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Topic: 2023 Michigan Season Thread

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MrNubbz

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Re: 2023 Michigan Season Thread
« Reply #1442 on: November 06, 2023, 10:08:07 AM »
I believe the one "insider" you're probably referring to is Chris Balas currently at On3, who used to work at Rivals but got fired. The guy is a total asshat and clown that just makes sh*t up and has no sources.

B1G can't just suspend Jeem because AD's and coaches are sore losers and butthurt and scared. B1G bylaws state- have to do an investigation. You aren't doing an investigation in a weekend...

refer to by section 10.3.1...

https://bigten.org/documents/2022/11/23/2022_23_Big_Ten_Handbook_Sportsmanship.pdf
Don't even start yapping about sore losers/butthurt then discuss by bi-laws when blatant felonies were skirted and not reported last season 
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Temp430

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Re: 2023 Michigan Season Thread
« Reply #1443 on: November 06, 2023, 10:08:55 AM »
I read they would be forced to forfeit all bowl wins over the past few years.
What bowl wins?
A decade of Victory over Penn State.

All in since 1969

Cincydawg

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Re: 2023 Michigan Season Thread
« Reply #1444 on: November 06, 2023, 10:09:18 AM »
It's been a while since I was a sore loser, so there is that at least.

Honestbuckeye

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Re: 2023 Michigan Season Thread
« Reply #1445 on: November 06, 2023, 10:31:38 AM »
I read they would be forced to forfeit all bowl wins over the past few years.
In my opinion, that is inevitable.  ( wins and BIG Titled)

I believe a lot of Michigan people realize that and that includes fans and administration.

That is not the fight now. Their fight now is to delay the punishment such that they can continue with their magical season, which could end up with a national championship. They don’t care if it all gets vacated later.
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
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MikeDeTiger

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Re: 2023 Michigan Season Thread
« Reply #1446 on: November 06, 2023, 10:40:34 AM »
If you can steal defensive signals, can you also steal an actual defense?  Because somebody definitely stole ours.  MIA since 9/3/23.

I'm just gonna go ahead and blame Michigan if it's alright with everyone here.  

Cincydawg

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Re: 2023 Michigan Season Thread
« Reply #1447 on: November 06, 2023, 10:43:29 AM »
So long as bowl win forfeits don't go back to 2015, they should be fine.

Honestbuckeye

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Re: 2023 Michigan Season Thread
« Reply #1448 on: November 06, 2023, 10:53:42 AM »
So let me get this straight. Your argument is Michigan sign stealing impacts players, CJ is dominant against everyone else including the NFL, but just magically “sucked” that day and the sarcasm part is claiming he didn’t actually suck that day? Then what possibly could your argument have been about the sign stealing?

Can’t play it both ways my man. But yeah, I have reading comprehension problems.
Parsing my words and playing word salad now. 

I will just tell you my opinion on the whole thing, and I believe it is very reasonable. You are free to disagree with it.

IF ( emphasis on IF) Michigan used the recording of their opponents play calls it gave them an unfair advantage, created a not level playing field. 

They didn’t need to- they were, and are, a really good team

But it impacted plays, results, perceptions of players, awards, draft choices and this is true of every opponent they played.  It impacted who got into the CFP.  In other words- very far reaching impact. Recruiting is another huge impact.

I used Stroud’s Heisman journey as but 1 example. Does the knowledge of play calls impact who won the game last year?  We can debate that forever- but we would be missing the bigger point.  And that is- we may never know, but the question itself is legitimate.  That’s the point. 

I will defend Harbaugh here.  To my knowledge, nothing has been reported or leaked that suggests that he was aware.  So I think suspending him at this point, barring some evidence, that the NCAA a shared with the Big Ten commissioner that we are not aware of, is premature. I think they are still investigating that.

