing of it.  Another question is how long it would take to charge and how much electricity would need to be generated to power a normal "truck stop".


PepsiCo unveils fleet of all-electric Tesla semitrucks (kcra.com)
 (https://www.kcra.com/article/pepsico-unveils-fleet-of-all-electric-tesla-semitrucks/43568339)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Gigem on May 13, 2023, 07:32:38 PM
Telsa is delivering Big Rigs starting this year.  There are claims that some can haul a typical 80K load for 500 miles, but as we all know it varies depending on conditions.  They have 300 mile models available too.  They claim that the fuel savings will pay off in under 3 years.  There is some kind of super-mega charger needed for these trucks, the batteries are north of 200 kw or something.  

There is a stipulation in the federal law that EV trucks can haul a bit more than their ICE counterparts.  Apparently the Feds will allow EV trucks to haul something like 82K lbs instead of the usual 80K lbs.  Not sure how accurate this is.  

For a lot of companies, they make the same run every day, 200-300 miles.  Deliveries from warehouses to stores, etc.  So supposedly this is a good use for these EV trucks.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Gigem on May 13, 2023, 07:37:05 PM
The other thing with Tesla is they are constantly evolving their battery.  They have new battery chemistry and manufacturing out, reducing the cost of the battery and not using expensive materials like cobalt and nickel.  

They also claim their autopilot is going to revolutionize self-driving cars.  Elon  has made numerous claims of how these cars will be FSD (full self driving) soon, although it keeps taking longer than he's anticipated.  

I bougt some of their stock way, way back (over 5 years ago).  I sold it when it increased by $200 a share, thought I did well.  I don't know how much it would be worth now but I think it would be about 10X the price.  I think I paid around $100 a share and sold at $300.  Obviously it has split several times since then.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 14, 2023, 07:49:29 AM
I've never seen an independent test on these Tesla semis.  We know EVs suffer loss of range of about 50% when towing something.  The Hummer has a battery over 100 lkw.
It's pretty big, but 10,000 poundsish.  


Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 14, 2023, 04:17:44 PM
Debunking EV Myths: Emissions Related To Batteries, Charging - (thebusinessdownload.com) (https://clean-energy.thebusinessdownload.com/debunking-ev-myths-emissions-related-to-batteries-charging/?fbclid=IwAR3iaZexXhAja7iZ8ZvOJzraIRn1l5ju2lcxokab0XuqF-cmEVp8wLsK0wM)

Maybe, one of course takes such articles with some circumspection.  This doesn't say anything about charging time and the availability of commercial charging sotes.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on May 15, 2023, 08:24:08 AM
Fixing instead of replacing: Average age of vehicles on US roads hits a record high

https://apnews.com/article/cars-older-record-age-prices-shortages-supply-6e3273208399803a402e707e1393475c (https://apnews.com/article/cars-older-record-age-prices-shortages-supply-6e3273208399803a402e707e1393475c)

The average age of a passenger vehicle on the road hit a record 12.5 years this year, according to data gathered by S&P Global Mobility.

Since the pandemic struck three years ago, the average new vehicle has rocketed 24% to nearly $48,000 as of April, according to Edmunds.com. Typical loan rates on new-car purchases have ballooned to 7%, a consequence of the Federal Reserve’s aggressive streak of interest rate hikes to fight inflation.

It’s all pushed the national average monthly auto loan payment to $729 — prohibitively high for many.


Used vehicle prices, on average, have surged even more since the pandemic hit — up 40%, to nearly $29,000. With an average loan rate having reached 11%, the typical monthly used-vehicle payment is now $563.

The average vehicle age, which has been edging up since 2019, accelerated this year by a substantial three months. And while 12.5 years is the average, Campau noted, more vehicles are staying on the road for 20 years or more, sometimes with three or four successive owners.

In such cases, the third or fourth owner is getting a much older car than they would have in the past. Nearly 122 million vehicles on the road are more than a dozen years old, Campau said. S&P predicts that the number of older vehicles will keep growing until at least 2028.


S&P predicts that U.S. new vehicle sales will reach 14.5 million this year, from about 13.8 million last year. A big reason is that the supply at dealerships is finally growing. 


Still, no one is predicting a return to pre-pandemic annual sales of around 17 million anytime soon.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 15, 2023, 08:26:30 AM
My Dad told me a car was finished at about 50,000 miles (back when).  They sort of were without good maintenance.  That isn't at all true today.  If you change the oil routinely, any car can make 100 K pretty easily and still be pretty reliable, you would probably need brakes and a tune up of course and a thing might break.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on May 15, 2023, 08:27:25 AM
this trend could slow down the adoption of EVs cornsiderably
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 15, 2023, 09:05:33 AM
I think we're in the "early adopter" phase on EVs still.  But we're moving I suspect to folks willing to buy a lower priced EV as a 'second car', the one Dad drives to work while Mom retains her SUV.  Some better funded companies will buy EV vans and pickups and likely find them good investments.  My guess is about a quarter of us think we won't EVER buy an EV no way no matter what.

And yes, the shift will be slower than many want if half the cars by 2050 are ICE Vs.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on May 15, 2023, 10:55:38 AM
EV vans and pickups and likely find them good investments

if subsidized by government tax breaks
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 15, 2023, 11:48:41 AM
I doubt a company that operates say 100 delivery vans for intercity delivery needs tax breaks for it to pay out.  The same could be true for larger service companies with F150s.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on May 15, 2023, 12:00:20 PM
you think total cost of ownership will be less for the EVs??

many accounting depts agonize over fleet costs
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on May 17, 2023, 09:14:11 AM
CO2 (R744) heat pumps in electric vehicles (EVs) are highly efficient at ambient temperature below 0°C (32°F), according to Nina Piesch, a Research Assistant from the Norwegian University of Science and Technology (NTNU).

Piesch based this comment on a research paper – “R744 heat pump solution for electric vehicles,” a survey of previous research – that she presented at the 10th International Institute of Refrigeration (IIR) conference, held in Ohrid, North Macedonia, April 27–29.

CO2 heat pumps boast a higher efficiency in electric vehicles because of their increased suction vapor density, which is a significant advantage in colder climates, she said.


https://r744.com/co2-heat-pumps-found-to-offer-high-efficiency-at-low-ambient-temperature-in-electric-vehicles/ (https://r744.com/co2-heat-pumps-found-to-offer-high-efficiency-at-low-ambient-temperature-in-electric-vehicles/)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on May 17, 2023, 09:37:59 AM
"colder climates"; didn't read
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 17, 2023, 10:04:42 AM
you think total cost of ownership will be less for the EVs??

many accounting depts agonize over fleet costs
Yes.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on May 17, 2023, 10:09:29 AM
I'm not cornvinced

I suppose they have leasing programs

Purchase price being more than gassers and then trade-in depreciation would seem to be more for EVs.
Electric charging isn't free, but even savings from gasoline is limited because of limited miles per day.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 17, 2023, 10:20:06 AM
Maybe the operative term is "will be".  I think the math is close now for an intracity van delivery vehicle.

EV vs. Gas: Which Cars Are Cheaper to Own? (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs-gas-cheaper-to-own/)

If we take the truck as a stand in for delivery van, their math shows it's cheaper to buy the EV.  If you recharge at night, you'd get a break on the rates.  And this is a 3 uear calculation.  EVs won't need new brakes for a much longer period of time, nor oil changes etc.  The worn out battery thing might be an issue.

After three years the grand totals give some insight into the question, "are EVs cheaper?" Based on fuel, maintenance costs, and depreciation over a three-year period here's what we've found for the cost-of-ownership of our subject vehicles:
Hyundai Kona: $19,385
Hyundai Kona Electric: $21,426
Ford F-150: $26,505
Ford F-150 Lightning: $23,840


Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on May 17, 2023, 10:32:38 AM
I suppose buying a 3 year old Lightning coming off a lease with low miles would be OK.  If I planned to own it for another 3 years.

How are 6-10 year old Teslas holding up for value and battery issues?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 17, 2023, 10:48:11 AM
Tesla's apparently hold up pretty well on resale value.

Tesla Model 3 Depreciation (caredge.com) (https://caredge.com/tesla/model-3/depreciation?y=2&p=51312&o=5&m=12000)

And their batteries are SAID to lose about 2% per year in range.    This is variable, and I think other battery packs run down faster.

How Long Does a Tesla Battery Last? (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/features/how-long-does-a-tesla-battery-last/)

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on May 17, 2023, 10:55:06 AM
surprising

to me anyway
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 17, 2023, 11:13:54 AM
And the calculations are ... somewhat dubious, as they note.  I'm interested in the properties of the new EV delivery vans coming out.   The stop and go nature of them would seem ideal for electric motors.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on May 17, 2023, 11:41:49 AM
I'm a bit surprised FedEx or UPS hasn't adopted
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 17, 2023, 11:43:48 AM
They are in the process, but the inventory doesn't yet exist in sufficient numbers.

Everything you need to know about Amazon’s electric delivery vans from Rivian (https://www.aboutamazon.com/news/transportation/everything-you-need-to-know-about-amazons-electric-delivery-vans-from-rivian)



Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 17, 2023, 11:59:32 AM
BrightDrop: All-Electric Delivery System | General Motors (gm.com) (https://www.gm.com/brightdrop)

This is a neat concept I think.

BrightDrop Trace

The Trace is an electrified and connected pallet developed to transport goods and services over short distances – for example, from the delivery vehicle to the customer’s front door. The Trace helps reduce package touch points, operational costs, and physical strain on delivery drivers. It also helps reduce congestion by allowing delivery companies to limit curbside package operations and on-street parking and enables better tracking of packages from the sorting center to the front door. In a pilot with FedEx in Toronto, couriers using the Trace were able to deliver 25 percent more packages per day. Couriers shared feedback that the Traces were easy to maneuver and reduced physical strain. The Trace offers electric hub motors capable of matching walking speeds, 23 total cu. ft. of space, and a payload capacity of 200 lbs.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 17, 2023, 12:05:12 PM
16 New Electric van models coming to the U.S. (2023-2026) (topelectricsuv.com) (https://topelectricsuv.com/featured/future-electric-van-models-usa/)

(https://i.imgur.com/VBKelGu.png)

This would be nice at airports I think.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 17, 2023, 01:29:36 PM
Honda Justifies Its EV Strategy, Believes Europe’s Infrastructure Won’t Be Ready Until 2040 Or 2050 | Carscoops (https://www.carscoops.com/2023/05/honda-justifies-its-ev-strategy-believes-that-infrastructure-in-europe-wont-be-well-developed-until-2040-or-2050/#Echobox=1684265903)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on May 17, 2023, 01:32:47 PM
I'm a bit surprised FedEx or UPS hasn't adopted
Well, even if they adopt, they have a lot of rolling stock already in their fleet. Much of it on NG and I found an article about adding renewable NG as an option (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ups-environment-natural-gas/ups-hits-the-gas-on-greener-delivery-truck-fleet-idUSKBN1WO1LX) which emits CO2 but is part of the natural carbon cycle (unlike fossil fuels) so shouldn't add NET CO2 to the environment. They're not just going to throw away the [working] old trucks and replace them en masse. So adoption would likely be slow burn as the older trucks age out. 

The FedEx/UPS fleets aren't like rental car fleets or corporate car fleets where they want to replace everything on a 2-3 year cycle. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on May 17, 2023, 02:21:30 PM
we're trying to save the planet here
some sacrifices need to be made

I'd guess UPS or FedEx could get some good marketing from simply saying they are going to EVs as they change out the fleet.
They wouldn't need to give real figures as to how many or how long it might take
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 17, 2023, 03:06:45 PM
A lot of this is indeed marketing and PR, maybe most of it, no doubt.  Delivery companies also need the charging infrastructure to be installed at their base.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 17, 2023, 03:17:18 PM
How Much Does It Cost to Charge a Tesla? (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/features/how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-a-tesla/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AMT%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR1QBw1gedK9tnw2xD6deQ43nPKuBv9O5MjXPc7iY0fSBG1NqFwX-t1gIZg)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 17, 2023, 03:47:30 PM
The Erosion of Tesla's EV Market Share Is Happening Now (jalopnik.com) (https://jalopnik.com/the-erosion-of-teslas-ev-market-share-is-happening-now-1850440656?utm_campaign=Jalopnik&utm_content=1684255488&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR0LnQ2Xr848hciynNfcUqMZas05oiZRP79CE1FlEYumtKIaagnVDgGtgY0)

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on May 17, 2023, 04:01:09 PM
no surprise
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on May 17, 2023, 04:06:50 PM
we're trying to save the planet here
some sacrifices need to be made
The best thing anyone can do to reduce their carbon footprint is simple: die. The second best thing: don't have kids (https://www.vhemt.org/). 

But if you want to stay alive or operate a company, you have to look at the economics. And a transition to an EV fleet may be economical, whereas a wholesale short-term replacement to an EV fleet will not be, and in the grand scheme of things, will only make a tiny at most difference to anything. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on May 17, 2023, 04:08:31 PM
well, THAT's a shitty attitude! ;)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: NorthernOhioBuckeye on May 18, 2023, 08:18:30 AM
we're trying to save the planet here
some sacrifices need to be made

I'd guess UPS or FedEx could get some good marketing from simply saying they are going to EVs as they change out the fleet.
They wouldn't need to give real figures as to how many or how long it might take
:57:

I got a good laugh out of that one. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 18, 2023, 08:30:39 AM
We all know larger companies spend money on PR.  They can buy "a few" EV vans even if the equation goesn't work and publicize it as how they are "stewards" of blah blah.  So, maybe they buy 100 such vans, it gets in the news, but they have 10,000 ICE vans (and will for years).  There also is "reverse PR" of course, I've seen memes of an ICE van labeled a TESLA service vehicle, and I'm sure they exist today as well.

The sole reason I'd buy an EV would be my calculation it's the best vehicle for us, period.  That includes tax credits of course. a thing when will mostly benefit people of means who could buy one anyway.  Regular folks will be buying used or leasing ICE vehicles until the equation really is unbalanced.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 19, 2023, 12:12:38 PM
2024 Chevy Silverado EV's EPA-Estimated Range Rises to 450 Miles (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a43941387/2024-chevy-silverado-electric-truck-range-450-miles/?src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social-media&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&fbclid=IwAR0uyHg_0CE_ET29iEVsE-JaZzUBkP88zLk0sYzHfuUx-s7Xe4FDXAkRWKM)

Pricing for the fleet-oriented 2024 Silverado EV Work Truck hasn't been made official. However, Chevy is currently taking orders with refundable $100 reservations on its consumer site, which also lists the WT's starting price at $41,595.

Imagine a delivery van using that chassis.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on May 20, 2023, 09:59:34 AM
apparently, GM can't imagine it
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 20, 2023, 10:05:54 AM
GM has those Bright Drop vans using the same Ultium batteries, but different chassis.  I'm pretty sure they will come out with vans based on the truck chassis fairly soon, same with Ford etc.  If EV vans end up costing around $50 K I think they will be a hit.  They could be $40 K because they'd be stripped down relative to work trucks, maybe.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 20, 2023, 10:19:16 AM
Tested: 2023 Chevrolet Bolt vs. 2023 Volkswagen Jetta Sport (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison-test/a43826595/2023-chevrolet-bolt-ev-vs-2023-volkswagen-jetta-sport-compared/)

We humans aren't keen on being told how to live our lives. We like to do what we want when we want. And that's what the automobile has provided since its early days: the ability to travel freely. Like so many car buyers, though, we feel the pressure to at least consider the purchase of a tailpipe-free automobile. Within the next decade, shoppers looking to buy a new or secondhand car will face quite possibly the toughest automotive choice of their lives: whether to go internal combustion or electric.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 21, 2023, 10:03:19 AM
Ford's capital markets day seeks to convince Wall Street of EV plans (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2023/05/21/ford-capital-markets-convince-wall-street-skeptics.html)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 22, 2023, 10:00:00 AM
The Cadillac Escalade IQ Will Be a Gigantic Electric SUV (roadandtrack.com) (https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a43960660/the-cadillac-escalade-iq-will-be-a-gigantic-electric-suv/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social-media&utm_campaign=socialflowR%26T&fbclid=IwAR1dGpsMJfsJm-SLGJui2Kg8AKx0v6aAyRFYAqiu-Q8Gpp90vBgj-v0fuC4)

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 24, 2023, 05:32:58 PM
Hyundai XCIENT Class 8 Truck Gives Hydrogen a Place to Shine (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a43827451/hyundai-xcient-class-8-fuel-cell-semi-truck-drive/?src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social-media&fbclid=IwAR2URIE-Nn8IyNfSyK1Mxgs-U2A8ptjAV9RdwzZzNVI9APT93ur45objsw0)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on May 26, 2023, 02:15:06 PM
Tested: 2023 Cadillac Lyriq AWD Pumps Out More Electrons (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a43893925/2023-cadillac-lyriq-600e4-awd-by-the-numbers/?utm_medium=social-media&src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR2RuUfnIxySYwYcfc3Y77qCpfG5GhnjI20Sn6RDgE9P_cFzCl_bjXa2hkg)

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on June 02, 2023, 08:38:46 AM
U.S.-Spec 2025 VW ID.Buzz Hits Nostalgia Points but Is So Modern (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a44067694/2025-vw-id-buzz-us-spec-revealed/?utm_medium=social-media&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&src=socialflowFBCAD&fbclid=IwAR2Z4m75JBW-pd58Rw3amLlkTHpeqcLaqnCw0oFmv_toghqhrmUXq1UFjVE)

(https://i.imgur.com/Ry48vZF.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on June 04, 2023, 12:52:51 PM
Not So “Green” Technology: The Complicated Legacy of Rare Earth Mining (harvard.edu) (https://hir.harvard.edu/not-so-green-technology-the-complicated-legacy-of-rare-earth-mining/)

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on June 04, 2023, 12:54:57 PM
Why using rare metals to clean up the planet is no cheap fix | New Scientist (https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24933190-400-why-using-rare-metals-to-clean-up-the-planet-is-no-cheap-fix/)

He is neither a climate sceptic nor a fan of inaction. But as the world moves to adopt a target of net-zero carbon emissions (https://www.newscientist.com/article/2222386-could-your-home-be-net-zero-carbon-the-radical-plan-to-make-it-happen/) by 2050, Pitron worries about the costs. The figures in his book The Rare Metals War are stark. Changing the energy model means doubling the production of rare metals about every 15 years, mostly to satisfy demand for non-ferrous magnets and lithium-ion batteries. “At this rate,” writes Pitron, “over the next 30 years we… will need to mine more mineral ores than humans have extracted over the last 70,000 years.”
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on June 05, 2023, 01:19:50 PM
EVs Tested: 2023 Cadillac Lyriq vs. 2023 Genesis Electrified GV70 (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a44068042/2023-cadillac-lyriq-vs-2023-genesis-electrified-gv70-by-the-numbers/?utm_medium=social-media&src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&fbclid=IwAR04LaZY1-PJwC0M2w9V3NHi3L4ZLaZiqQVXVCViipnt-ke6D0bcQr2_5Qc)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on June 06, 2023, 11:26:47 AM
2023 Ford F-150 Lightning XLT Yearlong Test: Off to a Bumpy Start with "RangeLiar" (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2023-ford-f-150-lightning-xlt-yearlong-review-arrival-range-anxiety/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AMT%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR2iJJQtcs_JpoElUd8RlazBUkTusKd-jig1M8ihb5UE2buCJl_pG1L_TFQ)

Not a good look at all...

Nickname: "RangeLiar"

For the first few weeks I made a point of noting the range estimation before various trips and then noting the range remaining at the end of the trip. Every trip consumed more miles of estimated range than miles traveled. Remember when you screwed up as a kid, deflected blame, and your parents told you, "It's not what you did, it's lying about it that disappointed us"? I'm that parent here, and in this age of machine learning and artificial intelligence, I'm disappointed that Ford is either unable or unwilling to give me the bad news about how far this truck will actually travel on a charge—especially when destinations are entered into the native navigation system. And yes, it was late winter, and we were running some heat (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/road-tripping-in-our-long-term-electric-test-cars/). But we're also operating 20 miles from Ford's engineering headquarters, so this climate should be no surprise to the truck's computers. When pressed on the subject, Ford admitted programming the system to present EPA best-case range when charging via Level 2 chargers like we've got at home and the office, but an upcoming Intelligent Range feature coming via over-the-air update (https://www.motortrend.com/news/ford-f-150-lightning-ota-tracker-software-update-electric-pickup-truck/) might soon change this.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on June 07, 2023, 08:25:20 AM
2025 Volvo EX30 Is a Small SUV That Exemplifies the EV Ethos (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a44099670/2025-volvo-ex30-revealed/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social-media&src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&fbclid=IwAR01sTjIQSCGkvDDT-NOK1B3lFtaFvpnEdpmiDa_Ep8PRu3WUFj5vOZ2TuQ)



Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on June 07, 2023, 08:55:59 AM
That's pretty ugly.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on June 07, 2023, 09:11:46 AM
Move to electric vehicles could save nearly 90,000 lives in US by 2050, study says

By Jen Christensen, CNN


If gas guzzlers disappeared from US car lots by 2035 and were replaced by zero-emissions vehicles – essentially, electric cars, trucks and SUVs – the nation would see 89,300 fewer premature deaths by 2050, according to a new report from the American Lung Association. But the country would also have to move more toward clean noncombustion electricity – like wind, solar, hydro, geothermal and nuclear – to see the full health benefit.

The report, published Wednesday, says that people in the US would have 2.2 million fewer asthma attacks and 10.7 million fewer lost workdays, and the country would net $978 billion in public health benefits with the move to cleaner vehicles and a cleaner power supply.

The “Driving to Clean Air: Health Benefits of Zero-Emission Cars and Electricity” report uses an analysis of data from the association’s March 2022 report “Zeroing in on Healthy Air.”

Transportation is the leading source of air pollution in the US and the largest creator of carbon pollution that drives the climate crisis, the US Environmental Protection Agency has found. And exposure to any kind of pollution hurts our health: Studies show that it significantly raises the risk of premature death or chronic conditions like asthma, heart problems and even depression and Alzheimer’s.

About 120 million people in the US live in areas with unhealthy air, according to an American Lung Association report published this year.

Low-income communities and communities of color, regardless of income, are disproportionately affected by this health threat. These communities often live closer to major sources of air pollution like major highways and power plants, studies show.

“This transition to zero-emission technologies is critical as a whole but especially critical in making sure that we’re targeting policies and investments and incentive programs so that all communities can take advantage of these health benefits and more healthier transportation choices,” Barrett said.

The switch to zero-emission vehicles would mean a massive change for the US. Although the number of people who drive them is growing, just 4.6% of cars sold in the US in 2021 were electric, according to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics.

The switch would require an investment up-front, says Dr. Jason West, who studies pollution research and its impact on public health, but the benefits may well exceed the costs of those actions in the first place.

“There are huge health benefits to be gained by switching broadly to electric vehicles,” said West, a professor in the Department of Environmental Sciences and Engineering at the Gillings School of Global Public Health at the University of North Carolina, who was not involved with the new report. “The other part of the report says that this positive health result comes when it is coupled with noncombustion electricity generation. So that’s an important part, too. It’s not just switching to electric vehicles but providing the extra electricity needed for those electric vehicles. So that would be renewables, wind and solar or possibly nuclear.”

https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/06/health/electric-vehicles-save-nearly-90-000-lives/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/06/health/electric-vehicles-save-nearly-90-000-lives/index.html)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on June 08, 2023, 11:45:15 AM
Visualising the growth of the electric car industry

Every three in 20 cars sold worldwide in 2022 were electric, with more than half of them sold in China alone.

(https://scontent.ffod1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/347396956_2044934439192498_3186419486510753065_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=7VB0nhe2YvEAX9Qw42u&_nc_ht=scontent.ffod1-1.fna&oh=00_AfCxdWMXsMZ_Jcdhe5qFK12g-rn5agN2BJL6m08Qh72rkw&oe=6487BEE5)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on June 09, 2023, 05:37:15 PM
What Tesla EV charging deals with Ford, GM mean for the industry (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2023/06/09/tesla-ford-gm-ev-charging-partnerships.html)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on June 13, 2023, 08:22:06 AM
Texas Governor Greg Abbott signed a legislative proposal into law on May 13 that will make all electric vehicle (EV) owners in the state responsible for paying a $200 annual fee, The Dallas Morning News reported. 

The law, which will take effect on Sept. 1, will also require new electric vehicle (EV) owners to pay a one-time fee of $400 to register their cars in addition to the $200 yearly toll.

The aim of the new law is to recuperate some of the tax money the state has lost through EV owners not purchasing pricey gasoline.

For example, since a Tesla doesn’t run on gas, its owner won’t pay the typical taxes that the owner of a gas-fueled car does when stopping at the pump.

Texas uses these fees for road and highway repairs and sometimes for school improvement.

The state already has over 200,000 EVs on the road, with more than 30,000 EVs added this year, meaning the bill will garner around $38 million per year for the state’s highway repair fund, according to The Dallas Morning News.

EVs are beneficial to the planet and to consumers because they slash gas bills, reduce air and noise pollution, and produce less planet-overheating gas pollution. Some fear this new bill will disincentivize Texas residents from purchasing EVs. 

UT-Austin transportation engineering professor Kara Kockelman told KVUE that the bill is indicative of Texas’ full support for the oil and gas industry.

“Texas is really behind the curve on trying to do the right thing by the environment. And so, that’s embarrassing, I think, for all of us,” she said.

Consumer Reports suggested that the price of Abbott’s new annual fee of $200 is too high. The company found that a fee of $71 would be the “maximum justifiable EV fee” in Texas.

Consumer Reports policy analyst Dylan Jaff also said that the bill does not solve the gap in funding road work.

“Consumers should not be punished for choosing a cleaner, greener car that saves them money on fuel and maintenance,” he said in a release. “The fees proposed in this bill will establish an inequitable fee scale for EV owners and will not provide a viable solution to the long-standing issue of road funding revenue.”

MYEV.com listed at least 18 U.S. states other than Texas that charge EV owners annual fees, ranging from $50 to $200 per year. If your state is considering charging EV owners fees, contact your local representatives and let your voice be heard.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on June 15, 2023, 08:08:03 AM
How heavy electric vehicles could pose safety risk for other drivers (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/how-heavy-electric-vehicles-could-pose-safety-risk-for-other-drivers/ar-AA1cvzZr)


Saw this on the local news last night.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on June 15, 2023, 09:00:05 AM
Texas Governor Greg Abbott signed a legislative proposal into law on May 13 that will make all electric vehicle (EV) owners in the state responsible for paying a $200 annual fee, The Dallas Morning News reported. 

The law, which will take effect on Sept. 1, will also require new electric vehicle (EV) owners to pay a one-time fee of $400 to register their cars in addition to the $200 yearly toll.

The aim of the new law is to recuperate some of the tax money the state has lost through EV owners not purchasing pricey gasoline.

For example, since a Tesla doesn’t run on gas, its owner won’t pay the typical taxes that the owner of a gas-fueled car does when stopping at the pump.

Texas uses these fees for road and highway repairs and sometimes for school improvement.

The state already has over 200,000 EVs on the road, with more than 30,000 EVs added this year, meaning the bill will garner around $38 million per year for the state’s highway repair fund, according to The Dallas Morning News.

EVs are beneficial to the planet and to consumers because they slash gas bills, reduce air and noise pollution, and produce less planet-overheating gas pollution. Some fear this new bill will disincentivize Texas residents from purchasing EVs.

UT-Austin transportation engineering professor Kara Kockelman told KVUE that the bill is indicative of Texas’ full support for the oil and gas industry.

“Texas is really behind the curve on trying to do the right thing by the environment. And so, that’s embarrassing, I think, for all of us,” she said.


Consumer Reports suggested that the price of Abbott’s new annual fee of $200 is too high. The company found that a fee of $71 would be the “maximum justifiable EV fee” in Texas.

Consumer Reports policy analyst Dylan Jaff also said that the bill does not solve the gap in funding road work.

“Consumers should not be punished for choosing a cleaner, greener car that saves them money on fuel and maintenance,” he said in a release. “The fees proposed in this bill will establish an inequitable fee scale for EV owners and will not provide a viable solution to the long-standing issue of road funding revenue.”

MYEV.com listed at least 18 U.S. states other than Texas that charge EV owners annual fees, ranging from $50 to $200 per year. If your state is considering charging EV owners fees, contact your local representatives and let your voice be heard.


I mean, Texas leads all US states in renewable energy generation due to aggressive buildouts in wind and solar, but let's ignore all that while we bash O&G.

10 States That Produce the Most Renewable Energy | Best States | U.S. News (usnews.com)

 (https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/slideshows/these-states-use-the-most-renewable-energy)Back to the point, though, Texans pay $.20/gallon in taxes and the majority of that goes to road maintenance.  So some kind of tax on EVs that are using the same road infrastucture makes sense.  I'm not sure what the right amount is, but it's certainly more than zero$.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on June 15, 2023, 09:04:51 AM
Back to the point, though, Texans pay $.20/gallon in taxes and the majority of that goes to road maintenance.  So some kind of tax on EVs that are using the same road infrastucture makes sense.  I'm not sure what the right amount is, but it's certainly more than zero$.


So, a penny per mile then, if you get 20 miles/gallon.

The EV tax should then be somewhere between $100 and $300.

The $200 is fine.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on June 15, 2023, 09:10:17 AM
This has to happen at some point, or we cease to have a "user tax" on road expenses.

Maybe a state could add say a $7500 tax on EVs when purchased.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on June 15, 2023, 09:15:49 AM
the tax man is crafty
he will get his and then some
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on June 15, 2023, 09:21:08 AM
The Beatles - Taxman - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMdcE8jdz70)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on June 16, 2023, 12:12:09 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/smGOZtd.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on June 17, 2023, 08:31:28 AM
Converting gas-powered cars to EVs is a booming business (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2023/06/16/converting-gas-powered-cars-to-evs-is-a-booming-business.html)

If I owned an older "restomod" something, I'd consider this as an option.  It would be car rarely driven more than 50 miles.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on June 17, 2023, 08:40:27 AM
glad I read the article.  I was going to blurt out something negative....

1976 BMW 2002 or 1976 Porsche 914 would be perfect for that conversion

small light with small quiet engines

I immediately thought 1970 Chevelle SS with the 460 or big block Mustang or challenger



those could be done, but would lose the character of the sound of the cammed big block, the smell of the burnt gasoline and the use of the clutch and 4-speed tranny
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on June 17, 2023, 08:51:08 AM
I agree, I wouldn't convert something with a burly noisy 8 cylinder at all.

Maybe a 914 or 924 or something, probably not an MG or Austin Healy though.  If I had an old Chevy S10 maybe, but it wouldn't  be worth the cost.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on June 17, 2023, 08:52:31 AM
perhaps I'll convert my golf cart some day

I doubt it
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on June 17, 2023, 09:13:27 AM
I'd consider a golf cart depending on price, if your gas engine gives up.  No oil chainges.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on June 17, 2023, 09:27:26 AM
I change oil once a year in the spring.  One quart, no filter

seems crazy that a quart of oil is over $7

it sips gasoline - I play maybe 80 rounds a season, 10 - 12 gallons

course charges $55/season to charge an electric
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on June 17, 2023, 09:38:06 AM
Our Evolution cart is 2.5 years old and it's showing some signs of battery wear.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on June 17, 2023, 09:41:43 AM
my yamaha is a 2002

never been in the shop

purrs like a kitten

I've replaced the battery twice
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on June 17, 2023, 09:49:11 AM
my yamaha is a 2002

never been in the shop

purrs like a kitten

I've replaced the battery twice

Golf is best played walking. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on June 17, 2023, 10:02:12 AM
Golf is best played walking.
On an executive course in California.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on June 17, 2023, 10:14:54 AM
Golf is best played walking.
lugging the beer is a chore
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on June 17, 2023, 10:55:02 AM
On an executive course in California.
I walk full length courses too. 

Unfortunately today will be in a cart. The course design has some VERY long green-to-tee distances as it's built through a neighborhood, has to go under streets, etc. The routing sucks. 

lugging the beer is a chore

Only if you carry. With a push-cart it's not bad at all. I often have a couple waters and gatorades, and have a hidden cooler that fits in a side pocket in the bag where I can carry a six-pack of cans. 

I'm not lazy enough yet to get a motorized cart that follows me around though... Or maybe I'm just too cheap. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on June 17, 2023, 11:09:16 AM
I have an old pull cart from the 90s for when the course is too wet and carts aren't allowed
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on June 27, 2023, 10:10:47 PM
Dodge fans have been patiently awaiting the big reveal of the next generation of muscle cars that will take up the mantle since the 2023 Charger and Challenger will be the final versions to come equipped with a V8 engine before switching over to electric.

On Wednesday, August 17th 2022 during Dodge’s Speed Week, they finally unveiled the long-awaited fully-electric muscle car concept, the Dodge Charger Daytona SRT that is often being likened to that of a Hellcat. One of them being able to match it in terms of noise with an “exhaust” that is able to reach 126 decibels, the same volume of a supercharged Hellcat V8 engine.


Named the “fratzonic chambered exhaust”, Dodge’s simulated revving is generated through an amplifier and tuning chamber found near the rear end of the Charger.

Listen to how the EV muscle car sounds below:


https://www.powernationtv.com/post/dodge-claims-its-electric-charger-concepts-exhaust-is-as-loud-as-a-hellcats?fbclid=IwAR0tfIbv8RZfOI_WFyV-pLGNivzND-D56UnRqhLo09jr8_dXKvu0IWn4e9k (https://www.powernationtv.com/post/dodge-claims-its-electric-charger-concepts-exhaust-is-as-loud-as-a-hellcats?fbclid=IwAR0tfIbv8RZfOI_WFyV-pLGNivzND-D56UnRqhLo09jr8_dXKvu0IWn4e9k)

According to Dodge spokesperson David Elshoff, the noise is not sampled or based on sounds from the EV Charger’s motors. Instead it is generated to mimic the “cadence from a Hemi V8.” He also adds that it generates “screams” at higher revs, which could be the reason why Dodge named its 800-volt electric drivetrain, “Banshee.” The sound is then adjusted via a transducer depending on the Charger’s throttle position, speed, load, etc., that is then pushed through the amplifier and out of the exhaust to result in the appropriate sound.

The end result resembles something of a robotic growling panther, which is more noise than some of its current EV competitors. All that is left now is to sit back and watch how muscle car enthusiasts and Dodge fans respond to it.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on June 28, 2023, 07:03:55 AM
The marketing of the term "Hemi" has been effective.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on June 28, 2023, 08:33:10 AM
there's GOT to be something hemispherical about the electric motor in that thing
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on June 30, 2023, 11:45:39 AM
FACT OF THE DAY:

Global sales of electric vehicles (EVs) in 2020 increased by 39% year on year to 3.1 million units.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 01, 2023, 05:40:49 AM
An example of lousy reporting in my opinion, from Fox News:

Overall, the average cost of an EV was $64,338, while the average cost of a compact gas-powered car was $26,101 as of last year, according to Kelley Blue Book. In addition, the U.S. Department of Energy reported that the average range of model year 2021 gasoline vehicles was 403 miles, compared to the median 234-mile range of model year 2021 EVs.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on July 01, 2023, 06:17:02 PM
The marketing of the term "Hemi" has been effective.
(https://scontent.ffod1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/357086155_644170937761720_1315017937139504255_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=CPxJivM-tiEAX8ueIjm&_nc_ht=scontent.ffod1-1.fna&oh=00_AfAdnUJ83Ii2CKNL4QI5w9F9vb4MjucVYxxV2KkOT7nM2w&oe=64A507E8)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Honestbuckeye on July 01, 2023, 06:40:32 PM
https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/worlds-first-fully-electric-flying-car-approved-by-faa-accepting-preorders



Flying vehicle.   
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on July 01, 2023, 07:02:40 PM
Husker engineers earn grant to protect military bases against EV-based attacks

DOD PROJECT TO ADDRESS SPECIFIC THREATS POSED BY ELECTRIC VEHICLES

https://news.unl.edu/newsrooms/today/article/husker-engineers-earn-grant-to-protect-military-bases-against-ev-based/ (https://news.unl.edu/newsrooms/today/article/husker-engineers-earn-grant-to-protect-military-bases-against-ev-based/)

With the aid of $3.6 million in funding from the U.S. Army’s Engineer Research and Development Center, research teams at Nebraska and Auburn University are working to safeguard the entry points of military bases against the specific threats posed by hostile-driven EVs.

“EVs are a different kind of an animal compared to gasoline vehicles,” said Stolle, assistant director of the Nebraska-housed Midwest Roadside Safety Facility and a research assistant professor of mechanical and materials engineering.

For starters, an EV battery so outweighs the engine of a gas-powered vehicle that the EV itself will often carry hundreds or even thousands of extra pounds in total. An EV carries that weight differently, too, with a center of gravity lower than its conventional counterpart. Despite the added heft, an electric motor also produces torque almost immediately after foot meets pedal, lending it a zero-to-60 acceleration that puts most internal combustion engines to shame.

The Nebraska team will be accounting for each of those factors, plus others, in refining barriers that ring the perimeters of U.S. military bases and protect the gated checkpoints used by friendly vehicles. Stolle said those passive barriers — whose designs can range from guardrails to post-like bollards — must be engineered to withstand high-speed ramming from EVs, which make up a growing percentage of the world’s automotive fleet.

“While they have many similarities to traditional vehicle counterparts, they’re not the same, and they will change the way that we design roadside hardware,” said Stolle, whose Nebraska team will receive $2.2 million of the funding over four years. “And it is beneficial for all of us to be prepared for a transition of any volume of our vehicle fleet toward electrification, because it means that we’re going to have to design to accommodate a broader swath of possibilities.

“The current study is a bedrock establishment of all the parameters necessary to ensure that (military) bases are able to handle vehicles of all types, whether gasoline or electric or even new technologies which have yet to be created.”

To devise and test their designs, the team — which includes Ronald Faller, research professor and director of the Midwest Roadside Safety Facility; Joshua Steelman, associate professor; and others — will employ a combination of the digital and the tangible. The former will include the most sophisticated modeling and simulations of classical mechanics on the planet. Some of those in-house computer simulations can model general vehicular dynamics, especially the ways that the forces acting on any one component will influence the behavior of another.

The engineers are also receiving support from Ansys, whose software can simulate the energy transfer of a collision by effectively isolating certain variables, then integrating the results into larger models on a millisecond-by-millisecond basis. Another donation, from Caresoft Global, will provide the team with comprehensive modeling specific to EVs.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on July 04, 2023, 11:39:08 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jul/04/toyota-claims-battery-breakthrough-electric-cars
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: longhorn320 on July 04, 2023, 12:23:40 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jul/04/toyota-claims-battery-breakthrough-electric-cars
The part about changing in 10 minutes is hard to believe but if it proves true would be a major break through
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 04, 2023, 07:35:09 PM
Yes to both
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on July 10, 2023, 08:24:05 PM
https://jalopnik.com/no-one-in-the-us-really-wants-to-buy-electric-vehicles-1850622254
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on July 10, 2023, 09:09:53 PM
Lamborghini CEO Stephan Winkelmann told the German newspaper Welt that it has sold its remaining production run of fully gas-powered models and will now focus on electrification.

The brand’s future lineup will include plug-in hybrid versions of its Aventador and Huracan supercars and a plug-in hybrid Urus SUV. Lamborghini plans to launch its first all-electric vehicle later this decade.

The decision to embrace electrification was driven by tightening emissions regulations. The company aims to maintain high-performance standards while reducing its carbon footprint. The first plug-in hybrid model is expected to be released in late 2023.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 11, 2023, 07:04:40 AM
https://jalopnik.com/no-one-in-the-us-really-wants-to-buy-electric-vehicles-1850622254
The title is obviously misleading, but the point is valid.  Demand is no longer greater than supply of EVs, but interest is increasing as is sales.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on July 11, 2023, 08:39:53 AM
Cox says that EV sales will break the 1 million mark for the first time in 2023, with sales reportedly accounting for about 6.5 percent of the entire auto market in the U.S. so far.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: highVOLtage on July 11, 2023, 10:53:56 AM
https://twitter.com/amuse/status/1678623318927179776
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 13, 2023, 04:08:44 PM
Battery Troubles for Our Ford F-150 Lightning Lariat (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2022-ford-f-150-lightning-lariat-yearlong-review-update-6-battery-issue?slide=6)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: highVOLtage on July 18, 2023, 08:50:01 PM
"The large amount of carbon emissions associated with producing—and even charging—electric vehicles means the cars might not even help the environment, according to a new report.

While electric vehicles do not produce tailpipe emissions, the materials that must be mined, processed, and refined to build the cars produce considerably more carbon dioxide than those used to build their gas-powered counterparts. In many cases, meanwhile, the power used to charge electric vehicles comes from natural gas and coal.


Those emissions, Manhattan Institute senior fellow Mark Mills argues in a Wednesday report, "substantially offset reductions from avoiding gasoline." Additionally, driving an electric vehicle instead of a gas-powered one "could even lead to a net increase in emissions."

https://twitter.com/ComfortablySmug/status/1679899352003751936?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on July 18, 2023, 09:21:36 PM
perhaps EV chargers should only be installed on the green grid?

or at least, no coal plant generation
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on July 18, 2023, 09:41:46 PM
When NASA gives up on a project, it’s time for others to take notice.

The agency is best known for space travel. But it funds and undertakes research and development for aeronautics, including commercial aviation. NASA, after all, is the acronym for National Aeronautics and Space Administration. Boeing, and Airbus, benefitted from NASA research in the past. NASA currently is working with Boeing on the transonic truss brace wing concept (TTBW) that could redefine how airplanes are designed and look as early as the end of this decade.

So, what has NASA abandoned? Late last month, the agency pulled the plug on the X-57 electric airplane before the first flight. NASA concluded that the electric and battery technology for the X-57, a small airplane, is too dangerous. NASA wouldn’t even authorize test flights.

It’s worth noting that LNA’s Bjorn Fehrm, an aerospace engineer, called bullshit on electric airplanes in his first of a series of articles way back on June 30, 2017. Billions of dollars have funded some 200 companies pursuing electric airplanes. This is money that could have been invested in expanding production of Sustainable Aviation Fuel, the leading alternative of alternative energy projects.

The current, continued frenzy over alternative energy vehicles is like the 1980s dot com frenzy. And just as the dot com boom went bust, the day is coming soon when the alternative energy book will go bust, too.


Speaking of NASA, and Boeing
Historically, when NASA cooperates with a company, the technology is owned by NASA and available to any company that wants it.

But the relationship between Boeing and NASA for the TTBW is different. Way back in May we were told that in this case, Boeing will retain the Intellectual Property rights to the TTBW. The NASA contract, for $425m, was a way to dodge the old government subsidy allegations that became part of the 17-year complaints filed with the World Trade Organization by the European Union against Boeing. Previous NASA relationships were cited among the complaints filed by the EU.

The case was filed in response to the complaint filed by the US government over illegal subsidies for Airbus. The WTO found both sides violated WTO rules. The US came out on top, so to speak. The WTO authorized higher “fines” for the US to impose on Europe was authorized to impose on the US. When Joe Biden became president, the US and EU agreed to suspend the tariffs in favor of deciding what to do about Chinese government subsidies for its commercial aviation industry.

During one of the many pre-Paris Air Show press briefings I attended, confirmation came that the NASA deal with Boeing allows Boeing to retain the IP for the TTBW.

TTBW and engines
The TTBW is a prime target for the new CFM RISE Open Fan engine. CFM targets 2035 as its entry-into-service date. This happens to coincide with the “mid-next decade” target Boeing CEO David Calhoun identified for introducing a new airplane.

However, although GE (one of CFM’s partners) is convinced it’s solved all the technical problems for the RISE engine and that it will be a step-change in reducing fuel burn and emissions, plenty of skeptics remain.

During GE’s pre-Paris Air Show media briefing, and during a CEO roundtable at the show, GE was asked what’s Plan B if for whatever reason the Open Fan concept doesn’t go forward. Officials ducked the question directly, maintaining the solution is the RISE. But LNA is convinced there is a Plan B, that involves the Clean Sky work that CFM partner SAFRAN has done around geared turbofan engines.

LNA also learned that Boeing also has a Plan B (and a Plan C). The TTBW could initially emerge with conventional engines and be retrofitted later with the Open Fan design. Conceivably, this could allow Boeing to advance the introduction of the TTBW a few years earlier than publicly discussed.

