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Topic: Breaking up Bama: How to save college football?

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FearlessF

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Re: Breaking up Bama: How to save college football?
« Reply #112 on: January 20, 2021, 11:54:06 AM »
College was never meant to be a vocational school and it serves VERY poorly in that function.

We need to change the expectation that every child must go to college.  We need to start branching people into vocations at a younger age and remove the stigmas associated with that.  Many European countries do this quite successfully.

We also need to reform the skyrocketing tuition costs and the financial institutions and models in place that enable them, but that's a completely different problem.
as we all know....  some of these kids don't have many opportunities.  Not even to attend vocations.

for some kids, sports is their best chance to be noticed and have a decent opportunity for a better life.

that's all I was getting at
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847badgerfan

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Re: Breaking up Bama: How to save college football?
« Reply #113 on: January 20, 2021, 11:56:49 AM »
as we all know....  some of these kids don't have many opportunities.  Not even to attend vocations.

for some kids, sports is their best chance to be noticed and have a decent opportunity for a better life.

that's all I was getting at
So they think. The numbers say otherwise.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Breaking up Bama: How to save college football?
« Reply #114 on: January 20, 2021, 12:00:28 PM »
So they think. The numbers say otherwise.
Basically the same as poor people buying lottery tickets.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Breaking up Bama: How to save college football?
« Reply #115 on: January 20, 2021, 12:01:26 PM »
There is no reason why it should not be real in practice. We spend more on education (pensions) per child than almost every other country, and get bad performance. This needs to change.
Do you just actively dislike teachers?
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Cincydawg

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Re: Breaking up Bama: How to save college football?
« Reply #116 on: January 20, 2021, 12:03:19 PM »
I see no evidence of any active dislike of teachers in that post.

Perhaps you could point it out?

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Breaking up Bama: How to save college football?
« Reply #117 on: January 20, 2021, 12:09:43 PM »
The education system (you know, teaching and learning) has been bastardized by many things, but 2 that don't get a lot of attention are:
1 - multiple choice questions, and
2 - parents changing their allegiance from generally siding with the teacher to now siding with their child 
.
I specified "multiple choice questions" because if I had said standardized testing, some of you would have gone off-course and assumed I had a problem with testing, which I don't.  It's not the testing that is the problem, it's the scantron-need-results-right-now aspect that is the problem.  
Multiple choice questions, for someone with no idea of what the answer is, artificially inflates their score from 0 to 25%.  Add in the fact that a vast majority of non-state/national multiple choice answers have an obvious wrong answer, and that bumps it up to 50%.  It's garbage.
If you don't know something, you shouldn't have a 50/50 shot at getting the question right.  It's a gradual dumbing-down of our students and society.  
.
The parents thing - I don't know what caused it, but over the years, it's so real.  In the past, the teacher and parent would basically tell the kid "tough shit, do better," but now, it's the teacher always treading lightly and the school district moving heaven and earth not to get sued.  
Again, it's garbage.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Breaking up Bama: How to save college football?
« Reply #118 on: January 20, 2021, 12:10:15 PM »
I see no evidence of any active dislike of teachers in that post.

Perhaps you could point it out?
A compilation of posts from him over time.  No, I'm not going to spend hours seeking them out.
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Cincydawg

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Re: Breaking up Bama: How to save college football?
« Reply #119 on: January 20, 2021, 12:18:34 PM »
Well, I suspect most of us believe our educational system SHOULD be better than it is.  That isn't somehow a knock on teachers of course.  Some no doubt are inferior.

I don't know how to fix it.  The European model might be worth closer consideration.  They stream their students VERY early.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Breaking up Bama: How to save college football?
« Reply #120 on: January 20, 2021, 12:32:57 PM »
Do you just actively dislike teachers?
I think teachers are great. They do a job that I simply could not do. It's not for lack of education or ability, but a lack of patience. I'd lose my mind in the first week--probably the first half day. 

That said, I think our educational system has been captured by the teachers union, leading to a system that isn't particularly good for good teachers, and isn't particularly good for students. 

We simply have not made any meaningful effort to measure teacher ability and effectiveness. Standardized tests isn't it, because too often in a lot of schools it's garbage in, garbage out. If you get a class of dullards in September, they're not going to be brilliant in May, no matter how good of a teacher you are. So teachers [understandably] don't want to be rated on the failures of teachers from previous grades. And to an extent, you then get to a "teaching to the test" mentality rather than trying to actually give students meaningful information and skills. 

