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Topic: Electric Vehicle News Items

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Cincydawg

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #2016 on: August 07, 2024, 12:11:07 PM »
The Tuscon has regen braking, and no, I don't want a new car anyway, I am more thinking about others in my situation who do.

They could buy a PHEV in California and perhaps come out ahead.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #2017 on: August 07, 2024, 12:14:01 PM »
If we hit a tipping point with solid state batteries where the powertrain becomes cheaper than ICEV for "adequate" range, AND we see charge rates that are close to parity with filling your gas tank, that's the tipping point where BEVs will see extremely rapid adoption IMHO. It will be significant savings for anyone who can charge at home off the grid, and close to equivalent cost for those who can't, potentially better if they can make use of slower[/cheaper] public L2 chargers rather than rapid chargers.
This, exactly.  

Your other comments about range vs efficiency vs acceleration are issues that I think will be sorted out by the market.  Some users will want lots of range, others will want maximum efficiency, others will want the excitement of acceleration.  Some of that simply depends on where you live.  If you are in densely populated SoCal then range might not be a big deal since there are chargers everywhere but if you live in Eastern Montana range would probably be your #1 concern because there might only be half a dozen public chargers within a 500 mile radius.  

Cincydawg

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #2018 on: August 07, 2024, 12:27:58 PM »
By the time an EV has this battery I suspect chargers will be a lot more available.

This presumes the battery has no "issues".  

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #2019 on: August 07, 2024, 01:20:26 PM »
This, exactly. 

Your other comments about range vs efficiency vs acceleration are issues that I think will be sorted out by the market.  Some users will want lots of range, others will want maximum efficiency, others will want the excitement of acceleration.  Some of that simply depends on where you live.  If you are in densely populated SoCal then range might not be a big deal since there are chargers everywhere but if you live in Eastern Montana range would probably be your #1 concern because there might only be half a dozen public chargers within a 500 mile radius. 
Agreed. I think a lot of the initial push for acceleration (driven by Tesla) was due to two things. First, in order to get car buyers excited about BEVs, they needed a differentiating factor. Instant torque and near-supercar acceleration is absolutely that. Second, Elon Musk is an overgrown man-child, and so he wants fast 0-60 numbers. 

I think the rest of the market, as it matures, has gotten to the point where acceleration is good, but it doesn't HAVE to be a sub-4.0 0-60 time to excite a buyer. Most buyers don't need that and aren't willing to pay extra for it. You can have the advantages of EV (instant low-end torque, merging power, passing power, etc) but don't need blistering rates. 

Same thing with range. The big concern for many people was range anxiety. I think for a lot of people worried about that, they opted for PHEV. But for those who could charge at home, I think many of them realized they'd go months between needing to fill that gas tank, and started to realize that 200-300 miles of BEV range was MORE than enough for use. So IMHO all this talk about Samsung and the "600 mile range" battery doesn't mean that BEV makers are going to start making vehicles with 600 miles of range. It's too expensive, and most people don't need it. 

The people who live out in Eastern Montana who need 600 miles of range, or people like utee who regularly tow large loads, are outliers. Maybe a BEV won't work for those people. But they're a small portion of the population, which over decades in the US has increasingly urbanized anyway. So while I don't think their needs should be ignored, it's also not necessarily something that I think will meaningfully brake EV adoption for the masses. 

By the time an EV has this battery I suspect chargers will be a lot more available.

This presumes the battery has no "issues". 
I agree. Chargers will continue to be built and installed. 

I should point out that I'm thinking of a future where the $/kWh of battery tech drops enough that BEV is equivalent or cheaper than a comparable ICEV. I don't expect this to happen soon. If the first commercialized solid state batteries don't really hit the market until 2027, and are a highly expensive niche product, one can't expect a BEV price crossover by 2030. Maybe not even 2035. 