At a Boeing-sponsored event before the air show, I asked Chris Raymond, Boeing’s top environmental guru, if putting a conventional engine on the TTBW will be enough to bring about step-change economic and emissions improvements, even if short of the Open Fan goal. Raymond said he thought it was possible.

At the GE pre-Paris briefing, I posed the same question to Arjan Hegeman, GM of the Advanced Technology group. He, too, said it was possible.

In both instances, the questions were posed on the sidelines of the event (I don’t like letting my peers hear me ask questions like these.)

The TTBW will be the replacement for the Boeing 737.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 19, 2023, 08:31:30 AM
Driverless transit system set to debut in Cobb County | Urbanize Atlanta (https://atlanta.urbanize.city/post/cobb-county-hopper-driverless-transit-system-set-debut)

(https://i.imgur.com/VRuCaFU.png)

This is a small scale thing, really an experiment, but I think MIGHT be more broadly useful if the busses are modern and clean and go where folks want to go reasonably quickly.  You can equip them so they trip lights ahead of them to be green all the time.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on July 19, 2023, 08:33:39 AM
are they equipped with a manual emergency brake?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 19, 2023, 08:47:18 AM
are they equipped with a manual emergency brake?
I have not seen anything about specs on them.  MARTA here is wanting to extend the street car line at great expense, I think these busses would be a better option.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on July 19, 2023, 08:48:59 AM
I agree
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 19, 2023, 08:53:03 AM
A lot of folks seem enamored with light rail and streetcars, I'm not.  Building those out fixes the route basically forever.  If you go with busses, you can change routes as needed, easily.  In time, one can build bus only lanes potentially, like bike lanes, and busses get faster.  Busses can be electric now, so emissions are not at issue.

They are building a "bus rapid transit line" here, one of them.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on July 21, 2023, 08:37:32 AM
Right-to-repair laws are starting to get some traction, giving customers more rights to fix the products they buy. But just because you can fix something doesn't mean that it will be easy or affordable. Repairing your own car has become less and less common over the years, but at least local mechanics can come to the rescue... usually. When it comes to Tesla electric vehicles, though, some insurance companies are reportedly deciding that even low-mileage vehicles aren't worth the hassle.

Owners of certain automotive brands know that expensive repair bills come with the territory. But that doesn't mean insurance companies want to play that game, and some of them are increasingly deciding to write off low-mileage Tesla electric vehicles because they are too expensive to fix, according to a new report from Reuters.


Reuters looked at recent salvage auction listings and found that the "vast majority" of the 120 Model Y vehicles listed had less than 10,000 miles on them. While these EVs originally cost between around $60,000 and $80,000, high repair costs will keep them off the road in the future, despite their low odometer readings. A $61,000 2022 Model Y Long Range EV, for example, was in a front collision and would have cost more than $50,000 to fix had the insurer approved the repair. Reuters was not able to determine the types of incidents that caused the damage in these cases but did note that multiple well-known insurance brands, including State Farm, Geico, and Progressive, all decided the fix wasn't in.

Insurance Bill up to 30 Percent Higher


It's not like people aren't paying to protect their Teslas. In late 2022, Nerdwallet reported that the average Tesla owner with a good driving history and good credit could expect to pay about $2040 a year for a Model Y and as much as $3044 for a Model X. The average cost to insure a Model 3 is almost 30 percent higher than the national average for car insurance, Nerdwallet said.

Exactly how much more it costs to repair the average Tesla after an incident compared to other vehicles, both electric and ICE models, is difficult to gauge, but Tesla has long been aware that insurance costs for its EVs are out of line with the average cost for the industry. Tesla started offering its own insurance policies for customers in late 2019, promising that it would lower costs for Tesla drivers. Customers could certainly benefit from lower costs. As a story from The Drive in 2021 showed, a Tesla service center quoted one Model 3 owner $16,000 to fix a battery pack coolant leak after it was damaged by road debris. An independent mechanic was able to fix the issue for $700, and The Drive argued the story proved that the Right to Repair is an important issue for EVs.


For its part, Tesla's insurance side business is now helping the automaker lower future repair costs, according to company executives. "[Tesla insurance] is also giving us a good feedback loop into minimizing the cost of repair of Teslas—for all Teslas worldwide—because we obviously want to minimize the cost of repairing a Tesla if it's in a collision," CEO Elon Musk said during a recent earnings call, according to Teslarati. "Previously, we didn't actually have good insight into that because the other insurance companies would cover the cost. And actually, the cost in some cases were unreasonably high."

Tesla is using its insurance arm to make changes in how it designs its vehicles, Musk said on the call, according to Reuters. "It's remarkable how small changes in the design of the bumper [and] providing spare parts needed for collision repair have an enormous effect on the repair cost," he said. "Most accidents are actually small—a broken fender or scratched side of the car."
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on July 23, 2023, 08:35:44 AM
While Toyota has hitherto seemed staunchly opposed to EVs, its research and development department has been developing what may be the biggest breakthrough in EV batteries away from the prying eyes of publicists: a solid-state car battery with a range of 745 miles and a charge time of ten minutes. (For those who prefer metric, that’s a range of 1200 kilometers and a charge time of six hectoseconds.)

For the first time in the history of mass-production EVs, a battery-powered car will have the same driving range as one with an engine and a gas tank. 
The rise of EVs has made battery research a lot more profitable than it was a mere ten years ago, and scientists have been working on overcoming the shortcomings of solid-state batteries. Toyota is the first company that has come out and said it may have solved the range and battery weight problems.

Toyota has been more devoted to hydrogen cars than practically other auto company. Indeed, Toyota has been so enthusiastic about hydrogen that at times it seemed like a passion project of recently-departed CEO Akio Toyoda. The Toyota Mirai has become the de-facto flagship of hydrogen cars. It is about as middle-of-the-road as one can get without making a crossover instead of a sedan. Indeed, it cannot be a coincidence that Toyota designed the Mirai to look like a close relation to the Camry. Putting hydrogen fuel cells into such a deliberately normal car essentially makes refueling the only difficulty for sales.

Toyota has recently announced a hydrogen variant of its Crown luxury sedan, which will be sold only in Japan (JDM enthusiasts, take note!). For quite some time, it appeared that Toyota was one of the few automakers trying to fight a valiant crusade for a fuel that could barely be found outside the confines of a small handful of cities worldwide. Toyota is also strongly pushing the use of hydrogen for commercial trucking. While it previously seemed like Toyota was betting that hydrogen would supersede batteries, it is now apparent that the company is taking the same approach to the post-ICE future as other manufacturers.

As the public gets more comfortable with EVs, most companies have begun developing both battery and hydrogen-powered cars. A quick reading of most corporate press releases about hydrogen cars shows that nearly every automaker says something about how no single-car fuel will solve the energy crisis. On the subject of hydrogen fuel cells, corporate copywriters seem particularly fond of the phrase “just one piece of the puzzle.” It’s almost a requirement to mention the metaphorical puzzle at some point in a hydrogen press release.

Toyota’s promises about this battery seem almost too good to be true. Even Tesla, the company leading the EV vanguard, hasn’t managed to produce a vehicle that has the same driving range as a car with an inline-four and a full tank of gas. The prospect of a ten-minute charge time is just as astonishing as an EV that can allegedly drive from Chicago to Philadelphia without charging midway. If Toyota lives up to its own hype, it may usurp everyone else currently vying for the top of the EV game.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 23, 2023, 10:04:30 AM
There often are "catches" when someone announces that sort of massive breakthrough, often cost.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on July 23, 2023, 01:04:40 PM
Another electric vehicle (EV) startup is touting “holy grail” charging technology.

The news from UK-based Nyobolt might just rise to the billing, as it promises 155 miles on a six-minute charge, with production slated to start in 2024.

Most EVs take much longer, sometimes even hours, to fully charge.

“With our unique technology we have … developed smaller battery packs that can deliver more power and charge in less time,” Nyobolt CEO Sai Shivareddy told BBC Top Gear.

The Nyobolt website doesn’t go into great detail about the tech inside the battery. The makers promise high power, a long life cycle, and improved safety to go along with the extremely fast charge time.

Lithium-ion batteries, common in EVs and a lot of other technology, have, in some cases, caught fire. Battery-makers are working on better alternatives, in part to reduce the explosion risk.

Nyobolt experts claim that its battery has a “wider temperature performance.”


What’s more, it plans to put the tech to the test in fast fashion. Nyobolt has teamed with the UK’s Callum Design to create a sports car. The Nyobolt EV has the curves of a vintage roadster, but there’s no doubt it’s from the 21st century. Everything on the car is as high-tech as it gets.

After watching a video showcasing the car on Callum’s website, it wouldn’t be a surprise to learn the EV comes with a warp drive (maybe in the next generation).

Motor Authority reported that Nyobolt hasn’t released a production date for the sports car. But the battery tech is ready for “rapid scale-up” next year. The power pack has been tested with more than 2,000 fast-charge cycles with good performance, according to the Motor Authority report.

It’s more good news for the EV industry as it tries to match range and performance with gasoline-powered vehicles.

Nyobolt is considering plugging into the truck, bus, and luxury categories, as well, according to Motor Authority.

The sports car could be the first big test for the startup.

“Nyobolt’s technology allows this car to tick all the boxes,” Callum creative lead Aleck Jones told Top Gear.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on July 23, 2023, 08:52:38 PM
A new paper published by SAE International uses Car and Driver's real-world highway test data to show that electric vehicles underperform on real-world efficiency and range relative to the EPA figures by a much greater margin than internal-combustion vehicles. While the latter typically meet or exceed the EPA-estimated highway fuel economy numbers, EVs tend to fall considerably short of the range number on the window sticker. The paper, written by Car and Driver's testing director, Dave VanderWerp, and Gregory Pannone, was presented this week at SAE International's annual WCX conference. It points to a need for revised testing and labeling standards for EVs moving forward.

"Basically we've taken a look at how vehicles perform relative to the values on the window sticker, looking at the difference between what the label says and what we actually see in our real-world highway test," explained VanderWerp. "We see a big difference in that gap between gas-powered vehicles and the performance of EVs. The real question is: When first-time customers are buying EVs, are they going to be pleasantly surprised or disappointed by the range?"

On Car and Driver's 75-mph highway test, more than 350 internal-combustion vehicles averaged 4.0 percent better fuel economy than what was stated on their labels. But the average range for an EV was 12.5 percent worse than the price sticker numbers.

One reason the paper suggests for why EVs fail to match expectations is how the range is calculated. While separate city and highway range figures are computed behind closed doors, only a combined number is presented to consumers. The combined rating is weighted 55 percent in favor of the city figure, where EVs typically perform better. This inflates the range estimates, making it harder to match in real-world highway driving. The paper proposes publishing both city and highway range figures—as with fuel-economy estimates for gas-powered vehicles—to give shoppers a more holistic sense of a vehicle's abilities.

The way the tests are conducted also skews the reported range figure. Unlike Car and Driver's real-world test—carried out at a constant 75 mph—the EPA's cycle is variable, with the speed increasing and decreasing over the course of the test. While this is detrimental to the results for gas vehicles, which tend to be most efficient at a steady rpm, the ability to regenerate energy under braking leads to higher range results for EVs, which are shifted even higher by the slight bias towards the city results in the combined rating.

The EPA's highway cycle is conducted at significantly lower speeds than Car and Driver's 75-mph test, with the initial EPA results then multiplied by a reduction factor to simulate the effect of higher speeds. Automakers can chose between running a two-cycle test—where the data is multiplied by a standard 0.7 adjustment factor—or carrying out a five-cycle test in an attempt to earn a smaller reduction factor, making the label figure higher. That means range figures aren't perfectly comparable across different vehicles.

"There's a balance," explained VanderWerp. "The marketing team wants to tout a big range number, but to customers you want to be conservative." This leads to different approaches from various brands. The German automakers—BMW, Mercedes, Audi, and Porsche—typically provide a relatively conservative range figure, allowing us to meet or even at times exceed the range numbers in Car and Driver's real-world tests. Tesla, meanwhile, pursues an impressive figure for its window stickers, and ends up returning real-world results that are on average two times as far off the label value as most EVs. A range discrepancy between EVs from different companies might not be as extreme as the numbers would suggest. "400 miles of stated range for a Tesla and 300 miles for a Porsche is pretty much the same number at real highway speeds," VanderWerp said.

The paper recommends that the EPA shift the reduction factor closer to 0.6, which would result in range estimates that closely correlate with the results of the real-world efficiency test. But having the same test procedure for all cars is also crucial.

"Every automaker could aggressively use the five-cycle test and get a better reduction factor, but then more people end up being disappointed in the numbers," VanderWerp said. "They should all be tested the same, and it should be closer to the real world than it is now." The paper can be found in full at SAE's website.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 26, 2023, 06:13:20 PM
Debunking EV Myths: Emissions Related To Batteries, Charging Debunking EV Myths: Emissions Related To Batteries, Charging (thebusinessdownload.com) (https://clean-energy.thebusinessdownload.com/debunking-ev-myths-emissions-related-to-batteries-charging/?utm_medium=social)

This might be a bit biased, perhaps maybe, which is not unusual.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on July 27, 2023, 10:16:01 AM
Chevy lays down the gauntlet in EV truck market with new electric Silverado that can travel 450 miles on a single charge

It seems like just about every other week, a new electric vehicle (EV) is being introduced with bigger, better features than before. Well, this time, it’s Chevy’s Silverado EV with an impressive 450-plus-mile range. 

Batteries are the name of the game in the EV industry, and Chevy’s Silverado EV is poised to lead the pack. The Silverado EV boasts some impressive features, including the 450-mile range, 0 to 60 in 4.5 seconds, and 10,000-pound towing capability.

But the real selling point is the 200-plus kWh battery.


To put this battery in perspective, the average EV right now is running on a 75 kWh battery, and a standard EV truck is running on a 100 kWh battery. A similar truck on the EV market, Ford’s F-150 Lighting long-range battery, comes in at 131 kWh.

Despite the massive size of this battery, the range is also incredibly impressive. While Chevy’s website advertises a conservative 400-mile range, a team at Electrek got to test out the truck and said that they easily got over 450 — even close to 500 — miles in a single charge when driving the vehicle in a normal town setting.

This type of range could be a game-changer for the EV truck market. For comparison, the GMC Hummer EV has a similar-sized battery but only has a 329-mile range.

The Silverado EV is expected to come out next year, with the longest-range battery and all options coming in at an estimated $105,000 and up. More Silverado EVs are expected to follow with varying price tags.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on July 27, 2023, 10:42:35 AM
I saw this article and thought I'd share it here:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelany/2023/07/24/those-in-the-southwest-are-learning-electric-cars-dont-like-it-hot/amp/

The headline relates to hot temperatures but the article also discusses cold temperatures. Per the article the rough impacts are:

This has long been a concern/question of mine so I'm happy to see some concrete numbers. 

ICE vehicles tend to lose efficiency at extreme temperatures as well but the loss is typically less severe because:

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on July 27, 2023, 10:56:21 AM
The A/C compressor uses much less power than back in the 80's

used to turn the A/C off before turning the engine off so that you didn't try to start it with the A/C on.

then when starting, you'd let the motor warm up a bit or even get rolling before turning on the A/C

it was rough on gas mileage
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 27, 2023, 01:13:42 PM
A factor is that engines today are mostly quite a bit more powerful than they were circa 1975, so the drag of the AC is less of a factor.  The AC still has to pump and dump  heat.  The heaters on an EV just do this in reverse and are inefficient because they have to pump heat from rather cold air into you interior.  The colder it gets, the less heat there is to pump.

This is one reason I am at this stage more a fan of plug in hybrids than total EVs.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 27, 2023, 02:49:57 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/CepBbZQ.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on July 27, 2023, 02:50:46 PM
This is one reason I am at this stage more a fan of plug in hybrids than total EVs.
I agree and you live in Georgia. Here in Ohio it gets almost as hot in the Summer* and MUCH colder in the winter.

With a plug-in hybrid I could just run the on board ICE when my range got slashed by extreme temperatures but with a total EV I'd be stuck in need of a charge.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 27, 2023, 02:58:18 PM
Cincy, to me, feels hotter and more humid than Atlanta, but for a shorter period of time.  The cold here is rarely below 20°F, though we got down to 8°F last winter once.  


My weather page showed 94°F and 41% here right now, it's hot.  Cincy is 93°F and 58% RH, I prefer being here.  We also have a lot of trees.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on July 27, 2023, 03:01:42 PM
A factor is that engines today are mostly quite a bit more powerful than they were circa 1975, so the drag of the AC is less of a factor.  The AC still has to pump and dump  heat.  
you're correct but I'm guessing the AC compressor is much smaller and more efficient and takes much less power

Perhaps the compressor is smart enough to not pull load while starting the engine as well

both factors
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on July 27, 2023, 03:48:41 PM
As with anything, it's situational. 

A base Tesla Model 3, supposedly, has 267 miles of range. Drop that by 20% assuming this is your daily driver, as most don't push their battery beyond 80% unless it's prepping for a single long drive. So immediately pull that down to 213 miles if you start with 80% charge. Then drop another 41% off that assuming it's exactly 20degF. Now you're down to 126 miles. 

Is it common that you're driving more than 126 miles in a day? For some of you, probably yes. For many others, probably no. I.e. for me today, I'll probably drive around 35-40 miles, including commute to/from work and a stop at Costco. It will actually be quite rare for me to exceed 126 miles. 

Then, if there are rare days when you think 126 is too short, there's the possibility to charge to 100%, in which case you get some of that mileage back... That'll get you up to 157 miles on a single charge at 20degF. As long as you're not charging to 100% every night, that's not a problem. 

And this is all assuming that you're not going anywhere that a top-off charge is convenient. 

I think range anxiety is overblown. Are there people who simply can't live with an EV due to range? OF COURSE THERE ARE. Is it typically as many people who actually worry about it? I'm guessing not. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on July 27, 2023, 04:08:46 PM
The headline relates to hot temperatures but the article also discusses cold temperatures. Per the article the rough impacts are:
17% loss of range at 95° and more as it gets hotter,
41% loss of range at 20° and more as it gets colder.
This has long been a concern/question of mine so I'm happy to see some concrete numbers.


__________________________________

17% isn't so bad - and not many days at 20 degrees higher of 115

41% is cornsiderable - lotta days up north it doesn't make it to zero, especially at night - 20 below isn't too crazy - 40 degree difference


Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 27, 2023, 04:13:41 PM
I think we'd all agree range anxiety is situation, and personal.  That's why I've posited that your typical suburban family could manage with one smaller EV to get to work and then a minivan or whatever, for Mom and the kids (being traditional here).  Could I manage with an EV?  Yes, usually.  And I could rent something otherwise.  One other issue I have is that away from home chargers are said to be 3-5x the cost of normal electricity, which is 12 cents per here, higher in most other places.    We have chargers on site but I think they are pricey, most like 40 cents per kWhr.  You need about 33 kWhrs to go 100 miles (normally).  My GTI will need 3 gallons to go 100 miles on the highway, so how much am I saving?  

Then there is my need to tow a 12,000 pound boat in subzero mountain terrain ....
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on July 27, 2023, 04:32:54 PM
My problem is that I just got my $342 electric bill and it pencils out to 38.9 cents/kWh for the power AT my house. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 27, 2023, 04:43:16 PM
That is astonishing, really, even for CA.  I'm paying 12 cents per.  My bill last month broached $200 for the first time in 5 years.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on July 27, 2023, 04:53:36 PM
Yeah, and it doesn't help that I have a house from the 70s with original windows, drafty af, and quite possibly the original AC unit--if not it's also old af. 

Shouldn't cost this much to cool 1200 sf. Especially since I'm usually setting the thermo at 77ish. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 27, 2023, 04:55:23 PM
1700 SF. 74 degrees constant.

$210 last month. Probably be the same for July.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 27, 2023, 05:01:17 PM
I got quite a bit of savings in Cincy by replacing the AC unit and bringing attic insulation up to 50.  Windows of course are another leaker.  The new ones are pretty good.

We have a bit over 2300 sf but only two sides are exposed.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on July 27, 2023, 05:05:54 PM
As with anything, it's situational.

A base Tesla Model 3, supposedly, has 267 miles of range. Drop that by 20% assuming this is your daily driver, as most don't push their battery beyond 80% unless it's prepping for a single long drive. So immediately pull that down to 213 miles if you start with 80% charge. Then drop another 41% off that assuming it's exactly 20degF. Now you're down to 126 miles.

Is it common that you're driving more than 126 miles in a day? For some of you, probably yes. For many others, probably no. I.e. for me today, I'll probably drive around 35-40 miles, including commute to/from work and a stop at Costco. It will actually be quite rare for me to exceed 126 miles.

Then, if there are rare days when you think 126 is too short, there's the possibility to charge to 100%, in which case you get some of that mileage back... That'll get you up to 157 miles on a single charge at 20degF. As long as you're not charging to 100% every night, that's not a problem.

And this is all assuming that you're not going anywhere that a top-off charge is convenient.

I think range anxiety is overblown. Are there people who simply can't live with an EV due to range? OF COURSE THERE ARE. Is it typically as many people who actually worry about it? I'm guessing not.
You are probably right but my concern is two things:

First, I don't want to be too early on this and come to find out that whoops, they did all their testing in SoCal at 70° and the thing has severely limited range when it snows (need to use defrost constantly to keep windshield clear) and it can barely get out of the driveway on the coldest days of the year.

Second, I'm a lot more concerned about range in winter than summer already. Tuesday I ran almost to E because I had a bunch of stuff to do and limited time so I didn't stop to fill up until I was almost done and almost empty. In the winter I almost NEVER let the tank drop below half because I've been stuck in my car for hours due to inclement weather and related accidents. If that happens I want to have enough energy on board to keep myself and my kids warm.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 27, 2023, 05:10:12 PM
I recall some "study", probably by experts, that a stalled EV will maintain heat about as long as an ICE vehicle.  Of course, this depends on how full your tank is.  I was a bit dubious about the outcome.  I wonder if most EV drivers today recharge when they drop below 50% or let it run down to 25%, which is probably around typical for ICE owners.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on July 27, 2023, 05:21:20 PM
I'll wait a few years, maybe longer

Ford came out early with the Lightning
after waiting a year, the Silverado has a much better battery
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 27, 2023, 05:22:44 PM
I think I'm 8-10 years away from being interested in buying an EV.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 27, 2023, 06:10:52 PM
Like nearly every other automaker on the planet, Porsche has plans (https://jalopnik.com/porsche-says-80-percent-of-its-cars-will-be-electrified-1846514040) to transition to electric vehicles by the 2030s. In the course of that transition, every vehicle in the brand’s lineup will become an EV, except for the iconic 911. Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/porsches-iconic-911-be-sole-survivor-automakers-combustion-models-2023-07-26/) reports that the 911 will be powered by an old fashioned internal combustion engine, which is part of the reason why Porsche has committed to developing e-fuels.

The 911 Will Be The Last Gas Powered Porsche (jalopnik.com) (https://jalopnik.com/the-911-will-be-the-last-gas-powered-porsche-1850678610?utm_campaign=Jalopnik&utm_content=1690479006&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR1pfuKCqEhfcZnLh1HKp57sNXct4EdBKmfOf1DTNWkVvWE__kB_lg8eEH8)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on July 27, 2023, 06:18:58 PM
maybe I will own a Porsche some day
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on July 27, 2023, 08:03:31 PM
I'm probably closer to looking seriously at an EV than the rest of you guys, based on my driving habits, plan to keep my Jeep, and the fact that I do live in sunny and temperate SoCal. 

But even then, it's not for at least 3 more years at this point when the oldest will be ready for college. And based on the mileage accrual on the Flex, I may not even be at 100K by then and may prefer to just keep driving it several more years rather than buying another car. 

So I'm happy waiting to see how the market develops. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MaximumSam on July 27, 2023, 08:20:59 PM
After my gas lawnmower crapped out I swore to never buy another gas powered tool again, which I've held to. My weed whacker, trimmer, blower, lawnmower, and pressure washer are all electric. Still have a gas car, though could certainly move to EV if it makes sense money wise. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 28, 2023, 05:30:49 AM
How Much Does It Cost To Charge an Electric Car? - Kelley Blue Book (kbb.com) (https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-an-ev/)

What Is the Cost to Charge an EV in kWh?
“A conservative rule of thumb is that an electric car gets 3 to 4 miles per kWh,” Voelcker says. “So divide the total miles you drive each month by 3 to get the kWh you would use monthly. Multiply that number by your cost per kWh. The dollar amount you get will most likely be lower than what you pay each month to buy gasoline.”
To put this into perspective, let’s give an example. Suppose you drive about 1,124 miles per month (Americans go an average of about 13,489 miles annually (https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/average-miles-driven-per-year/)). For an EV, you will use about 375 kWh in that timeframe. Using the U.S. household average of about 16 cents per kWh, charging an electric car at home would cost nearly $60 per month.
How Does the Recharge Cost Compare to a Fuel Fill-Up?
According to AAA (https://gasprices.aaa.com/), the average price of gas hovers at $3.60 per gallon as of this writing. So, filling up a 12-gallon gas tank currently costs about $43. Things get a little tricky because, as we all know, cars and trucks use vastly different amounts of fuel.
Let’s say you’re driving a car that brings a combined average of 30 miles per gallon during a mix of city and highway driving. Using that same 12-gallon tank as a reference point, you’ll have 360 miles of driving range for each fill-up. If you’re driving the same 1,124 miles per month, you’ll need to refuel three times each month and spend about $129 ($43 x 3).

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 28, 2023, 07:37:22 AM
The grid won't be ready by 2030.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 28, 2023, 07:40:57 AM
I think it will, mostly because by 2030, there still won't be all that many EVs on the road. 

VAdoption estimates that EV sales will grow to just 29.5% of all new vehicles in the US in 2030. The International Energy Agency (IEA) projects a US EV share of 20% in 2030, based on existing policy and trends.

The projected 26.4 million EVs will make up nearly 10 percent of the 259 million light-duty vehicles (cars and light trucks) expected to be on U.S. roads in 2030



Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 28, 2023, 08:00:10 AM
If every auto maker is going to be all EV by 2030, we better pray that the grid be ready no later than 2035.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 28, 2023, 08:23:35 AM
If every auto maker is going to be all EV by 2030, we better pray that the grid be ready no later than 2035.
I don't think that is a goal of most automakers.  Some brands have that as a goal.  Clearly, folks "project" that maybe 1 in 3 new cars will be EVs by 2030, maybe, which is a fairly slow rate of replacement.  Even by 2050, projections are that half the cars in the US will have ICE.

I think the "grid" will continue to have issues, and maybe in CA EVs will contribute to those issues, and maybe Texas, but simple growth in the economy is a larger increase in demand even without EVs.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on July 28, 2023, 08:26:44 AM
If every auto maker is going to be all EV by 2030, we better pray that the grid be ready no later than 2035.
most vehicles on the road today aren't 2018 or newer
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on July 28, 2023, 08:29:26 AM
In a much-anticipated move, the US Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) passed a new rule today that’s finally going to streamline the backed-up US grid interconnection process.

At the end of 2022, there were more than 2,000 gigawatts of bottlenecked new power generation and storage waiting to be connected across the US. That’s the same amount of electricity generation capacity as all the power plants currently operating around the country.


Projects have faced an average wait of up to five years to connect to the grid – and today’s ruling is expected to shorten that wait (we’ll keep an eye on it to see to what extent).

FERC says today’s rule will provide “greater timing and cost certainty to interconnection customers, and prevent… undue discrimination against new sources of power generation.”

Willie Phillips, FERC chairman, said:

This new rule will enable America’s vast power generation resources to connect to the grid in a reliable, efficient, transparent, and timely manner, and in doing so, help provide more reliable, resilient, and affordable electricity for all consumers.

Phillips also noted that there’s still a lot to do.

Melissa Alfano, director of energy markets and counsel at the Solar Energy Industries Association (SEIA), said, “Interconnection reforms need to be meaningful to make a difference, and this final ruling from FERC is a step in the right direction.”

“In particular, we are pleased to see that the rules set binding study deadlines and establish penalties for transmission providers that fail to meet those deadlines.”

“In addition, the new rules will make it easier to add energy storage to projects that are already in the interconnection queue, helping to increase energy storage capacity on the grid and recognize the growing value clean energy has when it comes to providing grid services.” 


Today’s final rule includes several key reform areas, including, according to FERC:

Institution of a first-ready-first-served cluster study process, with increased financial commitments for interconnection customers, to improve the efficiency of the interconnection process and minimize delays;
Imposition of firm deadlines and penalties if transmission providers fail to complete their interconnection studies on time incorporation of technological advancements into the interconnection process, including consideration of advanced transmission technologies in the interconnection study process;
An update of modeling and performance requirements for inverter-based resources to ensure continued system reliability.
The more detailed “Improvements to Generator Interconnection Procedures and Agreements” can be read on the FERC Fact Sheet here.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 28, 2023, 08:44:35 AM
most vehicles on the road today aren't 2018 or newer
Including mine.

Will there be mechanics to work on my gas car in 2035?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 28, 2023, 08:46:23 AM
If half the cars on the road by 2050 have an ICE, we'll have plenty of mechanics working on them.  And that is the projection.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on July 28, 2023, 08:50:50 AM
Including mine.

Will there be mechanics to work on my gas car in 2035?
yes, they don't all mysteriously die or retire

I'd be worried about a shop that can work on an electric vehicle
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 28, 2023, 08:55:55 AM
I suspect most EVs will be diagnosed by computer and then the offending part would be replaced.    This is pretty true for ICE cars anyway, and they are mostly more complex.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 28, 2023, 09:01:10 AM
How much electricity would it take to power all cars if they were electric? (usafacts.org) (https://usafacts.org/articles/how-much-electricity-would-it-take-to-power-all-cars-if-they-were-electric/#:~:text=Given that comparison%2C it would,20-50% more electricity.)

Given that comparison, it would take roughly 800 to 1,900 billion kWh of electricity to power all vehicles if they were EVs.

The US used about 4,130 billion kWh of electricity in 2019 (https://www.eia.gov/totalenergy/data/browser/index.php?tbl=T07.02A#/?f=A&start=1949&end=2021&charted=1-2-3-5-8-14-15). This means if all cars were EVs that year, the US would have consumed 20-50% more electricity.



This is rather off in the future of course.  

 US power capacity will need to double in order to power 186 million light-duty EVs in 2050. But industry experts argue that US energy consumption decreased over the last 20 years, due to efficiency gains in appliances and the transportation sector, mean that the US power system has enough (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-weather-grids-autos-insight-idUSKBN2AX18Y) established capacity to support EV growth without the immediate need for big investments. (Figure 3).
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 28, 2023, 09:01:45 AM
yes, they don't all mysteriously die or retire

I'd be worried about a shop that can work on an electric vehicle
I don't know about that.

Kids won't go to school to fix engines if their teachers tell them to go to battery school instead.

Or History school.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 28, 2023, 09:02:20 AM
I don't know much about history ...
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 28, 2023, 09:04:07 AM
I don't know much about history ...
Yes, you do, and you are a chemical doctor.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on July 28, 2023, 09:05:54 AM
I don't know much about history ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4GLAKEjU4w
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 28, 2023, 11:56:07 AM
What Happens When a Rivian EV Runs Out of Battery Charge? (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2022-rivian-r1t-yearlong-review-update-10-running-out-of-battery/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AAMAG%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR0a1LIk9GRa6U1EWn1PkJZ_hqcN6jitOl_I7Vp9Q3RSGSS7d89KTtN_OaU)


This is a bit long but rather "amusing" for those of us who don't have an EV.  The gist of it is DO NOT run the batteries all the way down, and I had not know the Rivian had two 12 volt batteries to power accessories which are critical at times.


Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on July 28, 2023, 12:18:23 PM
it's worst than running my chevy out of gasoline
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 28, 2023, 12:20:18 PM
I think future EV tow trucks will have to have a large battery on board to charge up dead EVs.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on July 28, 2023, 12:22:47 PM
if you're already there with the tow truck, why not tow them to a supercharger?  of home to their garage charger?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 28, 2023, 12:26:12 PM
It would be cheaper to juice them up with 20 miles range so they can drive off, I think, and you wouldn't need a tow truck, just a truck or van with a decent battery.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on July 28, 2023, 01:01:12 PM
What Happens When a Rivian EV Runs Out of Battery Charge? (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2022-rivian-r1t-yearlong-review-update-10-running-out-of-battery/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AAMAG%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR0a1LIk9GRa6U1EWn1PkJZ_hqcN6jitOl_I7Vp9Q3RSGSS7d89KTtN_OaU)

This is a bit long but rather "amusing" for those of us who don't have an EV.  The gist of it is DO NOT run the batteries all the way down, and I had not know the Rivian had two 12 volt batteries to power accessories which are critical at times.
Yeah, and this is one source of trepidation for EV adoption. I want to make sure a company has gotten through the learning curve before I'll buy their product. Obviously Tesla went through that learning curve. No did Nissan with the Leaf if you've heard of the early battery management problems they had. 

BTW I often liken this to HDDs and SSDs. In the early SSD days, companies didn't understand the failure modes and how to test for failures. Hence the early SSDs had TONS of problems. Everyone thought they should be more reliable b/c they had no moving parts, but the firmware is MUCH more complicated due to moving data around in ways HDD never did, so you'd have drives brick from FW bugs in ways that HDDs never really happened because we'd had 40 years of learning curve. Obviously SSDs have matured and that concern is no longer really all that significant, but in the early days they were. 

It would be cheaper to juice them up with 20 miles range so they can drive off, I think, and you wouldn't need a tow truck, just a truck or van with a decent battery.
Exactly. Years ago, when I still had my Ford Ranger, unbeknownst to me the fuel gauge failed. Once it dropped to 1/4 tank, the gauge would not register anything lower. So if you had less than 1/4 tank, you had no indication of the level. And as you'd expect, I first learned of this failure when I ran out of gas on the freeway. 

SoCal has some roving trucks to deal with these types of things to reduce traffic slowdowns from people stranded on the side of the road, and one happened to be going by. Instead of towing me to the nearest gas station (probably less than or very barely over a mile away actually), he just poured 1/2 gal of gas in my tank and I drove off to fill up. Much easier, and less time consuming for him, than trying to hook up my truck, and tow it, one mile. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Hawkinole on July 28, 2023, 11:23:44 PM
26% of Toyota sales were EVs and hybrids first half of 2023, and Toyota claims it is working on developing a battery with a 900-mile range. Toyota’s latest sales data reveals a major consumer shift is underway: ‘It’s a powerful upgrade that drives change’ (yahoo.com) (https://news.yahoo.com/toyota-latest-sales-data-reveals-201413395.html)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 29, 2023, 07:03:22 AM
That 26% figure would include a LOT of hybrids, not EVs.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 29, 2023, 07:31:38 AM
Why Most Car Companies Don't Use Stainless Steel Bodies (jalopnik.com) (https://jalopnik.com/theres-a-reason-most-car-companies-dont-use-stainless-s-1850082421)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 29, 2023, 07:49:37 AM
Our Volkswagen ID4 Is Costing Us Pennies to Run (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2022-vw-id4-yearlong-review-update-3-cost-to-run/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AAMAG%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR3QwKGUkIXTAKsA8JXgRuKaAhlPDZmoX3mxOPFTOy4UwZIHDPi95-AXBZ4)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on July 29, 2023, 08:55:00 AM
RMIT engineers say they've tripled the energy density of cheap, rechargeable, recyclable proton flow batteries, which can now challenge commercially available lithium-ion batteries for capacity with a specific energy density of 245 Wh/kg.

That's as compared to the ~260-odd Wh/kg delivered by the lithium-ion batteries in a current Tesla Model 3 battery pack, but without using any lithium, thus avoiding a forecasted lithium squeeze, as well as geopolitically sensitive dependence on China in the battery supply chain, and all kinds of end-of-life issues.


We've covered this particular team's work before, way back in 2014, when the first proof of concept of a hydrogen-based proton flow battery was announced.

Essentially, it's a different way of using hydrogen for energy storage. The proton battery works something like a reversible fuel cell, accepting water while charging, splitting out positively-charged hydrogen ions and releasing oxygen.


In their latest paper, the RMIT researchers looked into the fundamentals of how the proton battery worked – mainly on the oxygen-side reactions – in order to formulate and test some ideas around how it might be improved. These ideas, according to the paper, included vacuum drying of the activated carbon powder prior to electrode preparation, in order to remove water in the material, mild heating of the overall cell to 70 °C during operation, and replacement of the oxygen-side gas diffusion layer (GDL) with a much thinner GDL fiber sheet.

The benefits, they say, were enormous, resulting in a proton battery capable of storing almost three times as much energy per weight as their last one – and "more than double the highest electrochemical hydrogen storage using an acidic electrolyte previously reported in the literature." At a density of 882 joules per gram, it roughly equates to 245 Wh/kg, right up there with good commercial lithium batteries currently on the market.

“Our battery has an energy-per-unit mass already comparable with commercially available lithium-ion batteries, while being much safer and better for the planet in terms of taking less resources out of the ground,” said lead researcher and RMIT Professor John Andrews in a press release.

“Our battery is also potentially capable of very fast charging," he continued. "The main resource used in our proton battery is carbon, which is abundant, available in all countries and cheap compared to the resources needed for other types of rechargeable battery such as lithium, cobalt and vanadium. There are also no end-of-life environmental challenges with a proton battery, since all components and materials can be rejuvenated, reused or recycled.”


Roundtrip efficiency is a definite bugbear for most hydrogen powertrains, where energy is effectively thrown away during electrolysis, compression/cooling, storage and at the fuel cell when converting hydrogen back into electricity. But that doesn't seem to be the case here. "Our proton battery has much lower losses than conventional hydrogen systems, making it directly comparable to lithium-ion batteries in terms of energy efficiency" said Andrews.

He clarifies further in an email: "We're targeting above 75% roundtrip energy efficiency at this stage. Yes, this will be time dependent depending on the rate of self-discharge, but we expect this can be minimised with optimal design. As you will know, this is comparable with lithium ion batteries, and much greater than conventional electrolyser/H2 gas storage/fuel cell systems (<45%)."

Still, the team is moving to commercialize the proton battery. "We are looking forward to developing this technology further in Melbourne and Italy, in partnership with Eldor Corporation, to produce a prototype battery with a storage capacity that meets the needs of a range of domestic and commercial applications," said Andrews. "The aim of this collaboration is to scale up the system from the watt to the kilowatt and ultimately to the megawatt scale."

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Hawkinole on July 29, 2023, 04:45:32 PM
That 26% figure would include a LOT of hybrids, not EVs.
A few minutes ago I read a parallel article about Ford, and the demand seems to be hybrids over EVs for now. The article further stated that there is a demand for having dual use capability not only to run the car, but to have electric outlets for appliances for uses such as operating a dorm refrigerator at a tailgate, or for charging tools, or use of electric tools at a jobsite.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Hawkinole on July 29, 2023, 04:55:13 PM
Our Volkswagen ID4 Is Costing Us Pennies to Run (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2022-vw-id4-yearlong-review-update-3-cost-to-run/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AAMAG%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR3QwKGUkIXTAKsA8JXgRuKaAhlPDZmoX3mxOPFTOy4UwZIHDPi95-AXBZ4)
The cruxed of the article you linked is that it costs about $.07 per mile to operate the VW ID4.

This article says it costs about $.101 per mile to operate an internal combustion engine vehicle (ICEV) light duty vehicle, and $.09 per mile to operate a plug-in hybrid vehicle. FOTW #1190, June 14, 2021: Battery-Electric Vehicles Have Lower Scheduled Maintenance Costs than Other Light-Duty Vehicles | Department of Energy (https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/articles/fotw-1190-june-14-2021-battery-electric-vehicles-have-lower-scheduled#:~:text=The estimated scheduled maintenance cost for a light-duty,engine vehicle (ICEV) totals 10.1 cents per mile.) (https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=976729120414740)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on July 29, 2023, 09:43:46 PM
It heavily depends of course on prices.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on August 02, 2023, 08:56:14 AM
The Chevy Blazer EV Heads To Dealers, But You'll Have To Wait For The Cheap Ones (jalopnik.com) (https://jalopnik.com/the-chevy-blazer-ev-heads-to-dealers-with-a-steep-price-1850694493?utm_campaign=Jalopnik&utm_content=1690902005&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR3W4HSQKZbdsDbsCzyMFLDmZgwxx2ncOdzJyQbsvQtbkzGwg7l7Av9ahx0)

Initially, Chevy said (https://jalopnik.com/the-2024-chevy-blazer-ev-packs-up-to-557-hp-and-320-mil-1849193861#:~:text=GM says the Blazer and all this tech will be ready to hit showrooms next summer. Initially%2C it will offer the 2LT and RS models%2C priced from %2447%2C595 and %2451%2C995 respectively.) that the Blazer EV would be offered in 2LT and RS trims with starting prices of $47,595 and $51,995 respectively. These prices are still listed in the Blazer EV section of the Chevy site (http://  https//www.chevrolet.com/electric/blazer-ev).

Prices have increased from their early estimates to $56,715 for the 2LT AWD and $60,215 for the RS AWD; the rear-wheel drive RS costs more at $61,790. A Chevy rep told the Freep (https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/general-motors/2023/07/31/gm-ships-chevy-blazer-ev-to-dealers-price-range/70497022007/) that the first cars being shipped were highly optioned “launch editions.”


Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on August 02, 2023, 09:13:59 AM
That thing is ugly, like pretty much all of the little crossover looking things.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on August 02, 2023, 09:15:39 AM
I like the look, I see that they ship high optioned vehicles initially, as usual.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on August 09, 2023, 01:24:01 PM
2025 Cadillac Escalade IQ: First Look at the Electric Escalade! (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/2025-cadillac-escalade-iq-electric-first-look-review/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AAMAG%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR3mky0zcoHR9YpvUi_Y5aq_N51S1HNMaXjQdSFNACXJZN6mWonLbHpsVU4)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on August 21, 2023, 06:57:29 PM
2023 Ford F-150 Lightning XLT Yearlong Review: Road-Trip Range Strategies (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2023-ford-f-150-lightning-xlt-yearlong-review-update-3-road-trip-speed/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AAMAG%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR0uSNso73eIPvokyoRyMmSP58lmHLAsn75U4bTFadBc74p4xdgoZ6N-WLM)

Yes, over a 1,000-mile trip, maintaining a constant 80 mph saves 50 minutes of driving time versus driving 75 mph, but 45 minutes of that are consumed by the three additional 15-minute charging stops, for an ideal savings of less than 5 minutes (which the time of slowing, hooking up, etc. surely consumes). If you can tolerate 70 mph driving, you'll eliminate another two charging stops, stretching the total journey time by another 28 minutes relative to the 75-mph time, but quite possibly clawing some of that back in logistical time savings. We extrapolated an estimate for 85 mph, and wow does that extend the journey! Relative to going 80 mph, the 11-hour and 45-minute drive time is extended by the addition of six 15-minute charging stops (or three more 30- and 45-minute stops), with the effect of nearly equalizing the overall trip time with that of traveling 65 mph (and that's before you figure in potential speeding-citation stops).
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on August 21, 2023, 07:03:32 PM
That's a problem 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on August 22, 2023, 08:15:06 AM
So, with an EV, range drops dramatically with:

cold weather
towing
higher freeway speeds

Aside from recharging challenges, those three are pretty big negs.  And they aren't subject to some kind of technical fix that i can see, at least not soonish.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 22, 2023, 08:30:14 AM
The manufacturers are really trying to shove EV's down our throats. 

Anyone watch the BMW open?

