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Topic: B1G academics, and who I *THINK* additional new members will be

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medinabuckeye1

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The CIC, as I understand it, consists of the B1G athletic conference schools (soon to include USC and UCLA) along with the University of Chicago which was a charter member of what became the B1G but ceased competing in the league athletically prior to WWII.  

Here are those 17 schools with their rankings on two academic measures.  The first "2020 rank" and "2020 spend" are straightforward, objective, and clearly quantifiable.  I got the research spending amounts and rankings from this site.  The next column is simply these 17 schools ranked compared to one-another from #1 Michigan through #17 Nebraska.  

For the second academic measure I used the USNWR rankings.  These are more tilted toward undergraduate academics but the list is also inherently subjective.  They rank Princeton #1 and Harvard #2 but obviously you could make an argument for the reverse.  Similarly, Chicago at #6 nationally is the highest ranked in the CIC with #9 Northwestern second, #20 UCLA third, and #23 Michigan fourth and you could argue Northwestern over Chicago or Michigan over UCLA.  

These are sorted by the gap between each school's research ranking and their USNWR ranking.  The first school listed is Minnesota.  They are 20th nationally and fifth in the CIC with 2020 research spending over a little over a Billion Dollars while they are tied with Indiana for 68th nationally and 8th in the CIC in the USNWR rankings.  Ie, Minnesota is MUCH better academically when judged based on graduate research programs than when judged based on undergraduate rankings.  Last on the list is the University of Chicago which is a premier undergraduate institution (best in the CIC, #6 nationally) but a less impressive 57th nationally and 16th in the CIC in research spending.  

I would divide this into three groups:

The first group consisting of MN, UMD, PSU, MSU, and IU are MUCH more impressive based on research spending than they are based on undergraduate rankings.  

The middle group consisting of M, UW, tOSU, UCLA, IA, UNL, RU, and USC are roughly equally impressive or unimpressive on both metrics.  They range from Michigan and UCLA which are near the top in both down to UNL which is last in the CIC in both.  

The third group consisting of IL, PU, NU, and UC are much more impressive based on undergraduate rankings than they are based on research spending.  

All this talk about academics isn't just because the B1G Schools, administrators, alums, and fans want to feel superior to other leagues, this is about money too.  We hear that our schools stand to make ~$100 Million/year from media rights for sports.  Ok, Michigan spent sixteen times that on research in 2020.  Even lowly Nebraska spent more than 3x that figure on research in 2020.  The CIC institutions taken together spent more than $15 BILLION on research in 2020.  

This is counter-intuitive to most sports fans but frankly the money to be made from selling media rights for sports is chump change compared to the money that CIC member institutions spend on research.  At the end of the day, research revenue is more important because it is a LOT more money.  

Lets talk about additions:
Notre Dame:
They are the elephant in the room so lets go there first.  Academically they frankly are not a good fit for the B1G.  Notre Dame fans and alums usually go apoplectic when I say this but the simple fact is that Notre Dame doesn't have the academics to warrant a B1G/CIC invite.  They go apoplectic because they are keenly aware of Notre Dame's stellar undergraduate rankings (#19 in USNWR which would be third in the CIC behind only UC and NU while ahead of #20 UCLA and #23 M).  

In spite of ND's stellar undergraduate academics, I'm not wrong to point out that they simply don't have the academics to warrant a B1G/CIC invite because while their undergraduate academics are great, their research programs are pathetic when compared to current B1G/CIC schools.  In 2020 they ranked #109 nationally with research spending of just $227 Million.  That would be dead last in the B1G/CIC by nearly $100 Million behind even Nebraska which itself is ~$130 Million behind second-to-last Chicago.  

I posted part of this in another thread but here are the top research spending institutions that compete in FBS:

  • #2 Michigan, already B1G
  • #5 Washington, PAC
  • #7 UCLA, to be B1G
  • #8 Wisconsin, already B1G
  • #10 Stanford, PAC
  • #11 Dook, ACC
  • #13 UNC, ACC
  • #14 aTm, SEC
  • #15 Pitt, ACC
  • #16 Maryland, already B1G
  • #19 GaTech, ACC
  • #20 Minnesota, already B1G
  • #22 Penn State, already B1G
  • #24 Ohio State, already B1G
  • #26 Florida, SEC
  • #27 USC, to be B1G
  • #29 Northwestern, already B1G
  • #30 California (UC-Berkley), PAC
  • #31 Vanderbilt, SEC
  • #36 UT-Austin, to be SEC
  • #35 Arizona, PAC
  • #37 Indiana, already B1G
  • #38 Michigan State, already B1G
  • #39 Illinois, already B1G
  • #40 Rutgers, already B1G
  • #41 Purdue, already B1G

Note that the list above is frankly dominated by the B1G.  We have:
  • Three of the top-4
  • Seven of the top-14
  • 14 of the top-26.  