If I think about this purely as a wild assed guess (WAG), I could see a crossover point between 2035-2040. That said, as prices narrow and as charging infrastructure becomes more robust nationwide, I expect adoption to be slowly increasing between now and then. I don't think that it's so much of a "tipping point" that everyone will hold off until 2038 and then suddenly switch. 

I think as we see now, people who are more affluent, can charge at home, and who can have one BEV for a multi-car family while the other is an ICEV, are already starting to adopt it. People who live in single family homes (detached or attached) I think are ~70% of the US population based on the numbers I quoted a few weeks back? So that's already a huge addressable market.

Cincydawg

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #2020 on: August 07, 2024, 02:05:25 PM »
I would agree with that.  I have come to think PHEVs are the transitional form, as it were, and could well be the most common type of new vehicle sold in the US by ~2035.

We will start seeing "supercars" and light trucks as PHEVs.  Folks will begin to accept them as normal, and useful, not weird.  And you can charge them with 110v.


betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #2021 on: August 07, 2024, 02:57:06 PM »
I would agree with that.  I have come to think PHEVs are the transitional form, as it were, and could well be the most common type of new vehicle sold in the US by ~2035.

We will start seeing "supercars" and light trucks as PHEVs.  Folks will begin to accept them as normal, and useful, not weird.  And you can charge them with 110v.
I disagree. Again going back to my own world (data storage), as it relates to PCs, in the early days of SSDs, they were fast but expensive, and HDDs were slow but cheap. So we had a bright idea... Let's put a little bit of flash storage on an HDD to speed it up via caching commonly-read data. Best of both worlds, right! Nope. Added cost but didn't add enough performance to be worth it. Ended up sorta the worst of both worlds. 

I think PHEV is like that. You'd think it's the best of both worlds. BEV when you need it around town, and gas engine for longer trips. Wonderful! But instead, I think it ends up being a problem. You now have the cost of two separate powertrains. You now have the maintenance costs and mechanical reliability issues of two separate powertrains. You still have to have SOME infrastructure to charge it, even if it's only L1/110V. 

I think for the majority of owners, the answer is going to be one or the other. If BEV is right for you, BEV is right for you. If ICEV is right for you, ICEV is right for you. Things like non-plugin hybrids are the middle ground IMHO. PHEV are a weird halfway point which IMHO ends up being the worst of both worlds, not the best. 

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #2022 on: August 07, 2024, 03:27:19 PM »
I disagree. Again going back to my own world (data storage), as it relates to PCs, in the early days of SSDs, they were fast but expensive, and HDDs were slow but cheap. So we had a bright idea... Let's put a little bit of flash storage on an HDD to speed it up via caching commonly-read data. Best of both worlds, right! Nope. Added cost but didn't add enough performance to be worth it. Ended up sorta the worst of both worlds.

I think PHEV is like that. You'd think it's the best of both worlds. BEV when you need it around town, and gas engine for longer trips. Wonderful! But instead, I think it ends up being a problem. You now have the cost of two separate powertrains. You now have the maintenance costs and mechanical reliability issues of two separate powertrains. You still have to have SOME infrastructure to charge it, even if it's only L1/110V.

I think for the majority of owners, the answer is going to be one or the other. If BEV is right for you, BEV is right for you. If ICEV is right for you, ICEV is right for you. Things like non-plugin hybrids are the middle ground IMHO. PHEV are a weird halfway point which IMHO ends up being the worst of both worlds, not the best.
I think a lot of this depends on how successful and practical the solid state batteries with rapid charging end up being.  

With currently available tech, I'd be interested in a PHEV.  I  also think, as we've discussed that this is a really good idea from an engineering standpoint.  My example:
I have four kids so I drive a Suburban.  I didn't buy new due to the odd situation but if I had, I'd have bought one outfitted with the optional 3.0L Turbo Diesel.  There are three engine options and if you get it with 4WD they get:
  • 3.0L Turbo Diesel:  20 City, 26 Highway, costs $2,550 per year to fuel*.  
  • 5.3L Gas:  15 City, 18 Highway, costs $3,250 per year to fuel.  
  • 6.2L Gas:  14 City, 18 Highway, costs $4,050 per year to fuel.  