I imagine they are under pressure to do so. Actually no. Not "I imagine". More like "I'm sure".
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on August 22, 2023, 08:42:36 AM
yup, I was sort of watching

they can try all they want

not happening here in flyover country
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on August 23, 2023, 03:23:28 PM
Top 50 Metro Areas By Electric Vehicle registration:

1 Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim 230,940
2 San Francisco-Oakland-Berkeley 122,404
3 San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara 73,810
4 New York-Newark-Jersey City70,943
5 San Diego-Chula Vista-Carlsbad 51,616

6 Washington-Arlington-Alexandria 43,183
7 Phoenix-Mesa-Chandler 42,049
8 Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue 41,755
9 Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario 40,232
10 Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Alpharetta 36,051

11 Chicago-Naperville-Elgin 32,775
12 Sacramento-Roseville-Folsom 27,937
13 Portland-Vancouver-Hillsboro 27,525
14 Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Pompano Beach 26,943
15 Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington 18,769

16 Denver-Aurora-Lakewood 17,648
17 Detroit-Warren-Dearborn 16,910
18 Minneapolis-St Paul-Bloomington 15,736
19 Boston-Cambridge-Newton 15,511
20 Las Vegas-Henderson-Paradise 14,304

21 Oxnard-Thousand Oaks-Ventura 13,080
22 Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington 12,842
23 Baltimore-Columbia-Towson 12,568
24 Bridgeport-Stamford-Norwalk 11,724
25 Honolulu 10,539

26 Tampa-St Petersburg-Clearwater 10,401
27 Orlando-Kissimmee-Sanford 9,923
28 Houston-The Woodlands-Sugar Land 8,082
29 Salt Lake City 7,822
30 Austin-Round Rock-Georgetown 7,582

31 Tucson 7,353
32 Hartford-East Hartford-Middletown 7,242
33 Charlotte-Concord-Gastonia 6,858
34 St Louis 6,661
35 Raleigh-Cary 6,565

36 Nashville-Franklin-Murfreesboro 6,146
37 Columbus(OH) 6,093
38 Stockton 5,918
39 Fresno 5,481
40 Cincinnati 5,368

41 Pittsburgh 4,744
42 New Haven-Milford 4,675
43 Cleveland-Elyria 4,304
44 Ogden-Clearfield 4,289
45 Rochester(NY) 4,151

46 Jacksonville 4,064
47 Kansas City 4,040
48 Provo-Orem 3,876
49 Albany Schenectady-Troy 3,853
50 Indianapolis-Carmel-Anderson 3,712



[color=rgb( var(--theme-link_hover) )]https://www.storagecafe.com/blog/best-us-metros-for-electric-cars/[/color] (https://www.storagecafe.com/blog/best-us-metros-for-electric-cars/)


 (https://www.storagecafe.com/blog/best-us-metros-for-electric-cars/)(Looks like this data is from August 2021, just FYI)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on August 23, 2023, 03:36:55 PM
22 Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington 12,842
28 Houston-The Woodlands-Sugar Land 8,082

Oil country!
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on August 23, 2023, 03:39:47 PM
22 Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington 12,842
28 Houston-The Woodlands-Sugar Land 8,082

Oil country!
Yup.  Those have got to be the two on the list with the lowest registrations per capita.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on August 23, 2023, 03:51:49 PM
and the most likely to be run off the road
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on August 23, 2023, 03:53:05 PM
Speaking of running off the road...

https://jalopnik.com/tesla-model-3-using-fsd-beta-drives-into-flood-waters-1850762102
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 23, 2023, 03:55:41 PM
Dumbass.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on August 23, 2023, 03:56:43 PM
what do you expect from a Tesla driver?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on September 07, 2023, 11:09:29 AM
Real-world figures | Hydrogen buses cost 2.3 times more to run per km than battery electric ones, says Italian study

The relative energy inefficiency of fuel-cell vehicles is primarily responsible for the difference, report explains

https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/transport/real-world-figures-hydrogen-buses-cost-2-3-times-more-to-run-per-km-than-battery-electric-ones-says-italian-study/2-1-1511785 (https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/transport/real-world-figures-hydrogen-buses-cost-2-3-times-more-to-run-per-km-than-battery-electric-ones-says-italian-study/2-1-1511785)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on September 07, 2023, 11:36:19 AM
what do you expect from a Tesla driver?
I expect them to be pissed after their batteries start on fire after being submerged in salt water.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on September 12, 2023, 01:25:29 PM
ICEd: Cops Called After Energy Secretary EV Charger Goof (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/energy-secretary-jennifer-granholm-ev-road-trip-incident/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AAMAG%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR22AgAAv3dFfL6iUMWsJRqrY4hRRajLVYdQk9i5qn6FPJ6QwKD75-UYnHg)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on September 17, 2023, 04:08:41 PM
Toyota's EV battery future promises 500 miles of range by 2026 — and much more beyond - Autoblog (https://www.autoblog.com/2023/09/17/toyotas-ev-battery-future-promises-500-miles-of-range-by-2026-and-much-more-beyond/?ncid=edlinkusauto00000016&fbclid=IwAR2Q0qxS2aPg5wZDHrqcFYFlXa_4yN8BgZ0wTq0TuHXPUMLmhbpedkPAgkc)

And according to its blue-sky battery (https://www.autoblog.com/tag/battery/) “roadmap,” the Japanese giant sees coming in 2027-28 its first solid-state battery (https://electrek.co/2023/06/13/toyota-claims-solid-state-ev-battery-tech-breakthrough/), which would offer 1,000 kilometers (about 620 miles) of range and take an 80% charge in 10 minutes.

Eventually, Toyota predicts, advanced cell technologies could extend an EV’s driving range to more than 746 miles (1,200 km), and, further down the line, to as much as 932 miles (1,500 km).

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on September 17, 2023, 07:22:49 PM
EVs might be PRACTICABLE in a few years
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on October 03, 2023, 02:03:02 PM
As EV sales surge and cars get heavier, parking garages have to change (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2023/10/03/as-ev-sales-surge-and-cars-get-heavier-parking-garages-have-to-change.html)

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on October 03, 2023, 02:34:44 PM
As EV sales surge and cars get heavier, parking garages have to change (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2023/10/03/as-ev-sales-surge-and-cars-get-heavier-parking-garages-have-to-change.html)


So will roads, bridges, parking lots, etc.

Just minor details.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on October 03, 2023, 02:54:14 PM
So will roads, bridges, parking lots, etc.

Just minor details.
None of which tend to be captured in the projected switching costs from ICE to EV.

I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't continue moving forward with such a switch, but I am asking for some honesty and transparency about what it's actually going to cost.

There Ain't Any Free Lunch and somebody is going to have to pay for it, one way or another.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on October 03, 2023, 04:09:32 PM
None of which tend to be captured in the projected switching costs from ICE to EV.

I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't continue moving forward with such a switch, but I am asking for some honesty and transparency about what it's actually going to cost.

There Ain't Any Free Lunch and somebody is going to have to pay for it, one way or another.
Do some digging on what it costs monetarily and energy-wise to build the batteries (and solar panels).

Do some digging on what kind of construction it takes to get a 300' tall wind turbine tower to a site. Farm roads don't cut it. The turning radius for those trailers is HUGE.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on October 03, 2023, 04:25:35 PM
Do some digging on what it costs monetarily and energy-wise to build the batteries (and solar panels).

Do some digging on what kind of construction it takes to get a 300' tall wind turbine tower to a site. Farm roads don't cut it. The turning radius for those trailers is HUGE.


Oh I'm well acquainted with the costs of batteries.  And lots of those analyses don't even factor in how many times the raw materials are moved around the world during the production of them.

And we have those wind turbines all over the state, I regularly pass convoys hauling those vanes along the highways.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on October 03, 2023, 04:37:21 PM
I've read in various spots that an EV won't be carbon-neutral for anywhere from 20-50K miles due to the energy required to make the batteries alone.

And how long do those batteries actually last?

And I ponder what the real motives are here.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on October 03, 2023, 04:51:17 PM
Battery life has been difficult to assess for obvious reasons.  Tesla has concluded that they lose somewhere around 10% in 200,000 miles, with a lot of variability.  That's a Tesla figure, so take it with a grain.  

According to Tesla CEO Elon Musk, your Tesla batteries are supposed to last for 300,000 to 500,000 miles, or 1,500 battery cycles. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on October 03, 2023, 05:17:33 PM
The batteries from everyone I've talked to have been fine for Tesla. The early Nissan Leaf had horrible battery problems due to poor thermal management. Tesla has seemed to solve that. The other issue is that people have to train themselves not to charge to 100% on the regular. Only do that before a road trip or something where you know you need it. Charge to 80% for daily driving and it'll help battery life. 

The only folks I've known to complain about Tesla are the following:




I don't know that I'd ever buy a Tesla. With the learning curve of EVs, it's unclear whether there will be other viable options in my needs and price range when it comes time to move on from the Flex. But I'd definitely consider it. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on October 03, 2023, 05:33:19 PM
I've looked at Teslas for years at the car show at the State Fair.  Agree that even on their "luxury" models, the fit and finish is much closer to Toyota/Ford/VW.  Which would be fine, except the pricetag doesn't match.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on October 03, 2023, 06:22:25 PM
Yep. And while I'd like to blame Tesla for being a weird poorly-managed company which is why they spent SO much time having profitability issues despite that price tag...

...the real reason that price tag is so high is the cost of the batteries. 

That'll change eventually. But we're not there yet. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on October 04, 2023, 07:42:39 AM
I've been in a Model 3 and a Model S. The 3 sucks hard. The S was nice, but WAY too much money.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Honestbuckeye on October 04, 2023, 08:04:40 AM
If you gave me a Tesla-I would sell it immediately.    Not a good vehicle
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on October 04, 2023, 08:46:49 AM
me too.

W/O even checking to see if it was a good vehicle
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on October 04, 2023, 09:08:27 AM
I have had a few brief experiences with EVs.  One was a VW in Copenhagen, a taxi.  It seemed fine, the driver liked it.  My step son rented a Tesla Y to drive from here to Cincy and back, he liked it, I had a short ride in it, seemed OK.  My wife said she liked it.

I'm a bit interested in a hybrid, not a full EV, but as little as we drive I'm not sure the extra cost is worth it.  I think some plug in hydrids get a tax credit.

In California or Hawaii, the equation might be different.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Mdot21 on October 05, 2023, 05:27:06 PM
I've been in a Model 3 and a Model S. The 3 sucks hard. The S was nice, but WAY too much money.
this is very true. the top of the line Model S is niiiiiiiiiiice. the model 3....kinda sucks.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on October 05, 2023, 05:36:10 PM
I don't think the model S is all that nice.  Certainly not as nice as the competitors that fall in its price range.  Fit and finish is.... pretty average.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on October 05, 2023, 05:40:08 PM
I don't think the model S is all that nice.  Certainly not as nice as the competitors that fall in its price range.  Fit and finish is.... pretty average.
I haven't ridden in one. However it's the one Tesla that actually looks good. The X is a nondescript bubble, the 3 is a platypus, and the Y is an obese platypus. 

And don't get me started on the stupid-ass Cybertruck. It makes the Mustang EV look stylish. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Mdot21 on October 05, 2023, 05:47:38 PM
I don't think the model S is all that nice.  Certainly not as nice as the competitors that fall in its price range.  Fit and finish is.... pretty average.
it's got far more performance than an S class or 7 series. you aren't buying an S Class/7 Series that has 1,000+ hp and goes 0-60 in under 2 seconds and tops out at 200+ mph....

but in terms of the interior....you're right. the interiors on the older models used to be a lot nicer. it's pretty bleh now. especially with the fit and finishes the S Class/7 Series are putting out now.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on October 05, 2023, 05:49:17 PM
it's got far more performance than an S class or 7 series. you aren't buying an S Class/7 Series that has 1,000+ hp and goes 0-60 in under 2 seconds and tops out at 200+ mph....

but in terms of the interior....you're right. the interiors on the older models used to be a lot nicer. it's pretty bleh now. especially with the fit and finishes the S Class/7 Series are putting out now.
Yup that's my point.  I'm not talking about track performance.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on October 06, 2023, 08:03:48 AM
it's got far more performance than an S class or 7 series. you aren't buying an S Class/7 Series that has 1,000+ hp and goes 0-60 in under 2 seconds and tops out at 200+ mph....

but in terms of the interior....you're right. the interiors on the older models used to be a lot nicer. it's pretty bleh now. especially with the fit and finishes the S Class/7 Series are putting out now.
1. I'd rather have the S and drive 600 miles before needing to stop.

2. Don't know where I'd use that performance around here. And you definitely couldn't use it over there.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Mdot21 on October 06, 2023, 10:14:49 AM
1. I'd rather have the S and drive 600 miles before needing to stop.

2. Don't know where I'd use that performance around here. And you definitely couldn't use it over there.
agree on both counts.

Tesla needs to drastically up their game on the interiors of the Model S if they want to charge $100+k. It's almost like they just quit trying. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on October 09, 2023, 12:03:48 PM
How Long Can an Electric Car Idle in The Winter? - InsideHook (https://www.insidehook.com/article/vehicles/electric-car-12-hours-freezing-cold-test?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=keywee&kwp_0=2304272&kwp_4=6499215&kwp_1=2782798&fbclid=IwAR2uF2YY8XGjK76uDMbg5mzXfNe8UI76VSw-AFfNekuuMUClPQrqLEtempQ)

Here’s how the battery range held up in three-hour intervals:

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on October 09, 2023, 12:44:01 PM
not bad

a gasser idling for 12 hours might burn 2 or 3 gallons and lose 50 miles of range
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on October 09, 2023, 12:50:14 PM
Idling uses up to ½ gallon of fuel per hour (although it varies depending on the type and size of the engine). It may not seem like much, but idling for a few minutes everyday can cost you several dollars per week.

"up to" ...  that would mean 6 gallons of course, which could dry out a tank.  And some EVs out there would be low on range when they got caught.

Tow trucks will need to lug along a battery capable of charging EVs at some point, to 10-20 mile range.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on October 09, 2023, 01:04:14 PM
or they could simply tow the EV into a charging station
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on October 09, 2023, 02:22:59 PM
or they could simply tow the EV into a charging station
Generally I think that's more of a hassle.

Back when I had my Ford Ranger, I had an issue (unknown to me) come up with my gas gauge. It never registered <1/4 tank. So if I was empty, it said I had 1/4 tank of gas. You can guess how I discovered the issue (left stranded by the side of the road). 

A tow truck came by, as SoCal has these for stranded motorists to keep from impacting/causing traffic issues. I was 1/2 mi from the next exit where I could buy gas, but instead of trying to hook me up and tow me there, he just poured a gallon of gas in my tank and I was on my way. 

It'll generally be cheaper/easier to give someone enough gas / enough of a quick charge to get them on the road to the nearest gas station than to hook them up and tow them. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on October 09, 2023, 02:25:58 PM
Yeah, one could see stalled EVs out there needing a ten mile charge and one tow truck would service them fairly quickly, as opposed to towing.

A tow truck should be able to tote around a ~33 kWhr battery to get this done.  

When my plane had to be towed, it cost us $180.  In Indiana.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on October 09, 2023, 02:50:05 PM
I agree, but until the market balances itself, the towing company will probably just hit EVs with the more expensive towing charge
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on October 09, 2023, 03:04:38 PM
Initially, no doubt, eventually competition will weigh in I suspect.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 02, 2023, 11:11:18 AM
2024 Tesla Model 3 Standard Range vs. 2023 Toyota Prius Prime: Which Is the Better Starter EV? (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2023-toyota-prius-prime-vs-tesla-model-3-highland-standard-range-comparison-test-review/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AAMAG%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR1_skKLNK6VD6j0b6yBACwxZniAZbO_T2W8tU2M5veSG3YyFMHtZOPUxHc)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 06, 2023, 09:53:09 AM
2025 Volvo EX30 First Drive: A Hit in the Making (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2025-volvo-ex30-first-drive-review/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AAMAG%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR18km7cKt38Ur3JG4fMjWBHtt8eEjJhpvAnOdU-7ePkink-I-RKYCJH_R0)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 06, 2023, 09:59:18 AM
As I appear likely to be in the market for some kind of CUV next year, I was idly thinking about EVs.  They appear to cost about $10 K more than an ICE vehicle, roughly.  They do tend to offer better acceleration in most categories.

But say I get a Hyundai Tucson Hybrid, which is in the running, and it really gets 37 mpg.  If I drive it 6,000 miles a year, which is about right for us, I'd need 162 gallons of gasoline.  Around here, gas is fairly cheap, but it bounces around, let's say $3.50 per gallon, so $570 for gas, per year.  For folks who drive a more typical distance in a year, call it $1,000 in gas per year.

If charging an EV was free, you can see where I'm going with this (aside from any tax credit).  Maybe for a truck or heavy SUV that would get 16 mpg or so it starts to make more sense?  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MrNubbz on November 06, 2023, 10:04:30 AM
When my plane had to be towed, it cost us $180.  In Indiana.
Have to take a Balloon home?Wind power and all that
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 06, 2023, 10:08:25 AM
I called my ex.  My son was due at her house for dinner that day at 6 PM.  It was a beautiful November day and he was interested in flying.  I was showing him some navagational stuff and letting him fly it a bit, he was about 10.

I got her phone recording, so I said we'd had an incident, we were fine, but she'd need to pick us up at the airport.  I called from the sheriff's car and left a call back number for their department.  So, she called that number (no cell phone) and the dispatcher told her we had crash landed.

The deputy sheriff driving us was nice looking.  And friendly.

I later got calls from some lawyers wanting me to sue somebody.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MrNubbz on November 07, 2023, 12:10:23 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/u5QaXkM.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 07, 2023, 06:54:25 AM
The Ram 1500 Ramcharger will be a hybrid like a diesel locomotive | CNN Business (https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/07/business/stellantis-ramcharger/index.html)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 07, 2023, 09:25:44 AM
The Ram 1500 Ramcharger will be a hybrid like a diesel locomotive | CNN Business (https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/07/business/stellantis-ramcharger/index.html)
Makes a ton of sense for guys like @utee94 (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=15) who might ordinarily be in the market for an electric vehicle for daily driving but can't afford the range hit while towing on the weekends. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 07, 2023, 01:28:27 PM
Utee and I have mused about a Diesel electric truck.  A Diesel can be designed to be very efficient around 2200 RPM and run steadily there to power a generator.

The electric motors would have ample torque and ALSO a very gradual ability when it comes to applying power, they can be very sensitive, which is one reason trains use them.  Trains don't want to overdo it and spin wheels.

Now you have the torque of an EV and the range of a Diesel without adding too much battery size and weight.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 08, 2023, 08:44:41 AM
good luck with the marketing
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 08, 2023, 08:47:34 AM
Such a truck would have a niche market I suspect, at least at first.  But it sounds to me like a decent proposition for some.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 08, 2023, 08:51:17 AM
niche market = huge losses for the manufacturer
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 08, 2023, 08:53:03 AM
Generally speaking, yes, not in all cases though.  The EVs being pushed now are niche cars and the mfgs are mostly losing a ton on them, for now.

Tesla lost a ton early on too.

A good question is how fast EVs MAY become profitable more broadly.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 08, 2023, 08:57:43 AM
I've been looking pretty hard at CUVs (like the Honda CR-V) because my wife clearly wants one.  My choice at this point is a Hyundau Tucson Hybrid (which I have not driven).  My daughter had a Tuscon regular vehicle which I rode in briefly, seemed OK.

These things are larger than I prefer and not as fun to drive as the GTI, but whatever.  The above gets good fuel economy on regular gas and probably is "OK" and $40K.  I'll try and put it off as long as I can.

My wife has now blown two tires on the GTI in town hitting something.  It's not nearly as bad as the Caddy was, but it's not ideal either.  I looked at EVs, no way the math works for us.  I'd probably seriously look at the BMW X1 but it has two apparent flaws I couldn't live with.  Maybe they get fixed, maybe not.

I've noticed a few more EVs in our parking garages here, a Volvo and a Subaru recently.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 12, 2023, 08:35:43 AM
Tesla Model X Slides Down Boat Ramp, Ignites And Burns Underwater (newsbreak.com) (https://www.newsbreak.com/news/3224778571923-tesla-model-x-slides-down-boat-ramp-ignites-and-burns-underwater?_f=app_share&s=a3&share_destination_id=OTgyMDQ1NTQtMTY5OTc0MjQ4NTM5MQ%3D%3D&pd=06e3UQAY&hl=en_US&send_time=1699742485&actBtn=floatShareButton&trans_data={)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 12, 2023, 08:40:32 AM
It will be interesting if Toyota can realy deliver on their new battery technology.  Short of that, I think we're at least a decade away from seeing a lot of folks buying a pure EV.  Famiilies with two vehicles might get one so Dad can go to work.  I expect urban delivery vans to go EV sooner.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 12, 2023, 10:00:20 AM
It will be interesting if Toyota can realy deliver on their new battery technology.  Short of that, I think we're at least a decade away from seeing a lot of folks buying a pure EV.  Famiilies with two vehicles might get one so Dad can go to work.  I expect urban delivery vans to go EV sooner.
I don't know what it's like in Atlanta, but I see a LOT of folks buying pure EVs out here in Cali... Can't swing a dead cat without hitting a Model 3. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 12, 2023, 10:03:49 AM
much different cultures

EVs are for the left coast and Denver

other bastions of liberalism 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 12, 2023, 10:06:32 AM
I don't know what it's like in Atlanta, but I see a LOT of folks buying pure EVs out here in Cali... Can't swing a dead cat without hitting a Model 3.
We have a few here of course, but gas is running around $2.70 right now.  That's a factor of course.  I've seen five pure EVs in our garage, out of maybe 200 vehicles total.  Two are new, a Volvo and a Subaru.  There are a couple more PHEVs.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on November 12, 2023, 10:08:39 AM
I don't know what it's like in Atlanta, but I see a LOT of folks buying pure EVs out here in Cali... Can't swing a dead cat without hitting a Model 3.
Yeah... I'd say California isn't exactly "representative" when it comes to stuff like this.

Even here in liberal, high-tech Austin, where sales of EVs are comparatively strong, I'd still be surprised if it's more than 1/20 new cars being sold, are pure EV.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on November 12, 2023, 10:12:56 AM
Yeah... I'd say California isn't exactly "representative" when it comes to stuff like this.

Even here in liberal, high-tech Austin, where sales of EVs are comparatively strong, I'd still be surprised if it's more than 1/20 new cars being sold, are pure EV.



Some quick googling tells me that here in Texico for 2022(ish), new EV registrations were about 67,000 and total new cars sold were about 1.3 million, so that comes in right at 5% or 1/20.

Since I know rural Texas isn't buying... well... any, then I guess I'm wrong and the number in Austin must be at least slightly higher than 1/20. :)

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 12, 2023, 10:19:22 AM
The funny thing is I hear people from around the country say "I've never even seen a Rivian."

I see them all the time. Of course, their HQ is in Irvine, and it's possible they're all employee-owned vehicles. But I see them lol :57:

I see one driveway in my neighborhood walking the dog with two Rivians. One truck and one SUV. If I ever walk by while someone's outside, I might ask if they're Rivian employees... 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 12, 2023, 10:23:08 AM
[color=rgba(34,87,218,var(--tw-text-opacity))]Electric vehicles (EVs) (https://www.axios.com/energy-environment/electric-vehicles)[/url] accounted for nearly 9% of monthly new vehicle registrations in Atlanta in January 2023 — up from 5.5% in January 2022, Axios' Joann Muller reports.[/font][/size][/color]

You might think 9% is a large percentage, and it is, but Atlanta probably has over a million vehicles in the metro area.  I see different figures on new car sales, call it a quarter million.  So, 25,000 new EVs per year more or less would take a long time to replace 2 million plus ICE vehicles, and obviously the 9% probably will increase each year.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on November 12, 2023, 10:23:52 AM
I think I've seen... maybe one Rivian here in Austin?

Teslas are the most common EVs I see, but it could be just because I notice their unique styling.  It's possible that I'm seeing a lot of EV Toyotas or Hondas or whatever, and just can't tell, because they look like any other Toyota or Honda or whatever.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 12, 2023, 10:31:19 AM
I think I've seen... maybe one Rivian here in Austin?

Teslas are the most common EVs I see, but it could be just because I notice their unique styling.  It's possible that I'm seeing a lot of EV Toyotas or Hondas or whatever, and just can't tell, because they look like any other Toyota or Honda or whatever.
Both Honda and Toyota are late on the pure BEV train. I don't even really see them here. 

With the money around Austin, it wouldn't surprise me if you've seen a couple Audi E-Tron or Jaguar I-Pace and not even realized you were looking at an EV. They don't look like a platypus (Model 3) or a fat platypus (Model Y). 

Hyundai and Kia both have EVs as well. The Hyundai Ionic 5 would probably stand out to you as it's ugly as f**k and also weird-looking in a Blade Runner futuristic way that screams "EV". But the Kia EVs are actually sorta good looking. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Gigem on November 12, 2023, 10:53:33 AM
Quite a few Teslas around my local town of 30,000.  I usually see 3-4 or more per day. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 12, 2023, 10:56:07 AM
I noticed a new "Mustang" a week or so ago.
Only because the woman cut me off in traffic
might be an EV don't know
looked like many of the SUVs
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 12, 2023, 10:57:37 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/NVaAlA5.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 13, 2023, 11:46:39 AM
Electric Vehicles Owners Maybe Just Don't Drive As Much: New Study (roadandtrack.com) (https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a45822549/electric-vehicle-drive-less/?fbclid=IwAR1W9dX0DbLAkfBm1F6wg6iVbj5QtCsQJiyZCvNPQyNyDfXoVSA_XGqH9yI)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 17, 2023, 12:13:04 PM
Cadillac Optiq: New entry-level EV crossover (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2023/11/17/cadillac-optiq-entry-level-ev.html)

(https://i.imgur.com/JU7jG14.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MikeDeTiger on November 17, 2023, 01:08:56 PM
Maybe this has been addressed here already, but what does an average EV do to one's electric bill?  Say you drive 60 miles per day on average. 

And is it anywhere near feasible yet to take road trips with one of those things?  I don't notice a slew of charging stations everywhere--not that I'm looking for them--and I've heard it can take an hour or more to charge, which is completely untenable when traveling.  And how much does it cost to charge up at one of those station if you found one and had the time?  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 17, 2023, 01:18:45 PM
The answers vary a lot depending on where you live and how much your electricity costs.

As of February 2023, the average residential electricity rate in the U.S. is about 23 cents per kilowatt-hour (kWh).
Importantly, electricity rates can vary widely based on where you live. Rates vary from a low of 10.35 ¢ / kWh in Idaho to a high of 28.38 ¢ / kWh in California.


An EV uses about 33-34 kWhr to go 100 miles.  In your scenario, it would cost you about $4.50 on average to charge you car to home to drive 60 miles.  I pay about 13 cents per kWhr here, so it would be less of course.  Commercial chargers cost more than charging at home and vary all  over the map.


Gas around here is under $3 right now.  If you get 30 mpg, which is not uncommon, you'd be paying $6 with an ICE car obviously.  As for charging times needed, that depends a LOT on which kind of charger one is using.  A 110 volt outlet adds only about 3-4 miles of range per hour.  



Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MikeDeTiger on November 17, 2023, 01:43:49 PM
Looks like I'm paying 13.5 cents per kWh.  33-34 kWh for 100 miles = ~20 kWh per 60 miles, so * .135 = $2.70 to drive 60 miles. 

Currently, at ~35 mpg I need 1.71 gallons to go 60 miles.  Most used gas station for me is $2.46 today, so that's $4.22 to drive 60 miles.

If I figured that correctly, looks like an average EV would be cheaper, purely from a fueling up perspective.  No telling what kind of hidden or long-term costs may offset that or further increase the benefit. 

110 outlet needing an hour for every 3-4 miles of range is laughable, and it means I couldn't possibly keep the thing charged.  I'd need 210 hours per day.  I'm no math genius, but 210 hrs/day seems like a tough ask.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 17, 2023, 01:56:29 PM
Many folks use a 220 outlet, and I'd guess most use a "fast charger" specific item they add in their garage.  A 220v outlet will do 7-8 miles in an hour.  A fast charger can add 100 miles of range in 20-60 minutes, some do it in as little as 10 minutes.

With an EV you of course need no oil changes, and your brakes will last basically forever (which is also true for a hybrid).  Insurance costs may well be quite a bit higher.  Even a small ding can total the car if the battery pack is damaged.

At this point, I think a regular hybrid is a much better choice overall.  And most supercars are going to hybrids, including the Corvette E-Ray.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 17, 2023, 02:02:41 PM
the Lucid Air Dream Edition Range (https://insideevs.com/news/550025/lucid-air-fast-charging-review/), averaged 10.81 miles added per minute of charging from 0 to 80% and 2.86 miles per minute from 80% to 100%. However, you can buy five Bolt EVs for the price of one Lucid Air Dream Edition, so that has to be taken into consideration.  

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 17, 2023, 02:28:39 PM
Looks like I'm paying 13.5 cents per kWh.  33-34 kWh for 100 miles = ~20 kWh per 60 miles, so * .135 = $2.70 to drive 60 miles. 

Currently, at ~35 mpg I need 1.71 gallons to go 60 miles.  Most used gas station for me is $2.46 today, so that's $4.22 to drive 60 miles.

If I figured that correctly, looks like an average EV would be cheaper, purely from a fueling up perspective.  No telling what kind of hidden or long-term costs may offset that or further increase the benefit. 

110 outlet needing an hour for every 3-4 miles of range is laughable, and it means I couldn't possibly keep the thing charged.  I'd need 210 hours per day.  I'm no math genius, but 210 hrs/day seems like a tough ask. 
Yeah, depends a lot on where you live. Electricity is expensive here in CA, but then again so is gas (almost $5/gal). One advantage of home charging is that if you're on a time of use (ToU) rate plan, the bulk of home charging is done overnight when electricity is cheapest. 

From every Tesla owner I've talked to, road tripping is actually not that big of a deal. The car's software can plan out your charging stops based on a couple of things and do other things to make it more convenient:

I'm not sure other manufacturers have quite caught up with Tesla on this front. Which bothers me as I'd want to avoid Tesla if I go EV. But I'm not sure I road trip often enough to make a difference. 

Per your last point, almost nobody uses 110 to charge unless they barely drive. A Level 2 charger can be installed relatively inexpensively ($500-1K) if you already have 240V service in the garage. Generally almost anyone should be able to charge to 80% overnight with L2 charging.


Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 17, 2023, 02:43:15 PM
IMHO an EV can make a lot of sense for people if some of the following conditions exist:




I can say here in CA, I know a lot of happy EV owners and have heard few to zero horror stories. Probably the worst is (as CD alludes to) a guy who has a Model S and ran into a nightmare after an accident where Tesla couldn't get parts for their own car so he lived in loaners for months and months before Tesla had to basically total his Model S. But I consider that a Tesla mismanagement problem, not an EV problem. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 17, 2023, 03:17:53 PM
The accident thing is real.  Damage to the battery pack usually means the car is totaled, where an ICE vehicle might need a $2 K repair.  I infer insurance costs are higher.

The other type that could use an EV is a traditional 2 car family where mom drives a minivan and Dad uses the EV to go to work and back.

The Chevy Bolt would be decent for that situation, and I read they are going to continue making an updated version of it.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 17, 2023, 05:06:48 PM
you really have to be motivated to save the planet to drive one of these


(https://media.ed.edmunds-media.com/chevrolet/bolt-ev/2023/oem/2023_chevrolet_bolt-ev_4dr-hatchback_2lt_fq_oem_1_600.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 17, 2023, 05:13:28 PM
you really have to be motivated to save the planet to drive one of these


(https://media.ed.edmunds-media.com/chevrolet/bolt-ev/2023/oem/2023_chevrolet_bolt-ev_4dr-hatchback_2lt_fq_oem_1_600.jpg)
Yeah, I think the only good-looking Tesla is the Model S, and the Model 3 is hideous. But it's better than this. 

And this is trash:

(https://i.imgur.com/kLhFnaZ.jpg)

And it looks even worse in person. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 17, 2023, 05:16:34 PM
not just the look

I'd love to see you try to get in and then back out of the backseat of the Bolt
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 17, 2023, 05:39:49 PM
not just the look

I'd love to see you try to get in and then back out of the backseat of the Bolt
I'm not sure I could get in and out of the front seat. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 17, 2023, 05:46:09 PM
it also seems that a person would have to drive many many miles in an EV charging at home to break even on the financial equation

especially with gas prices finally dropping
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 18, 2023, 05:53:19 AM
Yup, even with the tax credit.  The newer hybrids often offer better acceleration and better fuel economy.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 18, 2023, 06:39:12 AM
Looks like I'm paying 13.5 cents per kWh.  33-34 kWh for 100 miles = ~20 kWh per 60 miles, so * .135 = $2.70 to drive 60 miles. 

Currently, at ~35 mpg I need 1.71 gallons to go 60 miles.  Most used gas station for me is $2.46 today, so that's $4.22 to drive 60 miles.

If I figured that correctly, looks like an average EV would be cheaper, purely from a fueling up perspective.  No telling what kind of hidden or long-term costs may offset that or further increase the benefit. 

110 outlet needing an hour for every 3-4 miles of range is laughable, and it means I couldn't possibly keep the thing charged.  I'd need 210 hours per day.  I'm no math genius, but 210 hrs/day seems like a tough ask. 
A new battery for an electric car is a hulluva lot more $$$ than a new battery for a gas car.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 18, 2023, 06:41:39 AM
EV batteries apparently last the basic life of the vehicle, one way or the other, barring an accident.

The Tesla batteries last quite a long time apparently.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 18, 2023, 06:43:23 AM
I'm thinking about looking into hybrids. 

Who makes them these days? 

Any good ones that are NOT ugly?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 18, 2023, 06:48:01 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/KI3fqXr.png)

The 2023 Ferrari 296 GTS—we drive Ferrari’s plug-in hybrid convertible | Ars Technica (https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/12/the-2023-ferrari-296-gts-we-drive-ferraris-plug-in-hybrid-convertible/)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 18, 2023, 07:00:59 AM
How about practical?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 18, 2023, 07:14:29 AM
Best Hybrid SUVs for 2023 & 2024 - Road & Track (roadandtrack.com) (https://www.roadandtrack.com/rankings/g44693807/best-hybrid-suvs/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=dda_ga_rt_md_bm_prog_org_us_g44693807&gclid=Cj0KCQiA3uGqBhDdARIsAFeJ5r0t0vu7_QERDuJ9_RglFWCkFSFGG7Q78bg4dxteSfxX1K9ZNGYMRQgaAqD3EALw_wcB)

These are mostly PHEVs.  I'm looking at the Hyundai Tucson hybrid.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 18, 2023, 07:33:36 AM
Volvo looks good to me.

Does M-B not do hybrids? They seem to be all-in on EV these days.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 18, 2023, 07:45:02 AM
2023 Mercedes-Benz GLC 300 4Matic Hybrid Review: Fuel-Sipping Luxury | GearJunkie (https://gearjunkie.com/motors/2023-mercedes-benz-glc-300-4matic-hybrid-review)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 18, 2023, 07:49:47 AM
Certified 2021 Volvo XC60 Recharge Plug-In Hybrid T8 Inscription Expression For Sale $40,900 | Cars.com (https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/e082b607-78f4-4dbe-b6a5-47a19d96ccd9/?attribution_type=se_rp)

Not bad.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 18, 2023, 08:04:58 AM
2023 MERCEDES GLC SUV 300 e 4MATIC PLUG-IN HYBRID 313 HP POV TEST DRIVE - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2LkBHttd4Q)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 18, 2023, 08:06:34 AM
2023 Mercedes-Benz GLC to Start from $48,250 (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a43260324/2023-mercedes-benz-glc-pricing-revealed/)

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 18, 2023, 08:36:14 AM
What is a "mild hybrid" drive?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 18, 2023, 08:49:46 AM
While a full hybrid can drive on battery power alone and operate in fuel efficient, zero emissions mode up to 62% of the time on average (due to its powerful battery), a mild hybrid cannot drive on pure battery alone and therefore delivers considerably fewer benefits than a full hybrid.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 18, 2023, 08:50:48 AM
The "full hydrids" tend to be plug in hybrids (PHEVs).  The cost IMHO is not worth going to PHEV.

Regular hybrids usually excel at city fuel economy because they recover energy in braking.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 18, 2023, 09:27:18 AM
What's a mild hybrid? And how's it different to a full hybrid? | Top Gear (https://www.topgear.com/car-news/hybrid/whats-mild-hybrid-and-hows-it-different-full-hybrid)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 18, 2023, 09:58:18 AM
it also seems that a person would have to drive many many miles in an EV charging at home to break even on the financial equation

especially with gas prices finally dropping
What BEV and what ICEV vehicles are you using as the basis of this economic comparison?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 18, 2023, 10:31:14 AM
all of them

the upfront cost seems high for electrics, and then insurance
not so sure about trade/resell value / depreciation 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 18, 2023, 10:41:14 AM
all of them

the upfront cost seems high for electrics, and then insurance
not so sure about trade/resell value / depreciation
Lowest price Model 3 brand new on the Tesla web site for existing inventory is a shade over $36K. Drop the $7500 tax credit on that and it's a net of $28.5K. That's the same as a base model Camry Hybrid. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 18, 2023, 10:52:27 AM
Lowest price Model 3 brand new on the Tesla web site for existing inventory is a shade over $36K. Drop the $7500 tax credit on that and it's a net of $28.5K. That's the same as a base model Camry Hybrid.

Except it's not the same.

The Model 3 interior sucks. The seats suck. Getting in and out sucks (I'm 5-9). Forget about the back seats. The ride sucks.

The Camry is a very comfortable, nice-riding car.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 18, 2023, 10:57:50 AM
how bout the Camry gasser?

the $7500 credit... is that a federal thing or better in Cali than some states?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 18, 2023, 12:09:19 PM
Except it's not the same.

The Model 3 interior sucks. The seats suck. Getting in and out sucks (I'm 5-9). Forget about the back seats. The ride sucks.

The Camry is a very comfortable, nice-riding car.
Hell, I compared a Tesla to a Toyota as an insult to Tesla owners who think they should be compared to BMW...

I didn't know I was insulting Toyota by comparing them to Tesla... :57:

how bout the Camry gasser?

the $7500 credit... is that a federal thing or better in Cali than some states?
Federal.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 18, 2023, 02:13:11 PM
hah, and folks don't like subsidies for ethanol
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 18, 2023, 02:22:34 PM
Hell, I compared a Tesla to a Toyota as an insult to Tesla owners who think they should be compared to BMW...

I didn't know I was insulting Toyota by comparing them to Tesla... :57:
Federal.
I've driven both as rentals. No comparison. Tesla sucks.

Even the S.

No comparison to and M-B S class or BMW 7 series - or even the E class or 5 series.

Not even close.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 19, 2023, 05:43:29 AM
I rode in a Tesla X, the SUV-like version.  My son had rented it for a trip.  My wife liked it.  I thought it was decent, they are spartan inside, which is OK with me  The fit and finish looked OK, I didn't inspect it closely.  It seemed to ride OK, the low CoG helps some with handling.  I didn't drive it.

As noted above, EVs so far are not really good values, even with the $7500.  And sales now are showing this to be the case.  I think Toyota and Honda made better strategic decisions than Ford/GM, maybe this changes in a few years.  The latter two are investing a ton of money on a risky EV bet, though they may be slowing that down now.

Were I one of them, I think I'd focus on building a CUV (compact utility vehicle) like a Bolt and the pickup truck and van, making the latter more basic "work truck" models.  Then I'd try and continue with cars like the CT4 V Blackwing with a manual.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 19, 2023, 06:16:44 AM
SparkCharge "Electric Jerry Can" Makes DC Fast Charging Portable (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/features/sparkcharge-roadie-portable-ev-fast-charger/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AMT%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR1LcZNGb7ZYmlsoab1MENvncXQCxw0FDGt8UZFztoU3bv3Gd6ERbTacXYY)

 a four-stack of Roadie batteries can add 60-70 miles to a single vehicle (in about an hour) or dispense 10 miles of range to seven different EVs. One caveat—the system will not charge a car above 80 percent, because the charging rate plunges at that point.

The Volt subscription costs $25 per month, which covers two charges, each of which comes with a delivery fee of $9.99. The Jolt plan costs $60 for four charges and a $5.99 delivery fee. Finally, the Bolt Subscription runs $80 for six charges plus $5.99 delivery.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 19, 2023, 08:39:47 AM
more expensive than the original Jerry Can
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 19, 2023, 08:40:37 AM
Then I'd try and continue with cars like the CT4 V Blackwing with a manual.
and a LARGE Sedan
with big tailfins
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 19, 2023, 08:56:35 AM
more expensive than the original Jerry Can
Yeah, looked pricey to me, but at least is an example of how EVs can be recharged if they run out completely.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 19, 2023, 08:59:21 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/RrYWPGJ.jpg)

put some batteries in this.....
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 20, 2023, 07:05:48 AM
2024 Chevy Equinox EV Starts Under $35,000, and Qualifies for Federal Tax Credit (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/2024-chevy-equinox-ev-price-msrp/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AMT%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR1eAp4HrsOMkLc7ir54hcTCg36Q69bxWTvqqNrP-yCoPyMR78JCpvhf6wk)

When the upcoming all-new Equinox EV was announced last September, Chevy promised the base model would offer 210 horsepower, 242 lb-ft of torque, and an estimated 250 miles of range for a price that would be "around $30,000." Today, Chevy has confirmed the 1LT will start at $34,995 (including destination and freight charges but not taxes), but is withholding further content and packaging details. It's safe to assume that pricing is for the base, front-wheel drive 1LT trim, with a more expensive all-wheel drive 1LT version also likely to be offered.

(https://i.imgur.com/rO2C7iV.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 20, 2023, 09:16:32 AM
well, technically $34,995 is under $35K

the gasser???
$26,600† 
Starting MSRP

$8395 will buy some gasoline and oli changes
and you don't need to rewire the garage
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 20, 2023, 09:23:26 AM
The other issue is it probably won't be $35 K when it actually becomes available.  You would get the $7500 tax credit, so that makes up some difference.

But we've all noted the gas savings isn't that great in most places.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 20, 2023, 09:26:18 AM
How much energy goes into making the batteries, what is the energy source, and what is the energy to ship them here from the CCP?

I've read elsewhere that it can take up to 7 years before an EV becomes carbon-neutral.

Just in time to buy a new battery.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 20, 2023, 09:30:06 AM
of all the folks railing against the green new deal and throwing money uselessly at a problem

I don't hear of much push to eliminate the $7500 credit

I suppose there is an end date when it expires, although a quick google search didn't show one.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 20, 2023, 09:33:59 AM
Ultium batteries are assembled in the US (GM).  I don't know how much energy is needed to make them.  The Tesla battery packs are lasting over 200 K miles (usually).

Because EVs are dirtier to build but cleaner to drive, Woodley explained, they must meet certain mileage thresholds before environmental advantages are realized. In the U.S., the typical non-luxury EV needs to log between 28,069 and 68,160 miles before netting any emissions benefits.Aug 28, 2023

When buying an EV increases your carbon footprint — Harvard Gazette (https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2023/08/when-buying-an-ev-increases-your-carbon-footprint/#:~:text=Because EVs are dirtier to,before netting any emissions benefits.)

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 20, 2023, 09:34:03 AM
The $7500 credit is garbage for those of us taxpayers who will not buy EV's.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 20, 2023, 09:35:33 AM
The tax benefit, which was recently modified by the Inflation Reduction Act for years 2023 through 2032, allows for a maximum credit of $7,500 for new EVs, and up to $4,000, limited to 30% of the sale price, for used EVs.

EV Tax Credit 2023-2024: How It Works, What Qualifies - NerdWallet (https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/taxes/ev-tax-credit-electric-vehicle-tax-credit)

One plug in hybrid gets the credit.  Nothing else.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 20, 2023, 09:35:36 AM
Ultium batteries are assembled in the US (GM).  I don't know how much energy is needed to make them.  The Tesla battery packs are lasting over 200 K miles (usually).

Because EVs are dirtier to build but cleaner to drive, Woodley explained, they must meet certain mileage thresholds before environmental advantages are realized. In the U.S., the typical non-luxury EV needs to log between 28,069 and 68,160 miles before netting any emissions benefits.Aug 28, 2023

When buying an EV increases your carbon footprint — Harvard Gazette (https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2023/08/when-buying-an-ev-increases-your-carbon-footprint/#:~:text=Because EVs are dirtier to,before netting any emissions benefits.)


We drive about 6-8K miles per year.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 20, 2023, 09:36:00 AM
The tax benefit, which was recently modified by the Inflation Reduction Act for years 2023 through 2032, allows for a maximum credit of $7,500 for new EVs, and up to $4,000, limited to 30% of the sale price, for used EVs.
Hybrids?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 20, 2023, 09:37:00 AM
The $7500 credit is garbage for those of us taxpayers who will not buy EV's.
It's also a regressive "tax", because very few lower income people will buy an EV.  It's mostly for the better off folks.  There is a $4000 credit for used EVs.

And it's a subsidy for GM et al.  They can price EVs with that in mind.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 20, 2023, 09:37:26 AM
How much energy goes into making the batteries, what is the energy source, and what is the energy to ship them here from the CCP?

I've read elsewhere that it can take up to 7 years before an EV becomes carbon-neutral.