But this chorus of people saying it needs to be fully investigated, are missing something here. First of all the question of whether this activity took place is its own question, and I would opine that that part of the investigation has been going on for a long time, and that case has been fully proven to the powers that be.  Unless you’re going to make the argument that there are no receipts for these 35 games in 17 different opponent stadiums, and there is no video of him or somebody video recording the entire game of the opponent.  It is my opinion that that has been proven beyond the doubt and people in the know have that evidence.

So again, if that is the case, this crap about “due process” is nothing but crap. If you already know what happened, even if you still aren’t sure who knew about it on the Michigan staff, you can take action based on that alone.  I would’ve had that due process is a bunch of baloney if you’re not cooperating with the investigation and our stonewalling, which is obviously what Michigan is doing here. 

It’s my belief that the commissioner of the Big Ten is in possession of this evidence, and wants to do something now based on the impact it has on the season and continues to have in this season. That is where this is unprecedented. Never before ever had potential endgame cheating be discovered in the middle of a season.

how it plays out in the short run?  I won’t venture to guess.  If they have that evidence and allow Michigan to continue, it’s going to look pretty stupid if it gets vacated later.

I do have a high level of confidence that they’re 21, 22 Big Ten titles, and all of those wins will be vacated by the NCAA at some point in the future 

Everything I said, above is just common sense, one person is opinion, but is very reasonable, set a of thought processes.  Fire way on what you disagree with.



Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
-Mark Twain

MrNubbz

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Re: 2023 Michigan Season Thread
« Reply #1449 on: November 06, 2023, 10:59:21 AM »
If you can steal defensive signals, can you also steal an actual defense?  Because somebody definitely stole ours.  MIA since 9/3/23.

I'm just gonna go ahead and blame Michigan if it's alright with everyone here. 
 :cool2:  Of course just don't make it so obvious like they do 
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ELA

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Re: 2023 Michigan Season Thread
« Reply #1450 on: November 06, 2023, 11:07:17 AM »
this is a lazy, stupid take.

They went from 10-2 good to CFP good because they got MASSIVE upgrades at the QB position, RB position, OL coach, and DC. JJ McCarthy is likely going to be a 1st rd pick. The last time Michigan had one of those at QB was in 1987. He is LIGHT YEARS better and far more talented than fcking mediocre turds like Jake Rudock or Wilton Speight. Blake Corum and Donovan Edwards are both massive upgrades over backs like De'Veon Smith or Karran Higdon or Chris Evans. The caliber of player they've been playing with in the offensive backfield at QB-RB is LIGHT YEARS above where it has been in the past. Throw on top of that they struck gold with hiring Sherrone Moore in 2021 to coach OL- a guy that is going to be a future HC in the P5 and is maybe the best OL coach in the nation. Then throw on top of that they got rid of Don Brown's bum ass and hired a pair of NFL 3-4 DC's from the Ravens from Jeem's brother.

Give me a fcking break. Failing to cover against Purdue was meaningless. Michigan was covering and up 35 points until Purdue scored a cheap meaningless TD with all it's starters in the game with 18 seconds left in the game. Purdue only scored 6 points in non-garbage time. And they were extremely lucky to get the 6 points they got. Purdue got 3 points because a punt hit a Michigan player in the back and Purdue recovered the ball in the red area and already in FG range. 3 more points came because Jeem decided to go for it on his own 35 yard line on a 4th and 1 with a shotgun dive run and failed to convert.

lazy stupid takes gonna lazy stupid take however.
No, lazy is thinking that if Michigan beats OSU this year, that means it never mattered.  Wouldn't be the first, or second time, Michigan benefitted off building a brand through cheating though, so I get why that would be tough to understand.

Again, nobody is saying Michigan only won because of this.  But the timeline sure lines up with them getting over the hump from 10-2 to CFP.  And that defense sure looks a lot different both times they were forced to face a team they didn't know in advance.

Honestbuckeye

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Re: 2023 Michigan Season Thread
« Reply #1451 on: November 06, 2023, 03:36:48 PM »
So now the NCAA has joined the investigation into Conor Stalions being in the CMU sideline, for MSU game this year. 

