Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

my 6.2 gasser ran great today with the 8-speed dual clutch tranny

I mean GREAT

I guy going to my golf course tried to lay back and get the jump on my at the stop light with his all-wheel drive Jeep with the 5.7 hemi

good times!

we had a nice talk in the parking lot

we decided I had experience

Thanks for bumping this thread, CD. I saw this story the other day and thought of your EV opinions...

https://insideevs.com/features/730299/hyundai-kona-dc-fast-charging-test/

The guy went two weeks with a Hyundai EV, traveling 1070 miles in that time, not charging at home, and not using DC fast chargers. I think it does a good job of pointing out a sort of middle ground that you may not have considered. "Public charging" is not some monolithic thing. And it meant that his charging was a LOT less expensive than if he'd used fast chargers (although more expensive than he'd have paid if charging at home).

And Adams is right; DC fast charging is expensive. To illustrate, let’s consider how much I spent on the Kona.

Over 14 days, and 1,070 miles, the Kona used 267 kWh worth of energy. I spent $61.86 total on charging for a rough average of $0.23 per kWh. About 167 kWh of that energy was done via Level 1 charging, at an average of $0.16 per kWh, while the rest was done at Level 2 public stations averaging out to $0.33 per kWh.

By comparison, if I had done all of my charging at a DC fast charger, I’d be paying at least $0.59 per kWh. My charging costs would have been at least $157, not including any fees or taxes. That’s not cheap at all, especially compared to a reasonably efficient gas-powered car that would use about the same amount of money in gas, to go the same distance.

He goes on to talk about how so many consumers think of the EV charging model trying to replicate the "gas station" model, which is "charge as fast as you can and get the hell on your way", and how that isn't the most economic way to own an EV and also isn't the most efficient way for the market to support EVs, where it might be better to build out a more robust Level 2 charging network.


I.e. if I'm going to go to a movie, I could be charging a car for ~2.5 hours on a L2 charger. A quick googling suggests that average charging speed for L2 is between 12-32 miles of charge added per hour. So in 2.5 hours, splitting to the midpoint of 20 miles per hour, you could add 50 miles of charge while at the movies.

If your work has a bank of L2 chargers in the parking lot and you're going to spend 8+ hours, you can probably get pretty close to going 10-80% on your battery while you're there. Maybe you only have to do that once a week to cover your commute and maybe top up on Friday for what you need over the weekend.

Is L2 slow? Yes. But is it suitable for a LOT of situations where speed isn't necessary? Also yes. And at considerable savings.

DC fast charging is maybe only really important on road trips, or if you're a SEVERE outlier who is driving 250+ miles per day and need to recharge quickly to continue whatever it is you're doing that requires so much driving.

Where can I reliably access L2 charging stations?

No clue. I don't have an EV, so I don't really look very hard. 

But I have a few examples that I've absolutely seen:

• My office parking structure
• Both of my local Target stores, in the parking lots
• Parking lots/structures at basically every local mall

Haven't you also said that they put in charging stations in your condo's parking garage, too? I'd probably put money on them being L2, not DC fast chargers. I don't know what your cost of charging would be there though. It wouldn't shock me at all if the company that installed them charges (pun intended) a premium knowing residents will use the chargers at their home out of convenience. 

If you really wanted to answer your own question, go to Plugshare.com. It asks you to register but I was able to generate the below map for chargers local to Mission Viejo just by closing the registration window, so you don't need to.



And if I set the filter for "Free Charging", I even see this:

Hmm. At that price it might be DC fast charging. Particularly if they only install two chargers.

Either way, Plugshare would also show you the charging price at some of the chargers listed. 

For example, here's one near you that gives you 3 hrs free. 

I imagine I can dick around and find cheaper charging options, like 3 hours free, great, but I really don't like that concept.  Three hours might be sufficient for how much we dirive, but it isn't very convenient for me, personally.  I'd probably use it at least some of the time.  I can drive there and walk home, or get a beer, or something.

The 25 cents fee is also "OK", but it's over in Atlantic Station, which is not really my favorite place to hang out.

And how many of these "free" stations are just doing that to get noticed, and then in a few months it's 48 cents?

Seems like the one bwar found is at a shopping complex.  So three hours would be very convenient for, say, my wife, who is incapable of spending fewer than 3 hours at a shopping complex.

I imagine I can dick around and find cheaper charging options, like 3 hours free, great, but I really don't like that concept.  Three hours might be sufficient for how much we dirive, but it isn't very convenient for me, personally.  I'd probably use it at least some of the time.  I can drive there and walk home, or get a beer, or something.

The 25 cents fee is also "OK", but it's over in Atlantic Station, which is not really my favorite place to hang out.

And how many of these "free" stations are just doing that to get noticed, and then in a few months it's 48 cents?

Yeah, and bear in mind I'm not trying to convince you of anything, and most CERTAINLY not that an EV is the right choice for you. I personally wouldn't buy one if I didn't have the ability to charge at home. I don't want to spend my time worrying about where to charge. I'd rather just charge in my garage. 

The reason I shared is that to an extent you make arguments about EVs from a place, quite frankly, of ignorance on the charging landscape. Which is completely understandable, because you have no incentive to learn all that you can about EV charging since you don't have nor are considering to buy an EV. If you assume that everyone is largely being forced into DC fast charging, the most expensive option, it gives you a skewed view of the economics. Likewise if you assume you can always find free charging, it gives an equally skewed view the other way. I thought it would offer a richer idea of the options that are out there. 

And Plugshare isn't even complete. I don't know if your condo is on there; I would assume that if it's private and restricted access, it might not be. My work's parking structure isn't on there either. You need a key card as an employee to gain access, so it wouldn't make sense to show it on a public site. So there might even be a LOT more charging available than what is even shown there. Again making the total charging landscape richer but more complex. 

But per your last question, I don't expect there to be a ton of free chargers forever, and I don't expect that those will suddenly become 48 cents. I believe free chargers are a way to get noticed--not that charging is available, but to get people to spend a couple hours somewhere that they might spend money. I.e. if you find a free charger but then buy an appetizer and two beers that you spent a lot more than eating lunch at home, is your charging really "free"? But overall once there are a LOT more EVs on the road, it won't make economic sense to offer free charging forever IMHO. 

My belief is that as the charging infrastructure matures, charging costs will largely be driven by the market to be based upon electricity costs and then a reasonable profit margin driven down by competition. I see a scenario where the market largely pushes L2 charging to a very similar range of price wherever you are within one geographic area, and L3 DC Fast Charging to a significantly higher range of price. Much as we currently see at gas stations. The price isn't the same at every station, but they tend to be within a similar range in any geographical area. 

My main point of course is that apartment dwellers should think about the cost of charging for them before buying.

On that we agree.