Since we don't have meaningful measures of effectiveness, then, the teachers unions tends to reward seniority, credentialism, and checking boxes like "continuing education". It doesn't matter if a teacher is coasting through 20 years of burnout, if they've got the seniority and have been checking those boxes for the past 20 years they'll have better salary, priority in the event of and staff reductions, than the 28-year-old bright eyed teacher that connects with students and makes them excited to show up and class and learn. 

Ideally we'd love to see something like sports WAR as a metric for teachers' effectiveness, wins above replacement. But we don't have anything like that, and the teachers union doesn't want it. 

Calling out problems in the system, a system that protects ineffective teachers and does little to reward the truly outstanding teachers, isn't a dislike of teachers. 

847badgerfan

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Re: Breaking up Bama: How to save college football?
« Reply #121 on: January 20, 2021, 12:35:28 PM »
I think teachers are great. They do a job that I simply could not do. It's not for lack of education or ability, but a lack of patience. I'd lose my mind in the first week--probably the first half day.

That said, I think our educational system has been captured by the teachers union, leading to a system that isn't particularly good for good teachers, and isn't particularly good for students.

We simply have not made any meaningful effort to measure teacher ability and effectiveness. Standardized tests isn't it, because too often in a lot of schools it's garbage in, garbage out. If you get a class of dullards in September, they're not going to be brilliant in May, no matter how good of a teacher you are. So teachers [understandably] don't want to be rated on the failures of teachers from previous grades. And to an extent, you then get to a "teaching to the test" mentality rather than trying to actually give students meaningful information and skills.

Since we don't have meaningful measures of effectiveness, then, the teachers unions tends to reward seniority, credentialism, and checking boxes like "continuing education". It doesn't matter if a teacher is coasting through 20 years of burnout, if they've got the seniority and have been checking those boxes for the past 20 years they'll have better salary, priority in the event of and staff reductions, than the 28-year-old bright eyed teacher that connects with students and makes them excited to show up and class and learn.

Ideally we'd love to see something like sports WAR as a metric for teachers' effectiveness, wins above replacement. But we don't have anything like that, and the teachers union doesn't want it.

Calling out problems in the system, a system that protects ineffective teachers and does little to reward the truly outstanding teachers, isn't a dislike of teachers.
This.
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Breaking up Bama: How to save college football?
« Reply #122 on: January 20, 2021, 12:49:14 PM »
Another way to think about it...

It's entirely consistent to support the troops while disagreeing with the mission they're being asked to do. 

Thinking there's a lot of rot in our educational system doesn't make you anti-teacher, even though that's the unfair charge leveled by the educational establishment if you speak out against it. Likewise, stating your opinion that a particular war or military engagement is unnecessary, counter-productive, or just plain bad policy doesn't mean you are anti-soldier, even though that's the unfair charge leveled by the politicians/commentators in favor of that particular war or military engagement. 

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Breaking up Bama: How to save college football?
« Reply #123 on: January 20, 2021, 01:02:41 PM »
College was never meant to be a vocational school and it serves VERY poorly in that function.

We need to change the expectation that every child must go to college.  We need to start branching people into vocations at a younger age and remove the stigmas associated with that.  Many European countries do this quite successfully.

We also need to reform the skyrocketing tuition costs and the financial institutions and models in place that enable them, but that's a completely different problem.
This, 100%.  

We have this stupid Yale or Jail false dichotomy that we get stuck on and it hurts us immensely.  If you look at the stats, something like 3/4 of HS graduates go to college but only about 1/3 of working adults are college grads.  The rest of those HS seniors who go to college get nothing but debt out of it.  

I think this started when the baby-bust generation (me) got to college age.  The colleges had expanded to take all the baby boomers and then they had to lower standards to keep the slots full.  Now nearly everybody goes to college but literally most of them are wasting their time.  They would be vastly better off to learn a trade.  

FearlessF

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"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

FearlessF

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Re: Breaking up Bama: How to save college football?
« Reply #125 on: January 20, 2021, 01:04:27 PM »
So they think. The numbers say otherwise.
yes, the numbers are similar to winning the lottery, but for those very few, it's a very good story
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

 

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