2023 Michigan Season Thread

[SuperMario]

idk, all the arguments that the NCAA is just going after Harbaugh because they don't like him 'speaking truth to power' about NIL and such, and that the other B1G programs are trying to punish him/UM because they're jealous/scared of Michigan's success? I don't know if I've heard such from you, but I KNOW I have from both Mdot and Temp.

Those statements seem to suggest that these are politically-motivated attacks on Michigan and some have argued that they're being unfairly and uniquely singled out for these things despite rulebreaking going on elsewhere.

That to me screams victimhood.

Completely understand and agree with this take. I can't say a vast majority or not are taking this approach, but some certainly are. The reasonable UM fans I know personally aren't on this train. They just want to see the facts and if the facts are damning then punishment should be involved. The other part that has perked my interest and those in my circle is the other schools provide sign stealing assistance to Purdue. I think it's very different than what Stallions did, but conceptionally similar. The UM version if the media releases are accurate are probably worse.

I think there are UM fans being unreasonable and scream victimhood as you pointed out. I think there's also reasonable ones that are just annoyed by the amount of people looking to pile on every chance possible in a "haha" fashion. You my man, have had very reasonable and spot on takes, which certainly allows people to step back and consider other intelligent thoughts as their opinion takes shape with new info. Appreciate that about you. 

[SuperMario]

And bear in mind, I do know that Mdot's position isn't that Michigan are victims here. His is "f**k the panty-waisted NCAA b/c we're gonna do what the f**k we want, and f**k the other Big Ten loser programs who were too f**king stupid to be doing this too."

At least that's how I read him

haha.. Now that one truly made me grab my stomach laughing. 

[MrNubbz]

But OSU isn't America's Team

BASTAGE

[MikeDeTiger]

And bear in mind, I do know that Mdot's position isn't that Michigan are victims here. His is "f**k the panty-waisted NCAA b/c we're gonna do what the f**k we want, and f**k the other Big Ten loser programs who were too f**king stupid to be doing this too."

At least that's how I read him

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1tj2zJ2Wvg

[medinabuckeye1]

They are doing due process.  It's rare that a scandal is so poorly covered up that you learn of it in real time.  This is the punishment based on what is KNOWN AND PROVABLE.  There will be further punishment for what is KNOWN and not yet provable.

I tend to not trust the NCAA in this stuff, but for them to actively reach out to the Big Ten, after they way UM peacocked around their other pending Level I violations, makes me think they did the one thing that would make the NCAA actually be forced to punish one of their golden gooses.  At this point, UM needs the tv networks to save them.  And yet they are calling for a ban on watching ESPN over the fact that they...checks notes...reported on it.  The only thing potentially saving UM from a postseason ban is ESPN being pissed about paying billions of dollars just to not have one of the 5 biggest draws pulled on a rule violation...

And the strategy is to make that draw smaller.

This.  

IMHO, if this was Central Michigan instead of Michigan, they would already have a multi-year bowl-ban including THIS year.  

For all the screaming victimhood by Michigan's fans, the reality is the exact opposite.  

[medinabuckeye1]

@SuperMario 
I'm addressing this to you because I don't think Mdot and Temp are even remotely capable of rational discussion but this is something that I think is BAD news for Michigan:

When you think about the previous scandals that we've seen involving NCAA rules they are one of two things, either:

• Minor (cheeseburgers) stuff, or
• Major pay-to-play things but with the caveat that in these the actual violation was NOT committed by the University or anyone directly employed by the University.  

WRT #1 I didn't mean the "(cheeseburgers)" reference to demean Michigan.  We've seen lots of these types of minor practice time or dead period recruiting or whatever violations.  

WRT to pay-to-play things I think we (collectively) tend to misspeak.  Three examples that have come up repeatedly in this thread:

• Tattoos, 
• Auburn/Cam Newton
• Michigan Basketball / Ed Martin

We (collectively) typically say that Ohio State/Auburn/Michigan committed some violation.  In reality, as far as I know, that is incorrect in all three cases, at least technically:

Ohio State didn't trade bowl swag for tattoos, some local tattoo parlor owner did that. Ie, the violation was committed by a kid(s) and a tattoo parlor guy.  

Auburn didn't pay Cam Newton to play for them.  Some boosters made a massive contribution to Cam Newton's father's church for Cam Newton to play for Auburn.  Ie, the violation was committed by a kid (or arguably his father) and some private individuals.  

Michigan didn't cut checks to BB players.  Ed Marton did.  Ie, the violation was committed by a kid(s) and a private individual.  


