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Topic: 2023 Michigan Season Thread

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SuperMario

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Re: 2023 Michigan Season Thread
« Reply #1568 on: November 08, 2023, 04:41:18 PM »
The NCAA changed it from a rebuttable presumption that the coach knew everything to a fact that the coach is responsible for everything.  So that's why proving what Harbaugh did or didn't know is irrelevant.
How do you feel about it? I'm still undecided and not because it's Harbaugh and Michigan. If one of my guys secretly broke the law and it took down me and my family, i'd be pissed, especially if he did it very discretely. At the same time I understand accountability. Very fine line and curious your take. 

medinabuckeye1

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Re: 2023 Michigan Season Thread
« Reply #1569 on: November 08, 2023, 04:55:04 PM »
How do you feel about it? I'm still undecided and not because it's Harbaugh and Michigan. If one of my guys secretly broke the law and it took down me and my family, i'd be pissed, especially if he did it very discretely. At the same time I understand accountability. Very fine line and curious your take.
You asked for @ELA 's take not mine but I'll give you mine anyway:

This position has nothing to do with Harbaugh/Michigan/the current scandal.

The big problem, IMHO, is that the NCAA isn't a court and thus lacks subpoena power. They are enforcing agreed upon rules not criminal laws. Consequently, the answer from basically every institution has been to blame a low-level staffer and protect the HC.

An example of an employee of yours (or mine, or anyone else's) is different because if an employee of yours defrauded someone (for example) the courts could and would issue subpoenas and search warrants and they would be able to determine with a reasonable degree of certainty whether or not you were behind the scheme.

Additionally, if this were a criminal issue Stallions would be in big trouble with (apparently) a mountain of evidence against him so the prototypical Prosecutor move would be to offer him either immunity or at least a reduced sentence in exchange for testimony against any higher-ups that directed his illegal activities.

In this case, Stallions is likely radioactive from an NCAA perspective anyway so his NCAA-related career is over and the NCAA has nothing to offer.

For the above reasons, I think that the NCAA policy of making the HC responsible is necessary whether you or I like it or not and I say that in the knowledge that it could be Ryan Day next time.

Honestbuckeye

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Re: 2023 Michigan Season Thread
« Reply #1570 on: November 08, 2023, 05:38:19 PM »
And it's still yet to be determined legally if Stallions paid 3rd parties to record future opposition sidelines if that is actually clearly covered in the rules and violated them. I would agree if Stallions was on the CMU sidelines, that's cut and dry, but it's still not 100% confirmed that was him either. I think it's likely, but no confirmation it was him.

So yeah, when you scream cheater over and over, yet it's not actually determined that Stallions system actually broke the rules or it's in the gray area, people want to dig in and fight back. It's not deflection, it's simply not accepting that's it's clear as day as some vested interested media sources and rival fans are claiming. So you're bullet points aren't being argued, but what is is proof the actions are considered cheating according to the rule book.

Secondly, do you believe third parties videoing on their phones is worse that coaching staff of other schools, who are far more educated on the game, capturing all the signs and sharing them with other staffs in the conference? If Michigan staff called up Georgia last and gave them all the OSU signs, would you think that's less impactful than Georgia assistant bought a ticket for a kid to sit in the stands of the osu v michigan game to record the OSU coaches with his cell phone and ship it back to them?
First of all- the majority of screaming “ cheater” is coming from the Michigan posters here, including you now.  Think about that for a minute. The University of Michigan football program is undercurrent investigation, and about to be officially under a second investigation, by the NCAA  . 
Please don’t be angry with everyone else because of that. Please don’t be angry with the fact that a former, now terminated employee of the University of Michigan is under FBI investigation for computer crimes.  But here you guys said calling everybody else cheaters.  Ok. 

You ask what evidence I have that those listed items that you and nobody disagrees with our violations. Although I’d like to say” are you fucking kidding me,” I’ll just say look at my paragraph above. And ask yourself is the NCAA investigating because this could be a great area or are they already convinced that rules were broken?

Now you’re saying it might be a gray area. In other words, if there is a law and you commit a crime, do you have an out if you actually send somebody else to commit the crime in your place.  I know you don’t believe that for one second you are better than that.

Your last question is easy.  Sign stealing is legal on the field between two teams were playing each other at the time they are playing each other. Everybody knows this.  Think about why that is? The answer is obvious. It’s because it’s very ineffective and knowledge gained on a good day is marginal. 

If you go to a game, you’re not playing in and record the signs and the place that go with them. You now have an ability to spend endless hours, deciphering the information and figuring out very specifically what the play calls and signals are and who the hot signaler is.


