header pic

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


Author

Topic: All-Time Great Non-National Champion Teams...

 (Read 19382 times)

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 37520
  • Liked:
Re: All-Time Great Non-National Champion Teams...
« Reply #252 on: February 02, 2018, 10:33:21 PM »

Maybe make it 25%?  I don't want to go overboard with this, but I don't want to be exclusionary, either.  The game would be more fun with more QB choices than with less.  
I would guess some of the great teams had a great starting QB and the backup merely played during mop up time
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 18841
  • Liked:
Re: All-Time Great Non-National Champion Teams...
« Reply #253 on: February 02, 2018, 10:38:30 PM »
I'm sure that's part of what made them NC teams, lol.  Maybe I should just eyeball it and make a judgement call, team-by-team.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 37520
  • Liked:
Re: All-Time Great Non-National Champion Teams...
« Reply #254 on: February 02, 2018, 11:00:21 PM »
obviously a tough job

;)
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

rolltidefan

  • Global Moderator
  • Starter
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 2219
  • Liked:
Re: All-Time Great Non-National Champion Teams...
« Reply #255 on: February 03, 2018, 11:11:34 AM »
I'm sure that's part of what made them NC teams, lol.  Maybe I should just eyeball it and make a judgement call, team-by-team.  
i think this is where i'd go, if you are either familiar with how that team operated or if you can find decent sources to inform you of their operation (posters here could be a significant source of that info, imo). if that's to much of a task, then i'd do close to 1/3.
taking bama this year into consideration, tua had right at 30% att and 30% yards passing that hurts had. but, aside from the title game, tua played 0 meaningful minutes. he played a TON in the 3rd and 4th qtrs for a backup, but we were winning by 15+. his only game with ANY att with the game in question was the title game.
question is, do you include him? looking at stats, i'm not sure it'd have an effect either way (almost identical to hurts in comp%, y/a, and worse but not bad td/int ratio). so more than likely, if you put a card or 2 for him in there, the result is gonna be really similar to hurts, even though they're different style players. *as a side note, this is a good example of the undue ridicule hurts gets, imo. he wasn't perfect by any means, but he was still pretty good.

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 18841
  • Liked:
Re: All-Time Great Non-National Champion Teams...
« Reply #256 on: February 03, 2018, 02:39:35 PM »
Yeah, youtube helps a lot - tons of old games on there.  Yesterday, I saw Aikman at OU running the triple option some before he got hurt that year.  He was an athlete to be sure.  Yet Holieway comes in during garbage time and runs it for a 50 yard gain - I think the writing was on the wall.

The thing is, this is a dice+card game, and what-ifs could be a fun part of it.  What if Aikman stayed at OU and they passed a lot more?  You could find out in this game (if you bought a 1985 Big 8 set of team card$, when available).  

With the army of strat-o-matic players replaying entire baseball seasons, a fully-fleshed out college football game would sell.  And part of the allure would be these "what if" scenarios.  

I think I'll just look at it and if it seems like a 2nd QB would maybe make sense, I'll make it.  If it's on the fence, I'll go ahead and make it, and whoever plays the game will decide yes I want to utilize the backup more or no, I'll stick with the starter.  

Hell, you could pull a '97 Spurrier and switch out your QBs every other play (vs #1 FSU).  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 18841
  • Liked:
Re: All-Time Great Non-National Champion Teams...
« Reply #257 on: February 03, 2018, 02:42:00 PM »
I thought the 1991 Washington Huskies had a split pair at QB (Herbert/Brunnell), but they didn't.  The time wasn't really split until 1992.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 18841
  • Liked:
Re: All-Time Great Non-National Champion Teams...
« Reply #258 on: February 03, 2018, 02:47:01 PM »

taking bama this year into consideration, tua had right at 30% att and 30% yards passing that hurts had. but, aside from the title game, tua played 0 meaningful minutes. he played a TON in the 3rd and 4th qtrs for a backup, but we were winning by 15+. his only game with ANY att with the game in question was the title game.
question is, do you include him? looking at stats, i'm not sure it'd have an effect either way (almost identical to hurts in comp%, y/a, and worse but not bad td/int ratio). so more than likely, if you put a card or 2 for him in there, the result is gonna be really similar to hurts, even though they're different style players. *as a side note, this is a good example of the undue ridicule hurts gets, imo. he wasn't perfect by any means, but he was still pretty good.
Tua is right at 30%, yeah, but when a guy has 11 TD passes, even as a backup, that's something.  And don't short-sell his 4% lead on Hurts in completion %.  If you played a season of this game, I think you would see that difference.  

