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Topic: And the Michiganders Shall Spoil Perfection (SOC 10/5/19)

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847badgerfan

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Re: And the Michiganders Shall Spoil Perfection (SOC 10/5/19)
« Reply #224 on: October 11, 2019, 07:40:10 AM »
NJ might be more so.  They seem to have had some HS talent, along with Philly.
The best running back in the country is from NJ. Saquon Barkley was too.


Both were committed to SUNJ before they flipped to UW and PSU, respectively.
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utee94

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Re: And the Michiganders Shall Spoil Perfection (SOC 10/5/19)
« Reply #225 on: October 11, 2019, 07:52:30 AM »
Most universities are strong in some sport consistently, like wrestling or something.  Rutgers?

Do they bring TV eyeballs to the table?  NY State does not seem like a CFB hotbed at all, nor New England.  NJ might be more so.  They seem to have had some HS talent, along with Philly.

Be interesting to see how many on the Rutger lineup are home grown.
Not really, but they brought cable subscribers to the B1G tv footprint, and that's why they were added.  As the cable subscriber model dies off, there will be no real reason to have them in the B1G, but I don't think it's realistic they'll be kicked out.  At this point, the B1G is stuck with them.

Cincydawg

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Re: And the Michiganders Shall Spoil Perfection (SOC 10/5/19)
« Reply #226 on: October 11, 2019, 07:56:52 AM »
D'Andre Swift is from Philadelphia, as well, he's a pretty good RB.  Knowshom Moreno was from NJ.

Swift doesn't have impressive numbers running the ball but they are using him to catch passes effectively.  He's almost certain to go pro.

Seems like Maryland and SUNJ have recruiting grounds near them.

Cincydawg

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Re: And the Michiganders Shall Spoil Perfection (SOC 10/5/19)
« Reply #227 on: October 11, 2019, 07:59:02 AM »
Yeah, I forget about cable subscriptions.  I get BTN down here as the package we get through the HOA.  I often forget it's there.

I'm amazed how many channels are selling stuff 24/7.  Do folks sit and watch these channels and buy stuff?  Really?


utee94

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Re: And the Michiganders Shall Spoil Perfection (SOC 10/5/19)
« Reply #228 on: October 11, 2019, 08:01:23 AM »
I don't get BTN or PAC.  They're available as an extra-pay option but not on my standard sports tiers.  I do get LHN and SECN on the standard package that has ESPN in it.  I guess I can thank an Aggie for the latter.

Brutus Buckeye

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Re: And the Michiganders Shall Spoil Perfection (SOC 10/5/19)
« Reply #229 on: October 11, 2019, 08:47:38 AM »
Buckeye are off three of the next four Saturdays. Two bye weeks and a Friday night game. Ugh.
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Cincydawg

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Re: And the Michiganders Shall Spoil Perfection (SOC 10/5/19)
« Reply #230 on: October 11, 2019, 11:00:51 AM »
I don't have any control over what we get on "cable" (it's satellite) except I guess I can add something.  And of course I could choose not to watch some channels.

When we moved here, I figured we got "very basic cable" and slow internet, it's been a pleasant surprise.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: And the Michiganders Shall Spoil Perfection (SOC 10/5/19)
« Reply #231 on: October 11, 2019, 11:29:10 AM »
Correct.

Legislators in Illinois (based on a plan from the new Governor Big Boy) are pushing to open the constitution next year, but it's not to address the pension python.

Nope. They are trying to open it to address the flat tax issue. Illinois is a flat tax state. They are pushing to make it a progressive tax state. But no. Leave those pensions alone. AFSME says so, dammit.

Bye now. I'll turn the lights off when I leave.
This is one of the reasons that I proposed above and advocate for a federally mandated solution.  In a lot of states the public sector unions wield so much political power that it is politically (or constitutionally as in Illinois, but that is just a manifestation of the underlying political reality) impossible to make the necessary cuts.  

The problem that creates is that the current legislators can't make cuts but they can't (or won't) raise taxes or cut services to fund the pensions so they just kick the can down the road to the next group of legislators.  

In Ohio term limits for state legislators have made the problem even worse.  Before term limits most legislators hoped and expected to be in the legislature for a long time.  As such, when confronted with an issue like this they reasonably expected that they would have to deal with it someday.  Now they all KNOW that they will not be around very long so kicking the can down the road to the next group of legislators has become substantially more relatively appealing.  