If  Rutgers, or Purdue or Ohio State went to a game and filmed Michigan’s signs, or if they film them during their own games, and then deciphered them and pass them to a future Michigan opponent- that would be heinous and an obvious violation of the rules. It would be doing exactly what Michigan is accused of doing. Just like stallions having Tennessee filmed and sending that film to South Carolina, which is what the guy who admits to filming for Stalions also admits that he did.

F, Ohio, State, Bourbon, Purdue, or Rutgers, or any other team, just shared what they were able to pick up during the game, which is completely legal, and pass it to a future Michigan opponent, not only is that not illegal. Based onwhat has been presented, but also is known to be very common place. In other words, it is a big nothing burger, on a good day, and probably with an empty bun. 


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ELA

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Re: 2023 Michigan Season Thread
« Reply #1571 on: November 08, 2023, 06:02:22 PM »
How do you feel about it? I'm still undecided and not because it's Harbaugh and Michigan. If one of my guys secretly broke the law and it took down me and my family, i'd be pissed, especially if he did it very discretely. At the same time I understand accountability. Very fine line and curious your take.
I think they thought they were trying to make their lives easier.  They don't have subpoena power, so trying to prove these things, when it was obvious the coach knew was a pain.  And the law of unintended consequences meant they were naturally immediately confronted with this.

I can't imagine Harbaugh knew.

But did someone higher up than Stallions know, or sure should have, yes.  My BIL was a walk on at Michigan for one year, and then a student assistant for his other 3 years. All under Hoke.  He said if he had even bumped into a coordinator, he would be fired.  To be in their ear was a whole level above them, that even position coaches had limited ability to do that in game.  I think they probably "knew" but didn't want to know, but that was probably their job to know.  But honestly, if Harbaugh knew, he wasn't paying attention to the correct things.

SuperMario

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Re: 2023 Michigan Season Thread
« Reply #1572 on: November 08, 2023, 06:18:38 PM »

If  Rutgers, or Purdue or Ohio State went to a game and filmed Michigan’s signs, or if they film them during their own games, and then deciphered them and pass them to a future Michigan opponent- that would be heinous and an obvious violation of the rules. It would be doing exactly what Michigan is accused of doing. 


F, Ohio, State, Bourbon, Purdue, or Rutgers, or any other team, just shared what they were able to pick up during the game, which is completely legal, and pass it to a future Michigan opponent, not only is that not illegal. Based onwhat has been presented, but also is known to be very common place. In other words, it is a big nothing burger, on a good day, and probably with an empty bun.
I have so much more to add and will later tonight, but what? Maybe I have "reading comprehension." or maybe you don't really know where you stand and you're taking different sides in different paragraphs. 

Honestbuckeye

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Re: 2023 Michigan Season Thread
« Reply #1573 on: November 08, 2023, 06:30:45 PM »
I have so much more to add and will later tonight, but what? Maybe I have "reading comprehension." or maybe you don't really know where you stand and you're taking different sides in different paragraphs.
I will repeat it. 
- filming future opponents signals.  Illegal.  For good reasons.  Cheating.  

- trying to learn, decode your current opponent’s signals live.  Legal. For good reasons.  Highly ineffective 

-sharing what you know about a team with another team, if gained legally,   Totally fine and incredibly common.  
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
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SuperMario

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Re: 2023 Michigan Season Thread
« Reply #1574 on: November 08, 2023, 06:33:40 PM »
I will repeat it.
- filming future opponents signals.  Illegal.  For good reasons.  Cheating. 

- trying to learn, decode your current opponent’s signals live.  Legal. For good reasons.  Highly ineffective

-sharing what you know about a team with another team, if gained legally,  Totally fine and incredibly common. 
You’re so contradictory with what you need to fit. So Stallions was illegal because it gave Michigan so much time because it was so complex and time to prepare was so important.. 

other teams “deciphering” and passing on is fine.. doesn’t matter about your earlier argument about the time factor. Completely consistent and it’s just me that can’t comprehend it. 

Honestbuckeye

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Re: 2023 Michigan Season Thread
« Reply #1575 on: November 08, 2023, 07:08:45 PM »
You’re so contradictory with what you need to fit. So Stallions was illegal because it gave Michigan so much time because it was so complex and time to prepare was so important..

other teams “deciphering” and passing on is fine.. doesn’t matter about your earlier argument about the time factor. Completely consistent and it’s just me that can’t comprehend it.
Apparently so. 
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
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Temp430

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Re: 2023 Michigan Season Thread
« Reply #1576 on: November 08, 2023, 07:22:46 PM »
Michigan has sent the Big Ten a 10 page response.  Comically, one of the points made was that the Big Ten has provided so little evidence it’s not possible to refute the allegations.

