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Topic: A Discussion of Calculus, and maybe Physics, and AP classes and college
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CWSooner · « **Reply #98 on:** April 04, 2020, 03:32:13 PM »

Quote from: SFBadger96 on April 02, 2020, 06:27:57 PM

Statistics don't lie; people lie.

But I digress. When I was a high school student one would take AP courses primarily to get ahead of required college courses. Nowadays kids take AP courses to improve their GPA to improve their chances of getting into selective universities. If one is truly interested in getting ahead on college courses, the local junior college--if there is one available--is the best bet. But kids in suburbs like mine don't do that as often because those courses don't improve the high school GPA which is the ticket to the selective university. It's ridiculous. Not least because the AP courses aren't as good as most of the junior college courses.

This is a subject that strikes a nerve for me.

I am familiar with what you are describing, SF, but my experience is different.
I teach AP U.S. History at a suburban HS--one of the best public high schools in the state--and this year I also began teaching AP Research, which is the 2nd year of the 2-year AP Capstone program.
And I've taught U.S. History at the local JC, Tulsa Community College.
My AP U.S. History course is much more rigorous than what I taught at TCC.
However, the numbers of our students enrolling in AP classes have been declining over the past few years, as more and more kids are doing the concurrent-enrollment thing at TCC. But, surprisingly, the enrollment numbers for AP history courses for next year took a jump this spring. I've got 92 kids enrolled for AP USH next fall. We're trying to keep class sizes under 25, so that puts me at 4 AP USH classes plus an AP Research class. I may not get to teach the brand-new elective class I've been working up--Military History.

Or I may get six classes and no planning period.

CWSooner · « **Reply #99 on:** April 04, 2020, 03:36:17 PM »

Quote from: bwarbiany on April 02, 2020, 06:45:48 PM

My AP US History teacher is one of the favorite teachers I've ever had. He was also probably the most challenging teacher I had in HS.

During "back to school night" or whatever they called it, my mom was in his presentation and he said "I am going to give your kids more work than they can possibly handle. I'm going to give them the kind of workload as if they have no other classes. I'm going to do this to teach them time management."

She said later that what was going through her mind was "Oh no... These are kids who will absolutely KILL themselves to do the work and get it done. This is going to crush them!"

It didn't crush us. In fact, it taught us an amazing thing about the ability to dig deep and get things done--lessons that I'm sure helped all of us when we got the real workload of college and then [hopefully for every one of his students] when they got into the real world.

Those "highly selective universities" like to tout their graduation rates, as if every one of their students weren't the sort of high achiever AP type of students who would sooner die of exhaustion than disappoint their teacher. The less selective universities have lower graduation rates, but they offer opportunity to anyone willing to work for it, with the knowledge that some of them aren't as willing as they thought they were.

Harvard grads have better overall outcomes than Ball State grads, and a lot of people think that means that your education is better at Harvard than Ball State. Instead, it's more due to the fact that the only people Harvard admits are the types for whom Ball State wouldn't even rate "safety school" status.

I've read some analysis saying that the Ivies aren't any harder than good (not elite) public universities. The hard part is getting in. Then, basically, everybody passes.

betarhoalphadelta · « **Reply #100 on:** April 04, 2020, 03:55:36 PM »

Quote from: CWSooner on April 04, 2020, 03:36:17 PM

I've read some analysis saying that the Ivies aren't any harder than good (not elite) public universities. The hard part is getting in. Then, basically, everybody passes.

When you put it that way, you make it sound like they're not working towards passing... I don't want to create the idea that they're getting in and then everything is just handed to them...

But I agree, I doubt the difficulty of the curriculum is different than good public universities.

Where I think the Ivies are different is in a couple of places:

As stated, the type of people admitted are the high achievers who aren't likely to screw up.
Because of the small size of the colleges, there is a lot more opportunity to indivdually watch for students who need special assistance or are lagging, and those students get support they might not get at a large public university.
Smaller groups may have more individual/instruction and generally more support per student than at a big public.
The universities pride themselves so much on graduation rates that they are actively trying to not allow students to fail.

At Purdue, plenty of people failed out. The university had plenty of support if you went looking for it, but they weren't looking for you to shove that support down your throat and make sure you succeeded. I think the Ivies are doing a lot more of that.

MichiFan87 · « **Reply #101 on:** April 04, 2020, 04:04:04 PM »

The problem with community college courses are that many of the more selective schools don't accept credits from them unless it's a public university in the same state.