The per year figures are from the EPA and are based on 45% City, 55% Highway at 15k/yr and current fuel prices.  That isn't exact for me but it is close enough to be a good gauge.  

The base engine is the 5.3L Gas V8.  The Turbo Diesel is a $900 option.  According to the EPA's figures that pays for itself in just over a year.  It would be a no-brainer for me due to the short payoff time.  I wouldn't even consider the 6.2L Gas V8.  It might be necessary if you are towing a LOT or something but not for me.  

I think that you could reconfigure this thing but cutting that 3.0L I6 Turbo Diesel in half (Yes, I realize it isn't actually that simple) and pushing it with a 1.5L I3 Turbo-Diesel with battery assist.  If I were ordering the design I'd probably look for around a 100 mi battery-only range.  Then  I'd set up the vehicle as a PHEV where most owners could handle their daily commute on battery only and if you went on a trip you wouldn't have to worry about range anxiety because the Diesel would have enough power to charge when idling or coasting downhill and the battery would assist for things like accelerating, merging, uphill, etc.  My WAG is that Highway mileage would improve but only slightly but City mileage would improve dramatically even without considering the plug-in aspect because you wouldn't be wasting much power.  

There are two main reasons I wouldn't currently want an electric-only vehicle right now and they both have to do with trips:
  • I wouldn't want to have to plan my trip around charger availability, and
  • I wouldn't want to have to stop for a long time to recharge every so often.  
The first will mitigate as chargers proliferate.  The second appears to be solved by this new tech.  

If I could buy an electric-only Suburban equivalent with ~400 mi range and 15 minute charging, that is as good as the current ICE version (range is ~450 for the gas engine  and ~616 for the Diesel with refueling probably taking ~10 minutes).  Then I wouldn't need the PHEV and could go full electric.  


Cincydawg

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #2023 on: August 07, 2024, 03:39:57 PM »
I suspect we may see some PHEVs offering only 10-15 miles of electric range to meet CA standards, and also be fine for a lot of folks.

Your 1.5 L turbo Diesel might be good for just turning a generator.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #2024 on: August 07, 2024, 03:57:16 PM »
I think that you could reconfigure this thing but cutting that 3.0L I6 Turbo Diesel in half (Yes, I realize it isn't actually that simple) and pushing it with a 1.5L I3 Turbo-Diesel with battery assist.  If I were ordering the design I'd probably look for around a 100 mi battery-only range.  Then  I'd set up the vehicle as a PHEV where most owners could handle their daily commute on battery only and if you went on a trip you wouldn't have to worry about range anxiety because the Diesel would have enough power to charge when idling or coasting downhill and the battery would assist for things like accelerating, merging, uphill, etc.  My WAG is that Highway mileage would improve but only slightly but City mileage would improve dramatically even without considering the plug-in aspect because you wouldn't be wasting much power. 
How many batteries do you think you need to get 100 mi of battery-only range on a giant Suburban? How much additional cost and weight is that in the vehicle? 

Let's compare to a Rivian R1S, a slightly heavier but moderately comparable size to a Suburban. The smallest battery pack on the Rivian is 105 kWh, and gets you 260 mi of range. 

We'll go with a battery pack cost at $120/kWh. If we assume any sort of linearity, 100mi of range would require about a 40 kWh battery pack. 

Which is nice numerically, because that means that just in battery pack you're adding almost exactly $5K to the cost of the vehicle. Good round number. 

Then you need two electric motors (if you want AWD as you suggest). And charging. And all the other stuff that you need for a PHEV. On top of all the stuff that's STILL THERE for the ICE powertrain. 

How long do you think it'll take to get back to break-even on gas savings (given that you still have to pay for electricity)?