So, I think our additions to get to 20 will be:
  • Notre Dame:  I don't particularly like it and I think it will be a mistake in the long run but it seems like this is inevitable.  
  • Stanford:  Both because they are the second highest research spending major football school that we don't already have and because they pair with ND.  
  • Washington:  Because they are the highest research spending major football school that we don't already have and because they give us a school in the PAC NW.  
  • North Carolina:  Duke has slightly better academics but North Carolina is a state flagship so it is a better fit and the academic differences are not all that big.  

Among the top research spending institutions that compete in the FBS, that would give us:
  • All five of the top-5.  
  • Seven of the top-10 (all but DOOK, aTm, and Pitt).  
  • 17 of the top-26.  

Once we go to 20 teams, as I see it, pods are a necessity.  Otherwise you'd never play the teams in the other division thus effectively making it two conferences with a CG.  One oddity with pods of five teams is that each pod ends up with a team without a rivalry weekend partner.  My pods:
The West Pod:
  • Notre Dame
  • USC
  • UCLA
  • Stanford
  • Washington
I'm assuming here that ND would continue their tradition of playing their rivalry weekend game in California alternating between USC and Stanford.  UCLA could then play the other of the two leaving Washington as the odd man out.  

Great Plains Pod:
  • Nebraska
  • Wisconsin
  • Iowa
  • Minnesota
  • Illinois
Nebraska/Iowa and the Axe game would continue as rivalry weekend games leaving Illinois as the odd man out.  

Lakes Pod:
  • Ohio State
  • Michigan
  • Michigan State
  • Indiana
  • Purdue
The Game and the Oaken Bucket game would continue as rivalry weekend games leaving Michigan State as the odd man out.  


East Pod:
  • Penn State
  • North Carolina
  • Maryland
  • Rutgers
  • Northwestern
Rivalry weekend is a bit more complicated here.  North Carolina might want to continue their rivalry weekend tradition of playing NCST just as an OOC game.  If not they could play Maryland and PSU could play Rutgers or UNC/PSU and UMD/RU would be fine.  I'm intentionally leaving NU out so that they can play Illinois on rivalry weekend at least every three years.  

I *THINK* the only big rivalry that I've broken up here is IL/NU.  Northwestern is also the only school that is seriously out of place geographically.  Well, I guess ND is as well but I assumed they'd want to keep their USC and Stanford rivalries.  


Schedules for Football and Basketball:
For football the four pods would form temporary divisions rotating annually.  Each team's nine league games would be:
  • Four games against the other four teams in their pod, and
  • Five games against the five teams in one of the other pods (rotating).  

For basketball (both men's and women's) each team's 20 league games would be:
  • Eight games (two each, H&H) against the other four teams in their pod, and
  • 12 games against the 15 teams in the other three pods (ie, play all but three every year thus play all 15 four times every five years).  

Rivalry weekend in football:
  • The Game remains
  • IU/PU
  • ND at either USC or Stanford
  • UCLA hosting the other (USC/Stanford)
  • UNL vs IA
  • The Axe game
  • PSU vs UNC
  • RU vs UMD
  • Washington vs either MSU, IL, or NU (in rotation)
  • Michigan State vs either Washington, IL, or NU (in rotation)
  • Illinois vs either Washington, MSU, or NU (in rotation)
  • Northwestern vs either Washington, MSU, or IL (in rotation)


FearlessF

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Re: B1G academics, and who I *THINK* additional new members will be
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2022, 04:06:44 PM »
great but the TV networks don't give a damn about academic spending

and these conferences are football conferences because of TV networks

that said, I do kinda like....

The West Pod:
Notre Dame
USC
UCLA
Stanford
Washington
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

utee94

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Re: B1G academics, and who I *THINK* additional new members will be
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2022, 06:21:34 PM »
As always, I appreciate MB's meticulous analysis.  Always some very thought-provoking details for discussion.

I'll be honest, talk of pods and scheduling bores me to tears, but I do agree that the 4 targets MB identifies are the most logical. 

We are all unsure of ND's next steps, and if given the options of B1G or nothing then I think Stanford might just abandon the conference model and go it alone regionally-- they're one of the few schools that could do it.  But those are definitely 4 worthy and logical targets for the B1G, in the current environment.