For example, when I was at Michigan, I definitely noticed that a lot more instate students took summer courses and/or already had credits from their local community college so that they could get a better grade in what would otherwise be a weed-out course (chemistry, calculus, physics, etc.) and so that they could take fewer credits during the regular school year..... Being from PA, that wasn't an option for me.

I suspect this pandemic situation will accelerate the rise of online education, especially at college level, as has already been happening for masters programs, including the one I went through. I would think that would make community college courses much more accessible to high school students, college-age student, and older adults who are trying to change or improve their careers. Time will tell, though.

There's definitely an inverse correlation between admissions selectivity and graduate rates. I think that's pretty self-explanatory. This site shows it pretty clearly: https://oedb.org/rankings/graduation-rate/

CWSooner · « **Reply #102 on:** April 04, 2020, 05:27:59 PM »

Quote from: MichiFan87 on April 04, 2020, 04:04:04 PM

The problem with community college courses are that many of the more selective schools don't accept credits from them unless it's a public university in the same state.

For example, when I was at Michigan, I definitely noticed that a lot more instate students took summer courses and/or already had credits from their local community college so that they could get a better grade in what would otherwise be a weed-out course (chemistry, calculus, physics, etc.) and so that they could take fewer credits during the regular school year..... Being from PA, that wasn't an option for me.

I suspect this pandemic situation will accelerate the rise of online education, especially at college level, as has already been happening for masters programs, including the one I went through. I would think that would make community college courses much more accessible to high school students, college-age student, and older adults who are trying to change or improve their careers. Time will tell, though.

There's definitely an inverse correlation between admissions selectivity and graduate rates. I think that's pretty self-explanatory. This site shows it pretty clearly: https://oedb.org/rankings/graduation-rate/

So, high selectivity ~ low graduation rate?
I think you mean low acceptance rate ~ high graduation rate, yes?
That website ended up taking me to a degree planner for SNHU. No comparison of selectivity/grad rate that I could see.

Cincydawg · « **Reply #103 on:** April 04, 2020, 07:15:15 PM »

How much difference is there between being in a class with 400 people and a live professor and watching a canned lecture on line with no questions?

Even classes of 10 folks often generate no questions.

Imagine the CGI one could employ to illustrate various functions and phenomena.

MichiFan87 · « **Reply #104 on:** April 04, 2020, 07:35:19 PM »

Quote from: CWSooner on April 04, 2020, 05:27:59 PM

So, high selectivity ~ low graduation rate?
I think you mean low acceptance rate ~ high graduation rate, yes?
That website ended up taking me to a degree planner for SNHU. No comparison of selectivity/grad rate that I could see.

Yes, sorry for the confusion. Scroll down a little and you'll see the list with graduate rate, acceptance rate, among others...

It's easier to see the correlation sorted by https://oedb.org/rankings/acceptance-rate/

CWSooner · « **Reply #105 on:** April 04, 2020, 08:05:37 PM »

Quote from: MichiFan87 on April 04, 2020, 07:35:19 PM

Yes, sorry for the confusion. Scroll down a little and you'll see the list with graduate rate, acceptance rate, among others...

It's easier to see the correlation sorted by https://oedb.org/rankings/acceptance-rate/

Ah, yes, thanks! Very interesting site.

Implied is the idea that the schools with uber-low acceptance rates are in competition with each other in that category. So they recruit many students--very good students--to apply, so that they can be rejected and make their numbers look "better." I that is the case.
I will say this, the nicest rejection letter I've ever seen came from Stanford to a student of mine two years ago. He was/is a brilliant student (son of Mexican immigrants and the first in his family to go to college) who ended up going to OU because the more elite schools he was accepted to didn't impress him in one way or another.

847badgerfan · « **Reply #106 on:** April 04, 2020, 08:07:16 PM »

Quote from: MichiFan87 on April 04, 2020, 04:04:04 PM

The problem with community college courses are that many of the more selective schools don't accept credits from them unless it's a public university in the same state.

For example, when I was at Michigan, I definitely noticed that a lot more instate students took summer courses and/or already had credits from their local community college so that they could get a better grade in what would otherwise be a weed-out course (chemistry, calculus, physics, etc.) and so that they could take fewer credits during the regular school year..... Being from PA, that wasn't an option for me.

I suspect this pandemic situation will accelerate the rise of online education, especially at college level, as has already been happening for masters programs, including the one I went through. I would think that would make community college courses much more accessible to high school students, college-age student, and older adults who are trying to change or improve their careers. Time will tell, though.

