header pic

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


Author

Topic: Electric Vehicle News Items

 (Read 239777 times)

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 82482
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #2002 on: August 07, 2024, 06:55:31 AM »


Hmmm ....

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 45432
  • Liked:
Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #2003 on: August 07, 2024, 07:41:13 AM »
Samsung Soonert?
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

utee94

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 22169
  • Liked:
Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #2004 on: August 07, 2024, 08:51:10 AM »
I miss that guy.

847badgerfan

  • Administrator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 31042
  • Liked:
Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #2005 on: August 07, 2024, 09:03:20 AM »
We all do.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 14495
  • Liked:
Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #2006 on: August 07, 2024, 10:39:34 AM »


Hmmm ....
Did a quick read. Promising. Very promising. The fact that these have already been built and delivered to customers for testing is a big milestone in any new technology introduction. It means it's not just a lab demonstration of concept, but an actual real thing. That means it's beyond the vaporware stage. 

The wet blanket of course is timeline, and cost. From the article I read, they're not looking to mass production until 2027, and due to high production costs (and I'm sure the commensurate low volume), it'll be limited to "super premium" EVs. 

But progress is progress. 

utee94

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 22169
  • Liked:
Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #2007 on: August 07, 2024, 10:52:37 AM »
Did a quick read. Promising. Very promising. The fact that these have already been built and delivered to customers for testing is a big milestone in any new technology introduction. It means it's not just a lab demonstration of concept, but an actual real thing. That means it's beyond the vaporware stage.

The wet blanket of course is timeline, and cost. From the article I read, they're not looking to mass production until 2027, and due to high production costs (and I'm sure the commensurate low volume), it'll be limited to "super premium" EVs.

But progress is progress.
Agree this is one of the more promising reads I've seen in a long time wrt battery tech. 

Large scale adoption economies of scale will invariably bring the price down but as always, there's a floor on such things in battery tech simply due to the laws of physics and the availability of raw materials.

betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 14495
  • Liked:
Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #2008 on: August 07, 2024, 11:06:33 AM »
Agree this is one of the more promising reads I've seen in a long time wrt battery tech. 

Large scale adoption economies of scale will invariably bring the price down but as always, there's a floor on such things in battery tech simply due to the laws of physics and the availability of raw materials.
Yep, but one of the things with introducing very new technology is that you often don't know what you don't know until you start to get into the productization phase. But once you get there (and you have multiple competing producers), the advancement of the technology happens much more quickly. 

It's the basic technology s-curve idea. We're probably getting pretty far on the right side of the traditional lithium ion s-curve, bumping up against the limits of energy density. Solid state is the start of a new s-curve, but until you get out of the lab and into producing products you don't hit the steep part of the slope. 

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 82482
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #2009 on: August 07, 2024, 11:11:52 AM »
My issue is unrelated to battery stuff of course.  I don't know how it can be fixed.

medinabuckeye1

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 10619
  • Liked:
Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #2010 on: August 07, 2024, 11:24:47 AM »
Did a quick read. Promising. Very promising. The fact that these have already been built and delivered to customers for testing is a big milestone in any new technology introduction. It means it's not just a lab demonstration of concept, but an actual real thing. That means it's beyond the vaporware stage.

The wet blanket of course is timeline, and cost. From the article I read, they're not looking to mass production until 2027, and due to high production costs (and I'm sure the commensurate low volume), it'll be limited to "super premium" EVs.

But progress is progress.
Agree this is one of the more promising reads I've seen in a long time wrt battery tech. 

Large scale adoption economies of scale will invariably bring the price down but as always, there's a floor on such things in battery tech simply due to the laws of physics and the availability of raw materials.
Yep, but one of the things with introducing very new technology is that you often don't know what you don't know until you start to get into the productization phase. But once you get there (and you have multiple competing producers), the advancement of the technology happens much more quickly.

It's the basic technology s-curve idea. We're probably getting pretty far on the right side of the traditional lithium ion s-curve, bumping up against the limits of energy density. Solid state is the start of a new s-curve, but until you get out of the lab and into producing products you don't hit the steep part of the slope.
I agree with all of this.  The stats listed basically meet or exceed modern ICE:
  • 600 mi range is on the high side for ICE vehicles
  • 9 minute charging sounds about equivalent to a stop at the gas station
  • 20 year life is more-or-less equivalent to ICE vehicles.  Ie, by that age most vehicles will be wearing out elsewhere so the battery dying isn't THAT big of a deal, you'd need a new one anyway.  
Unlike current tech, I think this could actually replace ICE for nearly all users rather than being a niche thing that is ok for some consumers and/or fine as one vehicle for a multi-car family.  


betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 14495
  • Liked:
Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #2011 on: August 07, 2024, 11:34:36 AM »
My issue is unrelated to battery stuff of course.  I don't know how it can be fixed.
It can be fixed if the charge times, efficiency, and cost all improve "enough". As I understand it, your critical hold-up is the cost (and perhaps time) of charging away from home. Well there are multiple ways that can be alleviated:

  • Charge rates: Charge rates of solid state batteries are faster. For example if you can go from 10-80% in 9 minutes, that's close enough to on par with filling up a gas tank that one of the critical concerns with away-from-home or road trip charging is no longer a concern. Also when charge times are so fast, it alleviates range anxiety. 
  • Efficiency: Solid state batteries are more energy dense. While some talk about the idea of "600 mile range", the opposite way of looking at this is that you can have a car with a 300 mile range, fast-charge capability, and a much lighter battery pack. Reducing vehicle weight will go a long way to improving efficiency, as measured by how much range you get per kWh of electricity. So you get more miles out of the same amount of money spent on public charging than today's EVs.  
  • Acquisition cost: Here is the harder aspect, and the least well known. When you look at BEVs, you're looking at them being more expensive than ICEVs today for a comparable vehicle, so even if the "fueling" of the car is saving you money, you have a higher initial expenditure to recoup over time (which is much harder if you rely on 100% public charging networks). However, although solid state batteries TODAY are much more expensive, this may come down closer to parity over time--and because they're much more energy dense, you can have smaller battery packs to achieve the same range. So again instead of paying more than today's EV price for a 600-mile range vehicle, you may end up paying less than today's EV price with the new technology for a 300-mile range vehicle. Depending on how the technology matures, at some point it may cross to be cheaper than an ICEV. Now even if "fueling" is a wash between public chargers vs gas stations, you're saving money buying a less expensive BEV than a comparable ICEV. 