Where I see this as a completely different situation and much more problematic for the University is that in this case the violation wasn't committed by a booster or a tattoo parlor guy.  The actual violation was committed by an employee of the University of Michigan.  

There is apparently sufficient evidence that neither the NCAA nor the B1G have any doubt that Connor Stallions, while employed by the University committed a violation.  Further, this isn't a "cheeseburger" violation involving an accidental timing issue or a $20 meal.  This was a premeditated and well organized violation of a clear NCAA rule.  

I still think it is at best questionable whether or not Michigan will be post-season eligible THIS year.  Frankly, I think the NCAA/B1G were hoping that Penn State would take them out so that they wouldn't have to.  As we approach the end of the season there are going to be people in Seattle, Eugene, Tuscaloosa, etc who are going to pressure the NCAA to knock Michigan out of the CFP.  There are only four ways left to do that:

• Maryland takes them out, or
• Ohio State takes them out, or
• The B1G-W Champion (probably Iowa) takes them out, or
• The NCAA or B1G takes them out.  

It is not inconceivable that other leagues and or schools could end up suing the NCAA to demand that they enforce their own rules.  


Honestly answer this:
If the situation were reversed and say Washington had been cheating*, how would you feel if Washington got one of the four CFP spots and Michigan ended up at #5?  

*Cheating:
You may find that characterization offensive but at this point the NCAA/B1G appear to have spoken.  Connor Stallions violated NCAA rules to the benefit of the University of Michigan Football Team in games played THIS year.  That cannot realistically be construed as anything other than cheating.  

[ELA]

Completely understand and agree with this take. I can't say a vast majority or not are taking this approach, but some certainly are. The reasonable UM fans I know personally aren't on this train. They just want to see the facts and if the facts are damning then punishment should be involved. The other part that has perked my interest and those in my circle is the other schools provide sign stealing assistance to Purdue. I think it's very different than what Stallions did, but conceptionally similar. The UM version if the media releases are accurate are probably worse.

I think there are UM fans being unreasonable and scream victimhood as you pointed out. I think there's also reasonable ones that are just annoyed by the amount of people looking to pile on every chance possible in a "haha" fashion. You my man, have had very reasonable and spot on takes, which certainly allows people to step back and consider other intelligent thoughts as their opinion takes shape with new info. Appreciate that about you.

This take is mostly everyone I graduated HS with, and didn't get into college, yet makes fun of other Big Ten academics compared to Michigan.  And also everyone on Michigan's payroll, up to the President.  Most UM alums I've talked to, are embarrassed.  More embarrassed by this than just not winning, but playing clean under RR and Hoke.  And Ari had a whole take about that as well.  

[FearlessF]

would the Big Ten instruct officials to call more penalties on Michigan and less on Michigan's opponent to cause them to lose a game?

Texas and OU seem to be in that question while leaving the Big 12

Penalties were pretty even vs PSU

[SuperMario]

This take is mostly everyone I graduated HS with, and didn't get into college, yet makes fun of other Big Ten academics compared to Michigan.  And also everyone on Michigan's payroll, up to the President.  Most UM alums I've talked to, are embarrassed.  More embarrassed by this than just not winning, but playing clean under RR and Hoke.  And Ari had a whole take about that as well. 

Which take? Not sure I fully understand what you’re saying here.

[SuperMario]

There is apparently sufficient evidence that neither the NCAA nor the B1G have any doubt that Connor Stallions, while employed by the University committed a violation.  Further, this isn't a "cheeseburger" violation involving an accidental timing issue or a $20 meal.  This was a premeditated and well organized violation of a clear NCAA rule. 

Your overall explanation and mindset, I completely agree with and understand what you're saying, where you're coming from and the most likely the reality of the situation. The verbiage used here I nearly completely agree with, especially stating "apparently." From the leaked ESPN reports it sounds like there is. That being said, we don't know for sure which is why I think saying the NCAA has no doubts is premature. I think they likely believe this is the case, but if there were "no doubts" i think the penalty would be harsher right off the bat. With the Tressel situation, there was no doubts (which i'll message you on directly and add some details on personally know on that topic.). I also agree with you that the Big10 is hoping for a natural Michigan loss. I would think the NCAA is more focused on $$ than making decisions, so their part I'm not convinced we know exactly where they stand.

Honestly answer this:
If the situation were reversed and say Washington had been cheating*, how would you feel if Washington got one of the four CFP spots and Michigan ended up at #5? 