Maybe it'd just be harmless fun for a Bama fan to replay the 2017 season with Tua at QB the whole year, see how similar or different the results would be.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 18841
  • Liked:
Re: All-Time Great Non-National Champion Teams...
« Reply #259 on: February 03, 2018, 03:13:35 PM »
Looking at all these "best seasons" I've started creating for each program:

YR - SCHOOL - 2nd QB

1998 Arizona - Ortege Jenkins
1997 UNC - Chris Keldorf
2013 Duke - Brandon Connette
2013 S.Carolina - Dylan Thompson
1977 Arkansas - Houston Nutt - HA!
 
So not too many.  I'll make a 1994 Nebraska Tommie Frazier card, but his Comp% was 20% lower than Berringer's.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 18841
  • Liked:
Re: All-Time Great Non-National Champion Teams...
« Reply #260 on: February 03, 2018, 03:30:46 PM »
Looking at some helmet teams, year-by-year, seeing which squads would warrant 2 QB cards:
Nebraska - 1975, 77, 79, 81, 84, 85, 90, 92, 98, 07, 13
Alabama - 1973, 74, 75, 81, 84, 87, 91, 95, 01, 02, 04
Notre Dame - 1975, 77, 80, 81, 83, 87, 00, 07, 10

So that's quite a few - more than I would've guessed.  I assume most big-time programs are similar to these, maybe fewer if they ditched the option earlier on, idk.  

Hmmph.  This has been sort of a rabbit hole, but I'm glad we've gone down it, and again, creating a QB card is quick and easy.  So might as well make 'em.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 37520
  • Liked:
Re: All-Time Great Non-National Champion Teams...
« Reply #261 on: February 03, 2018, 03:41:36 PM »
Tommie was clutch on 3rd down
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 37520
  • Liked:
Re: All-Time Great Non-National Champion Teams...
« Reply #262 on: February 03, 2018, 03:43:46 PM »
helmet teams recruited well back in the day, always blew out lesser opponents and got the 
#2 guy some reps
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 18841
  • Liked:
Re: All-Time Great Non-National Champion Teams...
« Reply #263 on: February 04, 2018, 12:54:43 PM »
Looking at some helmet teams, year-by-year, seeing which squads would warrant 2 QB cards:
Nebraska - 1975, 77, 79, 81, 84, 85, 90, 92, 98, 07, 13
Alabama - 1973, 74, 75, 81, 84, 87, 91, 95, 01, 02, 04
Notre Dame - 1975, 77, 80, 81, 83, 87, 00, 07, 10

So that's quite a few - more than I would've guessed.  I assume most big-time programs are similar to these, maybe fewer if they ditched the option earlier on, idk.  

Hmmph.  This has been sort of a rabbit hole, but I'm glad we've gone down it, and again, creating a QB card is quick and easy.  So might as well make 'em.
Well at least for the Nebraska QBs, the backup has very nearly the same attempts as the top guy.  In one case, the difference is only 1 attempt.  So whether it was getting a huge early lead the putting the next guy in at halftime or what, I think it warrants a card for both QBs.  I bet many other factors played a role, too:  minor injuries, the backup getting some time when the game was still in doubt, discipline/suspensions, etc.

Hell, one year, Spurrier sat Wuerffel in the middle of an undefeated season to let his talented backup start and play the whole game vs the homecoming opponent (N. Illinois).  Kresser went on to throw for a school-record yardage total, then transferred after the season.  
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 12:57:15 PM by OrangeAfroMan »
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

ELA

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 20318
  • Liked:
Re: All-Time Great Non-National Champion Teams...
« Reply #264 on: February 04, 2018, 04:28:16 PM »
I'd be curious as a test to do a random mediocre team and a random bad team, or a good, but not actually good mid major team, like a Florida Atlantic.  See if it's nearly impossible to beat one of these teams with like a 6-6 Mississippi State team or a 3-9 Vandy.  Or if there's a way to recognize that FAU wasn't actually that good.

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 18841
  • Liked:
Re: All-Time Great Non-National Champion Teams...
« Reply #265 on: February 04, 2018, 06:25:30 PM »
There's no strength of schedule component here, it's just the stats.  It pre-supposes the teams are on a relatively even level - that's why I did all of the national champs first and then each school's best team.

The only way to make it so a non-P5 team with good stats would consistently lose to a big-boy team with good stats wold be to alter them.  I'm not going there.

Now, a crappy Iowa State or Vandy team is likely to get spanked consistently, were I to make their cards, because they were on the same level as big-boy teams, in terms of SOS.  They have crappy stats, so they'll perform crappy.  
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 06:30:14 PM by OrangeAfroMan »
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

 

Support the Site!
Purchase of every item listed here DIRECTLY supports the site.