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/38833288/ncaa-joins-central-michigan-investigation-sideline-staffer

I saw this posted on another forum- you have to admit it’s funny!



Aw, c'mon. Everybody knows if you're wearing dark shades, no one can tell who you are.


Harbaugh himself is alleged to have told Stalions:


"Now go out and get yourself
Some thick black frames,
With the glass so dark
They won't even know your name".


Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
-Mark Twain

SuperMario

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Re: 2023 Michigan Season Thread
« Reply #1452 on: November 06, 2023, 04:07:02 PM »
Parsing my words and playing word salad now. 

I will just tell you my opinion on the whole thing, and I believe it is very reasonable. You are free to disagree with it.

IF ( emphasis on IF) Michigan used the recording of their opponents play calls it gave them an unfair advantage, created a not level playing field. 

They didn’t need to- they were, and are, a really good team

But it impacted plays, results, perceptions of players, awards, draft choices and this is true of every opponent they played.  It impacted who got into the CFP.  In other words- very far reaching impact. Recruiting is another huge impact.

I used Stroud’s Heisman journey as but 1 example. Does the knowledge of play calls impact who won the game last year?  We can debate that forever- but we would be missing the bigger point.  And that is- we may never know, but the question itself is legitimate.  That’s the point. 

I will defend Harbaugh here.  To my knowledge, nothing has been reported or leaked that suggests that he was aware.  So I think suspending him at this point, barring some evidence, that the NCAA a shared with the Big Ten commissioner that we are not aware of, is premature. I think they are still investigating that.

But this chorus of people saying it needs to be fully investigated, are missing something here. First of all the question of whether this activity took place is its own question, and I would opine that that part of the investigation has been going on for a long time, and that case has been fully proven to the powers that be.  Unless you’re going to make the argument that there are no receipts for these 35 games in 17 different opponent stadiums, and there is no video of him or somebody video recording the entire game of the opponent.  It is my opinion that that has been proven beyond the doubt and people in the know have that evidence.

So again, if that is the case, this crap about “due process” is nothing but crap. If you already know what happened, even if you still aren’t sure who knew about it on the Michigan staff, you can take action based on that alone.  I would’ve had that due process is a bunch of baloney if you’re not cooperating with the investigation and our stonewalling, which is obviously what Michigan is doing here. 

It’s my belief that the commissioner of the Big Ten is in possession of this evidence, and wants to do something now based on the impact it has on the season and continues to have in this season. That is where this is unprecedented. Never before ever had potential endgame cheating be discovered in the middle of a season.

how it plays out in the short run?  I won’t venture to guess.  If they have that evidence and allow Michigan to continue, it’s going to look pretty stupid if it gets vacated later.

I do have a high level of confidence that they’re 21, 22 Big Ten titles, and all of those wins will be vacated by the NCAA at some point in the future 

Everything I said, above is just common sense, one person is opinion, but is very reasonable, set a of thought processes.  Fire way on what you disagree with.
The funny part is that I actually don't disagree with much of what you're saying. I'm not sure about the high level of confidence of vacating wins because we still don't know what evidence there truly is. You could be spot on there, but high level of confidence on either side is something I'm not sure about yet. 

I do believe Michigan is pushing it off so that the focus on the rest of the season is letting this group of kid determine things on the field.  I get both sides of liking and disliking that.

Lastly my friend, when the sarcasm is possibly not used well and then it's fired off the person is a reading comprehension weakling, why would you expect anyone to sit quietly and not respond? I'm not playing word salad or overanalyzing.. Your sarcasm just wasn't clear based on the example given. So maybe I read it wrong? ok.. or maybe you typed it not perfectly clear.. the difference is I'm not going to fire back claiming you need to go have an english class for typing as that's sort of the approach back firing off about reading comprehension you took.