Just in time to buy a new battery.
great questions for why the Gov would give tax credits for a something
but for me, being selfish.....
What is cheaper to operate  for a 5 year or 10 year period?
Total cost of ownership
Can I save $1000 in 5 years and $2000 in 10 years?
or will it cost me more to operate an EV?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 20, 2023, 09:40:15 AM
At this point in time, I would NOT buy an EV.  I would think about a plugin hybrid, though they cost a lot more than regular hybrids.  My GUESS is that in a decade or so, EVs will start to look appealing overall, infrastructure is better, batteries are better, etc.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 20, 2023, 09:48:01 AM
typical non-luxury EV needs to log between 28,069 and 68,160 miles before netting any emissions benefits.

I would hope this takes into account the percentage of coal powered generation
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 20, 2023, 09:55:39 AM
I think this whole thing is a scam. Sorry.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 20, 2023, 10:03:00 AM
you're not really sorry
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 20, 2023, 10:06:28 AM
I don't view it as any kind of scam, EVs in general.  I think we're headed in that direction, it's just not NOW, except for the early adopter types.  It's not going to "save the world" from CC of course.  It will eventually cut demand for oil globally, estimates are peak oil usage will be 2030.  That means less demand and perhaps lower prices, though oil producers see it coming also.

Still, the EIA projects half the cars in the US will still be ICE by 2050.  That's probably about right.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 20, 2023, 10:55:23 AM
great questions for why the Gov would give tax credits for a something
but for me, being selfish.....
What is cheaper to operate  for a 5 year or 10 year period?
Total cost of ownership
Can I save $1000 in 5 years and $2000 in 10 years?
or will it cost me more to operate an EV?
You're gonna have to do the math yourself. Lot of variables:


Generally BEVs are cheaper to operate. However whether you'll actually save money would require you to look at specific vehicles and price points you'd be looking into, and whether the operation costs are going to be enough to have a net benefit for your own specific use case. 

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 20, 2023, 11:09:49 AM
I think this whole thing is a scam. Sorry.
I think you have to decouple BEVs from the gov't actions around BEVs. 

The people I know with BEVs love them. They don't think they're a scam. 

Many talk about one of the un-heralded advantage of BEVs... If you charge at home, you pretty much never have to think about "fueling" your vehicle. Far from "range anxiety", one Tesla owner was talking about how he was driving his wife's ICEV one day and how annoying it was to get into it and realize 10 minutes into his drive that it was low on gas and he was going to have to fill it just to complete basic errands that day. With a BEV, you get home, plug it in, and it's ready to go the next morning. For most owners, you only have to think about charging if you're taking a road trip. 

On top of that, there are technical advantages. Electric motors offer better low-end torque than gas engines. Power on tap whenever you need it. They're mechanically less complex than gas engines. Regen braking means you wear out brakes less often, and there is generally less scheduled maintenance for a BEV. Batteries are heavy, but because you can make the packs modular it gives you more freedom in where you place weight in a vehicle and usually leads to lower CoG which reduces roll while cornering. 

Are there also downsides? Yes. But BEVs in general are no scam. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 20, 2023, 11:10:04 AM
I obviously have my doubts that an EV can even break even with my own math

I'll sit back and wait until it becomes apparent that I'd be foolish to be driving a gasser

and by 2050 I won't be doing much driving - mostly short trips to doctors and such
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 20, 2023, 11:11:22 AM
With a BEV, you get home, plug it in, and it's ready to go the next morning. For most owners, you only have to think about charging if you're taking a road trip.
well, you do need to remember to plug it in
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 20, 2023, 11:19:05 AM
I obviously have my doubts that an EV can even break even with my own math

I'll sit back and wait until it becomes apparent that I'd be foolish to be driving a gasser

and by 2050 I won't be doing much driving - mostly short trips to doctors and such
Fair enough. As I've mentioned, when I was last looking at a vehicle (2017) there wasn't a suitable EV for my use case (3 row seating for a family) in my price point, and there wasn't sufficient EV infrastructure to do it. And renting, I wasn't going to install an L2 charger in my landlord's house. And I don't like Tesla, so given that they were pretty much the only game in town, it made no sense. 

My next vehicle purchase will probably be around 2027, when kids start leaving the nest. By that time most of my concerns about the EV market will no longer be true. My vehicle needs will have changed so I have more flexibility in what I buy (i.e. no need for three rows). Infrastructure (esp. in CA) will be plentiful, not only for Tesla, but for other brands. Frankly I think it already is. The other brands on the market should have more maturity so I can legitimately avoid Tesla and still have multiple good options. 

Will I ultimately go BEV? I don't know. It'll largely be an economic calculation, and if I'm still working from home most of the time, I won't be putting on enough miles that I think the economics will matter much. If I'm commuting every day, or if I change something job-wise that means my responsibilities require even more driving than that? Well then it might make more sense. 

But I find most people railing against EVs are rolling out tired, old, scare tactics. Being in California and seeing *SO* many of them on the road (and knowing many BEV owners), those tactics don't ring true. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 20, 2023, 11:22:53 AM
well, you do need to remember to plug it in
Yes, but it also depends how much you drive. If you are driving say 50 miles a day on average, you actually may only "need" to plug in once or twice a week. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 20, 2023, 11:25:33 AM
yup, that's why a person may forget.
Just like forgetting to fill up at the gas station

EVs and gassers are very similar - just different fuel

being stranded in a frozen traffic jam in a gasser that runs out of fuel gets just as cold just as fast as an EV that runs out of charge
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 20, 2023, 11:37:17 AM
But I find most people railing against EVs are rolling out tired, old, scare tactics. Being in California and seeing *SO* many of them on the road (and knowing many BEV owners), those tactics don't ring true.
While anecdotal, they are drinking the Kool-Aid IMO.

I know EV owners who wish they weren't. Both here and in Illinois/Wisconsin.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 20, 2023, 11:42:33 AM
yup, that's why a person may forget.
Just like forgetting to fill up at the gas station

EVs and gassers are very similar - just different fuel

being stranded in a frozen traffic jam in a gasser that runs out of fuel gets just as cold just as fast as an EV that runs out of charge
Ahh. Well if we're arguing about saving people from their own stupidity, it's going to be a LONG discussion in this country. There's a lot of it to go around.

The only time in my life that I've run out of gas was the day that I realized my gas gauge didn't work--it would register 1/4 tank all the way from when the truck had 1/4 tank down to when the tank was empty. That was a malfunction, not forgetfulness.

In fact, since that day I never ran out of gas again--despite the fact that I never fixed the gauge and so the truck never gave me a "low fuel" light on the dashboard. I just had to remember to refill shortly after the gauge reached 1/4 tank, which I unfailingly did.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 20, 2023, 11:50:34 AM
While anecdotal, they are drinking the Kool-Aid IMO.

I know EV owners who wish they weren't. Both here and in Illinois/Wisconsin.
Perhaps some are drinking the Kool-Aid. IMO Tesla owners can sometimes be as fanatical about the brand as Apple folks. Sometimes when you talk yourself into something (especially given the size of an EV purchase) you become attached and rationalize it instead of admitting you're wrong. And Tesla haters (of which I sorta am one) can be as fanatical the opposite way as Android folks. 

I'm sure IL/WI are well behind CA when it comes to EV infrastructure. And while that might be problematic for Tesla owners, the fact that Tesla is well ahead in infrastructure build-out would mean that it's MUCH more problematic for non-Tesla owners. So that might color the experience somewhat. 

But I would say that 99% of EV criticism I hear comes from people who have never owned an EV (and often vow they never will so you could legitimately call them anti-EV), not from regretful EV owners or former owners. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MikeDeTiger on November 20, 2023, 12:08:17 PM
I only know one EV owner.  Wife's ex has a Tesla, which I don't think he uses very much.  He is by most metrics "wealthy" and like much of what he owns, he bought a Tesla because he can, and because he thought it would be cool.  No idea how he likes it, but again, I don't think he uses it much.  If the battery gets damaged and he had to buy another one or just total it and move on, he wouldn't care. 

Thus, in my little sphere, that's who can have an EV.  Sure ain't me. 

When I visit Austin, I see quite a few Teslas on the road.  Of course, there are quite a few wealthy people in Austin, but I suspect not all the drivers I see are wealthy, but rather people who for one reason or another decided that's what they needed.  But I will say that in my experience, many, many, many people don't manage their money wisely and a lot of those people who aren't wealthy, it wouldn't surprise me to learn they shouldn't be driving Teslas, but in a place like Austin you're going to get more people ideologically attached to that whether they can reasonably afford it or not. 

And also, Apple users are a cult, and Android is superior.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 20, 2023, 12:08:34 PM
"Early adopters" tend usually to be missionaries for their product.  I've talked to a few EV owners and they get a bit over the top, I think, with their praise of it.  The acceleration is often noted as "great", which is nice of course.

We here know the downsides, and apparently GM and Ford and others lose heavily on every one they sell.  Then you have the $7500, which really is a gift to the car makers.  If I lived in CA, I'd be more interested sooner.  But the math really doesn't work well for most of us, and I don't know what insurance is going to end up being.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 20, 2023, 12:09:09 PM
I've rented them - Hertz has a push for that. I'd never buy one as the result of my 3 experiences. 3 strikes, ya know?

Last rental I did I hybrid and came away pleased. It was a small Toyota SUV.

This coming rental (in December) will be the same, or equal.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 20, 2023, 12:10:12 PM

And also, Apple users are a cult, and Android is superior. 
You are correct.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 20, 2023, 12:10:24 PM
And also, Apple users are a cult, and Android is superior. 
Amen!
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MikeDeTiger on November 20, 2023, 12:12:28 PM
You are correct.

It's not even a debate.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on November 20, 2023, 12:26:25 PM
EV drivers and Apple cultists and Crossfit people are all basically the same people.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 20, 2023, 12:28:14 PM
and those pelaton freaks
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MikeDeTiger on November 20, 2023, 12:31:44 PM
EV drivers and Apple cultists and Crossfit people are all basically the same people.

Reminds of a joke I heard:

A vegan, an atheist, a crossfitter, and a Texan walk into a bar.  I know this because they all told me within 5 minutes.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 20, 2023, 12:36:50 PM
My wife is a devotee of reformer pilates, as I've mentioned before, and she prosetylizes about that to all in hearing range, not just pilates, but reformer pilates.

She gave lessons to me as a birthday present, and I gave it a go for a bit.  She goes three times a week, private lessons.  

I used to be that way about synthetic oil at times.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 20, 2023, 01:26:18 PM
I only know one EV owner.  Wife's ex has a Tesla, which I don't think he uses very much.  He is by most metrics "wealthy" and like much of what he owns, he bought a Tesla because he can, and because he thought it would be cool.  No idea how he likes it, but again, I don't think he uses it much.  If the battery gets damaged and he had to buy another one or just total it and move on, he wouldn't care. 

Thus, in my little sphere, that's who can have an EV.  Sure ain't me. 

When I visit Austin, I see quite a few Teslas on the road.  Of course, there are quite a few wealthy people in Austin, but I suspect not all the drivers I see are wealthy, but rather people who for one reason or another decided that's what they needed.  But I will say that in my experience, many, many, many people don't manage their money wisely and a lot of those people who aren't wealthy, it wouldn't surprise me to learn they shouldn't be driving Teslas, but in a place like Austin you're going to get more people ideologically attached to that whether they can reasonably afford it or not. 

And also, Apple users are a cult, and Android is superior. 
Yeah, a lot of people shouldn't be driving Lexus or BMW or Mercs either... As I've mentioned, in TOO many cases you have people leasing these cars because they want to drive a nicer car than they can legitimately afford. 

Oh and agree with you on Android. 

"Early adopters" tend usually to be missionaries for their product.  I've talked to a few EV owners and they get a bit over the top, I think, with their praise of it.  The acceleration is often noted as "great", which is nice of course.

We here know the downsides, and apparently GM and Ford and others lose heavily on every one they sell.  Then you have the $7500, which really is a gift to the car makers.  If I lived in CA, I'd be more interested sooner.  But the math really doesn't work well for most of us, and I don't know what insurance is going to end up being.
Agreed re: early adopters. It's like converts to anything, be it religion, lifestyle (i.e. veganism), politics, etc. It's easy to have the rose-colored glasses on. And I'm not surprised by losses... You're making large fixed investments in your infrastructure to support BEV and you (in early segments) have to amortize the investments against very limited sales. OF COURSE you're going to lose money, at least net, for a while. The real question is what is the gross profit on any given vehicle if you're only counting actual direct input costs, and not overhead? 

I do think the people here overstate the downsides. That doesn't mean the math works out for individual use cases, of course. But I think a lot of people here take a blanket negative approach to EVs that I don't understand the justification.

I've rented them - Hertz has a push for that. I'd never buy one as the result of my 3 experiences. 3 strikes, ya know?

Last rental I did I hybrid and came away pleased. It was a small Toyota SUV.

This coming rental (in December) will be the same, or equal.
I've never driven a Tesla. Like you, I think of them as a wannabe luxury brand (due to EV price point) with the fit & finish and quality control of a Yugo. It's the reason I don't really see myself considering a Tesla if I go BEV in a couple years. I think Musk is a charlatan and they're a disruptor but still not all that great of an automaker. I also wouldn't touch Rivian, or Lucid (not that I can afford Lucid). 

I want to see what the real automakers actually have come up with by then. They're all a little behind Tesla on the technology learning curve IMHO, but I think once they get there they'll put out better products than Tesla is capable of. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 20, 2023, 01:29:54 PM
and those pelaton freaks
Hey, I do mostly try to keep that one to myself lol...

I've mentioned it a few times, but I haven't been proselytizing... 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 20, 2023, 01:30:47 PM
One of my pet peeves was seeing drivers in some BMW driving it like they would a Honda Accord.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: GopherRock on November 20, 2023, 01:32:36 PM
My work phone is an iPhone. Trying to use it is like trying to write Japanese in Russian.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 20, 2023, 01:40:57 PM
I had an Android phone, which was fine.  My step son works for Apple and got me an iPhone, which also works fine.

My wife is an iPhone 14 and its camera is quite good.  I think it works fine also.

I never answer a phone call unless the caller is on my list.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MikeDeTiger on November 20, 2023, 01:42:16 PM
I do think the people here overstate the downsides. That doesn't mean the math works out for individual use cases, of course. But I think a lot of people here take a blanket negative approach to EVs that I don't understand the justification.
I've never driven a Tesla. Like you, I think of them as a wannabe luxury brand (due to EV price point) with the fit & finish and quality control of a Yugo. It's the reason I don't really see myself considering a Tesla if I go BEV in a couple years. I think Musk is a charlatan and they're a disruptor but still not all that great of an automaker. I also wouldn't touch Rivian, or Lucid (not that I can afford Lucid).

Elsewhere you wrote that Tesla is ahead of other EVs in most areas, so I'm curious why you think Musk/Tesla are hucksters.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 20, 2023, 04:26:50 PM
Elsewhere you wrote that Tesla is ahead of other EVs in most areas, so I'm curious why you think Musk/Tesla are hucksters. 
Good question. I can see why it seems contradictory. 

First, it's not so much Tesla. It's Musk. Some of what I see as Tesla's issues are partly due to Musk's leadership, but overall I think Tesla has a bunch of fine engineers who are working hard. And it's based on their work that Tesla has the first-mover advantage in EVs that they have, despite Musk getting the credit. And I think it's some of the things Musk has been doing that could squander that first-mover advantage once the big boys enter the chat. 

I'd say the biggest thing with Musk is that you never know whether what comes out of his mouth will happen. What you DO know is that it won't happen on the timeline he's promising. Or that it'll live up to his billing (i.e. full self driving, which is still a pipe dream). All I have to do is count the number of Tesla robotaxis on the road (hint: it's zero) to point that out. And how are those solar roofs going? Hyperloop anyone? 

And then there's the fact that he's basically a little boy with a billionaire's budget, and some of his decisions are screwing up the first-mover advantage. I.e. who in their right mind wants a Cybertruck? It's like he's an 8 year old who drew it on a napkin with the Delorean (not a model for successful automaking lol) as inspiration. If he wanted to make a truck, focus on a truck you can actually manufacture, and put it on a timeline that will actually beat the alternative instead of being years behind Rivian and falling behind Ford of all companies. 

From a business perspective, Musk seemingly started with the idea that everything legacy automakers do is stupid, and he was going to reinvent the wheel. A lot of the issues with Teslas from a repair/insurability standpoint IMHO has to do with the fact that he took a completely different approach to supply chain than other automakers. "Move fast and break stuff" is great in tech--it's not so great when you have to get parts for a car that you built 4 years ago that you chose lowest-cost suppliers who didn't have the embedded/industrial supply chain mentality and would commit to long product life cycles. So now you have a car you can't repair because you changed things every 3 months. That was fine in startup mode, but eventually you have to grow up and realize that a lot of the stuff legacy automakers do is not because they're stupid, or obsolete, or aren't thinking right--they do it because they know their business model. And some of it is BS too. "Look everyone, we have a tablet in our car!" Great, something that you can't control anything in the car w/o *looking* at a touchscreen and navigating menus. That's safe to do when driving! Touchscreens are one of my pet peeves in cars lol...

I will give Musk credit. I don't think the EV market would be where it is if not for him. He built that first-mover advantage by attacking a market before it was really viable, and just brute-forcing his way in. He pushed to not only high volume manufacturing, but profitability. Which was questionable whether they'd get there a few years ago. Heck, at one point on this very board (~2019 IIRC) I spoke of them having a liquidity crisis and needing a capital raise just a few months after saying they had plenty of capital--and the way you could tell it was a crisis was the terms they had to meet to get the money. And they weathered the storm and they're viable right now. 

But for all the ways he bills Tesla as a tech company and not an automaker, he doesn't have a defensible technology moat. He's not vertically integrated in batteries, and most of the tech seems to be Panasonic's, not Tesla's. Full self driving doesn't appear to be on a timeline where he's going to win there. He's late on a truck. His semi tractor is still a prototype. He's full of a lot of promises, and promises are great when you have no competition. But the competition has come to the party, and they're starting to replace his vaporware with actual products. 

Tesla has a lead because they have good people, and because they had a head start. But without a defensible technology moat, better-capitalized companies that REALLY know how to make cars are going to quickly close that lead. And what happens to Tesla at that point?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 20, 2023, 05:07:17 PM
Good question. I can see why it seems contradictory.

First, it's not so much Tesla. It's Musk. Some of what I see as Tesla's issues are partly due to Musk's leadership, but overall I think Tesla has a bunch of fine engineers who are working hard. And it's based on their work that Tesla has the first-mover advantage in EVs that they have, despite Musk getting the credit. And I think it's some of the things Musk has been doing that could squander that first-mover advantage once the big boys enter the chat.

I'd say the biggest thing with Musk is that you never know whether what comes out of his mouth will happen. What you DO know is that it won't happen on the timeline he's promising. Or that it'll live up to his billing (i.e. full self driving, which is still a pipe dream). All I have to do is count the number of Tesla robotaxis on the road (hint: it's zero) to point that out. And how are those solar roofs going? Hyperloop anyone?

And then there's the fact that he's basically a little boy with a billionaire's budget, and some of his decisions are screwing up the first-mover advantage. I.e. who in their right mind wants a Cybertruck? It's like he's an 8 year old who drew it on a napkin with the Delorean (not a model for successful automaking lol) as inspiration. If he wanted to make a truck, focus on a truck you can actually manufacture, and put it on a timeline that will actually beat the alternative instead of being years behind Rivian and falling behind Ford of all companies.

From a business perspective, Musk seemingly started with the idea that everything legacy automakers do is stupid, and he was going to reinvent the wheel. A lot of the issues with Teslas from a repair/insurability standpoint IMHO has to do with the fact that he took a completely different approach to supply chain than other automakers. "Move fast and break stuff" is great in tech--it's not so great when you have to get parts for a car that you built 4 years ago that you chose lowest-cost suppliers who didn't have the embedded/industrial supply chain mentality and would commit to long product life cycles. So now you have a car you can't repair because you changed things every 3 months. That was fine in startup mode, but eventually you have to grow up and realize that a lot of the stuff legacy automakers do is not because they're stupid, or obsolete, or aren't thinking right--they do it because they know their business model. And some of it is BS too. "Look everyone, we have a tablet in our car!" Great, something that you can't control anything in the car w/o *looking* at a touchscreen and navigating menus. That's safe to do when driving! Touchscreens are one of my pet peeves in cars lol...

I will give Musk credit. I don't think the EV market would be where it is if not for him. He built that first-mover advantage by attacking a market before it was really viable, and just brute-forcing his way in. He pushed to not only high volume manufacturing, but profitability. Which was questionable whether they'd get there a few years ago. Heck, at one point on this very board (~2019 IIRC) I spoke of them having a liquidity crisis and needing a capital raise just a few months after saying they had plenty of capital--and the way you could tell it was a crisis was the terms they had to meet to get the money. And they weathered the storm and they're viable right now.

But for all the ways he bills Tesla as a tech company and not an automaker, he doesn't have a defensible technology moat. He's not vertically integrated in batteries, and most of the tech seems to be Panasonic's, not Tesla's. Full self driving doesn't appear to be on a timeline where he's going to win there. He's late on a truck. His semi tractor is still a prototype. He's full of a lot of promises, and promises are great when you have no competition. But the competition has come to the party, and they're starting to replace his vaporware with actual products.

Tesla has a lead because they have good people, and because they had a head start. But without a defensible technology moat, better-capitalized companies that REALLY know how to make cars are going to quickly close that lead. And what happens to Tesla at that point?
GM or Ford buys it and runs it into the ground?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 21, 2023, 04:27:04 PM
Hyundai Doubles Down on Hybrids and EVs as Competitors Back Off (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/hyundai-electrification-strategy-ev-phev-hybrid-jose-munoz-interview/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AMT%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR3xgU6p_0pQkotk_NHrTpl1syf8falPHkXVkNKVGq1RjcvjFkg5YezvqGE)

At the moment, I'm most interesting in the Tucson Hybrid, but still holding off a while.  It's the only one with ventilated seats which my wife says she wants (I don't think they do much).  I have yet to drive one.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 22, 2023, 07:17:40 AM
In my experience, generally, the Hyundai family of vehicles is under-powered.

I drove a Genesis and it was fine but those cost money.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 22, 2023, 07:29:45 AM
That is a concern, I agree, coming off the GTI.  The Tucson hybrid has more power than the regular one, and the plugin has more power than that, but is quite a bit more expensive.  My daughter leased a regular Tucson and said it had plenty of pep, we'll see when we drive it.  7.7 seconds is only "OK".  C&D got it in 7.1 seconds, they use a different technique on their runs.  I'm trying to avoid any CVT and DCT transmission  types for one thing.  I'd like decent mpg.  My wife wants a "deluxe" model with ventilated seats, which narrows the field.

Really, I just want to keep the GTI.

2023 Hyundai Tucson Hybrid Prices, Reviews, and Pictures | Edmunds (https://www.edmunds.com/hyundai/tucson/2023/hybrid/#:~:text=In our testing the Tucson,power when you need it.)

How does the Tucson Hybrid drive? You might not guess it, but the Tucson Hybrid is a standout athlete in the hybrid SUV class. It provides a smooth, comfortable driving experience with few faults: The steering is crisp, its handling is composed around sharp turns, and the hybrid powertrain is a willing sprinter. In our testing the Tucson Hybrid zipped from 0 to 60 mph in 7.7 seconds, beating out the Toyota RAV4 Hybrid as the quickest in the class.

It feels good around town too. The traditional six-speed automatic transmission is eager to deliver power when you need it. We also like the responsive brakes. Beware that clunky gear shifts are sometimes apparent at low speeds, and the crossover dives forward a bit under hard braking. But in all it's an enjoyable drive, and the handoff between electric power and the engine is excellent.


2023 Hyundai Tucson Hybrid Review, Pricing, and Specs (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/hyundai/tucson-hybrid-2023)

At our test track, our loaded Limited hybrid test vehicle (https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a38591574/2022-hyundai-tucson-hybrid-by-the-numbers/) managed a 7.1-second run to 60 mph. While the Tucson is no sports car, its handling is confident, it's got solid steering, and a comfortable ride. The richest part of the Tucson drive is its quiet cruising speed that lends itself to a more luxurious experience otherwise lost in this affordable-minded segment of SUVs.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 22, 2023, 08:20:30 AM
2025 Volvo EX30 First Drive: A Hit in the Making (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2025-volvo-ex30-first-drive-review/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AMT%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR2pCQ2u1vE2uppi_PGYPofzw3v6ImrGRIRAvuqQIz3vjpeslxM7uM_8k2Q)

Poke around the automotive world a bit these days, and you'll trip over half a dozen doom and gloom headlines predicting a sudden collapse of the EV market in America. Never mind that EV sales and market share are up year over year, quarter over quarter, and month over month and continuing to climb. These stories all point to the same canary in the lithium mine: the number of EVs on dealer lots and how long it takes to sell them. They always seem to leave out the part where the vast majority of EVs today are very expensive, most starting at more than $48,000 (the average selling price of a new car in America) and many of the less expensive ones blowing past that figure as soon as you've added all-wheel drive.

The EX30? It starts at $36,245 and fully loaded it's $49,195.  (https://www.motortrend.com/news/2025-volvo-ex30-price-msrp/)That alone will bring people in the doors, and the fact it's not only not a penalty box but actually a really good little car will seal the deal. If they lease, they'll even be eligible for a tax credit despite the fact EX30s will be built in China and Belgium (likely a $3,750 credit as the batteries are made in China, which disqualifies it from getting the full $7,500 credit). Because the car is made outside the U.S. and its batteries come from China, it isn't eligible for any federal purchase tax credits, but with a price this low it doesn't need them to hook potential shoppers.

Meh.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 22, 2023, 08:41:43 AM
Big time Meh on that one. Shame on you, Volvo.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 22, 2023, 09:33:15 AM
Comparison Test: Our Long-Term Chevy Blazer EV Meets Its Biggest Competitors | Edmunds (https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/our-long-term-chevy-blazer-ev-meets-its-biggest-competition.html?fbclid=IwAR0HHm1l3v7GHIzrYSZ32DMV6c-9B1S4EYUe3hwkYs1ms-aMDtQB5uIgvXQ)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 22, 2023, 12:00:45 PM
2025 Cadillac Escalade IQ Officially Here: Everything You Need to Know (roadandtrack.com) (https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a44765497/2025-cadillac-escalade-iq/?utm_campaign=socialflowR%26T&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social-media&fbclid=IwAR2X85bPORBDgh6Q7QyJLPh4tK0DG8fFZNn0k0RnlSPcIH7jMxsRNmHfHMw)

 This means you can add up to 100 miles of range to the battery pack in as little as 10 minutes of charge time. A standard Level 1 charger should provide up to 14.8 miles per hour, whereas a Level 2 charger can provide up to 37 miles in an hour, according to Cadillac. The SUV will also support bidirectional charging capabilities (https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a44753255/gm-adds-vehicle-to-home-generator-ev-linup/), allowing customers to power their homes if it is properly equipped.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 22, 2023, 12:04:52 PM
GM or Ford buys it and runs it into the ground?
BTW meant to reply to this... 

The problem is that nobody can afford to buy Tesla unless it's already been run into the ground. They've got a (currently) $766B market cap. Ford's is $40B. 

The kind of slide they'd need to undergo to be an acquisition target would be insane. 

It'd be more likely that Tesla would buy Ford and run it into the ground. He's already done that with $44B buying Twitter X and all he seems to be accomplishing is lighting money on fire. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 23, 2023, 09:00:27 AM
What is the current best scenario for buying an EV?  Presume you get the $7500 (or not if commercial).

We have delivery vans here coming and going frequently, they usually idle, and are gasoline powered.  I don't know how far they go in a day.  A basic delivery van that costs say $45,000 and has a 125 mile range... is that a good proposition?

The first EV I rode in was in Copenhagen, a VW ID4 I think.  It was quiet and smooth and the driver liked it, he said (we used him several times).  He said range was never an issue for him.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 24, 2023, 08:45:25 AM
How to Take an EV Road Trip - Kelley Blue Book (kbb.com) (https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/taking-ev-road-trip/?PSID=CSFB1&utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=social_organic_brand)

I found this a bit interesting.  Note he says charging his Leaf the first time cost $13.75 while his much larger Chrysler Pacific would have used about $20 in gas, at $4.09 per gallon.  Gas prices here are well under $3 now.

Charging away from home is much pricier, 2-3x home charging.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 25, 2023, 07:04:08 AM
EVs Are Supposed to Be Cheap to Maintain—Our Kia EV6 Isn't So Far (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2022-kia-ev6-wind-awd-yearlong-review-update-5-service-costs/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AMT%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR0GSxYF65nqXLm_firzX4SMGOkNLiwTxDGSnsJsrKPwDdlp4TD7wetiG_4)

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 25, 2023, 02:34:40 PM
The negative impact on the climate from passenger vehicles, which is considerable, could have dropped by more than 30% over the past decade if not for the world’s appetite for large cars, a new report from the Global Fuel Economy Initiative suggests.

Sport utility vehicles, or SUVs, now account for more than half of all new car sales across the globe, the group said, and it’s not alone. The International Energy Agency, using a narrower definition of SUV, estimates they make up nearly half.

Over the years these cars have gotten bigger and so has their cost to the climate, as carbon dioxide emissions “are almost directly proportional to fuel use” for gas-powered cars. The carbon that goes in at the pump comes out the tailpipe.


Transportation is responsible for around one-quarter of all the climate-warming gases that come from energy, and much of that is attributable to passenger transport, according to the International Energy Agency.

But the negative environmental impact from SUVs could have been reduced by more than one-third between 2010 and 2022, if people had just continued buying the same size cars, according to the initiative, which is a global partnership of cleaner vehicle groups.

One fix for this could be electric vehicles.

Meanwhile, smaller vehicles, or sedans, have lost a lot of ground in the U.S. market over the past decade. In 2012, sedans accounted for 50% of the U.S. auto retail space, with SUVs at just over 30%, and trucks at 13.5%, according to car-buying resource Edmunds. By 2022, U.S. sedan share dropped to 21%, while SUVs hit 54.5% and trucks grew to 20%.



Large SUVs such as the Chevrolet Tahoe, Toyota Sequoia, or Nissan Armada have highway gas mileages of 28, 24, and 19, respectively. But even the most efficient SUVs will be less efficient than sedans because SUVs weigh so much more. A sign of progress, however, is that compact SUVs, such as the Toyota RAV4 and Honda CR-V (at 35 and 34 highway miles-per-gallon, respectively) are now leading the U.S. SUV market, accounting for about 18% of new vehicle sales last year.

More efforts by the U.S. Department of Transportation, the Environmental Protection Agency, and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, are also underway to improve gas-powered vehicle fuel economy and tailpipe emissions. Some initiatives could include SUVs, which has the industry up in arms.

Until recently, consumers had few electric models to choose from if they wanted to reduce the impact of their own transportation. A majority of early electrified car options were sedans, particularly in the luxury segment.

More automakers are launching larger EV types, but those could require even heavier batteries onboard. The environmental aspect also needs to be weighed if an SUV is replaced by an EV, said Loren McDonald, CEO of market analysis firm EVAdoption. “Just electrifying doesn’t get us much if we also don’t focus on weight and efficiency of these vehicles and smaller battery packs,” McDonald said.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 28, 2023, 12:28:03 PM
Of course this is happening.

Voice of the Customer (evvoiceofthecustomer.com) (https://evvoiceofthecustomer.com/)

Last year, there was a lot of hope and hype about EVs. Early adopters formed an initial line and were ready to buy these vehicles as soon as we had them to sell. But that enthusiasm has stalled. Today, the supply of unsold BEVs is surging, as they are not selling nearly as fast as they are arriving at our dealerships -- even with deep price cuts, manufacturer incentives, and generous government incentives.

While the goals of the regulations are admirable, they require consumer acceptance to become a reality. With each passing day, it becomes more apparent that this attempted electric vehicle mandate is unrealistic based on current and forecasted customer demand. Already, electric vehicles are stacking up on our lots which is our best indicator of customer demand in the marketplace.

Mr. President, no government agency, no think tank, and no polling firm knows more about the automobile customer than us. We talk to customers every day. As retail automotive dealerships, we are agnostic as to what we sell. Our business is to provide customers with vehicles that meet the needs of their budgets and lifestyles.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 28, 2023, 12:32:46 PM
Another Quarter, Another Record: EV Sales in the U.S. Surpass 300,000 in Q3, as Tesla Share of EV Segment Tumbles to 50% - Cox Automotive Inc. (coxautoinc.com) (https://www.coxautoinc.com/market-insights/q3-2023-ev-sales/)

EVs are selling of course, the issue is mfgrs are pushing them out faster than the market wants them.

Total EV sales in Q3, according to an estimate from Kelley Blue Book, hit 313,086, a 49.8% increase from the same period one year ago and an increase from the 298,039 sold in Q2. Most automakers posted sizeable gains over 2022, with Volvo, Nissan, Mercedes and Hyundai delivering increases above 200%, thanks mostly to new products entering the market. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 28, 2023, 12:42:57 PM
Another Quarter, Another Record: EV Sales in the U.S. Surpass 300,000 in Q3, as Tesla Share of EV Segment Tumbles to 50% - Cox Automotive Inc. (coxautoinc.com) (https://www.coxautoinc.com/market-insights/q3-2023-ev-sales/)

EVs are selling of course, the issue is mfgrs are pushing them out faster than the market wants them.

Total EV sales in Q3, according to an estimate from Kelley Blue Book, hit 313,086, a 49.8% increase from the same period one year ago and an increase from the 298,039 sold in Q2. Most automakers posted sizeable gains over 2022, with Volvo, Nissan, Mercedes and Hyundai delivering increases above 200%, thanks mostly to new products entering the market.
Exactly. EVs piling up on lots is used as an example of low demand, but clearly if sales are increasing, it means EV demand is increasing. 

*Especially* when you factor in that for many of these buyers, it is their first EV, as anyone buying an EV in the last 4 years probably isn't replacing it yet, and it's likely that most of those who bought in the last 4 years were also buying their first EV. 

Did automakers overbuild for the demand? Yeah, looks like. But that doesn't mean the demand for EVs isn't real or is declining. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 28, 2023, 12:45:02 PM
Those who want them will buy them, and they'll probably keep them for a long while.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MikeDeTiger on November 28, 2023, 12:48:46 PM
It'd be more likely that Tesla would buy Ford and run it into the ground. He's already done that with $44B buying Twitter X and all he seems to be accomplishing is lighting money on fire.

A, I don't think he bought Twitter for monetary reasons, and B, you can't run something into the ground that was already there.  Twitter was massively unprofitable and ridiculously overvalued, with no forecasted trend by any reasonable assessment that it was going to change.  It's still not profitable, but it is on a path where it may be, one day.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 28, 2023, 04:58:52 PM
I bought gas for #2.63 yesterday

I imagine that even if gasoline drops below $2.50 and stays there, the folks that want to buy EVs will buy EVs.
Regardless of financial sense

now, take away the $7,500 upfront tax credit and that would change things
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 28, 2023, 06:39:22 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/xeXnSya.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 29, 2023, 07:32:53 AM
https://www.wsj.com/articles/car-dealers-letter-to-biden-electric-vehicles-fd413d98?st=h7hl07hxdgbeezt&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

The dealers’ letter is an important political signal that progressive climate coercion isn’t as popular as Democrats think. Americans don’t like to be told what to do or what they must buy. As the dealers put it, “many people just want to make their own choice about what vehicle is right for them.” Imagine that.


Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 29, 2023, 07:33:35 AM
We've run the numbers on this thread before, EVs don't make financial sense in general.  If you don't drive much, they don't, if you drive long distances they don't, if you need a second car to get to work, they still don't.  Maybe in California they might if you charge at home with %7500 guvmint money.

You can find a Bolt now in the twenties, so maybe it costs you $22,000, and maybe that works for a second car.

I was expaining to my wife about plugin hybrids vs regular hybrids and she was inclined for the plugin, though we drive only about 6,000 miles a year, some long distance.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 29, 2023, 07:34:17 AM
A better headline is "EVs are selling, but not as fast as they are being made."
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 29, 2023, 07:39:11 AM
I removed the headline as it's misleading. The article explains it well, if you read it.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 29, 2023, 08:23:05 AM
a better headline

EVs could save the world but aren't selling fast enough - Shame on you!
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 29, 2023, 08:38:11 AM
Yeah, no.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 29, 2023, 08:51:03 AM
By when do you think EVs will be competitive with ICE Vs for your personal needs?

We know the downsides, cost is probably the most relevant (and profitability is a consideration for the mfg).  Imagine you need a smallish car to get to work and back.  You choice is say a Corolla or a comparably sized EV, maybe the Bolt.  That could be the closest comparison.

If you need a truck for towing, this question is probably much further out in the future.  A Ford Flex kind of vehicle or minivan?

My guess is, in broad strokes, 2035, competitive, not necessarily better.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 29, 2023, 08:56:11 AM
and if the oil companies get really upset by 2035, they could drop gasoline prices to $1.99/gallon or lower

Causing more subsidies for ethanol or pushing corn out of the market
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 29, 2023, 09:04:03 AM
The thing is, projections are still that half the cars on the road by 2050 will be ICE'd, so oil companies have quite a bit of time here to adjust.  But as demand for oil drops, gradually, prices will tend to drop as well, and I think they already are adjusting forecasts for costs for exploration and drilling.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 29, 2023, 09:06:19 AM
By when do you think EVs will be competitive with ICE Vs for your personal needs?

We know the downsides, cost is probably the most relevant (and profitability is a consideration for the mfg).  Imagine you need a smallish car to get to work and back.  You choice is say a Corolla or a comparably sized EV, maybe the Bolt.  That could be the closest comparison.

If you need a truck for towing, this question is probably much further out in the future.  A Ford Flex kind of vehicle or minivan?

My guess is, in broad strokes, 2035, competitive, not necessarily better.
We drive 6-7K miles per year. So probably never. My next purchase could very well be my last purchase.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 29, 2023, 09:13:10 AM
yup, once I retire I won't be driving many miles.
Unless it's for trips to see family and friends

I suppose in 2035 I could be in the market for my last car.  I'm be around 75 and figure that would last until I'm 85 at least.

It's possible I could choose an electric, but it would be about dollars and sense
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 29, 2023, 09:18:11 AM
The problem is those who don't drive much don't benefit much by not buying gasoline.  And as demand for gas gradually ebbs, costs may drop.

I do see a market for delivery vans and maybe work trucks.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 29, 2023, 09:19:40 AM
One thing I thought about was buying an EV since we drive in town mostly, and only need an ICE for long trips, so we could rent something the few times that happens.  The math doesn't work now.

And I think the chargers in our building are a bit pricey, probably twice residential power, at least.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 29, 2023, 09:20:00 AM
perhaps by 2035 the cost to build and maintain an EV will be less than a gasser

doubtful, but perhaps
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 29, 2023, 09:46:16 AM
I'll use my wife as an example. She works in an office, 5 days a week. According to Google Maps, her route is 17 miles each way, so 34 miles a day. Taking out weekends, holidays, vacation days, etc, we'll assume that's 225 work days a year. 

That's already 7.6k miles. I think it's quite easy, given errands and other things she drives to, to extend and say she's probably driving 10k/year. I think it's actually higher than that, but we'll go with $10K.

Her car is a Lexus RX350. According to the current Lexus site, the RX starts at $50K. The RZ (comparable electric) starts at just under $60K. Without building them out to know all the option packages, that's just under a $10K difference. But with the $7500 tax rebate, that's actually going to be $53K, or a $3K difference for comparable vehicles.

So let's say it's an extra $1500 to install the L2 charger in the garage. Now we're at $4.5K.

Right now gas is around $4.50/gal at the Costco here. SoCal Edison has time-of-use rate plans that averaging winter and summer cost is $0.24/kWh overnight. Both are expensive relative to the rest of the country, but hey, it's California.

Based on this calculator (https://chooseev.com/savings-calculator/), the 5 year savings on fuel cost alone will be a little over $5K. So anything beyond about 4.5 years of ownership is saving money based purely on fuel/electricity costs. 

And that's not counting potential savings on things like maintenance costs, etc. 

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 29, 2023, 10:08:36 AM
We don't talk about infrastructure at all, it seems.

These EV's are very heavy.

Parking garages come to mind.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on November 29, 2023, 10:24:40 AM
We don't talk about infrastructure at all, it seems.

These EV's are very heavy.

Parking garages come to mind.
Parking garages, bridges, heck just plain old roads, none are built for use by a large amount of EVs.

The I35 overpass bridges in downtown Austin at rush hour are bumper-to-bumper from 7 AM to 9 AM every morning and from 4 PM to 7 PM every night.  Right now the traffic on them is 95% ICE.  What's going to happen when that number gets closer to 50/50?

Any civil/structural engineers around wanna do the math for us? :)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 29, 2023, 10:29:28 AM
I have zero background in structural, so it won't be me. I never even took a structural course, other than the Statics and Strength of Materials that everyone took. And I remember nothing.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 29, 2023, 10:51:04 AM
According to Google, the Lexus RX curb weight is 4,067 to 4,750 lbs. The Lexus RZ curb weight is 4,564 to 4,619 lbs. Tesla Model Y is in the same range at 4,154 to 4,555 lbs. 

It also has an F-150 ranging from 4,275 to 5,757, and we all know Texas has a few of those rolling around.

For comparison, a Tesla Model 3 is between 3,862 and 4,048, while a comparable midsize sedan (Camry) ranges from 3,310 to 3,595. 



So yes, batteries are heavy, but it's not like we're talking huge differences between what's already on the road. 

A fully loaded semi supposedly can weight 80,000 lbs. Interstate overpasses handle those just fine. (Parking garages could be a different story as they're not built for that weight of course.)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MikeDeTiger on November 29, 2023, 10:53:25 AM
Parking garages, bridges, heck just plain old roads, none are built for use by a large amount of EVs.

The I35 overpass bridges in downtown Austin at rush hour are bumper-to-bumper from 7 AM to 9 AM every morning and from 4 PM to 7 PM every night.  Right now the traffic on them is 95% ICE.  What's going to happen when that number gets closer to 50/50?

Any civil/structural engineers around wanna do the math for us? :)

I think I note this here every once in a blue moon, so here is your annual-ish reminder about driving on I-10 through Louisiana.  Don't take I-10 through Lake Charles as there is wide concern about the structural integrity of the bridge.  It hasn't happened yet, but the local engineers have been begging for funding to do something about it for over a decade now, they claim the piles and piers are unfit and unsafe and that the bridge was not built for the traffic I-10 gets now.  It hasn't fallen down and killed a bunch of people yet, but I figure there's a first time for everything, and I usually spend the +10 minutes to take the 210 loop.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 29, 2023, 10:56:44 AM
According to Google, the Lexus RX curb weight is 4,067 to 4,750 lbs. The Lexus RZ curb weight is 4,564 to 4,619 lbs. Tesla Model Y is in the same range at 4,154 to 4,555 lbs.

It also has an F-150 ranging from 4,275 to 5,757, and we all know Texas has a few of those rolling around.

For comparison, a Tesla Model 3 is between 3,862 and 4,048, while a comparable midsize sedan (Camry) ranges from 3,310 to 3,595.



So yes, batteries are heavy, but it's not like we're talking huge differences between what's already on the road.

A fully loaded semi supposedly can weight 80,000 lbs. Interstate overpasses handle those just fine. (Parking garages could be a different story as they're not built for that weight of course.)

Model 3 is a compact car and is in no way comparable to a Camry. Even a Carrola has more space. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on November 29, 2023, 11:06:42 AM
According to Google, the Lexus RX curb weight is 4,067 to 4,750 lbs. The Lexus RZ curb weight is 4,564 to 4,619 lbs. Tesla Model Y is in the same range at 4,154 to 4,555 lbs.

It also has an F-150 ranging from 4,275 to 5,757, and we all know Texas has a few of those rolling around.

For comparison, a Tesla Model 3 is between 3,862 and 4,048, while a comparable midsize sedan (Camry) ranges from 3,310 to 3,595.



So yes, batteries are heavy, but it's not like we're talking huge differences between what's already on the road.

A fully loaded semi supposedly can weight 80,000 lbs. Interstate overpasses handle those just fine. (Parking garages could be a different story as they're not built for that weight of course.)


I'm more worried about the static weight of traffic stopped on that bridge/overpass, which is why I specifically cited rush hour in Austin.  A span that, at low traffic times, might have only one semi passing across it in a given time period, might now have 4-5 stopped directly on top of it, at peak traffic time.  It's built to handle that load for the ICE version of the vehicle.  But can it handle the EV equivalents?

I don't know what safety margin/safety factor structural engineers use for such structures.  I believe it's several times the expected weight.

