header pic

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


Author

Topic: 2023 Michigan Season Thread

 (Read 77553 times)

Mdot21

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 14379
  • Liked:
Re: 2023 Michigan Season Thread
« Reply #1624 on: November 09, 2023, 05:15:13 PM »
maybe Lane Kiffin will take some media heat off Jeem....good job Lane!


https://twitter.com/FOS/status/1722667736227021054?s=20

Mdot21

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 14379
  • Liked:
Re: 2023 Michigan Season Thread
« Reply #1625 on: November 09, 2023, 05:17:01 PM »
by the way I agree with Lane....dumbass soft pussy ass kid needed an ass chewing. just that you know how the media is....especially when it comes to things like "mental health" and "gender" and of course race.


SuperMario

  • Starter
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 1270
  • Liked:
Re: 2023 Michigan Season Thread
« Reply #1626 on: November 09, 2023, 05:33:12 PM »
Also not asked, but here's my thought.

I don't agree with a blanket statement that the head coach is culpable for everything that happens within a program. There are plenty of areas where wrongdoing can occur that a head coach can plausibly say not only that they didn't know, but that there was no way they "should have known", which is what this concept is stating. It's saying the head coach ALWAYS "should have known" what's going on everywhere.

However, I think in this case, it's something where the head coach "should have known" what Stalions was doing.

Stipulating that what we believe we know (Stalions was working with the OC/DC on the sideline interpreting opponent signs and communicating that to the coordinator before plays) is accurate, it immediately raises a ton of red flags that a coach should be trying to understand how Stalions acquired that knowledge. This is one of those areas where "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is" comes to mind. I would think that nearly any plausible explanation other than what he was actually doing of how Stalions was able to decipher opponent signal systems would immediately raise the question of "if this dude can do it via legitimate means, wouldn't EVERY team be doing the same?" After all, Stalions doesn't seem to me to have the resume of being so ridiculously smart that he's got a unicorn superpower that nobody else could replicate.

To me, it's the sort of thing where some skeezy guy approaches you in a van and has high-end speakers he's selling for $100/pair. You know those speakers retail for $500 ea. You can just accept that he's got extra inventory he's looking to unload for cheap, or you can be the adult and realize those speakers are either stolen or counterfeit. A dishonest man buys those speakers and tells himself "wow, what a great deal I just got!" An honest man walks away.

To me, this is a situation where a head coach should have known that this was too good to be true w/o breaking any rules.
You've had really good takes on this topic to be honest. I think there's only 1 of 3 realities in this situation:

1) Stallions came to harbaugh or parts of the coaching staff a couple years ago, outlined everything he wanted to do, got full support. Program helped setup the cover. When this came about, they distanced themselves immediately and he will be the scapegoat as they try to avoid the penalties. They're all guilty and crossed the line.

2) Stallions came to the staff and said he's a master decoder of signs. He claims with technology and broadcasts nowadays, he found a way to watch all the videos, analyze signs and provide an edge no one else has. They have no idea he is going or paying someone to be the one recording everything and they thought this kid just found an edge no one else had every thought of because of his Navy background. 

3) They not sure exactly how Stallions does it, they know something is being down they probably don't want to know about, so they don't dig in further because after they looked into it, they felt it was somewhat of a gray area anyways. No serious consideration of future events believing that so many programs are attempting to steal signs, so why would they be singled out, even though there was some red flags, which is why they didn't want to know more.

Could be more options than that, but for me those are the most likely and I think 1 deserves the harshest penalty. 3 still deserves penalty.. Will there be any proof that gives us confidence in where it was? Not likely.. Will be interesting to see how it plays out, but I think the only way your description doesn't line up is if it's #2. It's possible, but I have no idea what's most likely at this point. 

betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12302
  • Liked:
Re: 2023 Michigan Season Thread
« Reply #1627 on: November 09, 2023, 05:44:01 PM »
The B1G presented Michigan with evidence that Stallions bought tickets to future Michigan opponents' games and that those seats were used by people who appeared to record the sidelines during the games.  Both attending the games (advance scouting) and recording the signals (using video to steal signs) are violations of the agreed upon rules of the game.

It's unclear whether the prohibition on videotaping an opponent only applies during the game you're playing against that opponent. 

But either way, it's immaterial. Advance in-person scouting is verboten whether you utilize video or not. 

SuperMario

  • Starter
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 1270
  • Liked:
Re: 2023 Michigan Season Thread
« Reply #1628 on: November 09, 2023, 05:48:25 PM »
Michigan has to be banned from the post-season THIS YEAR.  The integrity of the game is at stake.  CFP spots are a finite resource.  That limited resource should not be given to a program known to have cheated at the expense of some other program. 

I know that the Michigan "men" here are going to think that I'm saying this because it could benefit my team but I have two answers to that:

  • The integrity of the game is at issue here, that is bigger than Michigan or Ohio State or even the rivalry. 
  • I strongly doubt that it would impact tOSU anyway.  Ohio State will either beat Michigan in which case it is a moot point or they will lose to Michigan in which case they probably wouldn't make the CFP anyway.  The impact here is most likely on FSU, Texas, Washington, or Oregon.  Those schools should not suffer for Michigan's cheating. 
Man is that a stretch. How about integrity of humanity and not punishing people before proper due diligence and discovery of all the facts are given proper time. There's nowhere near enough proof that this should be the reality. It's still not adequately determined if third parties in the stands videoing future opponents is even violation of the rules, which so much of the "death penalty" outcome would depend on. If that's him at CMU, that's a huge problem yet that hasn't been 100% proven yet either. Sure looks like him, but concrete proof isn't there.