The problem, of course, is that the underlying underfunded pension issue compounds every year such that it is a MUCH bigger problem now than it was 10 years ago and it will be a MUCH bigger problem 10 years from now than it is today.  If you kick the can down the road long enough you end up in a situation like Detroit where there are literally no viable solutions.  

Ex, if you raise the retirement age by four years today you will save the system (lets say) $1B.  If you had made that change 10 years ago you might have saved the system $5B.  If you wait 10 years then make that change it might only save $100k.  The exact amounts are not germane, the point is that when you kick the problem down the road, the problem gets exponentially bigger.  

847badgerfan

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Re: And the Michiganders Shall Spoil Perfection (SOC 10/5/19)
« Reply #232 on: October 11, 2019, 11:43:23 AM »
I don't know what to feel about term limits. I like the guy that reps our district, so I'd hate to see him lose out to term limits.

The House Speaker has been so for all but two years, since 1983. I'd like to see a limit on that. He has wrecked everything in this once-great State, including legislating "pension holidays" into law. 

He's speaker, has a super-majority (veto-proof) and he also chairs his party - which means he controls all the money. This means all of his caucus is at his mercy. If one of them crosses him, he puts up his own candidate to crush the guy/gal. It happens a lot here. I wish he could be stopped. Nothing positive will happen in the way of reform here until he's gone.

A term limit on speaker (and senate president) might be a great thing here.

Of course, the Feds have been indicting guys very close to him lately. I'm sure they have their eye on the prize. Sure hope so.
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FearlessF

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Re: And the Michiganders Shall Spoil Perfection (SOC 10/5/19)
« Reply #233 on: October 11, 2019, 12:02:15 PM »
term limits won't change anything but, the names and faces
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: And the Michiganders Shall Spoil Perfection (SOC 10/5/19)
« Reply #234 on: October 11, 2019, 03:23:43 PM »
I don't know what to feel about term limits. I like the guy that reps our district, so I'd hate to see him lose out to term limits.

The House Speaker has been so for all but two years, since 1983. I'd like to see a limit on that. He has wrecked everything in this once-great State, including legislating "pension holidays" into law.

He's speaker, has a super-majority (veto-proof) and he also chairs his party - which means he controls all the money. This means all of his caucus is at his mercy. If one of them crosses him, he puts up his own candidate to crush the guy/gal. It happens a lot here. I wish he could be stopped. Nothing positive will happen in the way of reform here until he's gone.

A term limit on speaker (and senate president) might be a great thing here.

Of course, the Feds have been indicting guys very close to him lately. I'm sure they have their eye on the prize. Sure hope so.

term limits won't change anything but, the names and faces
I concur with @FearlessF and I'll add a few things.  

First, a lot of people view this as a partisan, R v D thing but it isn't.  Term limits cut both ways.  In Ohio we had a Speaker of the Ohio House named Vern Riffe who served as Speaker for 20 years.  He was a D and a lot of R's supported term limits because they wanted to get rid of him.  Well, that worked, but like Fearless said that just changes the names and faces.  There isn't a partisan advantage to one side or the other.  

I work with the State Government in Ohio a lot and I'll give you my perspective on what Term Limits have done.  For clarification, term limits passed for State Legislators in Ohio in 1992 and limited Representatives and Senators to eight years.  Well, not exactly.  Reps are limited to four consecutive two year terms and Senators are limited to two consecutive four year terms.  Legislators can return to a Chamber (either House or Senate) after being out of THAT Chamber for four years.  Ie, if Badge and I lived in the same place we could indefinitely swap offices every four or eight years.  

What terms limits have actually done:
  • They have made the parties MUCH more powerful:  Unless you are either independently wealthy or retired, you need a job once your time in the legislature is done.  As a practical matter, the likely source of that job is likely to be your party but if you want that post-legislature job, you better toe the party line while you are in.  
  • They have made the bureaucrats MUCH more powerful:  Prior to term limits a good Representative or Senator could make a bad bureaucrat's life very difficult.  Now, they really can't.  By the time they have been around long enough to know that Bureaucrat X isn't doing his/her job, the legislator is on their way out the door and can't do anything about it.  
  • They have made the Lobbyists MUCH more powerful:  Prior to term limits lobbyists asked legislators for things that they wanted.  Now they basically dictate because the legislators don't know what the heck is going on.  Additionally, if your post-legislature job is NOT provided by your party (see #1) then it will most likely be provided by a lobbyist but you aren't getting that job unless you did that lobbyist's bidding when you were in the legislature.  
  • They have given legislators an even shorter view of the world.  This was a problem before term limits and it is an inherent problem of any representative democracy because it encourages the elected officials to have an outlook that basically only runs to the next election.  Before term limits at least SOME legislators realized or presumed that they would be around for longer than two or four years so they didn't want to do anything that would put the State in a difficult situation 10 or 20 years down the road because they thought there was a decent chance that they might have to fix that problem in 10 or 20 years.  Now they have no such concern.  They absolutely KNOW that they cannot maintain their current office for 10 or 20 years so kicking difficult issues down the road for some other people to deal with later which was always an attractive option for officials facing reelection is an even more attractive option.  