« Last Edit: July 22, 2022, 06:47:53 PM by utee94 »

FearlessF

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Re: B1G academics, and who I *THINK* additional new members will be
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2022, 06:54:36 PM »
how long before NBC or HULU or someone can decide if they can provide enuff money to keep ND independent?

a couple years? or is the writing on the wall?

is this one reason Brian Kelly jumped to the SEC?

cause the money won't be there
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utee94

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Re: B1G academics, and who I *THINK* additional new members will be
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2022, 07:14:13 PM »
how long before NBC or HULU or someone can decide if they can provide enuff money to keep ND independent?

a couple years? or is the writing on the wall?

is this one reason Brian Kelly jumped to the SEC?

cause the money won't be there

Folks have been predicting a highly disruptive entrance of streaming services into the college football broadcasting marketplace for almost a decade now.

I kinda feel like if it were going to happen, it would have happened already. 

Times change, situations are fluid, etc. so who knows what the future will bring, but I'm not sure the financiers, strategists, and their actuaries, are really finding enough value there, to move forward.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2022, 08:22:48 PM by utee94 »

WhiskeyM

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Re: B1G academics, and who I *THINK* additional new members will be
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2022, 08:50:34 PM »
Instead of 4 pods of 5 it would likely be 5 pods of 4.  This allows more flexibility in scheduling and permanent crossovers.  Winning divisions, or pods, will be a thing of the past anyway.  Everyone is moving toward the top 2 model for a CCG.

Using your additional teams...

West Pod
USC, UCLA, Stanford, Washington

Plains Pod
Wisconsin, Nebraska, Iowa, Minnesota

Lakes Pod?
Notre Dame, Illinois, Purdue, Northwestern

Central Pod?
Ohio State, Michigan, Michigan State, Indiana

East Pod
Penn State, North Carolina, Maryland, Rutgers

MrNubbz

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Re: B1G academics, and who I *THINK* additional new members will be
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2022, 10:00:04 PM »
The way things are going 商会议
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: B1G academics, and who I *THINK* additional new members will be
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2022, 12:00:23 AM »
Yeah, the one thing showing the most resistance to streaming (in a good, healthy way) is live sports.  Seems like people will consume nearly anything else on a delay or watch-when-you-want, except for live sports.
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Hawkinole

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Re: B1G academics, and who I *THINK* additional new members will be
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2022, 12:54:41 AM »
University of Chicago exited the CIC in June 2016.

LittlePig

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Re: B1G academics, and who I *THINK* additional new members will be
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2022, 04:42:48 AM »
I don't see a need for pods but if you are going to have 4 pods of 5 teams , I would put OSU in the east .  Put ILL in Lakes.  And put NW in Plains.  Then you would have to have annual games between OSU-Mich and ILL-NW

Also why call them pods?  Why not just call them divisions?

LittlePig

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Re: B1G academics, and who I *THINK* additional new members will be
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2022, 05:01:54 AM »
One alternative to pods I thought of.  If you went with 10 conference games you could set up a schedule of 4 permanent rivals you play every year, 6 rivals you play 50% of the time, 9 rivals you play 33% of the time.  The old 4-3(3)-3(3)(3).

For example for Notre Dame you could have

4 permanent rivals. - USC, Stanford, Purdue, MSU
6 50% rivals - Mich, PSU, Indy, OSU, NW, Iowa
9 33% rivals -  UNC, MD, Rut,  ILL, Wisc, Minn, NEB, Wash, UCLA

The 50% rivals could be set up to play Mich, PSU, Indy in 1 year and OSU, Iowa, NW in the other year.

The 33% rivals could be set up to play 1 east team (UNC, MD, Rut) each year.  1 central team (ILL, Wisc, Minn) each year and 1 west team (NEB, Wash, UCLA) each year. 

This just seems more an ideal schedule (at least to me) for Notre Dame based on historic rivals they have played in the past.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2022, 05:42:22 AM by LittlePig »

Cincydawg

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Re: B1G academics, and who I *THINK* additional new members will be
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2022, 07:27:31 AM »
Most, I think, of the research funding is Federal dollars.  Professors basically get tenured, or not, based on how much they bring in.  I think the tenure thing is broken, but won't get changed.  The Army Research Office doles out a fair amount of grants.

847badgerfan

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Re: B1G academics, and who I *THINK* additional new members will be
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2022, 08:25:59 AM »
University of Chicago exited the CIC in June 2016.
Yep. And the CIC isn't that anymore.


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LittlePig

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Re: B1G academics, and who I *THINK* additional new members will be
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2022, 09:59:04 AM »
Yep. And the CIC isn't that anymore.


Home | Big Ten Academic Alliance (btaa.org)
Why did I think that John Hopkins had joined the CIC when they joined the Big Ten for Lacrosse as an affiliate member? 

Did they join at one point and then leave later like Chicago did?

 

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