There's definitely an inverse correlation between admissions selectivity and graduate rates. I think that's pretty self-explanatory. This site shows it pretty clearly: https://oedb.org/rankings/graduation-rate/

I call bulljive.

847badgerfan · « **Reply #107 on:** April 04, 2020, 08:11:29 PM »

I also think bachelor degrees are overstated in their value, minus specific majors in the STEM categories.

And speaking of STEM...

The local HS district here now calls it STEAM.

The A is for "arts".

One of those is not like the other, from a job standpoint. But, the teacher unions are gonna union.

Just wait. It will catch on nationally.

I'm glad I'm "old".

CWSooner · « **Reply #108 on:** April 04, 2020, 08:26:09 PM »

Quote from: 847badgerfan on April 04, 2020, 08:11:29 PM

I also think bachelor degrees are overstated in their value, minus specific majors in the STEM categories.

And speaking of STEM...

The local HS district here now calls it STEAM.

The A is for "arts".

One of those is not like the other, from a job standpoint. But, the teacher unions are gonna union.

Just wait. It will catch on nationally.

I'm glad I'm "old".

You know, Badge, you're getting into a subject here that can go pretty deep.
What does it mean to be educated? Does it mean that you have acquired a skill that is currently in demand in our economy, or might it also include other, different things?
I think that the problem with "liberal arts" majors might lie more in the way they are being taught than in the fields of study.

847badgerfan · « **Reply #109 on:** April 04, 2020, 08:40:26 PM »

Quote from: CWSooner on April 04, 2020, 08:26:09 PM

You know, Badge, you're getting into a subject here that can go pretty deep.
What does it mean to be educated? Does it mean that you have acquired a skill that is currently in demand in our economy, or might it also include other, different things?
I think that the problem with "liberal arts" majors might lie more in the way they are being taught than in the fields of study.

Yes, I understand that and I was hoping you would reply.

I'd like to respectfully ask for time to respond further, as I've had a few pops.

Cincydawg · « **Reply #110 on:** April 05, 2020, 05:44:02 AM »

The extra "facts" I learned in grad school were relatively unimportant. (We only had one year of classes anyway.) The basics for how to approach and solve a problem was the Main Thing. Sounds trite now that I say it.

I guess we did have 3 semesters of classes, but the third semester was only one or two classes as I dimly recall now.

MichiFan87 · « **Reply #111 on:** April 05, 2020, 01:05:49 PM »

Master's programs are supposed to be career-oriented as mine was. I didn't necessarily learn a lot more because it covered a lot of energy and analytical subjects I already knew a lot about, but it has been helpful in other ways.

College degrees can be career-oriented (engineering, nursing, music), but that's not the whole point of it. I'd argue most college students don't really know what they want to do with their careers (I certainly didn't) or change their mind multiple times even if they think they do, so making majors career focused is kind of pointless. Internships exist for college students to see what professions they're interested are really all about.

If you want a career that doesn't require a substantial amount of education then you can get that at a community college.

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Topic: A Discussion of Calculus, and maybe Physics, and AP classes and college

CWSooner

Re: A Discussion of Calculus, and maybe Physics, and AP classes and college

CWSooner

Re: A Discussion of Calculus, and maybe Physics, and AP classes and college

betarhoalphadelta

Re: A Discussion of Calculus, and maybe Physics, and AP classes and college

MichiFan87

Re: A Discussion of Calculus, and maybe Physics, and AP classes and college

CWSooner

Re: A Discussion of Calculus, and maybe Physics, and AP classes and college

Cincydawg

Re: A Discussion of Calculus, and maybe Physics, and AP classes and college

MichiFan87

Re: A Discussion of Calculus, and maybe Physics, and AP classes and college

CWSooner

Re: A Discussion of Calculus, and maybe Physics, and AP classes and college

847badgerfan

Re: A Discussion of Calculus, and maybe Physics, and AP classes and college

847badgerfan

Re: A Discussion of Calculus, and maybe Physics, and AP classes and college

CWSooner

Re: A Discussion of Calculus, and maybe Physics, and AP classes and college

847badgerfan

Re: A Discussion of Calculus, and maybe Physics, and AP classes and college

Cincydawg

Re: A Discussion of Calculus, and maybe Physics, and AP classes and college

MichiFan87

Re: A Discussion of Calculus, and maybe Physics, and AP classes and college