Bottom line, support term limits if you want a substantial portion of your legislators to be retired or independently wealthy and if you want to increase the power of Political Parties, Bureaucrats, and Lobbyists at the expense of the voters along with increasing the chance that the elected officials fail to plan for anything beyond a very short timeframe.  

If you would rather have legislators from different walks of life and you prefer the voters have power rather than the Political Parties, Bureaucrats, and Lobbyists along with getting at least some long-term thinking from your elected officials then you should oppose term limits.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: And the Michiganders Shall Spoil Perfection (SOC 10/5/19)
« Reply #235 on: October 11, 2019, 03:44:39 PM »
Bringing this all back to the Pension issue (where this semi-political digression started), consider the situation in Illinois from the perspective of an Illinois legislator:

According to this link that I found, the State of Illinois already spends more than a quarter of its revenues on total pension costs.  That is staggering if you think about it and give Illinois State legislators very limited ability to make any changes.  

If 25% of your total revenues are gobbled up by pension costs you really only control the other 75%.  It is worse than that though, Illinois' pensions are massively underfunded.  Per the article, Illinois pension debt is already $137 billion and would grow to $200 billion if they are forced to bail out the local pension systems (mostly Chicago).  Per this link, Illinois' total annual revenues are only about $34 billion and they are ALREADY spending more than their revenues and under-funding their pensions.  

It is worse than that though, in government just as in personal budgeting there are a lot of items that you (or your legislators) don't really have a choice about.  For just a few examples, 11% of Illinois' total revenues come from the Feds but Federal money ALWAYS comes with strings so they are legally required to spend it on the Federally mandated purpose.  Ie, the State of Illinois can't just take Federal Highway money and use that to shore up their pension systems.  

In addition to the money that comes with strings, there are a lot of government expenditures that are either legally, morally, or politically unavoidable.  We or Illinois legislators can argue about exactly how much Illinois should spend on plowing, paving, and repairing roads but nobody will seriously argue that they should just stop providing roads (or bridges or a whole host of other things).  

It is worse than that though because they are already $200 billion behind because that anticipated bailout of local pension systems isn't really a question of "if", it is a question of "when".  Just like the hypothetical Detroit beat cop that I mentioned several pages ago, Chicago beat cops who have spent the last 30 years trying to keep Chicagoans from killing each other has definitely earned a pension.  When Chicago follows Detroit into pension-induced bankruptcy it will be neither morally nor politically possible for the state of Illinois to just watch from the sidelines while retired Chicago Cops, Firefighters, etc form bread lines begging for handouts.  

Bottom line, Illinois is already operating an an annual deficit of ~$5 billion and they have ~$200 billion in pension liability.  If they cut expenditures or raised taxes by 20% tomorrow that would only provide them with roughly a $3 billion annual surplus and it would take nearly 70 years for those $3 billion annual surpluses to accumulate enough money to wipe out the pension debt.  If they raised taxes and cut expenditures by 20% each that would give them somewhere around an $11 billion annual surplus but it would still take 20 years to wipe out the pension debt.  

It is worse than that in Ohio though because term limits give our legislators absolutely zero motivation to solve this conundrum.  It is axiomatic that any solution will be politically painful.  Nobody wants a 20% tax hike or a 20% spending cut and both at the same time would be brutal both economically and politically.  If I am term limited out in a few years why should I support such items when I could just kick the can down the road and let some future legislator deal with it?  

utee94

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Re: And the Michiganders Shall Spoil Perfection (SOC 10/5/19)
« Reply #236 on: October 11, 2019, 03:46:38 PM »
pension talk not going away.... :)

847badgerfan

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Re: And the Michiganders Shall Spoil Perfection (SOC 10/5/19)
« Reply #237 on: October 11, 2019, 04:00:55 PM »
Probably never will.

Conference expansion too.
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