You'll hate/dislike my response here lol. First, this scenario isnt likely. If Washington wins out, they'll be in for sure because either OSU or Michigan will lose, so it's somewhat irrelevant, but I also know that's not exactly your point. Ive asked myself this question and I have different perspectives. Michigan has really not had a game outside Penn State at this point. If Michigan wins out, which you can pretty much guarantee there's no sign stealing during their games that are actually a test, then I'm not sure how you can keep them out or be a different school that has 1 loss and complain that they're in. 

Additionally, if I'm a player at say Georgia, Michigan wins out and they aren't allowed in the CFB playoff, I'd love to win my title, but a small part of me would always be pissed we didn't get to settle it on the field and another team that didn't have a loss and technically was the #2 team, wasn't allowed to settle it on the field. (that's assuming Michigan were to win out.)

Again, I'm saying that with UM homer glasses. If this was OSU in the MIchigan scenario, I could still see how UGA players would want it to play out and beat them on the field. I also not saying that's the right way to handle it, but from a player perspective, that's what I would want.

From a coach/fan perspective, if I was a #5 team.. I'd be blowing up the NCAA phone and demanding to know exactly what they have. I'd argue we have a legal right to know and it's damning enough and clear evidence that the line was WAY crossed, I'd want to be in.

*Cheating:
You may find that characterization offensive but at this point the NCAA/B1G appear to have spoken.  Connor Stallions violated NCAA rules to the benefit of the University of Michigan Football Team in games played THIS year.  That cannot realistically be construed as anything other than cheating. 

Here's the other part of my answer I know you'll dislike lol.. but again, i'm trying to be reasonable and also looking for reasonable people to have honest conversation that are true football fans so that the opposing view helps shape a healthy perspective. Some of the posts here are just far from that.. some are helping do that.

That being said.. keep looping back to the former Purdue coach that came clean to say OSU and Rutgers gave a complete breakdown of Michigan coaches calling plays, what that sign meant and yet the only responses I see are "UM fans are just deflecting because sign sharing is legal and common." I'm really having a tough time wrapping my head around how that is so much more acceptable than Stallions sending guys to games to record the signs. Yes I get it. The in-person thing "breaks the rules." But do we really think that is far worse cheating than other coaching staffs going through video and pairing it with what they learned in person during the game to share it with their rival's future opponent? Is that seriously just ok but Stallions 4th cousin recording on his cell phone is blatantly far worse and disgusting cheating and what the coaches provided is straight ethical and part of the game? If this part weren't a reality, I honestly think I'd see so much of this situation and most of the posters here that UM is simply trying to control the narrative and distract people. But this part of the reality, especially since it was a former Purdue coach that brought it to light and provided proof... this is the part that rubs me the wrong way when so many scream CHEATERS and follow it up with.. yeah this is legal stop deflecting....if any of it is cheating, it should all be cheating.

[Honestbuckeye]

Michigan and Harbaugh's attorneys argued Wednesday that recent evidence of other schools engaging in schemes to learn the Wolverines' playcalling signs made it clear that the team did not maintain an exceptional competitive advantage through any of its staff's efforts. They also noted the commissioner could be setting a difficult precedent if he were going to use the sportsmanship policy to punish any program or coach who was widely accused of stealing signals.

Petitti wrote Friday that the Big Ten has not received any information about other schools using "impermissible advanced in-person scouting, let alone a scheme of the size and scale like the one at issue here."

[betarhoalphadelta]

That being said.. keep looping back to the former Purdue coach that came clean to say OSU and Rutgers gave a complete breakdown of Michigan coaches calling plays, what that sign meant and yet the only responses I see are "UM fans are just deflecting because sign sharing is legal and common." I'm really having a tough time wrapping my head around how that is so much more acceptable than Stallions sending guys to games to record the signs. 

Cool. Let's ban both Purdue and Michigan from the CFP...

[Mdot21]

Cool. Let's ban both Purdue and Michigan from the CFP...

Purdue doing a good enough job of that with their play on the field…

As for Michigan….I’m over talking about it. How many times can ya beat a dead horse? 

Just gonna wait to see what happens with the hearing and then what the NCAA does in like 3 years. 

[FearlessF]

Cool. Let's ban both Purdue and Michigan from the CFP...

and the big ten champ game

the issue is, did Michigan cheat?

not did Purdue cheat, not did another program cheat, not did it give Michigan an advantage
this is ALL deflection

did michigan cheat???

I'm guessing the overwhelming evidence shows that Michigan cheated!!!!

Cheaters get punishment.  I hope.