I think Petitti just got wacked on his little pee pee.
A decade of Victory over Penn State.

All in since 1969

Temp430

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A decade of Victory over Penn State.

All in since 1969

Honestbuckeye

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Re: 2023 Michigan Season Thread
« Reply #1578 on: November 08, 2023, 07:52:42 PM »
Michigan has sent the Big Ten a 10 page response.  Comically, one of the points made was that the Big Ten has provided so little evidence it’s not possible to refute the allegations.

I think Petitti just got wacked on his little pee pee.
I ( like everyone else ) has read the response.

Not an attorney- so can only say that I was a bit shocked how weak it seems.

It’s basically procedural.  No denying that they did this.  None.

just procedural

- the commissioner doesn’t have the authority to punish us. ( your not the boss of me)
-be careful about going down this path ( we are more powerful than all of you combined and the big ten- and we will burn it all down)
- just because we did this, it doesn’t mean it gave us an advantage ( it’s a stupid rule that we repeatedly broke)
- because we have a diagram of our own signals on Purdue letterhead, it shows you how it’s no big deal ( it may be cheating- but everybody does it)
-punishment this early could cause irreparable harm ( can’t you just drag this out and let us see how far our team gets, we don’t mind if we have to vacate it later, and please just ignore the harm our actions already caused to others)

- it’s almost like they had first year law students formulate their response by reading UM forums. 

If I had to guess, Pettiti is breathing a sigh of relief.  Was probably expecting some rebuttal of the evidence he had been given, and just got more deflection and rationalization of their rule breaking. 
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
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Honestbuckeye

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Re: 2023 Michigan Season Thread
« Reply #1579 on: November 08, 2023, 08:01:25 PM »
Schiano, bend over and grab your ankles.

https://www.on3.com/college/rutgers-scarlet-knights/news/greg-schiano-ticked-off-rutgers-purdue-sign-stealing-michigan-ohio-state-report/
You’re still dreaming.  I think you live in alternate reality from the real world.  

nothing illegal about and in fact, it is as common. In CFB as marching bands.  
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
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ELA

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Re: 2023 Michigan Season Thread
« Reply #1580 on: November 08, 2023, 08:37:55 PM »
I think this is what it boils down to.  I would simply accept a statement from Michigan that they are no better than any other football factory in America.  No worse, but no better.  And any future morality or superiority claim would result in a one year postseason ban per attempt.  That's what has turned the entire conference against them.  Not that anyone is scared of them.  But that the team takes the field to Darth Vader claiming it's the greatest university in the world.  Maybe.  But that has exactly zero to do with the football team you are about to root for, or the large majority of the people rooting for them.  Just accept that you are the same as Auburn, and enjoy your winning, and move along


https://twitter.com/ChrisVannini/status/1722398069323395429?s=20

SuperMario

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Re: 2023 Michigan Season Thread
« Reply #1581 on: November 08, 2023, 10:57:56 PM »
You asked for @ELA 's take not mine but I'll give you mine anyway:

This position has nothing to do with Harbaugh/Michigan/the current scandal.

The big problem, IMHO, is that the NCAA isn't a court and thus lacks subpoena power. They are enforcing agreed upon rules not criminal laws. Consequently, the answer from basically every institution has been to blame a low-level staffer and protect the HC.

An example of an employee of yours (or mine, or anyone else's) is different because if an employee of yours defrauded someone (for example) the courts could and would issue subpoenas and search warrants and they would be able to determine with a reasonable degree of certainty whether or not you were behind the scheme.

Additionally, if this were a criminal issue Stallions would be in big trouble with (apparently) a mountain of evidence against him so the prototypical Prosecutor move would be to offer him either immunity or at least a reduced sentence in exchange for testimony against any higher-ups that directed his illegal activities.

In this case, Stallions is likely radioactive from an NCAA perspective anyway so his NCAA-related career is over and the NCAA has nothing to offer.

For the above reasons, I think that the NCAA policy of making the HC responsible is necessary whether you or I like it or not and I say that in the knowledge that it could be Ryan Day next time.
Pretty solid response. And for the record, I may not always like your take, but I still respect it.

PS - any chance you went to the Medina game tonight? I should have remembered to ask if you were going. I brought my two oldest and they had a blast.

 

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