But while an EV sedan might only weigh 30% more than its ICE equivalent, I saw some info that EV trucks and SUVs can weigh up to 2.5X their ICE equivalents.

So, how much of the total vehicle base is currently sedans versus trucks/SUVs, and where are those trends headed?

I'd say it's worth a reasonable amount of concern.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on November 29, 2023, 11:07:32 AM
I think I note this here every once in a blue moon, so here is your annual-ish reminder about driving on I-10 through Louisiana.  Don't take I-10 through Lake Charles as there is wide concern about the structural integrity of the bridge.  It hasn't happened yet, but the local engineers have been begging for funding to do something about it for over a decade now, they claim the piles and piers are unfit and unsafe and that the bridge was not built for the traffic I-10 gets now.  It hasn't fallen down and killed a bunch of people yet, but I figure there's a first time for everything, and I usually spend the +10 minutes to take the 210 loop. 

Now tell me how to get around that horrible I10 bridge in Baton Rouge when driving east from Texas to New Orleans????
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 29, 2023, 11:37:48 AM
structural engineers like safety factors of 7 or 8 times.
At least they did a few decades ago.
I doubt that has changed.

these EV suvs aren't heavier than large pickups and delivery vans and trucks

I'd guess bridges and roadways are plenty safe until past 2035 or more
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on November 29, 2023, 11:46:14 AM
structural engineers like safety factors of 7 or 8 times.
At least they did a few decades ago.
I doubt that has changed.

these EV suvs aren't heavier than large pickups and delivery vans and trucks

I'd guess bridges and roadways are plenty safe until past 2035 or more

EV SUVs are much heavier than their ICE counterparts.  Once they reach half the total vehicle base, things could get very dicey. When a safety factor of 8x becomes a safety factor of 4x, that's a major concern.

I agree that it won't matter until 2035 or later, but the fact that major capital improvements take decades to vote for, plan, fund, and build, should be a concerning factor.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MikeDeTiger on November 29, 2023, 11:46:18 AM
Now tell me how to get around that horrible I10 bridge in Baton Rouge when driving east from Texas to New Orleans????

Dood.

I-10 needs a bypass around Baton Rouge so bad.  I recently contacted an old friend of mine about a good time to get through there and he said that anymore, there's not really a good time to go through BR.  When I was growing up it was okay.  After Katrina emptied out half of NOLA to BR, people who never went back, traffic was miserable for several hours around the rush hours.  However, the last few times I've been through there it was miserable even when it should've been good.

Went that way to Memphis over Thanksgiving, I got to BR about noon on a Wednesday.  Thought I'd be safe, but neaux.  Suckity suck suck suck.  Came home Sunday and thought surely I'd be okay on a weekend.  Neauxp.  As soon as I got off I-55 in Hammond on to I-12 headed into BR, traffic was stalled.  I crawled all the way to BR, thinking after I got to the 10/12 merge it would pick back up.  Neaux.  I crawled through BR, thinking after I got to the 10/110 split it would pick back up.  Neaux.  I crawled over the Mississippi River bridge thinking after Port Allen it would pick back up.  Lolz.  I crawled all the way across the Atchafalaya Basin bridge (I call it the Forever Bridge) and clear to Lafayette.  There were spurts of traffic that moved well, but always frequent stopping and sitting.  Not until I was through Lafayette did things finally move consistently.  I've never seen anything like it.  Especially on a Sunday.  I guess maybe it was holiday traffic with everybody coming home, but dear god.  I lost nearly 4 hours to that mess.  

I'm not doing that anymore.  You can go to the Texas games when they play in BR.  I may never mess with that city again.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 29, 2023, 11:50:48 AM
structural engineers like safety factors of 7 or 8 times.
At least they did a few decades ago.
I doubt that has changed.

these EV suvs aren't heavier than large pickups and delivery vans and trucks

I'd guess bridges and roadways are plenty safe until past 2035 or more
Maybe for buildings. For bridges I've always heard 3.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 29, 2023, 12:01:50 PM
But while an EV sedan might only weigh 30% more than its ICE equivalent, I saw some info that EV trucks and SUVs can weigh up to 2.5X their ICE equivalents.

So, how much of the total vehicle base is currently sedans versus trucks/SUVs, and where are those trends headed?

I'd say it's worth a reasonable amount of concern.
Where are you getting 2.5X?

If I compare the F-150 (4275-5757) with the F-150 Lightning (6015-6893), even if you take the lightest possible ICEV configuration vs the heaviest possible BEV configuration you're only at 1.6X. But that's not even a fair comparison, because the Lightning is only offered in a SuperCrew cab whereas the lightest F-150 will be regular cab, so not directly comparable. The lightest ICEV SuperCrew is 4687 as far as I can tell, which gets you down below 1.5X for an actual comparable vehicle. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 29, 2023, 12:08:34 PM
The Hummer is pretty heavy, over 9,000 pounds, the battery weighs nearly 3,000.

The 2006 H1 weighed about 8,000 pounds, it's not exactly the same.

I'd go with 1.5x.  


(https://i.imgur.com/QeaKAgO.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on November 29, 2023, 12:10:59 PM
Where are you getting 2.5X?

If I compare the F-150 (4275-5757) with the F-150 Lightning (6015-6893), even if you take the lightest possible ICEV configuration vs the heaviest possible BEV configuration you're only at 1.6X. But that's not even a fair comparison, because the Lightning is only offered in a SuperCrew cab whereas the lightest F-150 will be regular cab, so not directly comparable. The lightest ICEV SuperCrew is 4687 as far as I can tell, which gets you down below 1.5X for an actual comparable vehicle.


I saw it on google. :)

Evan at 1.5X you're cutting into safety margin pretty significantly.

Are you suggesting  that if vehicles  are getting 30-50% heavier on average, it won't become a significant risk factor?

Because I can tell you that if CPU temperatures increased 30-50% and I didn't do anything to update/upgrade the cooling solution, we'd be looking at immediate catastrophic failure... :)

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 29, 2023, 12:14:21 PM
adding 500lbs per vehicle is 50%?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 29, 2023, 12:16:23 PM
Maybe for buildings. For bridges I've always heard 3.
you're probably correct
I didn't draw many bridges
I should have asked my father, he built over 100 bridges
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 29, 2023, 01:05:37 PM
When I was a kid, we'd drive to my grandparent's house in east Tenn.  It was nearly all two lane road, and not many trucks fortunately, as we'd get behind one and have to slow until we could pass.  Of course now on freeways there are trucks galore, many close to 40 tons, and often back to back to back to ...  

Freeway bridges have to be safe for 40 t trucks nose to tail, which is a lot more than EVs would weight in the same space.  Even three Humners in place of one truck doesn't match its weight.  

Parking garages, there I don't know.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on November 29, 2023, 01:07:43 PM
When I was a kid, we'd drive to my grandparent's house in east Tenn.  It was nearly all two lane road, and not many trucks fortunately, as we'd get behind one and have to slow until we could pass.  Of course now on freeways there are trucks galore, many close to 40 tons, and often back to back to back to ... 

Freeway bridges have to be safe for 40 t trucks nose to tail, which is a lot more than EVs would weight in the same space.  Even three Humners in place of one truck doesn't match its weight. 

Parking garages, there I don't know.
What about 40 EV trucks nose to tail?  That's the issue we're commenting on.  If/when EVs completely replace ICE, or even get to be half the total population, what then?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 29, 2023, 01:10:57 PM
Trucks still face the 40t weight limit.  They would carry less cargo.

My own thinking is heavy trucks will go to fuel cells.  Truck stops will dispense hydrogen instead of Diesel.  Gas stations will recharge EV cars.

Like the old days.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 29, 2023, 01:31:50 PM
I saw it on google. :)

Evan at 1.5X you're cutting into safety margin pretty significantly.

Are you suggesting  that if vehicles  are getting 30-50% heavier on average, it won't become a significant risk factor?

Because I can tell you that if CPU temperatures increased 30-50% and I didn't do anything to update/upgrade the cooling solution, we'd be looking at immediate catastrophic failure... :)
Hey, I'm all for discussing the numbers. I'd just prefer that they're real numbers, not made up numbers.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on November 29, 2023, 01:44:18 PM
Hey, I'm all for discussing the numbers. I'd just prefer that they're real numbers, not made up numbers.


OK.

I don't really have time to find real exact numbers.  The googles said sedans are 30% more.  And SUVs could be 2.5X more.

If you care to dig further knock yourself out.  I'm spending all my cycles worrying about the college football playoff...
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 29, 2023, 01:46:00 PM
I get you, brotha. But you're an engineer. You're numerate. 

Didn't "2.5X" just throw up a little red flag in your brain like "hmm, that doesn't sound right"?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on November 29, 2023, 01:48:24 PM
I get you, brotha. But you're an engineer. You're numerate.

Didn't "2.5X" just throw up a little red flag in your brain like "hmm, that doesn't sound right"?

Honestly I didn't really care enough to put that critical thought into it...?  My guess is there is one example of such, and that's the one the google picked.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 29, 2023, 02:12:36 PM


Found this on line.  I don't think any car would come anywhere close to these limits.



Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 29, 2023, 02:15:11 PM
Fair 'nuff.

But yeah, increased weight will bring problems. 

Hopefully as battery capacities improve, it will start to pull back some of that weight increase. For example, it's thought that if the solid state battery can actually come to fruition, it's something like 30-50% higher capacity per kg than lithium-ion (https://www.automotiveworld.com/articles/can-solid-state-bateries-help-evs-shed-weight/#:~:text=This means that the cells,for a solid-state chemistry.). 

But hopefully all the talk about solid state batteries is technically (and economically) achievable, and not just hopium. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on November 29, 2023, 02:17:55 PM
Solid state batteries seem like a white paper dream right now, but I suppose ya never know.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 29, 2023, 02:25:44 PM
A friend of mine called such things "Unobtainium".
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 30, 2023, 06:04:33 AM
You Can Save $15,000 On Gas In 5 Years Of Owning A Tesla Model 3. Here's How (insideevs.com) (https://insideevs.com/news/698380/tesla-model-3-ownership-cost-fuel-savings-5-years/?fbclid=IwAR2UnJbi4CD7dT3b7NcOGoMT_uJPhng5mX-EsA8yGgXaAWTr77yCAKz8YFg)

Says he paid $56 K for that Tesla and compares it with Toyota Camry/Corolla, in different spots.

The newest Camry is hybrid only, probably around 40 mpg which is higher than the 26 mpg used above.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Temp430 on November 30, 2023, 06:30:24 AM
Toyota's hybrid battery guarantee, 10 years/150K miles, is all I need to buy one of their hybrids.  Not so keen on an all electric vehicle living in the boondocks.  Maybe when an electric vehicle battery charge takes less than 5 minutes and is good for 400+ miles.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 30, 2023, 06:39:23 AM
The battery warranty on all EVs and PHEVs is 100,000 miles.  

I think we could see recharge times of 15 minutes from 20% to 80% fairly soonish.  That last 20% is slow at the moment.  The claimed Toyota SS batteries are interesting if they become real.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 30, 2023, 08:02:56 AM
The Toyota Prius Is the 2024 MotorTrend Car of the Year (https://www.motortrend.com/news/toyota-prius-hybrid-2024-car-of-the-year/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AMT%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR3M40ouG8pgX9xe7YU3KY8PJ_rJK7JCsKbsuJxrou9ht5RKkSpb1BmCdjM)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 30, 2023, 09:17:45 AM
not a very big car
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 30, 2023, 10:41:38 AM
Nope, it's adequate as a second though.  Motor Trend is not my favorite car mag, but it's notable the new Prius is pretty fast.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 30, 2023, 11:07:50 AM
adequate until a guy your size tries to get in and out of the driver's seat
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on November 30, 2023, 11:16:22 AM
Small cars often have more leg room than one might think.  I had a Chevy Sonic for a few year and didn't even have my seat all the way back, the same is true with the GTI.  In rental cars, I usually push the seat all the way back and then MAYBE move forward a click.

A thing I check before buying a new car is seating position and comfort.  In some, I'm just not comfortable even if there is leg room.

I liked that Sonic quite a bit.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 30, 2023, 11:20:39 AM
Apparently tall guys report the Prius as being pretty comfortable: https://www.reddit.com/r/prius/comments/15wll0o/how_is_the_prius_for_tallish_people/

I had one as a rental car WAY back probably not too long after the Prius was introduced, and hated it. But that was when it was a gutless wonder. And it wasn't based on size, I just hated driving it. I do understand that the newer variants aren't anything like those though. 

At least one person on that reddit thread did say it was low to the ground and getting in and out isn't ideal. But plenty roomy once you're inside. 

Some cars that you'd think should be "roomier" than a Prius aren't. When we bought the RX we also looked at the NX200. It's a small CUV and is tall enough that you'd think it has enough room for me. I couldn't even fit in the damn passenger seat. Tried adjusting the seats any way I could, and it just didn't work. I was surprised. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on November 30, 2023, 01:10:27 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/BKph94B.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Gigem on November 30, 2023, 04:39:27 PM
Most impressive...


https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1730331223992472029


Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on November 30, 2023, 04:44:17 PM
That's awesome.  If that thing weren't so dang ugly, I might be inclined to want one.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: SuperMario on November 30, 2023, 04:55:28 PM
That's awesome.  If that thing weren't so dang ugly, I might be inclined to want one.
and expensive.. the "beast" model, which is the one in the video and the one actually available now is 100k.

I'm sorry, but what people have been spending on vehicles is absolutely insane and going to lead to economic mess. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on November 30, 2023, 05:22:55 PM
and expensive.. the "beast" model, which is the one in the video and the one actually available now is 100k.

I'm sorry, but what people have been spending on vehicles is absolutely insane and going to lead to economic mess.

Lenders are now offering 7-10 year notes for vehicles.  So people are able to buy much more expensive vehicles than they can actually afford.  Which just enables further inflation in the market.  It's crazy.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 30, 2023, 05:25:55 PM
What the hell is the point of a pickup truck that does 0-60 in 2.6s and a sub-11s quarter mile?

I swear anyone who buys that thing is the modern equivalent of this guy:

(https://i.imgur.com/b8CQ11E.jpg)

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 30, 2023, 05:31:10 PM

Lenders are now offering 7-10 year notes for vehicles.  So people are able to buy much more expensive vehicles than they can actually afford.  Which just enables further inflation in the market.  It's crazy.
Yep. Just like college loans allow colleges to ratchet up their prices. Leading to massive inflation of college costs which make it more and more necessary to take on loans... Vicious cycle. 

And just like leasing is often a way for people to drive much more expensive vehicles than they can actually afford. Stay on that treadmill, never actually going anywhere, because you don't want to be seen in a Honda. Ew!
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: SuperMario on November 30, 2023, 05:41:55 PM
Lenders are now offering 7-10 year notes for vehicles.  So people are able to buy much more expensive vehicles than they can actually afford.  Which just enables further inflation in the market.  It's crazy.
I know. I'm in the financial world and I'm shocked and disgusted by it. The amount of people with 72 month auto loans at $850 per month would blow some minds.

At some point a 2008 is going to happen again. I'm just not sure what is going to be the trigger because there's a lot of directions it could come from this time. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 30, 2023, 06:00:05 PM
I know. I'm in the financial world and I'm shocked and disgusted by it. The amount of people with 72 month auto loans at $850 per month would blow some minds.
Still probably better for most of them than leasing. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on November 30, 2023, 07:27:58 PM
That's awesome.  If that thing weren't so dang ugly, I might be inclined to want one.
have you seen the 2024 MotorTrend Car of the Year?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 01, 2023, 04:12:54 PM
There Are Way More Ways to Make Electric Motors Than You Think (roadandtrack.com) (https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a46012251/ev-motor-types/?utm_medium=social-media&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=socialflowR%26T&fbclid=IwAR0HJj4m7xOBW63OjdxcwVWzoOdp_nTP_IqLLfo6DebfpreFzpmCHI7bn4A)

@utee94 (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=15) 

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MikeDeTiger on December 01, 2023, 04:21:22 PM
Most impressive...


https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1730331223992472029


.....but ugly AF.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 02, 2023, 05:48:25 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/R9SOBuG.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on December 02, 2023, 08:00:41 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/Ug43DkH.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 02, 2023, 08:14:32 AM
Still probably better for most of them than leasing.
We may consider a lease, given how little we drive.

Always kinda wanted a Bentley. 


:29:
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on December 02, 2023, 08:18:51 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/MrmkFbk.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 02, 2023, 08:23:33 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/Z1wy365.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on December 02, 2023, 08:30:59 AM
that's better

an old man's sedan/coupe
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 02, 2023, 08:37:10 AM
With a 600 HP V12.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on December 02, 2023, 08:53:33 AM
sporty!
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 04, 2023, 08:21:39 AM
Electric Cars Are Far Less Reliable, According to Consumer Reports (roadandtrack.com) (https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a45986810/electric-cars-are-far-less-reliable-according-to-consumer-reports/?utm_campaign=socialflowR%26T&utm_medium=social-media&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR05IIUQXjDouc-nU-UCEQ5d4TA975sJdwkW_uRckvngywWIe1mfv5Sg_n4)

I'm not at all a fan of CR and their methods.  Anyway, this likely is true.  

I read some of their reports on things I knew a bit about and they were at a HS science project level, really not good at all, ridiculous techniques.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 06, 2023, 11:05:54 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/Dn0s5gq.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MikeDeTiger on December 06, 2023, 11:12:02 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/R9SOBuG.png)

Like.....who approved that design?  I really need to know.  

I mean, it didn't have to look like this, surely.  

Looks like somebody in upper management said "Hey Bob....make it so it looks like a Mars rover."  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 06, 2023, 11:15:21 AM
I figured they were going for "unique" and maybe it appeals to folks who want to signal they are just that, and have no real interest in having a truck.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on December 06, 2023, 11:27:50 AM
Like.....who approved that design?  I really need to know. 

I mean, it didn't have to look like this, surely. 

Looks like somebody in upper management said "Hey Bob....make it so it looks like a Mars rover." 
Pretty sure it was Elon who wanted it to look like this. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on December 06, 2023, 11:28:58 AM
or the bud light marketing person
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MikeDeTiger on December 06, 2023, 12:34:56 PM
Pretty sure it was Elon who wanted it to look like this.

Then you are correct, he doesn't need to be anywhere near the auto industry.  That's a Crime Against Aesthetics. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MikeDeTiger on December 06, 2023, 12:35:17 PM
I figured they were going for "unique" and maybe it appeals to folks who want to signal they are just that, and have no real interest in having a truck.

I can't even tell it was supposed to be a truck.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 06, 2023, 12:54:25 PM
Then you are correct, he doesn't need to be anywhere near the auto industry.  That's a Crime Against Aesthetics. 
Let him make the batteries and leave the rest to people who build cars for real.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on December 06, 2023, 12:58:27 PM
Let him make the batteries and leave the rest to people who build cars for real.
He doesn't even have the battery tech. That's pretty much all Panasonic. He has a factory that assembles the batteries. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 06, 2023, 01:09:27 PM
I'm still impressed that any new car maker can master all of the details of building a reasonably competent car.  You have so many different aspects to master.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Entropy on December 07, 2023, 10:54:03 AM
I'm still impressed that any new car maker can master all of the details of building a reasonably competent car.  You have so many different aspects to master.


When I worked for Ford, my team managed over 16,000 parts per model on the Ford Explorer alone.  It is pretty amazing.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 07, 2023, 11:00:52 AM
Managing existing parts is hard enough.  Devising a new car from a clean sheet?  Just the suspension alone would be serious work.  Then you have crash worthiness and all the other Fed requirements to me.  Seats?  Go design a decent car seat.

I'm sure they hire folks from the Big Three, but still.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 08, 2023, 01:38:38 PM
Historic: US EVs skyrocket past 1 million sales, up 50.7% YOY🔥 | Electrek (https://electrek.co/2023/12/05/us-ev-sales-pass-1-million-2023/?fbclid=IwAR1XkcS-bms4GXnb8y_LSRhLi250L-UF4Cp9TXGf-bnuGxJi1IkzyjK7EXw)

Supply has exceeded demand however.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on December 08, 2023, 03:30:30 PM
sales means sold, correct?

or just sitting on dealer lots
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 08, 2023, 04:03:59 PM
Sold. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on December 08, 2023, 04:27:33 PM
well then, demand was obviously past 1 million, up 50.7%
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 08, 2023, 04:39:12 PM
Sales are up, just not as much as makers expected.  I'm seeing a lot of ads showing discounts on EVs now.

And a million a year is not a large percentage.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on December 08, 2023, 05:02:54 PM
And a million a year is not a large percentage.
Admittedly it's still <10%, but it's getting within sight of that number. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 08, 2023, 05:08:51 PM
Sure, and no doubt the figure will rise in time, probably looking fairly exponential for a period.  We also may well hit a "lull", we may already have, where it has to get past the first adopters and cool people and to folks who are more practical.

Gas around here is well under $3 in most places, an EV just doesn't make much fiscal sense here.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on December 08, 2023, 06:37:27 PM
gas at $2.50 here
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on December 08, 2023, 06:42:58 PM
4.19 at the Costco this morning.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MrNubbz on December 08, 2023, 07:23:01 PM
2.55 in Cleveland another 45-50 cents in the Burbs
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on December 08, 2023, 10:02:21 PM
I could understand electricity becoming more expensive with the forced move towards green
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 09, 2023, 05:08:13 AM
We're not really moving to "green" very fast.  A lot of articles claim we are, but they often omit some critical reference figures.  They say "this will provide power for X number of houses".    And the grid still HAS to have backup power AND base load power from something.  And demand is very likely to grow.

We may find out that "green" only meets additional demand and the current demand stays largely with current sourcing.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 12, 2023, 09:17:45 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/CTwy7dO.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 13, 2023, 11:26:56 AM
2024 Chevy Blazer RS AWD vs. 2023 Ford Mustang Mach-E, Tesla Model Y Long Range: Electric SUVs Compared! (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2024-chevrolet-blazer-vs-2023-ford-mustang-mach-e-tesla-model-y-comparison-test-review/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AAMAG%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR0lxptVLou0XdLQSFrsNntBiRwLmgOQ1uH_AK_-F9mIVJyCJNBAXOqJJAU)

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 13, 2023, 11:49:18 AM
Just paid $2.74 for 91 Octane from Wawa. 87 was $2.19.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 14, 2023, 08:20:27 AM
2024 Chevy Blazer EV First Test: Not Fast, But Still an Electric Swagger Wagon (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2024-chevy-blazer-ev-first-test-review/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AAMAG%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR0GF87G_o4txg7z_Luf6_Mg80TzQumAfZYDN11ZimRcSeUpz35NA2Q-vcA)

 The least expensive Blazer EV (for now) will be the 2LT AWD, which will start at $56,715 (https://www.motortrend.com/news/2024-chevy-blazer-updated-pricing/). In RS-spec, all-wheel drive starts at $60,215 while the long-range rear-wheel-drive variant should clock in at $61,790 to start, and front-drivers will appear later. We expect the performance SS trim to come in around $66,000. Some variants will be eligible for the $7,500 federal tax credit


And therein lies the "rub", in addition to the other things.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 14, 2023, 08:30:08 AM
2024 Chevy Blazer EV First Test: Not Fast, But Still an Electric Swagger Wagon (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2024-chevy-blazer-ev-first-test-review/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AAMAG%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR0GF87G_o4txg7z_Luf6_Mg80TzQumAfZYDN11ZimRcSeUpz35NA2Q-vcA)

The least expensive Blazer EV (for now) will be the 2LT AWD, which will start at $56,715 (https://www.motortrend.com/news/2024-chevy-blazer-updated-pricing/). In RS-spec, all-wheel drive starts at $60,215 while the long-range rear-wheel-drive variant should clock in at $61,790 to start, and front-drivers will appear later. We expect the performance SS trim to come in around $66,000. Some variants will be eligible for the $7,500 federal tax credit


And therein lies the "rub", in addition to the other things.
Damn right there's a rub.

People who could/would never purchase an EV are funding those who will/are - and they don't need the money!! The ones who can't afford it support the ones who can.

It's a big rub, and only talked about by people with open eyes.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 14, 2023, 08:34:00 AM
I know the tax credit has a rather liberal income cap on it, I would have let it apply only to EVs costing less than an ICE equivalent, or under $45 K.

If I had one at all.  You can buy an ICE Blazer for under $50 K with all the features.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 14, 2023, 08:40:41 AM
I know the tax credit has a rather liberal income cap on it, I would have let it apply only to EVs costing less than an ICE equivalent, or under $45 K.

If I had one at all.  You can buy an ICE Blazer for under $50 K with all the features.
"You" is who?

$50K is not an option for the vast majority of people.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 14, 2023, 08:44:18 AM
One can purchsea loaded ICE Blazer under $50 K, which is right at what the average new car costs today.  

Even with the $7500, it does not compute, for me.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 14, 2023, 09:14:22 AM
The Chevy Bolt is probably the closest EV to making sense for folks needing a small car, like a Corolla, but any small hybrid makes more sense, I think.

And the Bolt is being "discontinued" anyway, in current form.  The new one might be similar in features and price, maybe.

The other item not often noted is that car makers are losing money on EVs (aside from Tesla).  So they also are subsidizing these things to get acceptance.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on December 14, 2023, 09:31:30 AM
Damn right there's a rub.

People who could/would never purchase an EV are funding those who will/are - and they don't need the money!! The ones who can't afford it support the ones who can.

It's a big rub, and only talked about by people with open eyes.
I dunno, I'll bet the Federal Reserve chairs and those buying the Treasury bonds to cover the deficits can afford EVs. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 14, 2023, 09:40:06 AM
Yeah, there are some exceptions (!), but largely "regular folks" are not buying EVs, at all.  Most of them probably are looking at used vehicles, perhaps coming off a 3 year lease, which makes a lot of sense.  But we all see plenty of BMWs and Mercedes in traffic when most of the drivers would be just as well off with a Camry or Accord.

Your typical BMW owner could plausibly afford an EV, but it still doesn't make sense for most financially, maybe it's close in California.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 14, 2023, 10:06:26 AM
Let's get real.

(https://i.imgur.com/vjD50iZ.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 14, 2023, 10:13:10 AM
The EV has more base equipment. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 14, 2023, 10:14:41 AM
It should be gold plated for another $21K.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MikeDeTiger on December 14, 2023, 10:29:24 AM
"You" is who?

Not me :smiley_confused1:
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on December 14, 2023, 10:35:11 AM
The other item not often noted is that car makers are losing money on EVs (aside from Tesla).  So they also are subsidizing these things to get acceptance.
I think this is an overplayed criticism. They're losing money on their EV divisions, not on each individual EV they sell, IMHO. I.e. I'd be willing to bet that gross margin is positive on every EV they sell--it's net that gets them. 

And the reason for that isn't profitability in general; it's volume. Whether you're going to sell 1 car or 1M cars, you need an entire "EV division" comprising engineering, supply chain, marketing, etc. That's a lot of money but it looks really bad if you sell 1 car and really good if you sell 1M cars. They haven't achieved the volume yet for the aggregate gross profit to fund the divisions they had to stand up to sell 1 car. 

The same thing happened with Tesla. They burned money until they could achieve the volume necessary to fund the company, even though they were selling expensive cars that were individually positive gross margin items. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 14, 2023, 12:00:41 PM
Some models might be positive in gross profit.  And maybe the critique is over played.  But Ford announced their EV division was losing billions, or over a billion, which starts to sound like real money.

Anyway, the Blazer example is one I think where the premium to the customer for an EV is quite a bit outside the range most would pay even after $7500.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on December 14, 2023, 12:14:58 PM
Yeah. And they had to fund that EV division for several years before they built a single car. R&D, engineering, prototyping, reliability testing, etc. Costs A LOT of money. And they need that entire EV division whether they sell 1 car or 1M cars. But if the volume is closer to 1 than 1M, the division is going to be losing A LOT of money. 

It's like any startup. You have to have a company to develop the product before you can sell a single unit and generate a single dollar of revenue. So you burn cash until you can grow volume enough to be self-supporting. 

And these EV unit losses only becomes public because they set up the EV division as it's own P&L and disclose those losses to Wall Street on a division basis. They can't hide them in the corporate earnings because they don't want those losses to cause the Street to question whether their ICEV business is healthy or negatively compare their results to other ICEV businesses that don't have BEV losses right now. 

If company A is making $3B a year on ICEV and losing $2B a year on new BEV development, and company B is making $1.2B on a year on ICEV sales on smaller volume but has no BEV division, company A looks bad if they're only reporting $1B in earnings on higher volume. But if you break it out, it shows that company A is very healthy in their core market and is investing to develop products for the future, while company B is a smaller company that is sitting on their hands and might be in trouble with no product to sell when BEVs become fully mainstream. 

All of this is basic stuff. But it's not as sexy as "company A is losing a bunch of money on EVs!"
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MikeDeTiger on December 14, 2023, 05:09:36 PM
IMO, that's really a poor way to look at it.  In the end, it doesn't matter what your unit cost profits/losses are.  That's not nearly as important as overall product profit/loss, and generally products that aren't profitable are laid to rest by the free market.  If I sell a unit at 60k that only cost me 50k to make, I still don't really have profit if the department at large has cost me $2 bil and I've sold $1.3 bil.  Hiding the loss within a larger company with other profitable divisions is no sign of health for the division either, and companies that do this long-term will usually fold those products, as they should.  

The mechanism you're describing is what's called the "push" model, where a company attempts to introduce something the public didn't know it wanted.  There's a longer leash there, and various companies will have various timelines for allowing something to become profitable or not.  Things get even less economically sound when subsidies get involved.  But that in itself tells you something about the EVs in general, and perhaps a brand-specific EV in particular.  The fact it's not a "pull" economic model--where the consumer demands a company make something for them--says a lot about the demand and thus the viability of the product as currently constituted. 

That's not to say there aren't great successes within pushed products....there certainly are.  But they're going to fail at a much higher clip than pull products.  If they're allowed to fail in a free market, that is.  Again, subsidies crash any supply/demand equilibrium I've ever seen.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 14, 2023, 05:20:12 PM
I accept that putting out any new product costs money, even just a mild refresh of say a Chevy Malibu.  You don't make money on the first few units, you hope to make it later.  Where I worked, the big thing was called "case volume", or cases.  It was an attempt to put disparate things into a financial framework, like diapers and laundry detergent.  The saying was we only made money on the last cases we sold, the first bunch was to break even off investment (and operating costs).

So, the idea here obviously is that down the road, EVs will be profitable on a unit basis but they have to spend a lot now to get in the game.  And they can't sell them at their actual cost plus because no one would buy them.

So, they discount them, to get sales up, and then hope margins come later.

The problem I'm seeing is none of them make sense for the individual buyer.  Maybe the Chevy Bolt is close-ish.  And this $7500 isn't enough to close that gap.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on December 14, 2023, 05:43:15 PM
IMO, that's really a poor way to look at it.  In the end, it doesn't matter what your unit cost profits/losses are.  That's not nearly as important as overall product profit/loss, and generally products that aren't profitable are laid to rest by the free market.  If I sell a unit at 60k that only cost me 50k to make, I still don't really have profit if the department at large has cost me $2 bil and I've sold $1.3 bil.  Hiding the loss within a larger company with other profitable divisions is no sign of health for the division either, and companies that do this long-term will usually fold those products, as they should. 

The mechanism you're describing is what's called the "push" model, where a company attempts to introduce something the public didn't know it wanted.  There's a longer leash there, and various companies will have various timelines for allowing something to become profitable or not.  Things get even less economically sound when subsidies get involved.  But that in itself tells you something about the EVs in general, and perhaps a brand-specific EV in particular.  The fact it's not a "pull" economic model--where the consumer demands a company make something for them--says a lot about the demand and thus the viability of the product as currently constituted. 

That's not to say there aren't great successes within pushed products....there certainly are.  But they're going to fail at a much higher clip than pull products.  If they're allowed to fail in a free market, that is.  Again, subsidies crash any supply/demand equilibrium I've ever seen. 
I agree with a LOT of what you just said there. However, I think to an extent a company like Ford is realizing that they have to lose money now on EVs to learn the technology and develop the products that make money later. 

There *is* demand for EVs. We posted upthread that US EV sales are up 50% YoY. That's demand. Right now it's not a great market for sellers because a bunch of new entrants jumped in all at once and so supply exceeds demand at current prices. Trust me, being in the data storage industry, I know how painful the market is when that happens. There's no such thing as oversupply--people will buy more X if you sell it cheap enough. There's only oversupply at financially sustainable sales prices!

Tesla lost money for a decade+ before they built enough volume to be profitable. They also basically made the market. I honestly believe that VW, Ford, Hyundai/Kia, Chevy, etc were SMART to wait until that market had been built to enter it. They let Tesla be the "push" guinea pig and take the risk. But it also means that they're behind and are going to lose money in that segment until they can spin up enough volume to be profitable in their EV divisions. And part of that is based on the presumption that battery prices will decline over time, opening up the cheaper product swim lanes since BEVs are mostly a luxury-priced item now. 

Now, maybe it *IS* bad business. With the portion of BEV cost that is battery-dependent and with all of these vendors being dependent on the companies that have legitimate battery tech, there's a chance that the long-term idea is that someone like Panasonic or LG or CATL decide that it's better to acquire an automaker and vertically integrate rather than just selling them batteries. That way they can capture more of the value chain based on their battery tech. I don't know--the next decade could be REALLY interesting. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MikeDeTiger on December 14, 2023, 05:54:29 PM
Well, that's the eternal problem.  The only way to know if it's bad business is to wait until the future gets here and see how it went.  If I lose a billion+ for 9 years, and then on my tenth make tens of billions, well, I'm a success who weathered the necessary storm.  If it never materializes, I'm a goat who's run off by the board for not knowing when to cut my losses. 

There just always a conversation to be had about producing something not many were asking for.  Sometimes that ultimately goes very well.  A lot of times it doesn't. 

But again, we're not in a real free market here, where consumers and producers are doing whatever they want.  Just as the current model skews basic economics with subsidies, so does environmental awareness campaigns and popular dogmas skew what people "want."  i.e., John Doe may never care a lick about EV's, but maybe he cares about reducing global warming and then decides investing in an EV is a good goal. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on December 14, 2023, 06:04:08 PM
I accept that putting out any new product costs money, even just a mild refresh of say a Chevy Malibu.  You don't make money on the first few units, you hope to make it later.  Where I worked, the big thing was called "case volume", or cases.  It was an attempt to put disparate things into a financial framework, like diapers and laundry detergent.  The saying was we only made money on the last cases we sold, the first bunch was to break even off investment (and operating costs).

So, the idea here obviously is that down the road, EVs will be profitable on a unit basis but they have to spend a lot now to get in the game.  And they can't sell them at their actual cost plus because no one would buy them.

So, they discount them, to get sales up, and then hope margins come later.

The problem I'm seeing is none of them make sense for the individual buyer.  Maybe the Chevy Bolt is close-ish.  And this $7500 isn't enough to close that gap.
But where we disagree is that I believe that for most companies, EVs *are* profitable on an individual unit basis but aren't profitable on a business unit basis because of the start-up costs each automaker is incurring. It's a much bigger transition than just releasing a refreshed Malibu, so you have to expect the losses will be larger and the payback period to break-even be longer. 

However I think you're flat wrong on the "none of them make sense for the individual buyer". And it's because you're comparing disparate products and disparate buyers. Yes, name "Blazer" refers to both an ICEV and BEV model. And yes, the base ICEV Blazer starts at $35,400 and the Blazer EV starts at $56,715. But the person looking at that base Blazer isn't a prospective EV buyer and the person looking at the EV version wouldn't be caught dead in the base Blazer. They're different buyers. 

And if you're comparing a buyer who prefers to buy used and spend $20K with a buyer who leases or buys new for vehicles with sticker prices at $50K+, then of COURSE it won't make financial sense for the $20K used buyer to buy a brand new luxury EV. But for buyers in that the luxury segment, it can absolutely make sense. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on December 14, 2023, 06:14:59 PM
Well, that's the eternal problem.  The only way to know if it's bad business is to wait until the future gets here and see how it went.  If I lose a billion+ for 9 years, and then on my tenth make tens of billions, well, I'm a success who weathered the necessary storm.  If it never materializes, I'm a goat who's run off by the board for not knowing when to cut my losses. 

There just always a conversation to be had about producing something not many were asking for.  Sometimes that ultimately goes very well.  A lot of times it doesn't. 

But again, we're not in a real free market here, where consumers and producers are doing whatever they want.  Just as the current model skews basic economics with subsidies, so does environmental awareness campaigns and popular dogmas skew what people "want."  i.e., John Doe may never care a lick about EV's, but maybe he cares about reducing global warming and then decides investing in an EV is a good goal. 
Well, there is a way to manage those predictions. If you think EVs are bad business, you can short Ford / Chevy stock. Or you can merely not invest in them and invest in automakers that aren't chasing EVs. Or in a different sector entirely. I don't invest in Tesla for the various reasons I've said where I think they're overvalued trying to present themselves as a "tech" company with the resultant P/E multiples,, instead of a car company. The market is buying it (for now); I'm not. I don't short them because I don't have that level of risk tolerance, but I'm not going to buy their stock. 

I don't want to come across as some BEV stan here... I'm in a lot of ways arguing Devil's advocate as I see both sides but most of you are only arguing one... So if I see what are bad or non-credible arguments, I'm going to call them out. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 14, 2023, 07:21:35 PM
Is good. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MikeDeTiger on December 15, 2023, 07:00:42 AM
I don't want to come across as some BEV stan here... I'm in a lot of ways arguing Devil's advocate as I see both sides but most of you are only arguing one... So if I see what are bad or non-credible arguments, I'm going to call them out.

Oh, I don't really have a "side," and I have no idea how it will all play out in the long term.  EV's make zero sense for me personally, and also for nearly everybody in my sphere, and I'm not sure how much that's likely to change.....so maybe that's my "side."  That obviously has no bearing on whether or not manufacturers will ultimately be successful.  A successful product doesn't need my purchase, and a lot of them don't even need most people's purchases.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 15, 2023, 07:46:25 AM
Saw one of these on the road yesterday. It's what I want.

(https://i.imgur.com/4PvtAU9.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 15, 2023, 07:56:43 AM
We're discussing this to try and make sense of it, and predict likely futures.  None of us seem to have a side.  I think we'd all be fine with EVs if they were the better type for us personally, but so far, none of us have one.  Most of us MIGHT have one someday.  The exchange is good for figuring out when that day COULD happen.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 15, 2023, 08:13:46 AM
Back in the day, my wife leased her cars three years.  One was coming up to end, and she didn't want to buy it (it was a nice car).  OK, I had a pretty nice Caddy CTS a bit long in the teeth, so I loaned it to her to use.  I still needed something to run about town, so I used a bunch of GM Mastercard dollars to buy a Chevy Sonic hatchback.  It was a pretty decent car, cheap with $3,000 off the top, and I got an OK deal on it.  I drove it a while, I was still working.

I'm thinking today, I COULD have bought a Chevy Bolt.  I didn't drive very far in a day, maybe 30 miles.  We had a garage and I could have put in a 220v line if not a main charger deal.  I've said before, were I in this situation today I'd look at the Bolt as a possibly viable option for me.

One issue of course is that I didn't drive very far, so gas savings would have been minimal, the 30 miles needed about one gallon a day at $2 a gallon.  Around here regular is about $2.50 today which is really cheap.

So, even then, it would make sense.  Even today for us if we wanted a second car, it wouldn't make sense.  We could get by with an EV today except for trips and I could rent something for the few driving trips we do each year.  Maybe a PHEV would make sense, but in my view currently, the standard hybrid is the way for us to go.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 15, 2023, 08:46:29 AM
I get the sense that it's not OK to simply say you just don't want an EV.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 15, 2023, 08:46:53 AM
Chevy’s New Blazer EV RS Is An Incredibly Normal EV (jalopnik.com) (https://jalopnik.com/chevy-s-new-blazer-ev-rs-is-an-incredibly-normal-ev-1851091218?utm_campaign=Jalopnik&utm_content=1702477801&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR1sNH1Ybq06PwfEP6ZEy3-w6zGvKHRU-0ubMndiGHSHo9tB9v8i9t-yPkQ)

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 15, 2023, 08:50:31 AM
I get the sense that it's not OK to simply say you just don't want an EV.
Sure, in a sense, you are right.  This is the "social signaling" we see around us fairly often.  The same is true I think for showing one isn't a racist by marching in some BLM protest, or cheering for "Palestine", or marching for climate change, etc. etc. etc.  There is a large component of knee jerk reactionism for some people.  Whatever is on "their side" is what they support, few of them ever think "Well, OK I'm for this, but not that."  March to the same drummer.

I think it's also true on both sides, I've seen some disparage EVs well beyond any discussion of their attributes, calling the "golf carts" etc. and saying "I'll never buy one, period."  All that, to me, is signaling also.  This is MY SIDE.

To think through a thing and note positives and negatives is more nuanced, and difficult.  It's easier just to follow whatever YOUR SIDE tells you.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 15, 2023, 08:59:58 AM
My mind says it doesn't make sense for us to have an EV. I've done the math, and it just doesn't work. Also, I LIKE how the performance ICE's sound and feel.

As an aside, we are in the process of trading in our Evolution golf cart for a gas one - <3 years in and the battery is failing.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on December 15, 2023, 09:00:07 AM
It's a simple financial decision for me. 
Don't like wasting money. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 15, 2023, 09:15:12 AM
It's financial for most folks, including me, along with meeting other needs like space etc.

At this point, an EV is feasible if you don't drive much, and only around town, but then you don't save much relative to gasoline.  We aren't there yet, in my view.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on December 15, 2023, 09:45:56 AM
I'm not sure you can save much money regardless of how many miles you drive. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 15, 2023, 09:54:40 AM
I think eventually it could pay out, down the road, for some, depending on gas prices.  "Could".  There are a lot of variables.  But let's say it does in six years, is it worth the known problems?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on December 15, 2023, 09:58:32 AM
Ed Zachary 

5 or 6 years of "could " isn't enough to motivate me
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 15, 2023, 10:01:02 AM
Nor any of us here, but it's useful to go through the exercise and see how they could work in certain situations.

THen we're all informed.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 15, 2023, 10:13:00 AM
I'm informed. I've done the research and I know enough to state that it doesn't make sense for us.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 15, 2023, 10:28:06 AM
The question, for me, is whether it will make sense for a lot of folks any time soonish.

The next vehicle I buy could well be our last, which might be true for several others here.  I think my wife wants one next year.  Bummer.  I'll look at the Honda, Toyota, BMW, and Hyundai hybrid versions of the "CR-V", maybe another one, all around $40 K, which is rather astounding, to me.  Keeping the GTI would be my preference, I really like that car.

I'm going to delay until she gets more insistent.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 15, 2023, 10:33:30 AM
Volvo CEO says what lack of EV demand? Orders remain strong (electrek.co) (https://electrek.co/2023/12/13/volvo-lack-of-ev-demand-orders-strong/?fbclid=IwAR38gpbrm4BglrHk252Yg-GkngGuUgNmSt4R2qxNzIqlIwi_5i1S1LhOI58)

The thing is, of course, orders can be strong if supply is somewhat limited.  An over supply would mean orders are not strong enough.  The issue is not really that orders are down, they aren't, it's that they have not kept up with new supply.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on December 15, 2023, 10:41:51 AM
It's not just financial. If it was financial, we'd see a lot more Hondas and Fords and Hyundais on the road and a lot fewer BMWs and Mercs and Porsches. 

If it was just financial, Badge wouldn't be driving a fancy-ass Merc and lusting over a Porsche Macan. He owns vehicles like that because he likes them and has the means

If it was just financial, Lexus and Acura (and Lincoln and Cadillac) wouldn't exist. They're just an upbadged Toyota/Honda/Ford/Chevy. But they do. 

I'm very utilitarian when it comes to cars. But even for me when family changes forced me to move up from the truck, I bought a Jeep Wrangler Rubicon. Did I really "need" the Rubicon model? No. But I wanted it. When I got divorced and didn't have access to a family minivan and needed something larger than the Jeep, I bought a Ford Flex Limited because I wanted the upgraded sound system and the panoramic sunroof in the back seats (and because my soon-to-be FIL had an SEL model and I wanted the higher level trim). So even as a utilitarian I've spent up for unnecessary things. 

There is an emotional component to buying a vehicle. For some people, there's value and they WANT an EV. Maybe they want to be seen as ahead of the curve. Or maybe they view Tesla as "cool" in the way that Apple folks think Apple is "cool" and not just another damn phone. Or maybe they think they're doing something good for the environment. 