We have tended to see things very similar over the years even with controversial topics and i think we see this topic similar outside of a few areas of it...it's just the "cheating" screaming that gets under the skin just a little but maybe i can learn to tone down my reaction to that phrase.. What's been most amazing over this topic is the Buckeye's comments i've enjoyed the most is Sam's.. if my world aligns closest with him and I'm confident he may agree, then the world is in weird times

MrNubbz

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Re: 2023 Michigan Season Thread
« Reply #1453 on: November 06, 2023, 04:56:35 PM »
 
« Last Edit: November 06, 2023, 05:04:56 PM by MrNubbz »
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: 2023 Michigan Season Thread
« Reply #1454 on: November 06, 2023, 05:50:33 PM »
We have tended to see things very similar over the years even with controversial topics and i think we see this topic similar outside of a few areas of it...it's just the "cheating" screaming that gets under the skin just a little but maybe i can learn to tone down my reaction to that phrase.. What's been most amazing over this topic is the Buckeye's comments i've enjoyed the most is Sam's.. if my world aligns closest with him and I'm confident he may agree, then the world is in weird times
It's a very loaded word, because "cheating" speaks to intent

There's a famous golf incident with Patrick Reed, who is seen on video dragging sand away behind his ball in a waste area on a practice swing. For non-golfers, this would be an example of "improving his lie", which is verboten. This (along with a few other things) has caused many to call him a cheater. And he's sued them for defamation. However, I argue that the suit is groundless because while the wrongdoing can be proven, the *intent* is what makes it cheating. If it is done accidentally, it could still be a penalty but it's not cheating. It's only cheating if there is intent, and nobody except Patrick Reed can know his intent. So by definition calling him a cheater is a matter of opinion--the facts are undisputed but I'm opining that his intent was nefarious. 

As the Mich fans have pointed out, sign stealing is not actually illegal. So if everyone EXCEPT Connor Stalions thought he had come by his knowledge of opposing team's signals via legitimate means, not a single person except Stalions himself is a cheater. 

So OSU fans are going to ascribe nefarious intent to the actions of the entire program and they're scum. While UM fans are going to say Stalions is a lone wolf and the rest of the program is angelic. Because everyone will believe what they want to believe. 

But I think HB's point is that there is a very simple rule. That Stalions broke the rule does not seem to be in dispute; there's PLENTY of evidence. The debate is about what that means to everyone beyond Stalions, including whether the rulebreaking conferred upon UM enough of an advantage that it calls the on-field results into question and thus deserves that wins be vacated. 

SuperMario

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Re: 2023 Michigan Season Thread
« Reply #1455 on: November 06, 2023, 07:00:13 PM »
It's a very loaded word, because "cheating" speaks to intent.

There's a famous golf incident with Patrick Reed, who is seen on video dragging sand away behind his ball in a waste area on a practice swing. For non-golfers, this would be an example of "improving his lie", which is verboten. This (along with a few other things) has caused many to call him a cheater. And he's sued them for defamation. However, I argue that the suit is groundless because while the wrongdoing can be proven, the *intent* is what makes it cheating. If it is done accidentally, it could still be a penalty but it's not cheating. It's only cheating if there is intent, and nobody except Patrick Reed can know his intent. So by definition calling him a cheater is a matter of opinion--the facts are undisputed but I'm opining that his intent was nefarious.

As the Mich fans have pointed out, sign stealing is not actually illegal. So if everyone EXCEPT Connor Stalions thought he had come by his knowledge of opposing team's signals via legitimate means, not a single person except Stalions himself is a cheater.

So OSU fans are going to ascribe nefarious intent to the actions of the entire program and they're scum. While UM fans are going to say Stalions is a lone wolf and the rest of the program is angelic. Because everyone will believe what they want to believe.

But I think HB's point is that there is a very simple rule. That Stalions broke the rule does not seem to be in dispute; there's PLENTY of evidence. The debate is about what that means to everyone beyond Stalions, including whether the rulebreaking conferred upon UM enough of an advantage that it calls the on-field results into question and thus deserves that wins be vacated.
This is possibly the best post in this 100 pages of posts. 

 

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