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #2025 on: August 07, 2024, 04:55:40 PM »
How many batteries do you think you need to get 100 mi of battery-only range on a giant Suburban? How much additional cost and weight is that in the vehicle?

Let's compare to a Rivian R1S, a slightly heavier but moderately comparable size to a Suburban. The smallest battery pack on the Rivian is 105 kWh, and gets you 260 mi of range.

We'll go with a battery pack cost at $120/kWh. If we assume any sort of linearity, 100mi of range would require about a 40 kWh battery pack.

Which is nice numerically, because that means that just in battery pack you're adding almost exactly $5K to the cost of the vehicle. Good round number.

Then you need two electric motors (if you want AWD as you suggest). And charging. And all the other stuff that you need for a PHEV. On top of all the stuff that's STILL THERE for the ICE powertrain.

How long do you think it'll take to get back to break-even on gas savings (given that you still have to pay for electricity)?
Oh I get it.  That is why PHEV is limited but until we have charging times in the neighborhood of refueling times I just don't see full electric as a viable option for a lot of people.  

To answer in a little more depth though, you'd need the added cost and weight of battery and generator but you'd also save the cost and weight of half of the engine, the transmission, and the driveshaft so there is at least some offset.  I'm sure it would end up costing more but if you could knock that $2,550 annual fuel cost down by say a third you'd have ~$800/yr in savings.  I said earlier that the $900 for the Diesel was a no-brainer for me because it pays off in just over a year.  If you could save me $800 in annual fuel costs  I'd probably pay around $4,000 for that based on it paying for itself in five years.  I *could* go higher as I'd expect to keep the vehicle for more like 10-12 years.  

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #2026 on: August 07, 2024, 05:51:53 PM »
Oh I get it.  That is why PHEV is limited but until we have charging times in the neighborhood of refueling times I just don't see full electric as a viable option for a lot of people. 

To answer in a little more depth though, you'd need the added cost and weight of battery and generator but you'd also save the cost and weight of half of the engine, the transmission, and the driveshaft so there is at least some offset.  I'm sure it would end up costing more but if you could knock that $2,550 annual fuel cost down by say a third you'd have ~$800/yr in savings.  I said earlier that the $900 for the Diesel was a no-brainer for me because it pays off in just over a year.  If you could save me $800 in annual fuel costs  I'd probably pay around $4,000 for that based on it paying for itself in five years.  I *could* go higher as I'd expect to keep the vehicle for more like 10-12 years. 
I just find it unlikely you're going to get a Suburban PHEV for a $4K adder. That's the adder for a Prius Prime PHEV over a standard Prius. And the Prius Prime is obviously MUCH smaller than a Suburban (a little over half the weight) and only offers 33 miles of battery range. 

So, yeah, if you could get a Suburban PHEV for not that much more than a Suburban, it would be a good idea. But I don't think such a vehicle could economically exist. 

FearlessF

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #2027 on: August 07, 2024, 10:37:33 PM »
I'll just wait and see

I did see another Ford Lightning today in Ankeny
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Cincydawg

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #2028 on: August 08, 2024, 11:35:08 AM »
A smaller Diesel should cost less, probably not half as much.  That would pay for some of the PHEV part, but not all of it.

A nice thing about certain kinds of PHEVs is IF the only thing moving the wheels is the electric motor, you don't have to have a transmission with gears.  You can have two motors and AWD.  The Diesel engine would only run a generator as needed.  We don't have this yet though Dodge has proposed such a thing with a gas engine.

I'm interested in the perspective that PHEVs have the "worst of both worlds", I can see that as being possible.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #2029 on: August 10, 2024, 10:58:23 AM »

I'm interested in the perspective that PHEVs have the "worst of both worlds", I can see that as being possible.
Saw this and it's one example. 

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a61826413/toyota-prius-prime-plug-in-hybrid-slow-ev-acceleration-test/

 

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