We've seen this in my industry. In the PC world, HDDs have been eclipsed by SSDs. Why? Because while HDDs are actually still MUCH cheaper on a $/TB basis when you're talking about large-scale data center acquisitions, most PC users don't need terabytes of local storage. They need maybe 250-500GB of local storage, and MANY can get by with smaller, say 120GB. The issue with an HDD is that there's a certain floor of cost that you can't get below, and that floor today is at a capacity point (1TB) beyond what most users need. So while SSDs are still "more expensive" than HDDs on a $/TB basis, if you don't need the minimum capacity of an HDD, the actual $/unit cost can be lower. When you then add in the other advantages of SSD in a PC environment (higher performance, lower power, smaller size, less weight, no moving parts, no noise, etc), it then becomes an easy decision, and it's why HDDs simply do not ship in notebooks and desktop computers any longer except in very rare applications. 

If we hit a tipping point with solid state batteries where the powertrain becomes cheaper than ICEV for "adequate" range, AND we see charge rates that are close to parity with filling your gas tank, that's the tipping point where BEVs will see extremely rapid adoption IMHO. It will be significant savings for anyone who can charge at home off the grid, and close to equivalent cost for those who can't, potentially better if they can make use of slower[/cheaper] public L2 chargers rather than rapid chargers. 

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 82482
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #2012 on: August 07, 2024, 11:35:49 AM »
Let's presume all that happens, and an EV is the same cost, to me, as the ICE car I'd like to own, probably the EV would have better acceleration.

Let's say the average cost for ME is 40 cents per kWhr, and it takes 25 of them to go 100 miles.  Obviously, that's $10.  My current vehicle will use about 3 gallons per 100 miles, and my last fillup was under $3 per at Costco ($2.85).  It looks to me like a MAJOR issue for apartment dwellers, and I don't see a fix other than subsidies and credits.  Then I'd probably also be paying extra at tag time as well.

betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 14495
  • Liked:
Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #2013 on: August 07, 2024, 11:41:58 AM »
Let's presume all that happens, and an EV is the same cost, to me, as the ICE car I'd like to own, probably the EV would have better acceleration.

Let's say the average cost for ME is 40 cents per kWhr, and it takes 25 of them to go 100 miles.  Obviously, that's $10.  My current vehicle will use about 3 gallons per 100 miles, and my last fillup was under $3 per at Costco ($2.85).  It looks to me like a MAJOR issue for apartment dwellers, and I don't see a fix other than subsidies and credits.  Then I'd probably also be paying extra at tag time as well.
But what if the reduction in weight for the battery pack means that the EV that today takes 25 kWh to go 100 miles only takes 20, or maybe even 15? If it's 20 kWh, now you're only spending $8/100mi. If 15, now you're spending $6/100mi, compared to $8.55/100mi for ICEV.

That to me is the big advantage of reducing the battery pack weight, which is something that solid state can give you. 

Oh, and reducing battery pack weight also improves acceleration. So you can either get more acceleration from the same size electric motor, or you can go to a smaller, lighter, less costly electric motor and maintain the same acceleration. 

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 82482
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #2014 on: August 07, 2024, 11:52:19 AM »
Maybe so, good point, but "break even" isn't enough to sway me really, I'd need an advantage, at $6 I'd start to consider it.  And we'll see how many kWhrs a new vehicle will need, some of this of course is just normal resistance and can't easily be changed.

I picked 40 cents, the average for the unit downstairs is 48 cents.  

Our Tuscon is not very aerodynamic, I notice mpgs really drop when the speed goes above 75.

betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 14495
  • Liked:
Re: Electric Vehicle News Items
« Reply #2015 on: August 07, 2024, 12:05:27 PM »
Maybe so, good point, but "break even" isn't enough to sway me really, I'd need an advantage, at $6 I'd start to consider it.  And we'll see how many kWhrs a new vehicle will need, some of this of course is just normal resistance and can't easily be changed.

I picked 40 cents, the average for the unit downstairs is 48 cents. 

Our Tuscon is not very aerodynamic, I notice mpgs really drop when the speed goes above 75.
Honestly, you have a new car. There's no reason for you to consider replacement for several years, at least. 

And you say you drive what, 6K mi/yr? I don't think fueling costs should really sway you anyway. At 33 mpg and $2.85/gal that's 181 gallons per year, and works out to $518. At 25 kWh/100mi that's 1500 kWh to go 6000 miles, and at .40 per it's $600. Even at .48 per it's $720. Is $200/year difference enough to sway you on a vehicle choice? 

(BTW with EVs you also avoid a fair bit of maintenance, in that they don't require oil changes and don't chew up your brakes as significantly by using regen braking--so those are other savings that are beyond fueling costs.)

 

Support the Site!
Purchase of every item listed here DIRECTLY supports the site.