Or maybe they just hate filling their car with gas every week or so and like the idea that their car has a "full tank" every single morning they wake up because they plug it into their charger when they get home the previous day. It's like your cellphone. Plug it in at night and it's ready to go in the morning. People make it sound like charging an EV is the equivalent of trying to find an outlet to charge your cellphone, in a crowded airport, in 2012. Yeah, if charging an EV was like that, it'd be hell lol. 

As I've said, when my next vehicle purchase comes up, an EV is within my realm of consideration. The financial bit does weigh highly for me with vehicles, but as I mentioned above, I up-spent for a more capable off-roading vehicle than I needed for someone who almost never goes off-road (and hasn't been anywhere the "Rubicon" package mattered), and up-spent for a more full-featured trim package than I needed in the Flex. So if it comes down to it and I decide I really WANT an EV? I have the means and I'll buy it. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 15, 2023, 10:47:53 AM
It's financial for a lot of folks, not for many of us here (meaning we can pretty much buy what we want within reason).

Folks do buy BMWs because of their cache', not because they are really better than a Honda.  And it is for many an emotional decision.  When I walk onto a car lot and tell a salesman I'm interested in Model Q, his first question almost without exception is "What color?".

Color, for me, is well down the list of criteria.  WELL down.  But apparently it's near the top for many.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on December 15, 2023, 11:06:58 AM
It's financial for a lot of folks, not for many of us here (meaning we can pretty much buy what we want within reason).

Folks do buy BMWs because of their cache', not because they are really better than a Honda.  And it is for many an emotional decision.  When I walk onto a car lot and tell a salesman I'm interested in Model Q, his first question almost without exception is "What color?".

Color, for me, is well down the list of criteria.  WELL down.  But apparently it's near the top for many.
Yeah, and it's emotional for a lot of folks too. You've all heard my complaints about leasing. Not that leasing is a bad idea; there are instances where it makes sense. But that too many people lease vehicles so that they can drive something nicer than they could afford to buy, and THAT is a bad idea. 

Think of say, a new college grad going off to her first job, making $38K/year. She wants to drive a cute little 3-series BMW. She can't afford it, of course. She COULD afford a 3-year used Civic with low miles, completely pay it off in 3 years, and have an asset. But the lease deal BMW is throwing out means that she can pay just a bit more monthly than the 3-year repayment cost of the Honda, so suddenly the lease wins out. Emotions >> finances.

There are a LOT of people in this world that think this way. They want the best car that they can get for the maximum monthly payment they can afford, and if that means it's just a lease and there's no path to ownership, well as long as the monthly nut works, they'll do it. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 15, 2023, 11:10:45 AM
If it was just financial, Badge wouldn't be driving a fancy-ass Merc and lusting over a Porsche Macan. He owns vehicles like that because he likes them and has the means.
That's a Cayenne I showed. Macan is too small.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on December 15, 2023, 11:11:59 AM
That's a Cayenne I showed. Macan is too small.
Fair enough. I knew it wasn't a Taycan :57:
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MikeDeTiger on December 15, 2023, 11:54:53 AM
I get the sense that it's not OK to simply say you just don't want an EV.

I just don't want an EV.

Even if I could afford one--which I can't--I wouldn't buy one because I don't see the point when the technology that powers every vehicle I've owned is still perfectly fine and infrastructure is far more widely available and affordable at all points.  I'm not much of a change for the sake of change guy.  Without a good reason to move me out of my current paradigm into a new one, I just want to drive whatever versions of ICEs I can afford.  I'm not actively against EVs, but I'm unlikely to ever see their point for me unless and until ICEs start becoming problematic for me and EVs offer a solution.  

Y'all mentioned an emotional component.  That probably is in there for me somewhere as well.  I used to work in the oil and gas industry and I know tons of people who make solid livings in it.  People who don't have the education to go start a new career and remain at a nice, livable income they currently have.  Like the railroad, refineries, things like that, the O&G industry employees a lot of "regular people" and allows families a good living.  I worry that EVs could ultimately eat into domestic (or even foreign) production enough to begin negatively affecting those jobs.  The industry already has enough ups and downs for those folks to weather, I'd hate to see something added to those swings, or certainly cause less jobs permanently.  I have no idea how likely that is.  I just know I don't want to see it.  I also remain unconvinced that EVs are a net positive for global warming or that it's even an imminent threat that requires a new mode of transportation.  

To sum up, I just don't want an EV.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 15, 2023, 12:14:00 PM
I would want an EV at some point, I suspect, they do have significant advantages.  The "dis" parts are too great now, for me, that could change.  I think the range most have is OK, but recharging is not for various reasons noted.  The cost is not OK.  Expense of operation is good.  Handling and acceleration are generally quite good.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on December 15, 2023, 12:19:50 PM
I would want an EV at some point, I suspect, they do have significant advantages.  The "dis" parts are too great now, for me, that could change.  I think the range most have is OK, but recharging is not for various reasons noted.  The cost is not OK.  Expense of operation is good.  Handling and acceleration are generally quite good.
Yeah, the recharging thing is a problem for you based on your living situation. If you (or anyone) has to rely on third-party charging for 100% of your usage, the electricity rates you'll be charged are WAY higher than if you have your own home and a home charger. It ends up screwing anyone who lives in an apartment or condo complex at this point. 

It's one of the things that would stop me if I were in the market right now. I don't own this home and I'm not paying to install a charger in my landlord's house... And he's a cheap bastard and I'm sure wouldn't pay for it himself (even if it might help him get higher rents in the future). I'm hoping the real estate market makes it possible that I'll have my own house before my next car purchase. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 15, 2023, 12:24:32 PM
Public charging systems that charge based on kWh average anywhere between $0.30 and $0.60 per kWh compared to $0.16 per kWh at home.

An EV needs about 33 kWhr to go 100 miles.  You can see that at 60 cents, the thing is way off the mark, $20 for 100 miles of range.  

That would be 3 gallons of gas in my GTI on the highway, 4 gallons around town, at $3/gallon for premium at Costco.  You HAVE to charge at home (mostly) for it to work at all.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on December 15, 2023, 12:30:53 PM
I would say that those ranges are pretty wide, with the $0.60/kWh probably being California. But of course in California, home electricity rates are high, and gas prices are high, relative to the rest of the country. 

But the point stands. Public charging is going to be 2-3x the expense of at-home charging, even in CA, which means that if you're relying on public charging, the economics don't work. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 15, 2023, 12:41:28 PM
I had considered a PHEV, but even at 30 cents per kWhr, I don't think it works.  The Tuscon regular hybrid supposedly get 37 mpg in the city, on regular, so 100 miles here would cost me about $7 in gas.  And $10 in electricity.

The main incentive for the hybrid is it has more power than the ICE Tuscon.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on December 15, 2023, 03:17:55 PM
doubt you really need the extra power

must be an emotional thing
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 15, 2023, 03:24:50 PM
My wife likes fast cars. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 15, 2023, 03:36:52 PM
How fast?

(https://i.imgur.com/NS5gHOB.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 15, 2023, 04:29:27 PM
The GTI is fine she says. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on December 15, 2023, 04:41:59 PM
I'm pretty sure something in the 0-60mph in 3 seconds and a 1/4 mile time of 11 sec flat would be fast enough for me

165mph on a murder cycle was pretty fast back in the late 80's
Don't need to be going much faster than that - maybe 180mph
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on December 15, 2023, 05:13:00 PM
Hell, my motorcycle with a mere 66 hp was still capable of pulling 0-60 in <3 sec. Not with my big ass on it, of course...

Due to the horrible aero of any motorcycle, and a mere 66 hp, top speed was about 125 mph. I might have hit 115-120, and that was fast enough for me. 

Even on the racetrack, I knew that there was a lot more fun going fast while cornering than just making top speed runs. 

But hell, tipping into turn 1 at the Streets of Willow Springs at 110 mph was a rush. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on December 15, 2023, 06:13:17 PM
my 87 Hurricane 1000 had 130 hp

0-60 3 sec
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on December 15, 2023, 06:29:19 PM
my 87 Hurricane 1000 had 130 hp

0-60 3 sec
Yep. '01 Suzuki SV650. 0-60 was 3.2s with half the HP. 

But while a 650cc V-twin might have the grunt down low, it's not going to have the top-end HP numbers of a 4-cyl 1000cc motor. Looking it up on google, despite the higher displacement that Hurricane had a higher redline. 

But it's a motorcycle. 0-60 is going to be based on gearing and the fundamental issue that you have to keep the front wheel on the ground for optimal acceleration. Off the line, there's only so much usable power you can access. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on December 15, 2023, 06:43:54 PM
yup, back in 87 the rear tire wasn't very fat

best I could do was come out with the rear tire spinning and the front tire in the air

it was a bit tricky but I had plenty of practice
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 16, 2023, 06:47:59 AM
The GTI takes about 6 seconds 0-60.  The nice thing, for me, is when I'm on the highway and want to speed up to get around a truck or something from say 70 mph, I don't have to downshift, it has plenty of low end torque.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 16, 2023, 08:44:48 AM
Fastest I've ever gone is 164 in my 944 Turbo. That was a long time ago. No need for that anymore. That was a pretty car back in the day. I wouldn't mind finding another one to play around with.

(https://i.imgur.com/SAkJTpY.png)

I know @Honestbuckeye (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=37) still dabbles in the speed category.

I'm comfortable at 100 or so. Anything more than that is a little much. There's really nowhere around here to do that anyway.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 16, 2023, 08:47:44 AM
FYI, speedometers back in the day were very optimistic once a car got over 100 mph.  They could be off 20 mph or more.  Porsche probably was better at it.

1989 944 Turbo Coupe (951) | Specs | Excellence | The Magazine About Porsche (excellence-mag.com) (https://www.excellence-mag.com/resources/specs/289)

Factory top speed was 162, so you were probably close.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 16, 2023, 08:50:01 AM
The 0-60 time was 5.7 seconds, which is close to what a modern GTI will do.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Honestbuckeye on December 16, 2023, 08:59:35 AM
I still like going fast, but only at the right place and time.   

Try to go to the strip or/and road course once a year. 

But me and Mrs HB will take 2 cars out early on Saturday or Sunday and drive 20-30 minutes inland where the roads are flat, smooth and empty. Fun to get up to 150 ish. 

Unfortunately- those are the only ways to safely enjoy the kind of cars I like - with the exception of the occasional entrance or exit ramps that are empty. 

Anything that is slower than 4.0 in the 0-60 or 11.9 in the 1/4 mile ( including SUVs) is slow to me.   
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 16, 2023, 09:05:54 AM
With my budget, I'm basically looking for something that will accelerate from 70 mph decently well without downshifting and flooring it, and feels reasonably perky around town.  The fastest I've driven is in a CTS-V at COTA on the back straight.  I didn't look down to check my speed, the instructors told us we should be over 140.  Stuff was going by quite rapidly and I focused on steering and when to brake.

We ABUSED those brakes so much they told us they replaced the pads and tires after one day's event.  That was a fun time.

In a Cessna doing 140 of course is pretty much nothing.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 16, 2023, 09:12:24 AM
I like having power out of the gate and the ability to effortlessly pass.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 16, 2023, 09:24:58 AM
I like a lot of things, but will settle for what makes basic sense, usually.

I like high end Burgundy wines, but those days are pretty much over.  We did splurge a bit on the condo, but it's worth it, to us.

I at times check how much it would cost to upgrade from Delta Comfort to Delta One and laugh, to myself, no chance.

They want $330 per to upgrade to first class for one leg of our upcoming trip.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 16, 2023, 09:28:09 AM
I like having power out of the gate and the ability to effortlessly pass.
Power out of the gate is one thing EVs generally are quite good at.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on December 16, 2023, 10:04:47 AM
Power out of the gate is one thing EVs generally are quite good at. 
Yeah, and as I pointed out, there are cars out there with deceptive HP numbers that require you "drive it like you stole it" to be in the powerband. The old Honda S2000 was notorious for this, with a 9K RPM redline and a powerband that peaked up in that range. For example, here's a dyno I've found of a stock S2000 (https://www.s2ki.com/forums/s2000-talk-1/s2000-dyno-charts-833293/). 


(https://i.imgur.com/ZJeBZwa.png)

I complain about this with my Flex, honestly. Reported HP numbers are 285 hp, but the motor has variable valve timing that only really opens it up at high RPM. And a Flex, of course, is not designed to be driven at high RPM. I could have gotten the EcoBoost engine which is turbocharged, which would have made a big difference there as turbo engines help with low-end torque. Of course, the EcoBoost models cos about $5K more, and research I did on the vehicle reported issues with the AWD on those models, so I avoided it.

Now compare that to an EV. Below are the torque/HP curves of two model 3's both in performance mode and "chill" mode (https://nationalspeedinc.com/tesla-dyno/). 

(https://i.imgur.com/qMCykjr.png)

Those torque curves suggest you're not gonna have ANY trouble off the line or accelerating to highway speed. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 16, 2023, 10:15:57 AM
I like a lot of things, but will settle for what makes basic sense, usually.

I like high end Burgundy wines, but those days are pretty much over.  We did splurge a bit on the condo, but it's worth it, to us.

I at times check how much it would cost to upgrade from Delta Comfort to Delta One and laugh, to myself, no chance.

They want $330 per to upgrade to first class for one leg of our upcoming trip. 
If what you like is within your means, it makes sense.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 16, 2023, 10:16:08 AM
AWD helps a lot as well of course once you pass a certain power level.  I'd guess some EV buyers like that feeling, it impresses them these aren't "golf carts".  And they can smoke Camaros if they want to.

The new Corvette E-ray has an interesting design, it's apparently not much faster than a Stingray 0-60, but it's tougher to get times down from 3 seconds.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 16, 2023, 10:20:36 AM
My wife, fortunately, is pretty sensible about spending.  But she does like top of the line items often as not.  She says she'd rather do without than buy something not good enough.  We splurge on cabins when we cruise.  I'll pay for the extra leg room in Comfort seats over Main Cabin.  We dine out fairly often.  I signed four of us up for a tour to the top of Mauna Kea next week, that was pricey.  Hopefully the weather cooperates. Last time we were there, it was cancelled three nights in a row.

She didn't want to dine out this week because she knows we'll be spending a fair bit on our trip (two weeks).

But buying an EV has to make sense, to me, and it doesn't.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 16, 2023, 10:34:54 AM
I like the McClaren cars - a lot.

I'll never own one unless a pile of money falls into my lap. They are simply not practical for us, so it's not a car for a one-car household, which is what we are (well, and that crappy EV golf cart).
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on December 16, 2023, 10:40:03 AM
I'm an American car guy

but, if the right Porsche came along I could pull the trigger
Finding a good mechanic might be an issue
couldn't afford a new one and nearest dealership is 90 miles away
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 16, 2023, 11:26:06 AM
Next car will be a GLE, most likely. Probably the GLE43. I like the AMG enhancements. 

(https://i.imgur.com/JmOI5wS.png)

The full AMG GLE63 is pretty pricey and has way more power than I'd ever use. 

The 43 makes almost 400HP. The 63 makes over 600HP.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on December 16, 2023, 12:03:21 PM
My pitching coach has a nice looking GLE.  He likes it, I think it's the standard model.

2024 Mercedes-Benz GLE-Class Review, Pricing, and Specs (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/mercedes-benz/gle-class)

The 0-60 times are indicative of something real, I think, but can be misleading at times, or even somewhat irrelevant.  We rarely bury the loud pedal, or use launch control.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on December 16, 2023, 09:51:13 PM
launch control is cool

but, it's cheating
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on December 21, 2023, 09:04:48 AM
DETROIT (AP) — America’s automakers have staked their futures on the notion that electric vehicles will dominate sales in the coming years, spurred by buyers determined to reduce carbon emissions and save on fuel.

But so far, while EV sales are growing, their pace is falling well short of the industry’s ambitious timetable for transitioning away from combustion engines. Instead, buyers are increasingly embracing a quarter-century-old technology whose popularity has been surging: The gas-electric hybrid, which alternates from gas to battery power to maximize efficiency.

So far in 2023, Americans have bought a record 1 million-plus hybrids — up 76% from the same period last year, according to Edmunds.com. As recently as last year, purchases had fallen below 2021’s total. This year’s figures don’t even include sales of 148,000 plug-in hybrids, which drive a short distance on battery power before a gas-electric system kicks in.


https://apnews.com/article/hybrids-electric-vehicles-auto-sales-charging-stations-97b444cfa752acbd3a5c244a3ee68abb (https://apnews.com/article/hybrids-electric-vehicles-auto-sales-charging-stations-97b444cfa752acbd3a5c244a3ee68abb)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on January 12, 2024, 09:51:01 AM
Hertz Has a Loss on Its EV Fleet. Blame Tesla Pricing Decisions.

Rental car giant Hertz is selling 20,000 all-electric vehicles. The sale will generate a loss of about $245 million. Investors aren’t happy.

The offloading of the vehicles will cut the company's global EV fleet by one-third, Hertz said in a filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission.

"The company expects this action to better balance supply against expected demand of EVs," the company said.

Hertz said it expects the sale of the EVs to "take place in an orderly fashion over the course of 2024." It started offloading them late last year.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on January 12, 2024, 12:07:12 PM
Maine has received a $15 million federal grant to install nearly 600 electric vehicle charging stations in more than 70 cities and towns, increasing the number available by more than 50%.

The Biden administration on Thursday announced the funding to pay for 62 DC Fast Charger ports and 520 Level 2 charging ports. The 582 ports will add to the 1,019 already in operation at 467 sites, according to Efficiency Maine, the quasi-state agency that develops energy efficiency programs.

Building out an EV charging network has been a critical part of the debate in Maine over establishing new rules requiring electric vehicle use. An “Advanced Clean Cars II” plan would require zero-emission vehicles to make up 43% of new car sales for 2028 models and 82% of new sales by model year 2032. Those include electric and fuel-cell vehicles, along with a partial credit for plug-in hybrids. Environmentalists are urging action to reduce tailpipe fumes that account for a large part of Maine’s greenhouse gas emissions.

The proposal has drawn criticism from car dealers, Republicans and others who say EVs are too costly for many Mainers and that EVs don’t have the charging range to drive across the state’s vast rural areas. The state Board of Environmental Protection postponed its vote on the proposal in December due to a storm, but now could take up the matter sometime after a new public comment period that ends Feb. 5.

https://www.pressherald.com/2024/01/11/maine-receives-15m-federal-grant-to-install-hundreds-of-electric-vehicle-chargers/ (https://www.pressherald.com/2024/01/11/maine-receives-15m-federal-grant-to-install-hundreds-of-electric-vehicle-chargers/)

The number of registered battery and plug-in hybrid electric vehicles in Maine has increased by 33%, from 9,244 in 2022 to 12,369 at the end of last year, the governor’s office said.

Adam Lee, chairman of the board of Lee Auto Malls, said being able to charge electric vehicles when not at home is one of several factors that customers consider. His dealerships are selling only about five or six EVs a month, a small share of the 600 to 700 vehicles he sells, even with “very good incentives,” he said.

Until recently Lee said his dealerships had trouble getting inventory because of limited supply, though more are now being delivered.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MrNubbz on January 12, 2024, 01:17:16 PM
What about the Grid? Cut funding to all the bullshit special interests left and right. These short sighted suck asses they really should be caned then tasered
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on January 12, 2024, 02:58:27 PM
62 DC Fast Charger ports and 520 Level 2 charging ports spread out aren't going to bother the grid
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MrNubbz on January 12, 2024, 03:46:22 PM
Well if it's going to go forward like these loons want it will
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on January 12, 2024, 03:59:01 PM
patience my man

it will burn down soon enough
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on January 14, 2024, 02:35:15 PM
Jan 11 (Reuters) - Lucid Group (LCID.O) said on Thursday its deliveries and production fell in the fourth quarter from a year earlier, sending its shares down to a record low.

High interest rates have weakened demand for EVs as customers cut back on big-ticket purchases, which has prompted automakers such as Ford (F.N) and General Motors (GM.N) to push back their planned EV and battery factory expansion plans.

Lucid has also been hit by a price war started by market leader Tesla a year ago (TSLA.O) to solidify its EV market share and combat slowing demand.


"With (Lucid) shares hitting a new record low, we see little in the way of fundamental or technical support for the stock and expect additional lows to be set," said Garrett Nelson, senior equity analyst at CFRA Research in a research note.

Lucid's deliveries fell about 10% to 1,734 vehicles in the three months to Dec. 31, compared with 1,932 units it handed over in the year-ago quarter.

Sector peer Rivian (RIVN.O) missed market expectations for deliveries in the final quarter of 2023 due to a broader slowdown in EV demand in the United States.


Lucid's production fell about 31% to 2,391 vehicles in the quarter, taking its annual production to 8,428 vehicles, in line with its lowered target of 8,000 to 8,500 units.

In November, the company cut down its earlier production forecast from more than 10,000 units, saying it needed "to prudently align (its output) with deliveries."

Shares of the company, backed by Saudi Arabia's Public Investment Fund (PIF), fell around 38% last year.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: MrNubbz on January 14, 2024, 03:12:18 PM
They want investments,wait untl the Spring when the Horse Track Opens like the rest of us
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on January 14, 2024, 08:03:49 PM
U.S. consumers looking to get a tax credit on an electric vehicle purchase have fewer models to choose from under new rules that limit the countries where automakers can buy battery parts and minerals — a potential blow to efforts to reduce planet-warming emissions from autos.

The Inflation Reduction Act signed into law in 2022 expanded tax credits ranging from $3,750 to $7,500 for purchases of new and used EVs, an effort by the Biden administration to stoke demand toward its goal that half of all new vehicle sales be electric by 2030. But qualifying for the credits depends on requirements related to their battery makeup and minerals that get tougher each year.


As of Jan. 1, new rules favor U.S. domestic materials and manufacture. The rules largely target battery components from nations “of concern” — mostly China, but also Russia, North Korea and Iran.

China dominates crucial parts of EV battery supply and production, even as automakers race to establish key mineral and components efforts elsewhere. As a result, only 13 of the more than 50 EVs on sale in the U.S. are eligible for the credits so far this year, down from about two dozen models that qualified in 2023.

The Tesla Model Y SUV, Chevrolet Bolt compact car and Rivian R1T pickup truck all still qualify. But even different trim levels and variants of the same model now qualify differently; certain Teslas are no longer eligible.

Neither are the Chevrolet Blazer SUV and the Cadillac Lyriq, from General Motors; the Ford Mustang Mach-E; or the Nissan Leaf.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Entropy on January 15, 2024, 02:16:42 PM
I would expect continued discounts at dealerships on EV's... they have inventory that is not moving.   
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on January 15, 2024, 02:25:01 PM
yup, they said something about the dealerships discounting to match what would have been the tax credit
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 15, 2024, 04:16:01 PM
https://www.wsj.com/articles/hertz-tesla-and-the-perils-of-groupthink-electric-vehicles-auto-industry-dd50c158?st=9an81su90iofyp8&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 16, 2024, 06:52:08 AM
Exhibit 10,469 against EV's.

Chicago-area Tesla charging stations lined with dead cars in freezing cold: 'A bunch of dead robots out here' (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/chicago-area-tesla-charging-stations-lined-with-dead-cars-in-freezing-cold-a-bunch-of-dead-robots-out-here/ar-AA1n1Q5i?ocid=msedgntp&pc=DCTS&cvid=489427b06ef0420f884e302e67799bcc&ei=22)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on January 16, 2024, 08:50:16 AM
hah, haven't heard anything about that here yet, but not many folks use the super stations.
Heck, there aren't many.
________________________________

One expert told the news outlet that cold weather can impact the ability of electric vehicles to charge properly.

"It’s not plug and go. You have to precondition the battery, meaning that you have to get the battery up to the optimal temperature to accept a fast charge," said Mark Bilek of the Chicago Auto Trade Association.

FOX Business has reached out to Tesla, but has not yet heard back.


_______________________________________________

and expert!

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Entropy on January 17, 2024, 07:00:56 PM
This is why they should have pushed hybrids.   You can slowly change battery-to-engine ratios (to an extent).  But not leave people in the cold.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on January 17, 2024, 11:04:54 PM
battery warmers are very simple

they're just expensive

like winterizing the windmills in Texas - not enough payback for the few times they're needed with extreme weather

but, knowing all this......... they should warn end users and have a plan "B"
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on January 19, 2024, 06:56:26 PM
Ford says it’s reducing production of the F-150 Lightning electric pickup vehicle as it adjusts to weaker-than-expected electric vehicle sales growth

Ford is cutting production of the F-150 Lightning electric pickup after weaker-than-expected electric vehicle sales growth.

While EV sales are growing in the U.S., the pace is falling well short of the industry’s ambitious timetable and many consumers are turning to hybrid vehicles instead.

Ford sold just over 24,000 Lightnings last year, up 55% from 2022. But dealers are reporting slower sales and rising inventories on the electric truck, which starts at just under $50,000.

Electric vehicle sales overall grew 47% to a record 1.19 million last year, according to Motorintelligence.com. The EV market share grew from 5.8% in 2022 to 7.6% last year. But EV sales growth slowed toward the end of the year. In December, they rose 34%.

Ford said that about 1,400 workers will be affected by the move to lower F-150 Lightning production, with the Rouge Electric Vehicle Center transitioning to one shift, effective April 1. Approximately 700 employees will transfer to Ford's Michigan Assembly Plant while other workers will be placed in roles at the Rouge Complex or other facilities in Southeast Michigan. Some employees are expected to take advantage of the Special Retirement Incentive Program agreed to in the 2023 Ford-UAW contract.

“We are taking advantage of our manufacturing flexibility to offer customers choices while balancing our growth and profitability,” Ford CEO Jim Farley said in a statement Friday.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 20, 2024, 11:06:40 AM
47% YoY unit sales growth and 31% YoY market share growth, both projected to got again in 2024. 

What a failure! :smiley_confused1:
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 20, 2024, 11:29:21 AM
Failure.

The F-150 Lightning drew oohs and aahs from the press when it was unveiled in May 2021. Yet the electric pickup has been plagued with defects that have required recalls. It sold a mere 24,165 Lightnings last year and lost roughly $36,000 on each EV in the third quarter.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/ford-f-150-lightning-production-electric-vehicles-biden-administration-1c3fc8d0?st=o41rdznplachc0i&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on January 20, 2024, 01:04:16 PM
47% YoY unit sales growth and 31% YoY market share growth, both projected to got again in 2024.

What a failure! :smiley_confused1:
according to Motorintelligence.com.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 25, 2024, 09:19:29 PM
https://www.businessinsider.com/ev-demand-still-strong-despite-slowdown-hybrids-survey-2024-1
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on January 26, 2024, 06:34:31 AM
And there is this math problem with EVs not charged at home.

Right now, I'm for mild hybrids broadly speaking.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on January 26, 2024, 08:55:38 AM
Florida Drivers Discover Hard Truth About EVs: They Eat Tires (jalopnik.com) (https://jalopnik.com/florida-drivers-discover-hard-truth-about-evs-they-eat-1851194045?utm_campaign=Jalopnik&utm_content=1706198403&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR1jbdliUqCinqgGCfVfG-A81Fwr7OEkquC81skI5d0BWrkd4Lmwy9mqews)

So why the fast wear? It’s a combination of lots of power that can be put down instantly and wild curb weights. But it also comes down to individual driving style, as Sanchez pointed out. “If you drive like grandma, the type of car shouldn’t make a difference,” Sanchez said.
What do tire companies have to say about all of this? They’re aware of the problem and are working on EV-specific solutions. Like Michelin who spoke to The Herald on what it’s up to:
Quote
Michelin suggests getting the Primacy tire for electric vehicles, which they say offers an up to 7% increase in range. Michelin also launched “Self seal” which would self-repair punctures and cut back on some weight by not needing to keep a spare wheel in the back.



Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 26, 2024, 09:20:26 AM
What are the differences in plug-in hybrid and regular hybrid?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on January 26, 2024, 09:22:13 AM
What are the differences in plug-in hybrid and regular hybrid?
You get 30-40 miles of initial range with the former on batteries alone.  They have larger batteries of course, and you can drive on electric "around town" usually.

Our hybrid gives you about 100 feet, and you can't plug it in.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 26, 2024, 10:14:24 AM
Yeah, a lot of PHEV owners buy them knowing 90%+ of their driving habits won't require going off battery, but having the capability is nice for people who think they can't live with a full BEV due to range anxiety. 

Although I think they may be a sort of "gateway drug" to full BEV. A lot of the ones I've talked to with PHEV find that they're actually only filling up their gas tank 2-3 times a year because the electric range covers almost all of their driving. So they look at a car with 200-300 miles of electric range and don't get the same range anxiety as someone switching from ICEV. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on January 26, 2024, 10:21:29 AM
There is still an issue with the cost of driving on electric if you can't plug in at home of course.  I see data showing commercial chargers cost 30-60 cents per kWHr for power, and it takes 30 or so kWhrs to go 100 miles.  Our basic hybrid goes 100 miles in town at about 36 mpg, so 2.8 gallons, which around here is under $3/gallon, so $8.33.


It's as cheap or cheaper to just buy the gas.  Maybe my math is wrong.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 26, 2024, 10:33:48 AM
There is still an issue with the cost of driving on electric if you can't plug in at home of course.  I see data showing commercial chargers cost 30-60 cents per kWHr for power, and it takes 30 or so kWhrs to go 100 miles.  Our basic hybrid goes 100 miles in town at about 36 mpg, so 2.8 gallons, which around here is under $3/gallon, so $8.33.


It's as cheap or cheaper to just buy the gas.  Maybe my math is wrong.
No, I completely agree. If you can't charge at home, most of the advantages of EV go right out the window. 

Even if the cost WAS lower to charge publicly, the bigger problem would be time. Requiring EVERY time you "fill up" to take 1/2 hour or so (typical for a 20->80 charge at a Tesla supercharger I believe) is just not convenient when the alternative is <5 minutes for ICEV. 

Although for a PHEV, when you only need to add 20-30 miles worth of range, you can do that on straight 110V AC overnight easily. In most cases, you don't need to install an L2 charger because unlike a full BEV, you're never adding 200 miles worth of range at once. If you have a BEV but drive mostly PHEV-like trips, as well, you can probably "get by" with 110V charging knowing that you may every once in a while need to publicly charge in a pinch. It's only if you're driving pretty heavy mileage on a daily basis that you *MUST* have the L2 charger. 

But if you can't charge at home at all, it doesn't make much sense. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 26, 2024, 10:36:53 AM
Do those plug-in's work on 110?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on January 26, 2024, 10:39:48 AM
I priced a car like mine that is a PHEV, same model, it cost about $6,000 more (and isn't available here).  It claimed about 35 miles electric range, which really sounds appealing until you look at the math for public chargers.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on January 26, 2024, 10:42:04 AM
Do those plug-in's work on 110?
They can, and usually should be fine as you don't need much power transfer.  A 110 v outlet will add 3-4 miles in an hour o charging, which is terrible if your EV gas 300 miles of range, but the plug ins only have ~35 miles of range.  So, you'd need ten hours for a full charge (which would not be typical).

Average electricity cost here is 12 cents per kWhr AT HOME, so it would work reasonaly well for folks with a home.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 26, 2024, 10:43:55 AM
I'd probably bust an extra circuit from the panel. I've got spots available. 20 Amp??
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on January 26, 2024, 10:46:13 AM
I'd probably bust an extra circuit from the panel. I've got spots available. 20 Amp??
20, 21... whatever it takes.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: grillrat on January 26, 2024, 11:49:44 AM
I'd probably bust an extra circuit from the panel. I've got spots available. 20 Amp??
That was my concern when we got our L2.  When we finished the basement on our house, we only had one slot left in our panel, and the L2 charger would take two slots.  Not sure if it was 100% code compliant, but the install guys (which was done for free by-the-way) were able to combine two other circuits into one slot and then add in the charger circuit.  Haven't blown any fuses / panels yet, so apparently it isn't too bad.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on January 26, 2024, 12:19:26 PM
This is another advantage of a plug in hybrid, you really would only need 110v.  I'm not sure how long it could take to pay back thhe $6-7 K upcharge for it.  They do usually have better acceleration than the hybrid or ICE version of the same vehicle.  Our Hyundai is almost 2 seconds faster to 60 than the pure ICe version, and the plug in variant is even faster.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 27, 2024, 07:32:39 AM
A 2022 Volvo XC60 plug-in is about $10K more than the normal XC60. The 2022 XC60 plug-in is about the same price as a 2022 M-B GLE.

I now have a plan, and it doesn't involve me breaking out my lineman pliars, wire stripper and buying a breaker, wire and outlet.

(https://i.imgur.com/HMq13fj.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on January 27, 2024, 07:46:32 AM
You might find limited availability of these plug ins, or even many hybrids.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on January 27, 2024, 08:06:50 AM
Some advantages and disadvantages of various types are pretty clear.  I opine at the moment the best compromise is with a "mild hybrid" vs plug in or EV or ICE vehicles.  I'd note a lot of supercars are going to be hybrids now for more power including one Corvette model.

If you are a 2 car family and own a home, a small EV MIGHT make sense for you as a second car.



Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 27, 2024, 08:13:59 AM
Some advantages and disadvantages of various types are pretty clear.  I opine at the moment the best compromise is with a "mild hybrid" vs plug in or EV or ICE vehicles.  I'd note a lot of supercars are going to be hybrids now for more power including one Corvette model.

If you are a 2 car family and own a home, a small EV MIGHT make sense for you as a second car.




It does for us.


(https://i.imgur.com/4jX2UaQ.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Gigem on January 27, 2024, 03:52:17 PM
L2 charger should take 30-50 amps ( 230V of course). It depends on the specific model. 

# 10-# 6 AWG wire , depending on length and current. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on February 06, 2024, 09:37:31 PM
General Motors (GM) and Honda have introduced their groundbreaking joint venture, Fuel Cell System Manufacturing (FCSM), investing $85 million in an advanced Michigan facility for large-scale hydrogen fuel cell production.
The 70,000-square-foot facility aims to enhance performance, durability, and cost-effectiveness of hydrogen fuel cells.
The collaboration positions GM and Honda as leaders in sustainable transportation, with Honda planning to implement the new hydrogen system in its CR-V model by 2024.
The hydrogen fuel cell system is expected to cost one-third as much as its predecessor, contributing to broader accessibility of sustainable technology.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 09, 2024, 09:49:06 AM
How Long Should An Electric Car's Battery Last? (insideevs.com) (https://insideevs.com/features/707588/ev-battery-life-how-long/?fbclid=IwAR0n7GFBAncbVdlV3965i3ro4ewRt7WubTPPCqwF17Kh-LLyjK39FZ3gIII)

nsurance site The Zebra surveyed Americans last year, finding that the average length of car ownership is about eight years. The good news is that EVs have long battery warranties, and most can be expected to offer a usable life of between eight and 12 years. Automakers are required to provide at least an eight-year/100,000-mile warranty for electric vehicles, and EVs sold in California are required to have a ten-year/150,000-mile battery warranty.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 09, 2024, 10:36:43 AM
Given that charging away from home costs the same, or more, as gasoline, and batteries last ~10 years (after which the car is basically valueless, or nearly so), and they wear tires quickly (apparently), why should I buy one?

(I've noted before, if you charge at home and it's a second car, it COULD make sense.)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 09, 2024, 11:04:48 AM
Given that charging away from home costs the same, or more, as gasoline, and batteries last ~10 years (after which the car is basically valueless, or nearly so), and they wear tires quickly (apparently), why should I buy one?

(I've noted before, if you charge at home and it's a second car, it COULD make sense.)
You shouldn't. The advantages of EVs are things you can't really take advantage of, so you're basically stuck living with the disadvantages. 

They're not for everyone and every situation. If you can't charge cheaply at home, which is the biggest advantage, there's not much in it. 

I think the battery life thing is still speculation. Musk says that Tesla batteries should last 300-500K miles. Of course you know how much credence I put in anything HE says... But I think with proper thermal management, these batteries may last long enough to not be a concern. 

Tires are an issue due to weight, of course, and possibly due to power if people are driving the EVs hard because of their acceleration. But that's also balanced by reduction in brake usage and seemingly in other maintenance costs, so I don't know how big of an issue it will be.

Judging by the cars some of you folks here drive, I'm pretty sure you're already working with pretty substantial tire budgets :57:
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on February 09, 2024, 11:17:25 AM
You shouldn't. The advantages of EVs are things you can't really take advantage of, so you're basically stuck living with the disadvantages.

They're not for everyone and every situation. If you can't charge cheaply at home, which is the biggest advantage, there's not much in it.

I think the battery life thing is still speculation. Musk says that Tesla batteries should last 300-500K miles. Of course you know how much credence I put in anything HE says... But I think with proper thermal management, these batteries may last long enough to not be a concern.

Tires are an issue due to weight, of course, and possibly due to power if people are driving the EVs hard because of their acceleration. But that's also balanced by reduction in brake usage and seemingly in other maintenance costs, so I don't know how big of an issue it will be.

Judging by the cars some of you folks here drive, I'm pretty sure you're already working with pretty substantial tire budgets :57:

Pickups and Jeeps, and now my daughter's Mustang. We're not living in a world of cheap tires that's for sure.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 09, 2024, 02:26:12 PM
Pickups and Jeeps, and now my daughter's Mustang. We're not living in a world of cheap tires that's for sure.

Same.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on February 09, 2024, 03:10:26 PM
10 year batteries???

a large percentage of vehicles on the road older than 10 years

the Auto industry would love to have most folks scrapping vehicles after 10-12 years
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 10, 2024, 08:09:46 AM
What happens to the spent batteries?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 10, 2024, 08:35:00 AM
"Eventually", they would get reprocessed.  Currently it's expensive and they basically have negative value.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 10, 2024, 08:36:54 AM
An Analysis of Average Age of Cars on the Road (hedgescompany.com) (https://hedgescompany.com/blog/2022/02/how-old-are-cars/)

12.4 years, on average, it's probably longer for light duty trucks.  

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 10, 2024, 08:40:23 AM
Mine is 10.5 years old. Still looks and feels like new.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 10, 2024, 08:42:18 AM
Cars today clearly last a lot longer than in the 1960s.   Rust is one aspect of that.  Expense is another, but overall quality and durability is way better.

I recall spending a lot of time on weekend on routine maintenance.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on February 10, 2024, 08:46:35 AM
if the batteries don't last 15 years then the average is gonna trend down

I suppose a certain percentage of 20 year old vehicles on the road today have had an engine or other significant replacement, but not a very high percentage
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 10, 2024, 08:47:43 AM
I view it as another reason to "wait", one of many.  Maybe we'll have some battery breakthrough or a Mr. Fusion Junior.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on February 10, 2024, 08:48:36 AM
use fusion to make hydrogen
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 10, 2024, 08:52:23 AM
Use hydrogen to make fusion.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 11, 2024, 09:32:32 AM
Daimler releases 'open source' hydrogen fueling standard for trucks (electrek.co) (https://electrek.co/2024/02/09/daimler-releases-open-source-hydrogen-fueling-standard-for-heavy-trucks/?fbclid=IwAR0NUdoOcvyZ4yY_7cLYoQSHAxs4wcm3dukM6R2w7pmGG7Ud7B7gg6HtCZE)

I suspect the first time one of these tanks ruptures and does a Hburg, this all will stop.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on February 12, 2024, 10:20:18 PM
If you own an electric car or want to purchase one soon, you’ll need to know what EV incentives exist that can help you defray costs. Many states offer rebates and tax deductions to make the transition to electric vehicles more attractive, like electricity discounts or bill credits. These bonuses can also apply to plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs), fuel cell electric vehicles, electric motorcycles, and more.

This article will outline the incentives available in each state. Because state incentives continue to evolve, we plan to update as new information becomes available. See our story on federal incentives to find out about those.


https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/electric-vehicle-rebates-by-state/?PSID=CSFB1&utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=social_organic_brand (https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/electric-vehicle-rebates-by-state/?PSID=CSFB1&utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=social_organic_brand)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 13, 2024, 07:44:56 AM
In summary, you might want an EV IFF you own a home (or rent single family) and need a second car for getting around town.  You could easily manage with a cheaper version, a Bolt or Leaf or equivalent and try for the $7500 TC.  You probably only need 150 miles of range to feel confident about it.  You can charge over night after driving 40 miles a day even using 110 outlets.  This works best in California or Hawaii even if electricity prices are high.

I still notice relatively few EVs in France today.  I chatted about it with our driver, he had a Mercedes Diesel.  He told us they were basically forcing an EV on him when he needs another vehicle and it was a big concern for him.

The odd thing, to me, in France, is how many of these 2 stroke scooters run about.  They pollute like crazy.  I did note a sparse few EV scooters.  They sound like 2 stroke engines to me.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 13, 2024, 10:41:45 AM
In summary, you might want an EV IFF you own a home (or rent single family) and need a second car for getting around town.  
With you on the first part, but don't think the second is true. Unless you're routinely driving 200+ miles per day, which is pretty uncommon, I don't think it needs to be a "second car".

Yes, charging will add a little extra tone on road trips, but unless you're taking LOTS of road trips, I see that as a minor annoyance. Likewise if you're going to have 3-4 200+ mile days per year, having to publicly charge again is a minor annoyance.

Considering it's balanced against the benefit of NEVER having to go to the gas station in daily life, for many that's worth it even as the only vehicle they own. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 13, 2024, 10:50:08 AM
Sure, I shouldn't have sounded so limiting.  For some folks, a single EV would work just fine if they don't expect to travel with it.  

The key, to me, is anyone who might have to recharge the thing at a commercial charging site fairly often, as would be the case on a trip.

The other option is to have the EV for local travel and rent a car if you need it for a trip.  Or you could have a plug in hybrid.

We're getting about 33 mpg overall with the Hyundai.  I filled up at Costco yesterday under $3.  We drive about 6,000 miles a year, so <200 gallons at $3, not that large an expense relatively speaking.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on February 13, 2024, 11:05:43 AM
The odd thing, to me, in France, is how many of these 2 stroke scooters run about.  They pollute like crazy.  I did note a sparse few EV scooters.  They sound like 2 stroke engines to me.
Tons more motorcycles on the road in Europe as well, in my experience.  And though not all of them pollute like a 2-stroke scooter, they still produce a ton of the smog-forming gases and carbon monoxide.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 13, 2024, 12:28:24 PM
Sure, I shouldn't have sounded so limiting.  For some folks, a single EV would work just fine if they don't expect to travel with it. 

The key, to me, is anyone who might have to recharge the thing at a commercial charging site fairly often, as would be the case on a trip.

The other option is to have the EV for local travel and rent a car if you need it for a trip.  Or you could have a plug in hybrid.

We're getting about 33 mpg overall with the Hyundai.  I filled up at Costco yesterday under $3.  We drive about 6,000 miles a year, so <200 gallons at $3, not that large an expense relatively speaking.
Yeah, <6K miles a year also makes an EV less of a benefit, since the acquisition costs are typically higher than ICEV. 

But my view is that if 95%+ of your driving can occur w/o ever needing a public charger, I think a lot of people would be willing to make the tradeoff of otherwise never having to go to a gas station. I can say from talking to EV owners, the fact that they almost never even have to think about their car's charge (b/c it's always charged when they leave their house), and almost never need to go out of their way to "fill up", is one of the advantages that they never thought about but absolutely love. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 13, 2024, 12:39:17 PM
Tons more motorcycles on the road in Europe as well, in my experience.  And though not all of them pollute like a 2-stroke scooter, they still produce a ton of the smog-forming gases and carbon monoxide.
I do think most motorcycles in the US are now required to have catalytic converters, and many have O2 sensors, which IMHO helps regarding those types of polluting (i.e. separating out C02) emissions. They may not be on par with a modern car on an emissions per engine displacement level, but they have much smaller displacement so there's at least some offset there. It wouldn't surprise me if 1 person on a 600cc motorcycle vs 1 person in a 2.5L passenger car might now have lower total emissions. 

And here in CA, you don't spend as much time idling in traffic on a bike because we allow lane-splitting. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 13, 2024, 12:55:53 PM
Maybe the main key is being able to plug in at home.  (Price is another of course.)

For most of us outside CA, I don't think it makes sense broadly speaking.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 13, 2024, 01:13:12 PM
Maybe the main key is being able to plug in at home.  (Price is another of course.)

For most of us outside CA, I don't think it makes sense broadly speaking.
Yes, I think that plugging in at home is really the first go/no-go checkpoint. 