SuperMario

  • Starter
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 1270
  • Liked:
Re: 2023 Michigan Season Thread
« Reply #1629 on: November 09, 2023, 05:51:00 PM »

But either way, it's immaterial. Advance in-person scouting is verboten whether you utilize video or not.
By staff. What if it's not staff?

Trust me, I'm not saying it's right, but I'm not sure it's a violation of the written rule either. I could be wrong there and certainly open to better legal feedback of the breakdown of the rules, but from what i've seen, it's a somewhat vague area of the rules.  Doesn't make it right either.

betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12302
  • Liked:
Re: 2023 Michigan Season Thread
« Reply #1630 on: November 09, 2023, 05:52:20 PM »
You've had really good takes on this topic to be honest. I think there's only 1 of 3 realities in this situation:

1) Stallions came to harbaugh or parts of the coaching staff a couple years ago, outlined everything he wanted to do, got full support. Program helped setup the cover. When this came about, they distanced themselves immediately and he will be the scapegoat as they try to avoid the penalties. They're all guilty and crossed the line.

2) Stallions came to the staff and said he's a master decoder of signs. He claims with technology and broadcasts nowadays, he found a way to watch all the videos, analyze signs and provide an edge no one else has. They have no idea he is going or paying someone to be the one recording everything and they thought this kid just found an edge no one else had every thought of because of his Navy background.

3) They not sure exactly how Stallions does it, they know something is being down they probably don't want to know about, so they don't dig in further because after they looked into it, they felt it was somewhat of a gray area anyways. No serious consideration of future events believing that so many programs are attempting to steal signs, so why would they be singled out, even though there was some red flags, which is why they didn't want to know more.

Could be more options than that, but for me those are the most likely and I think 1 deserves the harshest penalty. 3 still deserves penalty.. Will there be any proof that gives us confidence in where it was? Not likely.. Will be interesting to see how it plays out, but I think the only way your description doesn't line up is if it's #2. It's possible, but I have no idea what's most likely at this point.
Right. For the most part we agree.

Obviously #1 is horrible all around. And that could be uncovered if there is evidence of Michigan reimbursing Stalions for the game tickets or something like that. 

#3 is IMHO a lack of institutional control thing. It's not THAT much better than #1, because you "should have known" there was something nefarious but you didn't really decide to look into it so you maintain plausible deniability. 

#2 is the only way the UM brass gets around this. But that presupposes they did their due diligence to investigate what he was doing, and that Stalions is just that effective of a con man that he could actually snow them on it being legitimate. It seems a little incredible, but anyone who has a 600 page Michigan Manifesto is probably the exact sort of person who might be able to pull that off. 

Bear in mind I don't believe there is any gray area in the advance in-person scouting ban. I don't think there's a gray area where a staffer buying tickets and having people do it on his behalf is defensible as a sort of thing like this:


MrNubbz

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 17200
  • Liked:
Re: 2023 Michigan Season Thread
« Reply #1631 on: November 09, 2023, 06:02:53 PM »
I think Petitti just got wacked on his little pee pee.
Kind of reminds you of Booger on a sleep over doesn't it?
Suburbia:Where they tear out the trees & then name streets after them.

medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 8935
  • Liked:
Re: 2023 Michigan Season Thread
« Reply #1632 on: November 09, 2023, 06:10:14 PM »
Bear in mind I don't believe there is any gray area in the advance in-person scouting ban. I don't think there's a gray area where a staffer buying tickets and having people do it on his behalf is defensible as a sort of thing like this.
This.

SM, note that I'm comparing the DEFENSE, not the crime. This defense, to me, is like hiring a hit man to kill your wife then saying "I'm not guilty, I didn't personally pull the trigger."

SuperMario

  • Starter
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 1270
  • Liked:
Re: 2023 Michigan Season Thread
« Reply #1633 on: November 09, 2023, 06:21:45 PM »

Bear in mind I don't believe there is any gray area in the advance in-person scouting ban. I don't think there's a gray area where a staffer buying tickets and having people do it on his behalf is defensible as a sort of thing like this:


Lol. The Seinfeld gif is amazing!!

I think the part you mentioned is the only area my current stance rested in a slightly different place. Could admittedly be homerism.

There’s also laws out there I disagree with from a moral place, but my moral standard doesn’t mean a legal line was crossed. That’s where I’m sort of sitting back to see how that part plays out. I don’t think sending guys to video thst aren’t staff is right, but it’s still a little fuzzy if it was a true violation of the rule.

betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12302
  • Liked:
Re: 2023 Michigan Season Thread
« Reply #1634 on: November 09, 2023, 06:59:36 PM »
I think the part you mentioned is the only area my current stance rested in a slightly different place. Could admittedly be homerism.

There’s also laws out there I disagree with from a moral place, but my moral standard doesn’t mean a legal line was crossed. That’s where I’m sort of sitting back to see how that part plays out. I don’t think sending guys to video thst aren’t staff is right, but it’s still a little fuzzy if it was a true violation of the rule.
I don't think it's fuzzy at all. 

If the activity is directed by Michigan staff, it effectively makes anyone who engages in it an agent of the institution. 

There are potentially gray areas if someone does this WITHOUT direction from Michigan staff. But that's not the case here. 

MaximumSam

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 13124
  • Liked:
Re: 2023 Michigan Season Thread
« Reply #1635 on: November 09, 2023, 07:08:00 PM »

https://twitter.com/nycsouthpaw/status/1722752235010982276

Toms Mars (Harbaugh's attorney) copying MGoBlog posts in his letter to the Big Ten. This is objectively the best scandal.

ELA

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 20361
  • Liked:
Re: 2023 Michigan Season Thread
« Reply #1636 on: November 09, 2023, 07:08:51 PM »


 

Support the Site!
Purchase of every item listed here DIRECTLY supports the site.