Which isn't to say that if you can plug in at home, an EV is for you. But that if you CAN'T plug in at home, it probably is NOT for you. Once you satisfy the "plug in at home" checkpoint then you can assess price, driving habits, unique needs, etc to see if it makes sense. As mentioned if you're someone like @utee94 (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=15) and you need to tow decent distances frequently, something like an F-150 Lightning would still probably be excluded based on driving habits / unique needs.

Other aspects (such as whether you've installed solar and/or home battery storage) can also dramatically tip the scales, because it can make driving effectively "free" as it relates to marginal cost, i.e. if you don't count the amortization of the solar/backup installation. 

BTW I'm not sure CA is some slam dunk... While it makes sense on the surface because gas is really expensive here relative to the rest of the US, so is electricity. I still think EV is relatively cheaper than ICEV, but it's probably not by as much as you'd think if you only look at gas prices. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on February 13, 2024, 04:26:13 PM
This conversation made me go randomly search up F150 Lightning towing data, and I found this interesting Youtube segment where they compare an F150 lightning to a standard F150 turbo hybrid.  Most of it is expected and aligns to our conversations here, but they did manage to get more towing distance out of the Lightning than I expected.  Seems like a full charge would have gotten them around 150-160 miles, as it is they only went down to 20% and got around 130 miles I think.  Fast-charging back to 80% took 45 mins, and then their range would have been something like another 120 miles.  Going all the way to 100% took a total of 2hrs 10 mins, that last 20% charges much more slowly as we already know.

So if you just went from 80% to 20% you'd be stopping about every 1.5-2 hours, and recharging for around 45 mins to an hour each time.  That's not ideal but it is better than I expected.  This is outside of Chicago so it's flat, obviously hills and mountains would diminish the range more quickly.

One other thing they brought up that I hadn't really thought about, is that gassing up your ICEV whilst towing is a very straightforward thing.  You can easily plan a route that has large, convenient gas stations with easy entrance/egress capability with your trailer attached.  But electric chargers are not typically placed in easy pull-through locations.  They had to disconnect their trailer in order to move the F150 Lightning to the charging bay.  It's not the end of the world, I can disconnect and reconnect in under 10 mins per, but it's another inconvenience when comparing ICEV to EV for towing purposes.  Anyway, whole video is here, it's somewhat interesting (to people like me, anyway).

Oh another thing I saw is that they now have max towing capacity on the turbo hybrid, so it's finally coming into range for my purposes.  The F150 full EV on the other hand, maxes out a couple thousand pounds less, so even if the distance limitations weren't prohibitive, the towing capacity still is.

https://www.cars.com/articles/ford-f-150-lightning-vs-f-150-hybrid-what-we-learned-towing-and-hauling-with-an-electric-truck-455992/ (https://www.cars.com/articles/ford-f-150-lightning-vs-f-150-hybrid-what-we-learned-towing-and-hauling-with-an-electric-truck-455992/)



Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 18, 2024, 07:49:25 AM
Biden administration may slow early stage of shift to electric cars | The Spokesman-Review (https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2024/feb/17/biden-administration-may-slow-early-stage-of-shift/)

Last spring, the Environmental Protection Agency proposed the toughest limits on tailpipe emissions. The rules would be so strict, the only way carmakers could comply would be to sell a tremendous number of zero-emissions vehicles in a relatively short time frame.
The EPA designed the proposed regulations so that 67% of sales of new cars and light-duty trucks would be all-electric by 2032, up from 7.6% in 2023, a radical remaking of the American automobile market.
That remains the goal. But as they finalize the regulations, administration officials are tweaking the plan to slow the pace at which auto manufacturers would need to comply, so that electric vehicle sales would increase more gradually through 2030 but then would have to sharply rise.
The change in pacing is in response to automakers that say more time is needed to build a national network of charging stations and to bring down the cost of electric vehicles, and to labor unions that want more time to try to unionize new electric car plants that are opening around the country, particularly in the South. But delaying the most stringent requirements of the rule could come at a cost to the climate, after the hottest year in recorded history.


Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 18, 2024, 07:55:38 AM
We apparently are seeing the classic "early adopter" syndrome that happens with every innovation that the public can accept, or not.  I recall when CDs first hit the market, CD players were very pricey, I wanted one, badly.  The Sony was $1,000 then, just a basic CD player, and CDs were in the $20 range, these prices would be about double adjusted for inflation.

The Sony finally went on sale for $600 and I bought one.  It was most cool, no more scratches on vinyl to worry about.  It took some time, and steep price drops, for more folks to "adopt" one.  Now of course they are out of style.

With EVs, as discussed, there are more issues than just initial entry price, though that's a large one.  But I sense most folks who really wanted an EV bought one anyway, and the rest of "us" are standing by waiting.  The practicality of an EV is "not there yet" for many of us regular folk.

So, Tesla got out of the gate with the early adopters and then the majors stepped in just at the time when demand was sagging below projections, still growing, but not as fast as their straight lines suggested (duh).

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 18, 2024, 07:58:01 AM
While buyers of new electric vehicles are eligible for up to $7,500 in federal tax credits, only 18 models are currently eligible for that full credit, down from about two dozen last year. One of those eligible models, the Ford F-150 Lightning, an all-electric pickup truck that once had a waiting list of 200,000, last year saw sales of 24,000, far short of the 150,000 sales projected by Ford.
And while construction of EV chargers is expanding, nearly doubling from about 87,000 in 2019 to more than 172,000 last year, analysts project that the nation will need more than 2 million chargers by 2030 to support the growth in electric vehicles envisioned by the proposed rules.
All that worries auto companies, which have invested about $146 billion over the past three years in researching and developing electric vehicles, according to the Center for Automotive Research, a nonprofit organization in Ann Arbor, Michigan. Auto companies would face billions of dollars per year in fines if the emissions associated with their auto sales exceed the limits set by the new regulations.
The Alliance for Automotive Innovation, which represents 42 car companies that produce about 97% of the new vehicles sold in the United States, asked the administration for the same slowdown sought by the UAW.
“Pace matters,” John Bozzella, president of the alliance, said in an interview. “Give the market and supply chains a chance to catch up, maintain a customer’s ability to choose, let more public charging come online.”
Analysts say the current lag in electric vehicle sales is to be expected, as the market for early adopters – typically wealthier, coastal residents who have bought an EV as a second car – is saturated.


Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on February 18, 2024, 08:21:01 AM

The EPA designed the proposed regulations so that 67% of sales of new cars and light-duty trucks would be all-electric by 2032, up from 7.6% in 2023, a radical remaking of the American automobile market.
That remains the goal. But as they finalize the regulations, administration officials are tweaking the plan to slow the pace at which auto manufacturers would need to comply, so that electric vehicle sales would increase more gradually through 2030 but then would have to sharply rise.
gee whiz
set unrealistic goals
then "as you finalize" the regulations, back way off 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 18, 2024, 08:44:26 AM
Might be an election soon also.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on February 18, 2024, 08:47:43 AM
automakers

possibly a stronger lobby than the egg producers
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 21, 2024, 11:05:19 AM
Pros and Cons of Electric Cars: Everything You Need to Know (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a41001087/pros-and-cons-electric-cars/?utm_campaign=trueanthemFBCD&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR0yRs9M2_Cv3gnFLr5b__fHO83RSNSkKYrnPNOgm00OtdWeRLc4D7uOqRw)

Oddly, this doesn't mention the relaive high cost of charging away from home as compared with just using gasoline.  To me, that is a MAJOR consideration.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 21, 2024, 11:20:46 AM
Pros and Cons of Electric Cars: Everything You Need to Know (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a41001087/pros-and-cons-electric-cars/?utm_campaign=trueanthemFBCD&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR0yRs9M2_Cv3gnFLr5b__fHO83RSNSkKYrnPNOgm00OtdWeRLc4D7uOqRw)

Oddly, this doesn't mention the relaive high cost of charging away from home as compared with just using gasoline.  To me, that is a MAJOR consideration.
Yeah, the article was heavier on driving/lifestyle characteristics and quite lean on economics. It did touch on a home charger being the most cost-effective method, but that was one line in the article. 

Plus I don't think they were going for an "if you can't charge at home, don't even think about it!" tone in this article lol...
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 21, 2024, 11:35:07 AM
I would have said "Note that charging away from home can be as expensive as buying gasoline.".

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on February 21, 2024, 10:00:17 PM
and take a little longer
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 22, 2024, 08:30:15 AM
They mention that aspect of recharging times, but not the expense.  A LOT of folks think it's cheaper to drive an EV, always, and it isn't, not even close.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 28, 2024, 09:18:20 AM
Just so we can discuss the topic under this headline.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 28, 2024, 09:52:57 AM
This 1.2 Million-Mile Tesla Model S Is On Its 14th Motor, Fourth Battery Pack (insideevs.com) (https://insideevs.com/news/699413/highest-mileage-tesla-model-s-3-batteries-14-motors/?fbclid=IwAR3N4wJK-eO-lIfWiHgU1taZIZli58gV0fmJ_2u6QB5yxzlPhrIo94oCQvk)

Some early Tesla Model S EVs were known to have issues with their rear motors. This particular Tesla suffered from this. The rear motor was replaced thirteen times, so if we include the original that it came with, that's fourteen motors over the course of 1.2 million miles.
Most of the replacement motors were actually refurbished units and the problem there is that Tesla didn't know the real issue so it didn't know how to properly fix the motors. Some of these replacement motors failed very quickly. Some were covered under warranty, while others were not.
In regards to the vehicle's battery pack, it fared better than the motor. However, this Model S is currently on its fourth battery pack. Four batteries at 1.2 million miles mean that the average pack lasted some 300,000 and counting, which is actually a strong showing in our opinion.


Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Temp430 on February 28, 2024, 11:43:07 AM
Just bought a 2024 4Runner Limited.   Gets 12-17 mpg.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 28, 2024, 12:44:28 PM
Gas prices today are pretty much the same as they've always been adjusted for inflation.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 28, 2024, 02:19:15 PM
Proof That EV Tires Can Save You Hundreds Of Dollars (insideevs.com) (https://insideevs.com/features/709902/ev-tires-save-money-erange/?fbclid=IwAR1rl586Vm4xbGYWssKDYVFNsI_uLrkBcQu1yzElj9cV75rt04OpgwFMkoo)

For the sake of argument, let’s say you’re the owner of a Genesis G70 Electrified who lives in southern California. Your car has an EPA-rated range of 236 miles and the cost of electricity to your home is 28.8 cents per kilowatt hour (this was the average cost of electricity (https://www.bls.gov/regions/west/news-release/averageenergyprices_losangeles.htm#:~:text=Los Angeles area households paid,per therm spent last year.) in Los Angeles for December 2023).


Figuring out how much energy your EV uses per mile is pretty easy. The EPA states the G70 Electrified uses 37 kilowatt hours of electricity for every 100 miles driven, so simple division tells us it uses .37 kWh of electricity per mile. If your electricity costs 28.8 cents per kWh, then it costs you just 10.656 cents to drive one mile in your G70 Electrified.

Now let’s multiply that over 50,000 miles, which is within the treadwear lifespan of a set of tires. If energy costs you 10.656 cents per mile, driving your Genesis 50,000 miles on stock tires would cost you $5,328 in electricity. This is a thought experiment so we’re not taking into account the fluctuating price of electricity over time, including the time of day you’re charging, but it gives us a general idea of cost we can use to compare with a set of EV-specific tires.


The rate for charging at home is quite different from the rate at a commercial charging station.  And of course, around here regular is about $3 per gallon.  Presuming say 33 mpg, which is doable, you're spending less than 10 cents per mile on gasoline.
[img width=649 height=365.047 alt=Genesis Electrified GV70 fast charging]https://cdn.motor1.com/images/static/16x9-tr.png[/img][/size][/color]


Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 28, 2024, 02:44:53 PM
The rate for charging at home is quite different from the rate at a commercial charging station.  And of course, around here regular is about $3 per gallon.  Presuming say 33 mpg, which is doable, you're spending less than 10 cents per mile on gasoline.
Of course you're comparing an article describing someone based in SoCal with your gas prices. And they stated SoCal energy prices are 28.2 cents/kWh.

A quick google search (http://quick google search) suggests Atlanta electricity is going for 15 cents/kWh. Which would mean that the same GV70 Electrified would be driven for about 5.668 cents per mile in Atlanta vs SoCal. 

While your hypothetical 33 mpg gas car in SoCal, where gas around me is currently around $4.50/gal, would be roughly 15 cents per mile. 

And that's not even getting into the fact that the GV70 Electrified is a luxury SUV, and you're not going to find many gas-powered luxury SUVs that average 33 mpg. The equivalent GV70 combustion w/ 300hp engine gets 22/28, whereas the 375hp engine is 18/24. And the 375hp engine is a full 1.6 seconds slower 0-60 time than the electric. So assume you're getting a combined 20 mpg, that GV70 3.5T in SoCal with $4.50/gal gas would be north of 25 cents per mile. 

If you're trying to compare costs, you can't compare a luxury SUV in one of the most expensive places in the nation for electricity OR gas to a hypothetical 33 mpg vehicle of an entirely different vehicle class in one a state with below the national average gas price. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on February 28, 2024, 02:53:05 PM
Good points, all of them.  What about a GV70 equivalent as a mild hybrid?  A Santa Fe hybrid is listed at 36 mpg city, and while it's not as luxurious, it is probably the same size.  



Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on February 29, 2024, 09:35:50 PM
This 1.2 Million-Mile Tesla Model S Is On Its 14th Motor, Fourth Battery Pack (insideevs.com) (https://insideevs.com/news/699413/highest-mileage-tesla-model-s-3-batteries-14-motors/?fbclid=IwAR3N4wJK-eO-lIfWiHgU1taZIZli58gV0fmJ_2u6QB5yxzlPhrIo94oCQvk)

this Model S is currently on its fourth battery pack. Four batteries at 1.2 million miles mean that the average pack lasted some 300,000 and counting, which is actually a strong showing in our opinion.



what's the average age of the 4 batteries?

4 years?  is the Model S a 2008 model?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on February 29, 2024, 09:38:32 PM
Of course you're comparing an article describing someone based in SoCal with your gas prices. And they stated SoCal energy prices are 28.2 cents/kWh.

everyone has an agenda
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 01, 2024, 09:53:28 AM
what's the average age of the 4 batteries?

4 years?  is the Model S a 2008 model?
Article states it's a 2014 model, and the owner has driven an average of 131,000 miles per year (roughly 10x a "typical" driver). So I think you can throw "age" of batteries out the window, because age is just a proxy for mileage in most cases--but clearly not this one. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 01, 2024, 10:04:01 AM
From what I can glean, EV batteries likely need replacement around 10-12 years of normal driving (120,000-150,000 miles).  And they are expensive, often more than the value of the car at that age.  They do have an 8 year 100,000 mile warranty (usually) but the fine print on that could be worth reading.

That's better than a typical lead acid battery in cars, but they are of course a lot cheaper.  The other factor is "erosion" in range over time, maybe 3-5% per year.  Some of this might improve with simple software advancements.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on March 01, 2024, 10:08:20 AM
From what I can glean, EV batteries likely need replacement around 10-12 years of normal driving (120,000-150,000 miles).  And they are expensive, often more than the value of the car at that age.  They do have an 8 year 100,000 mile warranty (usually) but the fine print on that could be worth reading.

That's better than a typical lead acid battery in cars, but they are of course a lot cheaper.  The other factor is "erosion" in range over time, maybe 3-5% per year.  Some of this might improve with simple software advancements.

I don't know.  The laws of physics are proving pretty harsh for battery manufacturers.  There's only so much that software optimization can accomplish when facing off against the fundamental nature of materials.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 01, 2024, 10:11:34 AM
I'm thinking very modest increments as mfgers learn better how to recharge these things.  It could be a factor.  Maybe folks look into how batteries were treated over their lifetime and find a way to make them last a month longer.

It's also interesting I think to use the old batteries as stationary storage batteries.  OK, so they lost over half their capacity, fine, they still have a third or more available.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 01, 2024, 10:20:42 AM
I don't know.  The laws of physics are proving pretty harsh for battery manufacturers.  There's only so much that software optimization can accomplish when facing off against the fundamental nature of materials.
My understanding is that the "software advancements" are largely low-hanging fruit that Tesla (and Nissan) learned the hard way largely regarding things like thermal management during charging / etc. I know Tesla's software allows you to plan out Supercharger visits on a route, and as you're approaching the charger will be readying the battery for optimal charging--I don't know exactly what they do, but I'm sure it's easily google-able... 

I would also suspect that there are things you can do re: charging rates. I.e. if I set an alarm for the morning on my cellphone, it now reduces the charging rate to hit 100% just before the time of the alarm. I would think that Tesla's charging software might be sophisticated enough that if you get home at 5 PM and you need 100 miles of charge to get back to 80% battery, it might not just charge the batteries as fast as possible (which would only take a few hours), but deliberately slow the charging rate so you get those 100 miles by the next morning to increase battery life. 

Both of those would be software optimizations that would improve battery life. And IMHO they should be "table stakes" in the EV industry at this point, but I don't necessarily know if they are--the first one particularly for other manufacturers that don't have a captive charging network like Tesla. 

And part of it is learning. If you regularly deplete to near-zero and then charge to 100% (as one would do with a fuel tank in an ICEV), you'll reduce battery life. If you regularly don't let it drop below 20% and only charge to 80%, it increases battery life. 

Either way, the Tesla from the article was averaging 300,000 miles per battery pack, which for a typical driver would be >20 years of driving. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 01, 2024, 10:26:53 AM
Charging 20% to 80% would help, but then what is the advantage of ever going to 100%?  If the EV has 300 miles of range, now it's only 240.  Maybe before a road trip you max it out?  Could work.

I'm still hung up on the price of charging it at a commercial site.  They must run 60 cents per kWhr or so in California.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on March 01, 2024, 10:55:31 AM
My understanding is that the "software advancements" are largely low-hanging fruit that Tesla (and Nissan) learned the hard way largely regarding things like thermal management during charging / etc. I know Tesla's software allows you to plan out Supercharger visits on a route, and as you're approaching the charger will be readying the battery for optimal charging--I don't know exactly what they do, but I'm sure it's easily google-able...

I would also suspect that there are things you can do re: charging rates. I.e. if I set an alarm for the morning on my cellphone, it now reduces the charging rate to hit 100% just before the time of the alarm. I would think that Tesla's charging software might be sophisticated enough that if you get home at 5 PM and you need 100 miles of charge to get back to 80% battery, it might not just charge the batteries as fast as possible (which would only take a few hours), but deliberately slow the charging rate so you get those 100 miles by the next morning to increase battery life.

Both of those would be software optimizations that would improve battery life. And IMHO they should be "table stakes" in the EV industry at this point, but I don't necessarily know if they are--the first one particularly for other manufacturers that don't have a captive charging network like Tesla.

And part of it is learning. If you regularly deplete to near-zero and then charge to 100% (as one would do with a fuel tank in an ICEV), you'll reduce battery life. If you regularly don't let it drop below 20% and only charge to 80%, it increases battery life.

Either way, the Tesla from the article was averaging 300,000 miles per battery pack, which for a typical driver would be >20 years of driving.

Well yeah, I'm assuming we're already including these types of known optimizations in our current estimates of battery life.  None of this is new stuff, much of it applied to recharge on other versions of rechargeable batteries long before EVs were part of the discussion.

What I'm saying is, I believe we're already near the limits of what software optimization can achieve.  We're likely over halfway there, which means any further improvements are only going to be incremental and not likely to change the calculations all that much.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 01, 2024, 10:57:08 AM
Charging 20% to 80% would help, but then what is the advantage of ever going to 100%?  If the EV has 300 miles of range, now it's only 240.  Maybe before a road trip you max it out?  Could work.

I'm still hung up on the price of charging it at a commercial site.  They must run 60 cents per kWhr or so in California.
Yeah, most people only charge to 100% before a road trip or before a day they know they might approach a 240+ number.

Heck, the way EV charging works, even on a road trip you only take it to 80% because the charge rate slows down significantly above that. I think you can go something like 20-80% in 20-30 minutes on a Supercharger, but the additional 20% to hit 100% would take almost another half hour on top of it. 

I can't find solid numbers on public charger rates in CA. I suspect b/c there's a bunch of different locations, different owners/operators (non-Tesla), on top of different charge capabilities. Via Quora (https://www.quora.com/How-much-does-it-cost-to-use-a-public-electric-vehicle-EV-charging-station-in-California/answer/Mark-Wilson-3114), I see numbers for DC fast chargers in the realm of 0.30-0.60 $/kWh, but numbers for slower Level 2 chargers in the realm of 0.10-0.35 $/kWh (which seems low quite frankly). 

In many ways it depends what you need. If you REQUIRE fast charging, it looks like it's going to cost. But we have L2 chargers in the parking structure at my office, and if you're getting to the office and just need a couple hours of slower charging while you work, it sounds much more reasonable. But I have a lot of trouble believing the lower ends of either of those rates are anything other than unicorns...
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on March 01, 2024, 11:03:36 AM
Yeah, most people only charge to 100% before a road trip or before a day they know they might approach a 240+ number.

Heck, the way EV charging works, even on a road trip you only take it to 80% because the charge rate slows down significantly above that. I think you can go something like 20-80% in 20-30 minutes on a Supercharger, but the additional 20% to hit 100% would take almost another half hour on top of it.

I can't find solid numbers on public charger rates in CA. I suspect b/c there's a bunch of different locations, different owners/operators (non-Tesla), on top of different charge capabilities. Via Quora (https://www.quora.com/How-much-does-it-cost-to-use-a-public-electric-vehicle-EV-charging-station-in-California/answer/Mark-Wilson-3114), I see numbers for DC fast chargers in the realm of 0.30-0.60 $/kWh, but numbers for slower Level 2 chargers in the realm of 0.10-0.35 $/kWh (which seems low quite frankly).

In many ways it depends what you need. If you REQUIRE fast charging, it looks like it's going to cost. But we have L2 chargers in the parking structure at my office, and if you're getting to the office and just need a couple hours of slower charging while you work, it sounds much more reasonable. But I have a lot of trouble believing the lower ends of either of those rates are anything other than unicorns...

Right, so the ideal use cases remain the same.  Very good for urban drivers/suburban commuters or anyone else averaging under 100 miles per day and always returning to the same fixed point.

Less ideal for roadtrippers.

Impractical for roadtrippers who are towing heavy objects (and potentially always will be).

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 01, 2024, 11:10:05 AM
Maybe ~30 cents is a "typical" rate at a commercial unit?  The figure used below is highly optimistic.  If we use the Tesla figure and $0.30, the cost would be $7.20 per hundred miles, using a commercial charger at that probably lowish rate.  That's obviously better than my 33 mpg Hyundai at $3/gallon ($9, which is not markedly worse).

Charging at home in CA at 28 cents is roughly the same but gasoline is probably 50% more expensive there as well.  I keep coming up with various figures that don't show a marked lower cost of operation for an EV, unless we charge at home here at 15 cents or so.  

If I could charge at home at 15 cents, 100 miles in a Tesla would be $3.60 which starts to be decent.  I keep going back to this because I see all sorts of calculations like the one below showing a marked advantage but they nearly all speak to charging at home (which might be most of the charging).

What is kWh per 100 Miles? (jdpower.com) (https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/what-is-kwh-per-100-miles)

Once a kWh/100 miles rating is known, a shopper can quickly calculate the cost to operate the vehicle by multiplying this figure by the price of electricity per kWh. 
For example, a 2021 Tesla Model 3 (https://www.jdpower.com/cars/2021/tesla-motors/model-3) with a standard-range battery has a rating of 24 kWh/100 miles, while a Ford Mustang Mach-E with a standard-range battery has a rating of 34 kWh/100 miles. 

If the national average price of residential electricity costs 13.29 cents per kWh*, then the cost of charging the Tesla (https://www.jdpower.com/cars/tesla-motors) would be 24 kWh times 13.29 cents, which equals $3.19. The Ford (https://www.jdpower.com/cars/ford), at 34 kWh, costs $4.52. That means driving the Model 3 a distance of 100 miles costs $1.33 less than driving a Mustang Mach-E the same distance. 

Furthermore, in this scenario, the annual cost of electricity to drive a Tesla Model 3 for 12,000 miles would be a thrifty $382.80 ($3.19 times 12,000 divided by 100). The Ford Mustang Mach-E (https://www.jdpower.com/cars/expert-reviews/2021-ford-mustang-mach-e-test-drive?make=ford&model=mustang-mach-e) would run you $542.40 for the year. That's an annual cost difference of $159.60.
However, keep in mind that the cost of electricity can vary significantly based on the time of day and where you are charging a vehicle.


Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 01, 2024, 11:11:25 AM
Well yeah, I'm assuming we're already including these types of known optimizations in our current estimates of battery life.
I'm assuming that "some" people's estimates of battery life are going to be as brutally low as humanly possible to fit an agenda, and that those people will not assume anything they don't have to. 

And of course you have the people on the other side who will make the most rosy assumptions they possibly can to make EVs seem like a panacea that will solve everything. Including Musk who says 300-500K, but you all know how much I believe anything that man says. 

IMHO we won't "know" until we have a lot more EVs on the road for a lot longer time. Tesla's got the big lead regarding vehicles on the road as well as having vehicles available for longer than most other manufacturers. I suspect we'll have a lot more real world understanding based on the time I'm next in the vehicle market. That's no sooner than 2027 unless my Flex has an issue too expensive to repair or an event (crash/theft/etc) which requires replacement. 

Even though I never plan to own a Tesla, if I were buying an EV today that would be the one I'd be most comfortable with, because they're farthest along the learning curve. By 2027 I hope that others are far enough that I have comfort with them, or else my next car will definitely be another ICEV. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 01, 2024, 11:15:19 AM
Right, so the ideal use cases remain the same.  Very good for urban drivers/suburban commuters or anyone else averaging under 100 miles per day and always returning to the same fixed point.

Less ideal for roadtrippers.

Impractical for roadtrippers who are towing heavy objects (and potentially always will be).
With today's capabilities, that's exactly right. 

I'm an occasional roadtripper, but not often enough that it would dissuade me from an EV if it fit everything else I needed it to do. I'm getting older and I'm more likely to appreciate a 20-30 minute stop every 3.5-4 hours these days on the road. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 01, 2024, 11:20:49 AM
If I lived in CA and had a home, I'd look into a plug in hybrid, especially if my usual trips were inside ~30 miles.  The Toyota Prius, the new model, gets good reviews.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on March 01, 2024, 11:27:17 AM
If I lived in CA and had a home, I'd look into a plug in hybrid, especially if my usual trips were inside ~30 miles.  The Toyota Prius, the new model, gets good reviews.
Ford now makes a hyrbid F150 with max towing capacity.  If I still need a truck with heavy towing capability when I'm back in the market for another vehicle, I'll look into that.  I've had my current truck since 2018 so realistically won't be looking again until 2030, I tend to keep my vehicles for at least 12 years.  

Of course it's also possible or even likely, that once the kids are out of high school in 5 years, I'll be looking to downsize the RV trailer or even make the move to a diesel pusher motorhome.  In which case I'd have no need of the pickup and might look at a passenger car again, rather than a truck or SUV, for the first time since 1994.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 01, 2024, 11:46:32 AM
I wonder how easy it is to tow a small EV behind a motorhome, what the issues might be.  You probably can charge it by towing it, but that has other issues.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 01, 2024, 11:52:36 AM
I know my driving behavior today would easily be handled by a BEV. And that once the kids start moving out of the house, it'll be even more so.

But that's also the problem. Unless I start driving a lot more, the payback period in fuel/energy savings of the higher BEV acquisition cost will be even longer. And it's more likely that the kids being out of the house will lead to LESS driving. In fact, starting this summer when my oldest gets his license, it will likely take a LOT of pressure off me for transferring the kids to/from their mom and driving them to / picking them up from school. At least for two years until he graduates, but then my daughter will be getting closer to driving as well. It'll probably be another 2 years and then I'll have little to no "kid transportation" responsibilities. 

The one who would probably benefit the most would be my wife. But she doesn't want an EV, because Gavin Newsom told her everyone's supposed to have one and she hates being told what to do :57:
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on March 01, 2024, 11:59:13 AM
I wonder how easy it is to tow a small EV behind a motorhome, what the issues might be.  You probably can charge it by towing it, but that has other issues.
Small cars of any kind are commonly and easily used as "toads" behind a moho.  You could likely use the towing to generate electricity to charge the battery. You would of course want software and hardware failsafes to prevent over-charging.

People tend to tow whatever kind of vehicle is most useful at their final destinations.  For older retired folks, who are parking in urban or suburban RV parks, it's generally a small car or SUV to get around town.

For the adventurous back-country camping types, it's usually a Jeep or some other suitable offroad vehicle, to get them further into the back-country after they've established the motorhome as their base camp.  So your "toad" vehicle is entirely dependent on your lifestyle or reason for camping in the motorhome.

But there's no reason a small or even medium-sized EV wouldn't work in many situations.  Large motorhomes tend to have a large towing capacity.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 01, 2024, 12:05:10 PM
I heard stories about moho towing a small car and burning out the transmission.  I guess an EV can be put in "neutral" somehow.  Or not.

What Cars Can Be Flat-Towed? | Edmunds (https://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/what-cars-can-be-flat-towed-behind-an-rv.html#:~:text=EVs can't be flat-towed)



EVs can't be flat-towed either

With electric vehicles gaining in popularity, you might be wondering if you can flat-tow them. It might seem like because most don't have traditional transmissions and can be put into neutral they can be flat-towed, but this isn't true. The electric motors will always be connected to the wheels, and as you tow your electric vehicle behind your RV, the wheels will spin the motors. This may cause damage to the electric motors and, as a result, flat towing an EV isn't advisable.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on March 01, 2024, 12:10:52 PM
I heard stories about moho towing a small car and burning out the transmission.  I guess an EV can be put in "neutral" somehow.  Or not.

What Cars Can Be Flat-Towed? | Edmunds (https://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/what-cars-can-be-flat-towed-behind-an-rv.html#:~:text=EVs can't be flat-towed)



EVs can't be flat-towed either

With electric vehicles gaining in popularity, you might be wondering if you can flat-tow them. It might seem like because most don't have traditional transmissions and can be put into neutral they can be flat-towed, but this isn't true. The electric motors will always be connected to the wheels, and as you tow your electric vehicle behind your RV, the wheels will spin the motors. This may cause damage to the electric motors and, as a result, flat towing an EV isn't advisable.



Yes, you can only tow a vehicle that can be put completely into neutral.  I've seen plenty of pictures of toad vehicles that were destroyed because their owner failed to do so.

As far as EVs currently, I assume they just haven't decided the use case of flat towing behind a moho is important enough to address.

If they ever did so, then there's no reason you wouldn't be able to decouple the wheels from the motors, or even design the wheels to generate electricity through the motors while being towed.  It would take additional development and additional components, which I suppose could force the price high enough to make it an undesirable solution financially, but technologically there's no reason it couldn't be addressed.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 01, 2024, 12:31:56 PM
The lack of manual transmission vehicles, plus an increase in the number of vehicles with continuously variable transmissions (CVTs) and front-wheel-drive and full- and part-time four-wheel-drive systems, have thinned the list to its lowest point in years. Vehicles with a CVT cannot be towed with all four wheels on the ground because it would damage the transmission.

Toyota, for instance, makes several vehicles that would seem ideal for flat towing. For hearty off-road adventurers, there are the 4Runner and the FJ Cruiser, the latter still popular although it's no longer in production. And while they're fine on their own on rough terrain, the company's four-wheel-drive trucks don't make the grade when it comes to flat towing. In fact, no automatic transmission vehicle from Toyota, Lexus or the discontinued Scion brand is suitable for dinghy towing.

It all has to do with transmission lubrication, according to Toyota. Some Toyota vehicles require continuous operation of a pump inside the transmission to keep the moving parts lubricated, and those cars can't be towed four-down. With automatic transmissions and pump-dependent manuals, the output shaft isn't being lubricated unless the vehicle's engine is running, and a car can suffer severe transmission damage if it is towed with the driven wheels rolling along the highway, turning the driveshaft or, in the case of front-wheel-drive cars, the half shafts.


Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 01, 2024, 12:34:22 PM
I seem my Hyundai Tuscon is not supposed to be flat towed.  I suspect most AWD vehicles would have issues.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on March 01, 2024, 01:21:52 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mM0noe57k7U
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 01, 2024, 03:06:46 PM
That looks complicated to me, unduly so, but probably not many tow an F-150.  I see folks towing CR Vs fairly often and think it might be ruining their AWD.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 04, 2024, 06:38:15 AM
How Much Does It Cost to Charge an Electric Car? - Road & Track (roadandtrack.com) (https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a44899834/costs-to-charge-electric-vehicle/?utm_campaign=trueanthemR%26T&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR2eoaROQstn31EAV1sfsBjmh8oBu3fyGsL6Ga7KuiKKSV-FhqLOa4Fbe8M)

A good bit of detail.

Similar to L2 chargers, public fast-charging networks tend to have different pricing structures. The high infrastructure cost makes free fast-charging largely a thing of the past unless in an ad-supported model, but between monthly memberships, billing-per-minute, and ToU rates, many models are being tested. In the NYC metro area at the time of writing, you might see the following approximate pricing for the major players:

BP Pulse: $0.49/kWh + $3/hr or $0.35/kWh
Electrify America: $0.48/kWh or $0.36/kWh + $4 monthly membership
EVgo: $0.23–$0.42/kWh or $0.99/session + $0.43/kWh overnight, $0.56/kWh off-peak, $0.69/kWh on-peak
EvolveNY: $0.35/kWh
Revel: $0.49/kWh
Tesla: $0.28–$0.36/kWh

You need around 30 kWhrs to go 100 miles, so that compares with about 3 gallons for a reasonably efficient ICE.  If you have a plug in, charging at home is a must most of the time to save money.

The reality is that, as of right now, few people rely exclusively on public DCFC chargers. Most people do the majority of their charging at home (https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy21osti/78540.pdf), and those who do not tend to find L2 chargers elsewhere—either at work, a monthly parking garage, or increasingly at the curbside. This means that for many, the true average cost of charging an EV is closer to the $0.15/kWh that homeowners pay (per 2022 national-average pricing) than it is to the $0.50/kWh common at public fast-chargers.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on March 04, 2024, 10:43:31 AM
That looks complicated to me, unduly so, but probably not many tow an F-150.  I see folks towing CR Vs fairly often and think it might be ruining their AWD.



It takes a minute or so, not sure how "unduly complicated" that is, to completely disengage all wheels from the transmission. 

As you're pointing out right now, many vehicles can't be flat-towed at all, so having the ability to do so for the best-selling vehicle in the USA seems like a pretty big deal to me.

The info I looked up on the interwebz seems to indicate that the Honda CRV 2014 and older models can be flat-towed but that models 2015 and newer can not be.

I don't really see a lot of Hondas being used as "toads" down here in Texico.  Probably >50% of dinghy-towed vehicles I see, are Jeep Wranglers.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 04, 2024, 10:47:23 AM
I likely notice the CRVs because I was in the market for one for a while (and owned one way back, it was a manual).  

"Unduly complicated" to me is about anything requiring a sequence of more than 3 steps.  I'm lazy.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 04, 2024, 11:21:59 AM
I'm lazy.
Then you'd probably not like RV life anyway. :57:
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on March 04, 2024, 11:27:06 AM
As you're pointing out right now, many vehicles can't be flat-towed at all, so having the ability to do so for the best-selling vehicle in the USA seems like a pretty big deal to me.
what percentage of sales might they lose to make it a pretty big deal?
I'd guess less than 1% of buyers of F150's ever tow them
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on March 04, 2024, 12:39:21 PM
what percentage of sales might they lose to make it a pretty big deal?
I'd guess less than 1% of buyers of F150's ever tow them

No idea.

It's not uncommon though, to see an F150 towed behind a motorhome, around here.  If Jeep Wranglers are maybe 55% of what I see, F150s are maybe 10%? 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on March 04, 2024, 01:15:58 PM
In 2023, more than 700,000 customers chose a new Ford F-Series truck

I suppose 7,000 of those sold in 23 could be towed once in a while - mostly in Texas
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on March 04, 2024, 01:42:46 PM
In 2023, more than 700,000 customers chose a new Ford F-Series truck

I suppose 7,000 of those sold in 23 could be towed once in a while - mostly in Texas
I'm not trying to say 10% of F150s are towed behind motorhomes.  I'm saying I'd guess about 10% of the vehicles I see towed behind motorhomes, are F150s.

Regardless it's an interesting option to have for a truck.  The vast majority of people that own 4x4 vehicles don't ever use that capability, but it's clearly an option they value having, otherwise they'd just buy the 2WD versions of those vehicles.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 04, 2024, 02:19:55 PM
Many of the light trucks I see have no appearance of ever being used as a truck, much less a 4x4..  I suspect most could get by just fine with a smaller SUV or station wagon or minivan.

Trucks of course are manly.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 04, 2024, 02:36:48 PM
Many of the light trucks I see have no appearance of ever being used as a truck, much less a 4x4..  I suspect most could get by just fine with a smaller SUV or station wagon or minivan.

Trucks of course are manly.
I miss my truck. I know it was only a Ford Ranger, but having a truck around to haul crap that you don't want inside your car cabin is a really useful thing, even if you don't make use of it for that all that often. When I sold it it had >100K on it and I only got $2700 for it, and for years after that I thought to myself "maybe I should have just kept it--yeah it'll have to be registered and insured, but when I need it for truck stuff, it'll sure come in handy..."

A few years down the road when it's time for the Flex to be replaced, don't be shocked if I end up with an F-150 Lightning (or similar). It's not that I do "truck stuff" very often (and I'll keep the Jeep for 4x4 type fun), but it's nice to have the option. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 04, 2024, 02:44:11 PM
I used to borrow my neighbors S-10 when I needed one for mulch or whatever.  After he moved, I rented a truck from Mennards a few times for $20.  When I had a minivan, I could pretty much tote anything I needed except loose mulch/top soil.  Minivans are marvelous(ly boring).

Anyway, I've learned some things here about EVs, like how plugging into two outlets won't help.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Gigem on March 04, 2024, 03:50:37 PM
I took this last week near Houston.

New chargers installed at Shell gas station.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Gigem on March 04, 2024, 03:55:26 PM
Dang. It tilted it.

I edited the picture to rotate, it still flipped it. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on March 04, 2024, 03:57:40 PM
I took this last week near Houston.

New chargers installed at Shell gas station.
I'd put a couple at the hotel

or tourist attractions

places where folks are going to spend more than a few minutes
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 05, 2024, 01:29:50 PM
Ford's EV sales were up 80% vs same month last year. What did I say about those "EV sales are in the dumps" headlines? Demand and production cuts have more to do with pricing than customer interest. The strong sales were, you guessed it, thanks to Ford leveling out the prices on their EVs (somewhat). Still, Ford's massive prices increases on Lightning vs when it was launched is the main reason the production plans have been scaled back.

Now, let's put that good news in perspective. Ford shifted just 6,368 Mach Es and Lightnings combined [somewhat sad trombone]. That's somewhere around 45,000 units less than Tesla sells a month, but it is progress.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 06, 2024, 06:42:52 AM
2024 Ford E-Transit Electric Van Delivers More Range, Faster Charging (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/2024-ford-e-transit-electric-cargo-van-first-look-review/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AAMAG%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR2HpUFazvOlDUqO1Ms0QITazZarPylLOM3kewOW9JV2mqOWD0UfTX5GR-k)

I can see this as working for urban delivery companies who charge "at home".  I don't know how far they typically drive in a day.  $53 K and up is a sticking point.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 06, 2024, 09:59:26 AM
Electric cars release more particulate pollution.


https://www.wsj.com/articles/electric-cars-emit-more-soot-california-ban-gas-powered-vehicles-521b29e3?st=8u4upi6vxr70q5a&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Gigem on March 07, 2024, 08:56:40 AM
Been seeing a lot of those Amazon vans (electric vans) lately.  Like everyday.  I think they're made by Rivian.  They look cool for a delivery van.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 07, 2024, 09:02:41 AM
The particulate item is probably correct from what I can tell, but it's not due to brakes.  An EV will rarely use friction brakes.  Our hybrid is the same, anything other than hard braking uses the regen function.  Tire wear does appear to be greater.  So, you would experience higher particulate pollution per vehicle, I think, but CO2 emissions are lower.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 07, 2024, 09:11:40 AM
Goldman: The bear market for battery metals prices is far from over (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2024/03/05/goldman-the-bear-market-for-battery-metals-prices-is-far-from-over.html)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 07, 2024, 09:33:57 AM
The particulate item is probably correct from what I can tell, but it's not due to brakes.  An EV will rarely use friction brakes.  Our hybrid is the same, anything other than hard braking uses the regen function.  Tire wear does appear to be greater.  So, you would experience higher particulate pollution per vehicle, I think, but CO2 emissions are lower.
How about the emissions that go into making an EV?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 07, 2024, 09:39:00 AM
I read various "analyses" on this question, most claim a CO2 "payback" around 20,000 miles depending on this and that, even if the electricity comes from coal (it's longer for coal).  I'm not saying these analyses are correct.  The EV does produce less CO2 off our power grid than a car.

As noted, your monetary savings is ONLY if you charge at home most of the time.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 08, 2024, 03:56:11 PM
Finally saw a CyberTruck out there in the wild yesterday!

Holy crap, that thing is even uglier in person than in pictures!
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on March 09, 2024, 09:31:36 AM
worse than a Mustang???
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 09, 2024, 09:41:35 AM
worse than a Mustang???
Worse than anything.

I mean, in the running for "worst looking car/truck ever made". 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 09, 2024, 09:45:24 AM
Worse than anything.

I mean, in the running for "worst looking car/truck ever made".
$300K for the ugliest ever.


(https://i.imgur.com/IDwGCoM.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 09, 2024, 09:51:13 AM
$300K for the ugliest ever.


(https://i.imgur.com/IDwGCoM.png)
Yep. Hideous. And as I mentioned, even uglier in person. Which is know is nearly incomprehensible when you see how ugly it is in pictures.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on March 09, 2024, 10:13:11 AM
I've seen a couple around town in the past few weeks.  They're truly hideous.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 22, 2024, 01:16:06 PM
Email from Hertz.

Nobody even wants to rent this crap. 

Seems like can't even sell the inventory they are trying to unload.

(https://i.imgur.com/uFDCSR6.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 24, 2024, 12:41:35 PM
I noticed a few Teslas in Seoul and saw one "dealership" location.  I saw more of the Hyundai Ioniq EVs, but not many.  The tour buses were Diesels with manual transmissions.  Gasoline was around $4 per gallon.  The most popular type was a Hyundai sedan, they don't have as many SUVs, but I saw plenty of Tucsons, not as many as here.

I saw one Cadillac, three Chevys, quite a few Mercedes and BMWs, but of course they weren't common.

Traffic in the evening was ... very trafficky.

Right hand drive in Korea, left in Japan of course.  In Japan, most cars looked like small boxes on wheels.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on March 24, 2024, 12:49:04 PM
many windmills?
solar panels?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 24, 2024, 01:01:46 PM
I saw a FEW of each in Korea, I don't recall any in Japan, but I know they have some.  I don't think either country relies much on S&W.  Korea had some very large wind turbines that were not moving, they looked brand newish.

I meant to mention, the haze in Seoul was significant.  Visibility on a "clear" day was minimal, maybe 5 miles or so, much much less than here.  I don't know how much is natural vs manmade.  Japan was also hazy, but not as bad.  Seoul had MUCH worse traffic congestion than did Tokyo.



What is the main source of electricity in South Korea?

coal

Electricity generation in Korea is heavily dependent on coal, which represents over 40% of total generation. The vast majority of the remaining electricity generation derives from natural gas and nuclear energy, in roughly equal shares.


Electricity generation by type in South Korea 2022 | Statista (https://www.statista.com/statistics/884559/south-korea-electricity-generation-by-energy-source/)

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 24, 2024, 01:09:42 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/LkdFEfn.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on March 24, 2024, 01:11:15 PM
stupid nuclear disasters
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 24, 2024, 01:50:02 PM
Email from Hertz.

Nobody even wants to rent this crap.

Seems like can't even sell the inventory they are trying to unload.

(https://i.imgur.com/uFDCSR6.png)

You all know I'm interested in EVs. One aspect of that is that I'd actually like to get real-world experience with an EV without having to buy one and risk not liking it. It would seem to make sense that EV rentals would be ideal for someone like me...

...but you know what I don't want to do? Spend my vacation trying to figure out an EV rental car, where I'm going to charge it, what app(s) I need to charge, setting up accounts with my credit card for those apps, how long it's going to take, etc etc etc. Vacation is for relaxation and fun, not stressing about a vehicle that fuels differently from what I'm used to. 

Renting a car is the specific time that I want easy and known. I have enough other things going through my mind when traveling. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on March 24, 2024, 01:52:47 PM
You all know I'm interested in EVs. One aspect of that is that I'd actually like to get real-world experience with an EV without having to buy one and risk not liking it. It would seem to make sense that EV rentals would be ideal for someone like me...

...but you know what I don't want to do? Spend my vacation trying to figure out an EV rental car, where I'm going to charge it, what app(s) I need to charge, setting up accounts with my credit card for those apps, how long it's going to take, etc etc etc. Vacation is for relaxation and fun, not stressing about a vehicle that fuels differently from what I'm used to.

Renting a car is the specific time that I want easy and known. I have enough other things going through my mind when traveling.

If you needed to put a car in the shop for a bit, that might be a good time to experiment.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 24, 2024, 02:07:26 PM
A thing I note on SM rather constantly is extreme views about such things, e.g., eiither EVs are great and terrific, or EVs are some scandalous notion that can never work out.  At least here we've mostly had a decent pro/con discussion, which I find about most things gets more involved than many want to hear about.

The COVID vaccine is the same, either if you get one, it will kill you, OR if you don't, it will kill you, little balance at all.  And it aligns with if Trump is elected, it'll be the death of the US, and if he isn't ...

I realize folks somewhat "in the middle" are a lot less vocal about issues on SM by and large.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on March 24, 2024, 02:19:31 PM
like driving a ford or a chevy

good or bad

no middle ground
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 24, 2024, 02:23:07 PM
I think most Ford devotees would agree Chevys are at least "OK" cars.  The extremity to which some go on about EVs is far in excess of that in my experience.  

When I was younger, some would say "Oh, I once owned a Ford and it was crap, broke down daily." which was also of course hyperbole, but maybe they had a bad experience with a Ford, while others did OK with them, or found Chevys just as likely to break down.  Cars back then took a lot of maintenance and would break down more often than a modern car, fortunately.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 24, 2024, 02:57:01 PM
Toyota is on the brink of being able to produce solid-state batteries for electric vehicles (EVs) as quickly as conventional batteries, with mass production potentially starting around 2027 or 2028.
This progress stems from a breakthrough by Toyota that might halve the cost and size of these batteries. If this initiative succeeds, solid-state batteries could potentially double the range of EVs to around 1,200 km and cut charging times to 10 minutes or less.
Furthermore, Toyota has joined forces with Idemitsu, a leading Japanese oil company, to work together on technology aimed at mass-producing solid-state batteries.
Maybe so...
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on March 24, 2024, 02:57:42 PM
breakthrough
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 24, 2024, 03:46:23 PM
If you needed to put a car in the shop for a bit, that might be a good time to experiment.
True. Although with the Jeep I've got an extra one available. But yeah, if I had an issue where it was an insurance company sort of thing (like when I got rear-ended) I could always try that. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 24, 2024, 04:59:46 PM
Feds Tighten Emissions Rules, Making Life Tougher for Gas Vehicles (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a60255477/new-federal-emissions-rules-aiming-for-more-evs/?utm_campaign=trueanthemR%26T&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR39B7SzHtEDfTI1A1dFLWy7vfqeLKI5fA8oc8N__f2dP7ju3nwJBpxPbBE)

The EPA said the new pollution rules will reduce cumulative carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions by 7.2 billion metric tons by 2055.


FYI, that reduction over the next 32 yeats cumulatively is about one years worth (a bit more).  And this would only be true if all that actually happens.  Ergo, this would be a pretty modest step.  As I keep saying, there is no plan out there because any analysis on any plan would show how ludicrously inadequate and expensive the plan would be.  And by 2050, half the vehicles on the road would still be ICE types.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 25, 2024, 08:35:24 AM
Meanwhile, there are still around:

2023 BMW M2 vs. Porsche 718 Cayman GTS 4.0: Do We Really Have to Choose? (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2023-bmw-m2-vs-porsche-718-cayman-gts-40-comparison-test-review/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AMT%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR3LK0q-t4KEOwMkHgR8eaRHDWHWgji83HXHkqthAXT6fA6mO-jH7tiAGFs)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on March 25, 2024, 09:04:23 AM
there is a sporty car thread buried somewhere

I'd pick the Porsche mostly because of the looks

the M2 price is perhaps less $$ than my chevy

they are both the right color
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on March 25, 2024, 09:16:39 AM
Those are both nice-looking, way better than the average EV.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 25, 2024, 09:21:06 AM
Meanwhile, there are still around:

2023 BMW M2 vs. Porsche 718 Cayman GTS 4.0: Do We Really Have to Choose? (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2023-bmw-m2-vs-porsche-718-cayman-gts-40-comparison-test-review/?sm_id=organic%3Asm_id%3Afb%3AMT%3Atrueanthem&fbclid=IwAR3LK0q-t4KEOwMkHgR8eaRHDWHWgji83HXHkqthAXT6fA6mO-jH7tiAGFs)
BMW wins out here:

(https://i.imgur.com/PgZ6XeH.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 25, 2024, 09:21:13 AM
Not as good looking as the Cybertruck obviously.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on March 25, 2024, 09:27:16 AM
Not as good looking as the Cybertruck obviously.

(https://i.imgur.com/TQWISu0.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 25, 2024, 11:14:29 AM
Tesla Cybertruck, Rivian, Chevy Silverado EV, Ford Lightning: Coast-To-Coast Comparison (insideevs.com) (https://insideevs.com/reviews/713580/tesla-rivian-ford-chevy-road-trip/)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 26, 2024, 05:37:52 AM
This small curbside EV charger can deliver 200 miles of range in 13 minutes (electrek.co) (https://electrek.co/2024/03/25/curbside-ev-charger-can-deliver-200-miles-of-range-13-minutes/?fbclid=IwAR3uxlJFpFvjSx_NwuKRhrr8BKGtkqlteoqOM-bqkjwIJLU2e-iQZ_k4TAU)

Fast DC chargers are great, but they're way more expensive than slow AC chargers. Which means that for the same money you can deploy perhaps 100 AC chargers or 1 DC charger, and it's far from obvious that deploying 1 DC charger is better for EV owners than 100 AC chargers. Imagine if there were an AC charger between every two curbside parking spots, you could park anywhere and charge while you're running errands, or at home overnight, etc.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 26, 2024, 06:31:16 AM
Hybrid cars now have 'very few compromises' says Ford executive — and sales are booming - Autoblog (https://www.autoblog.com/2024/03/23/hybrid-cars-now-have-very-few-compromises-says-ford-executive-and-sales-are-booming/?ncid=edlinkusauto00000016&fbclid=IwAR0R1JQs8ZRgBA2OPRglpjrSfAtOu-nUCkevWvdFHv75OARAXIqHRt-Jblg)

In all this "rush" to EVs, maybe folks should take a step back and consider this alternative as a worthy and practicable goal.  If we lived in a detached house, I'd be interested in a plug in hybrid with say 35 miles of EV range.  It would take some calculating to figure effective "mpgs" on that vehicle depending on driving habits.  I think, for us, we drive more than 35 miles say once a month, maybe a trip of 400 miles, maybe 1,000.  Our current hybrid does about 33 mpg highway, so call it 30 gallons of gas, once a month, and then nearly no gas for the rest of the month.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 27, 2024, 12:50:46 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/8U3WapQ.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 27, 2024, 01:06:28 PM
Italians are smart.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 27, 2024, 01:10:30 PM
No tolls in Norway.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 27, 2024, 01:18:10 PM
Bad food in Norway.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 27, 2024, 01:22:17 PM
Italians are poor.
FTFY...
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 27, 2024, 01:23:31 PM
Many are, but they get by and don't sleep on the streets among feces and spent needles.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 27, 2024, 01:47:56 PM
Many are, but they get by and don't sleep on the streets among feces and spent needles.
And this is relevant to electric vehicles how?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 27, 2024, 01:50:35 PM
And your post was?

Most Italians are not poor, FYI. 

Most of the poor ones who there who are NOT Italian.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on March 27, 2024, 01:53:12 PM
Italians make great food.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 27, 2024, 01:54:45 PM
And your post was?

Most Italians are not poor, FYI.

Most of the poor ones who there who are NOT Italian.
My post was simple: EVs are expensive luxury items, so ownership rate in poorer countries will likely be lower than in richer countries.

Italy has one of the lowest GDP/capita of "Western" Europe--only Spain and Portugal seem to be lower: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=TH%2F-EU&most_recent_value_desc=true
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 27, 2024, 02:04:08 PM
Yep. OK.

(https://i.imgur.com/0Do8oid.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 27, 2024, 02:11:21 PM
Yeah, so the three lowest GDP/capita countries in Western Europe have three of the four lowest EV shares of their total auto market. 

There are obviously outliers on that list; China and the US. We could debate why those outliers exist. And of course Norway is a HUGE outlier, which is largely government policy--although they can only get away with that policy it because they're a rich country.

But within Europe, there seems to be a pretty strong correlation there between GDP/capita and EV share of their auto market. 

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 27, 2024, 02:29:56 PM
Choices.

Again - Italians are not poor. Other residents of that country are poor. Same goes for Spain and Portugal. Open borders to refugees and your GDP/Capita is gonna go down. Very simple.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 27, 2024, 02:42:30 PM
Choices.

Again - Italians are not poor. Other residents of that country are poor. Same goes for Spain and Portugal. Open borders to refugees and your GDP/Capita is gonna go down. Very simple.
They're not a rich country by Euro standard. But sure. Let's exclude the "rich" and the "poor" Italians by not focusing on GDP/Capita. Let's look at their middle classes. 

https://www.cesifo.org/en/publications/2023/article-journal/income-and-tax-burden-middle-class-europe

(https://i.imgur.com/H5Z6hSE.png)

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 27, 2024, 03:00:35 PM
It would be interesting to see in the US the income breakdown of folks with EVs versus rep.  As expected ...

 According to a study published in the Energy Research Social Science Journal, the majority of EV owners are white, own a home, have multiple vehicles, and have a higher income compared to the general population. About 60% of EV owners have an annual income of more than $100,000, while only 20% have an annual income of less than $50,000.
This disparity in EV ownership can be attributed to a number of factors. EVs are generally more expensive than gas-powered vehicles, which can make them less affordable for low-income individuals and families. Additionally, many low-income individuals and families may not have access to the type of financing that is needed to purchase an EV.
Another reason for the disparity in EV ownership is access to charging stations. Many low-income individuals and families may not have access to a charging station at home, which can make it difficult to charge an EV.



Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on March 27, 2024, 05:44:59 PM
I can't afford one
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 27, 2024, 06:53:52 PM
I can't afford one
Well not any more, after buying that other car :57:
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on March 27, 2024, 08:40:43 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/2aL3Wsh.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Mdot21 on March 28, 2024, 09:11:09 AM
Bad food in Norway.
bad food in the Netherlands, UK, Germany, and Sweden as well imo. 

Italy, France, and Spain on the other hand, phenomenal food. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 28, 2024, 09:14:15 AM
We found some pretty good food in Sweden and Copenhagen.  A couple places were borderline excellent I thought, may places were just solid and interesting.

Copenhagen has one French bistro type place that was excellent, we had lunch there often, but it was run by Frenchmen, so that hardly counts.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Mdot21 on March 28, 2024, 09:14:51 AM
FTFY...
Lol what? Italy is not some poor country in Africa or the Caribbean. Yeah they aren't as rich as their EU neighbors to the north France or Germany or as the UK, but it's still a highly developed first world nation with one of the 10 largest economies in the world in terms of GDP. Oh and it's also in my opinion maybe the most freaking beautiful country in the world to visit with incredible food.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Mdot21 on March 28, 2024, 09:17:39 AM
We found some pretty good food in Sweden and Copenhagen.  A couple places were borderline excellent I thought, may places were just solid and interesting.

Copenhagen has one French bistro type place that was excellent, we had lunch there often, but it was run by Frenchmen, so that hardly counts.
well yeah, I'm sure they all have great restaurants here or there- even in the UK- and I believe the highest rated restaurant in the world is a 3* Michelin in Norway.

But on the whole, on average, food kinda sucks in those places. And their cultures own food culture- kinda sucks. Found that most little mom and pop places in Oslo didn't even serve Norwegian food- lot of Turkish places. This was probably like 10 years ago, so might've changed I don't know.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Mdot21 on March 28, 2024, 09:19:03 AM
And this is relevant to electric vehicles how?
Idk? Lot of the shitlibs who once worshipped Elon Musk that now hate Elon Musk in shit-hole California drive his EV's? 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Mdot21 on March 28, 2024, 09:21:12 AM
Italians make great food.
And art. And wine. And gangs. The mafia, c'mon who can top that? And empires. RIP Roman Empire. Oh and cars. Holy sh*t have you seen the newer Pagani's? Most beautiful cars in the world if you ask me and it's not even remotely close.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 28, 2024, 09:25:19 AM
bad food in the Netherlands, UK, Germany, and Sweden as well imo.

Italy, France, and Spain on the other hand, phenomenal food.
We had good meals in Amsterdam. Granted, the places we went to were French and Steakhouses. We did have some awesome seafood there too, in Volendam.

I have to get to Germany. Munich in particular. I love German food. Sauerbraten is my favorite meal. I make it often.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Mdot21 on March 28, 2024, 09:26:11 AM
My post was simple: EVs are expensive luxury items, so ownership rate in poorer countries will likely be lower than in richer countries.
have a feeling like once China starts flooding the US/EU market with their EVs in 2025 or 2026 prices on EVs will start coming down. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 28, 2024, 09:29:21 AM
I think one poster here is considering an EV purchase (in CA).  He can charge at home which helps immensely, and gas is not cheap out there (nor is electricity).  I know "we" are hardly typical, but I'd guess "we" comprise a somewhat higher than mean income level.  One out of 30 or so isn't a good figure, I think.

Might I be interested in say 2035?  That depends on a lot of factors of course, but my gasoline expenses with the hybrid are really not very high as we don't drive much in a year, maybe 6,000 miles.  That would be less than 200 gallons, which around here is about $600.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 28, 2024, 09:30:46 AM
Imagine an EV was exactly the same cost as an ICEV today, with the same features and attributes.  Would you buy one?  I would not.

I can't charge at home, end of story.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Mdot21 on March 28, 2024, 09:31:02 AM
We had good meals in Amsterdam. Granted, the places we went to were French and Steakhouses. We did have some awesome seafood there too, in Volendam.

I have to get to Germany. Munich in particular. I love German food. Sauerbraten is my favorite meal. I make it often.
yeah, that's kind my point- you go to those countries and you're eating French food or Turkish food lol. 

I've been to Germany only twice, but was not a fan of the food at all. It's all bland, meat and sausages and potatoes. 

Just hard to really enjoy the Northern Europeans shitty food when you've eaten all around Italy, France, and Spain.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 28, 2024, 09:32:53 AM
yeah, that's kind my point- you go to those countries and you're eating French food or Turkish food lol.

I've been to Germany only twice, but was not a fan of the food at all. It's all bland, meat and sausages and potatoes.

Just hard to really enjoy the Northern Europeans shitty food when you've eaten all around Italy, France, and Spain.
Where in Germany?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Mdot21 on March 28, 2024, 09:34:21 AM
I think one poster here is considering an EV purchase (in CA).  He can charge at home which helps immensely, and gas is not cheap out there (nor is electricity).  I know "we" are hardly typical, but I'd guess "we" comprise a somewhat higher than mean income level.  One out of 30 or so isn't a good figure, I think.

Might I be interested in say 2035?  That depends on a lot of factors of course, but my gasoline expenses with the hybrid are really not very high as we don't drive much in a year, maybe 6,000 miles.  That would be less than 200 gallons, which around here is about $600.
I can't do the EV thing until they have at least 400-500 mile range- THAT YOU ACTUALLY GET- on a full charge as a baseline standard no questions asked- and until they have the charging infrastructure where there are chargers on every corner like we have gas pumps on every corner now. Oh and until they get the fast charging times from 45 minutes to an hour down to like 10-15 minutes. Otherwise not interested. Ever.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 28, 2024, 09:38:55 AM
I'm mostly hung up on the cost to charge an EV away from home.  That, to me, is the KEY, more than range or charging times.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Mdot21 on March 28, 2024, 09:39:28 AM
Where in Germany?
this was back in like 2009 and 2011 I want to say, went to Frankfurt, Munich, Cologne, and Bamberg. 

One of the craziest things I've ever seen by the way- driving into Frankfurt from the airport I remember they had this giant billboard for an ad for this place which I had to drive past on the way to the hotel- it was a god damn apartment building brothel. Literally like a 10 story apartment building and the entire thing is just a brothel. Craziest shit I've ever seen in my life. The Germans are freaky.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 28, 2024, 09:41:28 AM
They make some great cars.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Mdot21 on March 28, 2024, 09:43:16 AM
I'm mostly hung up on the cost to charge an EV away from home.  That, to me, is the KEY, more than range or charging times.
I tested out the Porsche EV for a few days, and it cost about $15-18 every time to charge it up from around 30-40% to 90-95%. Doesn't seem like a lot....but it takes 45 minutes to an hr to charge every time- and I had to charge the thing constantly because the range on a full charge is only like 230 miles and you NEVER get anywhere close to that 230 miles.

Comes out to basically the same price as pumping gas because have to charge it so much- and the wait times for the charging is ridiculous. And that's if you're lucky and you get to a charger where no one is already using them all. Then you're waiting twice as long. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Mdot21 on March 28, 2024, 09:44:22 AM
They make some great cars.
that they do. and kitchen cabinets. and beer. and elevators. and trains. 

their food sucks ass though. in my opinion.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 28, 2024, 09:47:52 AM
I guess M-B is shooting for all-electric by 2030? Not sure about BMW and Porsche.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 28, 2024, 09:52:26 AM
I guess M-B is shooting for all-electric by 2030? Not sure about BMW and Porsche.
Various automakers are claiming a similar timeline, Cadillac is as well.  I view this as subject to change depending on market forces (duh).

I saw Hyundai was building a huge plant near Savannah to build EVs and is now saying it may build hybrids as well.  I think Toyota and Honda are nearer to getting this right.

But as long as charging away from home costs about the same as gasoline, it seems like not a very good equation for me.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 28, 2024, 09:59:28 AM
When Every Car Brand Plans to Go Electric | Gear Patrol (https://www.gearpatrol.com/cars/g38986745/car-brands-going-electric/)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 28, 2024, 10:02:51 AM
I guess I'll by my last M-B in 2029.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 28, 2024, 10:05:32 AM
have a feeling like once China starts flooding the US/EU market with their EVs in 2025 or 2026 prices on EVs will start coming down.
Eh. EV costs won't come down until/unless battery costs come down. Prices can never decline, long term, faster than costs. And since batteries are a HUGE reason why EVs cost so much, the battery prices need to come down. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 28, 2024, 10:08:06 AM
I guess I'll by my last M-B in 2029.
I have a strong hunch these plans will get changed.  Maybe they create some other brand for ICE Vs.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Mdot21 on March 28, 2024, 10:14:24 AM
Eh. EV costs won't come down until/unless battery costs come down. Prices can never decline, long term, faster than costs. And since batteries are a HUGE reason why EVs cost so much, the battery prices need to come down.
BYD is backed by the Chinese state. They can operate at losses infinitely so long as the state of China subsidizes them.

BYD will try to steal market share by slashing prices and trying to undercut it's competition (which it's already done in China to supplant Tesla as #1 there)- which will just force the competition to match and slash prices in US/EU markets. Will be a little harder for them to do in the US but not impossible considering the tariffs the Trump administration put in place on China (thank god for that)- and will be virtually impossible for them if Trump is elected (fingers crossed) as he has promised to put a 100% tariff on Chinese made in Mexico EVs- but as of now there are no such tariffs in the EU- which at the moment is the larger, more important market to EV makers.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 28, 2024, 10:28:46 AM
BYD is backed by the Chinese state. They can operate at losses infinitely so long as the state of China subsidizes them.

BYD will try to steal market share by slashing prices and trying to undercut it's competition (which it's already done in China to supplant Tesla as #1 there)- which will just force the competition to match and slash prices in US/EU markets. Will be a little harder for them to do in the US but not impossible considering the tariffs the Trump administration put in place on China (thank god for that)- and will be virtually impossible for them if Trump is elected (fingers crossed) as he has promised to put a 100% tariff on Chinese made in Mexico EVs- but as of now there are no such tariffs in the EU- which at the moment is the larger, more important market to EV makers.
I dunno... China is heading for an economic reckoning based on making bad decisions "infinitely" eventually having to come home to roost.

But I would ask... Who in America will buy a Chinese BEV? I very well might be the most pro-EV person on this forum, and I wouldn't touch one at any price. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Mdot21 on March 28, 2024, 10:35:29 AM
I dunno... China is heading for an economic reckoning based on making bad decisions "infinitely" eventually having to come home to roost.

But I would ask... Who in America will buy a Chinese BEV? I very well might be the most pro-EV person on this forum, and I wouldn't touch one at any price.
I wouldn't touch any Chinese made EV. But there will be no shortage of Americans buying them if they are very affordable. BYD has slashed prices so low in China that they are selling brand new EV hatchbacks for around $11,500. This is under $12k and will sell a truck load of those in the EU taking a chunk out of EU auto makers asses and US auto makers asses to a lesser degree (we sell cars in EU too, ya know).

(https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/koBooP/s1/byd-seagull---salao-de-xangai.webp)

And then there is this line of BYD EV they want to export to the US within a couple of years....which they will try to price slash and sell below Tesla, GM, Ford's comparable EV models...

(https://www.topgear.com/sites/default/files/2023/12/1%20BYD%20Seal%20review.JPG)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 28, 2024, 10:42:12 AM
Nope.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 28, 2024, 10:43:18 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/PLxPIeg.jpeg)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Mdot21 on March 28, 2024, 10:45:24 AM
Nope.
yeah, I'm with you. I wouldn't touch em. At all. But if their prices are lower than everyone else, even lower than ICEV....Americans will buy them unfortunately.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 28, 2024, 10:51:21 AM
Well I wouldn't fear an $11.5K vehicle in the US with size and specs that make a Nissan Leaf look luxurious:

(https://i.imgur.com/vgLVtQ3.png)

The second one (similar vehicle class to Model 3) appears to be selling in other places (NZ/AUS) slightly below Tesla pricing, but not just dumping for pennies. 

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on March 28, 2024, 11:00:08 AM
Eh. EV costs won't come down until/unless battery costs come down. Prices can never decline, long term, faster than costs. And since batteries are a HUGE reason why EVs cost so much, the battery prices need to come down.


And it's also unlikely they'll meet MDot's other stated requirement of a 15-minute full charge, any time soon.  We're simply up against the laws of physics here. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 28, 2024, 11:11:40 AM
Then there are the various safety requirements in the US, things like crash testing and whatnot.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Mdot21 on March 28, 2024, 11:21:48 AM
Well I wouldn't fear an $11.5K vehicle in the US with size and specs that make a Nissan Leaf look luxurious:

(https://i.imgur.com/vgLVtQ3.png)

The second one (similar vehicle class to Model 3) appears to be selling in other places (NZ/AUS) slightly below Tesla pricing, but not just dumping for pennies.
yeah, I said that little hatchback would kill in the EU market, not here. We sell lot of cars in the EU too, around 20% of all our car exports are to the EU. Would be bad for our car companies, for sure.

That other model would sell probably here, and it was significantly lower than Tesla prices, and only recently slightly below Tesla pricing because Tesla slashed their prices to stay competitive. 

Tesla is the #1 EV seller in the world. BYD beat Tesla last quarter of 2023 by over 100k in vehicle sales and were just a couple hundred thousand short of Tesla for the year and will likely outsell them in 2024 and take the crown from Tesla. And BYD is going nowhere. It's backed by the Chinese state and Warren Buffett and his Berkshire Hathaway holding company have invested heavily all the way back in the days when they were only making batteries. Berkshire had owned 10% of the company up until 6 months ago, they have since sold a bunch of shares- but they still own around 4% of the company- which is still a freaking sizable chunk for one investor to hold on a publicly traded company.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Mdot21 on March 28, 2024, 11:24:19 AM
And it's also unlikely they'll meet MDot's other stated requirement of a 15-minute full charge, any time soon.  We're simply up against the laws of physics here.
I just don't see how they become widely adopted in this country until they get the charge pumps on every block like we have gas stations on every block- and until they get the charge times down significantly. Americans are an impatient bunch of people- and who the hell has 45 minutes or an hour to wait around to fill their car up constantly when they are on the go? 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 28, 2024, 11:30:48 AM
If I were a husband working and my wife had an ICE vehicle, I'd consider an EV relatively soon as a "get to work and back" car.  That scenario eliminates isses around charging time, charging away from home costs, and range.

The other possibility would be to have two EVs and rent something for trips.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on March 28, 2024, 11:33:04 AM
I'd consider one when the total cost of ownership and operating for a 10 year period was 10% less than a gasser
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 28, 2024, 11:41:42 AM
I just don't see how they become widely adopted in this country until they get the charge pumps on every block like we have gas stations on every block- and until they get the charge times down significantly. Americans are an impatient bunch of people- and who the hell has 45 minutes or an hour to wait around to fill their car up constantly when they are on the go?
I do think this reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of how EV owners typically operate.

Most will rarely ever visit a public charger. They get home at night, plug in their EV, and when they wake up it's charged and ready to go. Unlike gas cars, they CAN "fuel" it at home so it reduces the number of public chargers we'll eventually need to some fraction of how many gas stations we need. In fact, if you ask many EV owners, it's the LACK of range anxiety that's one of the selling points of an EV--you don't have to think about range / fueling at all unless you know you're going to be driving 200+ miles in a day. And for most Americans, driving that much in a day is a rarity. (If someone is an outlier on the daily mileage, they're probably not a prime EV candidate.)

BTW the other misunderstanding is that most EV drivers won't use a public DC fast charger to get their car up to 100% the way an ICEV driver will "fill" the tank. As we discussed I think WAY upthread one of the fundamental characteristics of battery charging is that going from say 10%->80% full will take as long as going from 80%->100% full, so most will only go to 80% at a DC fast charger--which is usually more in the 20-30 minute range. 

Some newer EVs based on an 800V, are even faster. The Kia EV6 can go from 10%->80% in as little as 18 minutes (https://www.kia.com/in/service/ev-owners/charging-infra.html), on a 350kW fast charger. 

IMHO the biggest hindrance on adoption will be, as CD mentions, people who can't charge at home. If you have to rely on a public charger for 100% of your charging instead of (for most EV owners) close to 0% of your charging, EVs are a hassle. But that's also why BYD would be less likely to make significant inroads to the US market based on price--as CD also posted above, it's mostly wealthier people who happen to be homeowners buying EVs in this country. They're going to be less price-sensitive and willing to be seen driving a "low cost" Chinese BEV. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 28, 2024, 11:48:06 AM
I'd consider one when the total cost of ownership and operating for a 10 year period was 10% less than a gasser
The best case today would be the Nissan Leaf at $30 K, you can probably get a deal on one, but no Federal subsidy.  Let's say you charge at home at 15 cents per and drive 10,000 miles a year, mostly around town.  An equivalent ICE would cost you probably $22 K, give or take.  Over 100,000 miles, it would probably use about 3,000 gallons of gas, let's price it at $4, so $12,000.  I'll omit brakes and oil changes for now, tire wear might cost more.

The cost to charge it would be about $4,500 (at home).  That's a nope.  If you snagged the $7500 subsidy, it works out OK.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on March 28, 2024, 12:34:03 PM
how about trade in value in ten years when the battery needs to be replaced?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 28, 2024, 01:01:47 PM
I figure any car costing about $20 K new is going to be worth about $5000 in ten years, maybe.  A Leaf with a weak battery might be worth a grand, maybe.

The Chevy Bolt provided better figures, I think, but it's in between now.  A 2017 Chevy Bolt goes for about $17 K, not much mileage yet of course.

The new model Bolt COULD have better overall figures.  Maybe.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 28, 2024, 01:04:40 PM
how about trade in value in ten years when the battery needs to be replaced?
Less than zero. You have to dispose it.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 28, 2024, 01:27:40 PM
Ten year old Tesla Ss still go for around $20 K.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 28, 2024, 01:33:03 PM
how about trade in value in ten years when the battery needs to be replaced?
Less than zero. You have to dispose it.
You know, you can find such things pretty easily by looking at Autotrader. I did a search for Tesla, 2016 or older, and sorted by highest mileage. 


(https://i.imgur.com/h92Gam4.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/ocZDGjZ.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/loXdpL6.png)

Seems to me that cars with mileage in excess (some well in excess) are still going for pretty decent numbers. 

Here are some similar (IMHO) gassers...

(https://i.imgur.com/7srTU5I.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/vpLmG8X.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 28, 2024, 01:36:36 PM
If it needs a new battery in a year, it's worth ZERO.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 28, 2024, 01:40:54 PM
If it needs a new battery in a year, it's worth ZERO.
Yeah, and clearly the market has spoken that it is NOT believed that a 10 year old Tesla with >100K miles is going to need a new battery in a year, or they wouldn't be fetching these numbers. 

Wouldn't shock me of those Beemers rack up >$5K in unplanned maintenance costs WELL before those Teslas on average. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 28, 2024, 01:56:54 PM
Costs me very little to do maintenance on my 10 y/o Benz. Just did the yearly last month.

$185.00.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 28, 2024, 02:14:46 PM
Costs me very little to do maintenance on my 10 y/o Benz. Just did the yearly last month.

$185.00.
Some other industry folks think differently re: Mercs... https://caredge.com/mercedes-benz/maintenance

Oddly guess who does pretty well on these metrics? https://caredge.com/tesla/maintenance
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 28, 2024, 02:51:19 PM
I can only speak to my experience.

Last year I spent $1,200.00 or so. $100/month. No car payment.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 28, 2024, 03:11:26 PM
I can only speak to my experience.

Last year I spent $1,200.00 or so. $100/month. No car payment.
Yeah, I'm assuming that other owners had it worse... Like the year (~2004?) where my ex's VW Passat was just past its warranty (~65K miles) and in one year racked up $5K in repair bills. 

I'm a little surprised to see how strongly Tesla ranks, but that site otherwise followed what I expected... Japanese brands leading the pack, American and non-Japanese Asian brands behind them, and Euros picking up the rear. 

But it goes to show you how much anecdotal info (and media amplification of it) can skew the narrative. You've had good luck with Mercedes despite them being very poorly ranked for maintenance costs, so you're an MB fan. And a few scare stories about people having to pay enormous battery replacement costs--amplified by the anti-EV forces within media--skew you to believe that will be the norm. 

The data doesn't seem to back it up, though. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on March 28, 2024, 03:18:07 PM
I do think this reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of how EV owners typically operate.

Most will rarely ever visit a public charger. They get home at night, plug in their EV, and when they wake up it's charged and ready to go. Unlike gas cars, they CAN "fuel" it at home so it reduces the number of public chargers we'll eventually need to some fraction of how many gas stations we need.

I think we need to be careful about painting with a broad brush here.  Because I believe there's a fairly large segment of the total potential EV market, that consists of urban apartment/condo dwellers who would otherwise be inclined to buy an EV, but can't because their apartment/condo parking situations don't provide for home overnight charging.

Your comments work for suburban home owners, but they aren't appropriate for those in urban situations that don't provide adequate infrastructure.  Cincy has already commented that this is HIS situation, and he's far from alone.

For various reasons I think that the urbanist condo/apartment dweller and the potential EV driver have quite a bit of philosophical overlap, and yet this potential target segment must be removed from the calculations of total available market for EV purchasers.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 28, 2024, 03:18:35 PM
We are a one-car family and we put about 6-7K miles per year on the car.

An EV makes zero sense to us (except our golf cart, with which the battery is already starting to fail after 3+ years).
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on March 28, 2024, 03:22:20 PM
I had a friend who bought three Saabs in a row, insisted they were good cars despite them spending massive amounts of time at the mechanic's shop.  Then he bought a VW Passat that was still a POS but spent slightly less time in the shop than his Saabs, so he insisted it was a good car.

Just sayin'.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 28, 2024, 03:31:07 PM
I think we need to be careful about painting with a broad brush here.  Because I believe there's a fairly large segment of the total potential EV market, that consists of urban apartment/condo dwellers who would otherwise be inclined to buy an EV, but can't because their apartment/condo parking situations don't allow it. 

Your comments work for suburban home owners, but they aren't appropriate for those in urban situations that don't provide adequate infrastructure.  Cincy has already commented that this is HIS situation, and he's far from alone.

For various reasons I think that the urbanist condo/apartment dweller and the potential EV driver have quite a bit of philosophical overlap, and yet this potential target segment must be removed from the calculations of total available market for EV purchasers.
Agree 100%.

CD's quotation from some source upthread pointed out as much. EV sales in the US are dominated by those in higher income brackets, who own their homes, majority white, and quite often the BEV is not the only vehicle in the household. As you can probably imagine, I'd say that demographic skews more conservative and would be less likely than "average" to desire an EV. 

And the younger, single, apartment-dwelling, less affluent demographic probably skews more liberal and has much higher than "average" to desire an EV, but their living situation doesn't easily allow for charging at home. This screws up both the cost and convenience advantages of an EV, if they're even available to afford them at all, as EVs are generally more expensive than an equivalent ICEV. 

I do expect that over the next decade, we'll see more and more apartment/condo facilities building in some sort of EV charging capability just due to demand and to offer competitive "amenities". I think maybe by 2035, having on-site charging might be table stakes for apartment/condo communities to attract people to live there. But it's certainly not in place today IMHO. And even if it's communal charging stations, that's STILL not as convenient as plugging in to the garage in your single family home at the end of the day and not having to unplug, to move your car, or to do anything like that to make the charger avalilble to someone else. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: utee94 on March 28, 2024, 03:36:38 PM
Agree 100%.

CD's quotation from some source upthread pointed out as much. EV sales in the US are dominated by those in higher income brackets, who own their homes, majority white, and quite often the BEV is not the only vehicle in the household. As you can probably imagine, I'd say that demographic skews more conservative and would be less likely than "average" to desire an EV.

And the younger, single, apartment-dwelling, less affluent demographic probably skews more liberal and has much higher than "average" to desire an EV, but their living situation doesn't easily allow for charging at home. This screws up both the cost and convenience advantages of an EV, if they're even available to afford them at all, as EVs are generally more expensive than an equivalent ICEV.

I do expect that over the next decade, we'll see more and more apartment/condo facilities building in some sort of EV charging capability just due to demand and to offer competitive "amenities". I think maybe by 2035, having on-site charging might be table stakes for apartment/condo communities to attract people to live there. But it's certainly not in place today IMHO. And even if it's communal charging stations, that's STILL not as convenient as plugging in to the garage in your single family home at the end of the day and not having to unplug, to move your car, or to do anything like that to make the charger avalilble to someone else.

Living in apartments through college and early professional life, there were quite a few arguments and open fights over the most desirable parking spots.

I can't even imagine how much worse it could be, when people are vying for the spots that allow overnight charging.  And how often those vehicles might be "accidentally" unplugged, and plugged into another car.  And then more chaos and hilarity ensue.

I assume they'd make it a paid amenity, like having a garage or a guaranteed parking spot in front of your own front door is currently.  But if it's a paid amenity, then it's not really analogous to the "free" overnight charging at your own suburban home.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 28, 2024, 03:54:46 PM
Living in apartments through college and early professional life, there were quite a few arguments and open fights over the most desirable parking spots.

I can't even imagine how much worse it could be, when people are vying for the spots that allow overnight charging.  And how often those vehicles might be "accidentally" unplugged, and plugged into another car.  And then more chaos and hilarity ensue.

I assume they'd make it a paid amenity, like having a garage or a guaranteed parking spot in front of your own front door is currently.  But if it's a paid amenity, then it's not really analogous to the "free" overnight charging at your own suburban home.
Yeah, lots to work out there. For example at my office, we have a limited number of EV chargers in the parking garage. I think there is a maximum 4 hour use per parking spot, but I don't know how it is or would be enforced. My guess is that since we all work together, it's a sort of "honor system" sort of thing where you don't want to get the reputation as the guy/gal who just leaves their car plugged in for 8 hours. But I highly doubt that'll survive given apartment complex resident politics :57:

The other question is how you meter it. My recollection of typical apartments is that electric was one of the utilities you typically still had to pay, and it was individually metered per unit. I.e. you don't want someone coming in and setting up a bitcoin mine for cheap electricity rates lol. But when I lived in a complex with individually-assigned single garage units, there were no electric outlets in the garage because they couldn't be feasibly metered. So you have to either bring in a third-party charging company to install (which will mean they set the rates and it won't be cheap like charging "at home"), or if it's a paid amenity, you need to set the rate high enough on average to spread it over the entire user base and not lose money on the deal, if you can't meter it individually. 

It's certainly not an easy problem, but I'm sure the world will slowly meander its way towards figuring it out lol...
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on March 28, 2024, 04:17:53 PM
early adopters of apartment/condo chargers are gonna bill high fees to offset the initial coast and installation of the charging units and the power they draw.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 28, 2024, 04:20:12 PM
Not in our case, the two chargers we have here were installed "for free".  I presume they run off building power though.  The nearby Kroger now has four charger in the lot.

The issue is they cost 3x or more relative to retail electric power.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on March 28, 2024, 04:23:04 PM
The issue is they cost 3x or more relative to retail electric power.
so, the evil landlord will recoup the cost eventually if he's lucky
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 28, 2024, 04:27:24 PM
Some company usually installs these chargers.  It costs them money to build, install, and operate.  They obviously then charge fees to make a profit and sell the power at ~3x retail.  I forget which outfit installed ours, I looked at the meter once.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 28, 2024, 04:31:04 PM
Not in our case, the two chargers we have here were installed "for free".  I presume they run off building power though.  The nearby Kroger now has four charger in the lot.

The issue is they cost 3x or more relative to retail electric power.
I'm not sure how true that actually is. From what I understand DC fast chargers typically are the most expensive to use, but the lower power chargers that are more economical to install may not have such exorbitant rates. If all you need is 2 hours at an L2 charger while you're perusing things at the mall or at the theater watching a movie, it might not be 3x. 

I think some places (shopping centers) even may put them in as "free to use" (https://4frontenergy.com/blog/how-to-find-free-ev-charging/). Not owning one, I don't know how plentiful free EV chargers are or how easy it is to find them. And as EV ownership increases, I don't know how economically feasible it will be to actually continue seeing "free" anywhere.  

But one might think, as well, that as EVs proliferate, charging locations may need to compete with each other on charging rates. From one google search you can search free chargers via the "PlugShare" app, but I couldn't look at their web site without registering so I didn't. I'm sure that these charging companies will allow you to filter based on charge rate to find the cheapest chargers, and over time that might drive the cost of EV charging down to bulk electricity rate + cost to install/amortize/maintain the charger + a reasonable profit. I highly doubt that will be 3x home charging. 

Granted, this is just me speculating on the economics. But it's not like we don't see gas stations competing based on price. You don't see gas for 4.69/gal and on the opposite corner it's 7.49/gal. They have to compete. Usually they're all within a dime or two of each other per gallon within a small geographical area.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 28, 2024, 04:39:26 PM
I used 45 cents per kWhr, versus 15 cents at home.  From what I can tell on line, this varies a lot of course but is probably near the median cost.

How Much Does It Cost to Charge an EV on a Road Trip? (investopedia.com) (https://www.investopedia.com/cost-to-charge-ev-road-trip-5219817)

I checked a number of sites on these costs and they all have wide ranges, 30-60 cents is a common one, so I used 45 cents.  An L2 charger is less expensive, and slower.

I don't know how much a single charge costs, I'm sure that varies widely, but when considering initial cost, any maintenance, going costs, profit,  I think 3x is not beyond the pale.



Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 28, 2024, 04:49:17 PM


Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: FearlessF on March 28, 2024, 05:24:52 PM
800-plus stations with around 3,500 fast chargers

so about 4 chargers per site

I was at a truck stop on I-80 in Iowa

there were about 6 chargers - one car charging with his tunes playing loud enough I could hear them

might have been the only car there in a day or two

usually no one waiting in line
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 28, 2024, 05:33:53 PM
I used 45 cents per kWhr, versus 15 cents at home.  From what I can tell on line, this varies a lot of course but is probably near the median cost.

How Much Does It Cost to Charge an EV on a Road Trip? (investopedia.com) (https://www.investopedia.com/cost-to-charge-ev-road-trip-5219817)

I checked a number of sites on these costs and they all have wide ranges, 30-60 cents is a common one, so I used 45 cents.  An L2 charger is less expensive, and slower.

I don't know how much a single charge costs, I'm sure that varies widely, but when considering initial cost, any maintenance, going costs, profit,  I think 3x is not beyond the pale.
Yeah, and I'm not saying 3x doesn't exist. On a road trip, you NEED a fast charger and it's worth paying for it. If you can get by with L2, it can bring the cost down. 

I.e. I googled "average L2 charger rate in southern california" and this was the top result:

https://qmerit.com/blog/california-electrification-statistics/

Quote
California EV statistics reveal that operators charge an average of $0.20-$0.30 per kWh (https://driveclean.ca.gov/electric-car-charging) for public Level 2 EV charging stations and $0.40-$0.60 per kWh for DC Fast Charging (https://www.motortrend.com/features/how-much-does-it-cost-to-charge-an-electric-car-by-state/)


Which is in line with what you quoted for fast charging. But not the only option. It's the difference perhaps between 3x vs 1.5x. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 28, 2024, 07:37:42 PM
Fair point.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 29, 2024, 04:20:46 AM
Tesla's Cybertruck has a serious problem that only a complete redesign (fastcompany.com) (https://www.fastcompany.com/90945689/teslas-cybertruck-has-a-serious-problem-that-only-a-complete-redesign-can-fix?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=ppc&utm_campaign=keywee_RSS&kwp_0=2314753&kwp_4=6576479&kwp_1=2811965&fbclid=IwAR05iYght8A3dhKw61X4kh5RuLzitKPgbiruxqiU1ZM_gEFcYo3ddaa61eU_aem_Adu5b7Od-c3UzXjCYC2D0766FYZiIGHZsHB5S8UZAtv8vRjrH21ovTT2zbU7eyuoC-HqGcLxkaMcWsFZyqheBaFB)

The design, to me, looks gimmicky, but which I mean I don't understand any functionality associated with it.  It's a truck, to me it should be first functional, not in any way stylish if that detracts from the former.  Yes, I think it's ugly, but that's an aside.

I understand the other light trucks also meant to look decent, but at the expense of major function.  Someone might design a truck with little or no style and it probably wouldn't sell well overall, maybe as a pure work truck.  But this one seems to combine polarizing style, at best, with reduced functionality.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 29, 2024, 04:30:55 AM
2024 Tesla Cybertruck vs. Rivian R1T vs. Ford F-150 Lightning: The Only Comparison Test You'll Need (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2024-tesla-cybertruck-vs-rivian-r1t-vs-ford-f-150-lightning-comparison-test-review/?sm_id=paid%3Asm_id%3Afb%3Amtoo%3A24%3AOOtraffic%3Aarticle%3Am18-65us%3Aqq9zz0324mt1&utm_medium=paid&utm_source=fb&utm_id=6551903458436&utm_content=6565289742836&utm_term=6551903460436&utm_campaign=6551903458436&fbclid=IwAR1jO6yYDWc20JNbf17YW6cVFajJ3hTFyc-RRpLAcEfs7YdiptVWpbjUIcs_aem_AU-UKVd8kWaWp6RBTzZAoTQ2iL-7bTLgCGQWdzFSN2skbgWffXMLmTw2a6bOQHN9thujuAoq7GpJ5Mni18I2ARyD)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
Post by: Cincydawg on March 29, 2024, 05:04:13 AM
Ample is bringing the first-ever EV battery swap stations to Japan (electrek.co) (https://electrek.co/2024/03/28/ample-eneos-bringing-first-ev-battery-swap-stations-to-japan/?fbclid=IwAR0TqFyj6PFxOLI4GzBLUM2s9XHYXXU_BID1_FU-ZZGSUI18PKiOc7MNfKQ)

EV battery swap specialist Ample (https://electrek.co/guides/ample/) has announced it is bringing the first-ever modular swap stations to Japan with the help of partner ENEOS. The first Japanese swap stations will be erected in Kyoto and used by several local fleets.

Ample (https://ample.com/) is a California-based startup specializing in modular battery stations that are easy to install and move, all while occupying a minimal footprint. The company’s goal is to help enable 1 billion electric vehicles on roads worldwide someday.