2023 Michigan Season Thread

[betarhoalphadelta]

Here's is the exact copy of it from the NCAA hand book. Its actually free to look at.. LINK

I think the angle Michigan is going to take and is the gray area is the language in bylaws 11.6.1.1 and 16.6.1.2, using the language "institutional staff member." Say what you will, but I'm willing to bet that the people that were on-site were NOT institutional staff members and that's the angle Michigan would play if they ever had to. From a legal perspective, show me how they violated that language?

First, "institutional staff member" is only mentioned in the exceptions, not the rule. 

Second, neither of those exceptions would apply. 

Third, the exceptions are there to handle cases like Basketball tournaments where two teams may be playing at the same site so actual institutional members (coaches/etc) are likely to be present, as a kind of catch-all such that the coaches must shut their eyes and cover their ears lest they be accused of "scouting". 

Legal language is careful for a reason. In this case, it is a blanket prohibition of off-campus, in-person, scouting of future opponents. That the exception mentions institutional staff members but 11.6.1 does not is, IMHO, intentional. Specifically to cover things like what Michigan was [allegedly] doing. 

future opponents suggests teams on the schedule....well if you're doing in-person advanced scouting of teams not on your schedule....loophole.

Well, the bylaw does not say future opponents "on the schedule". It says future opponents. I would say that the loophole would be sending someone to scout Tennessee and then them not being an actual opponent. But if you are out there scouting potential future opponents and then they become future opponents, I'd argue that you've violated the rule. 

And in all honesty, this is both the letter of the rule and the spirit of the rule--Michigan had no need to go scout Georgia Tech because in no world would they be a future opponent. They weren't allegedly sending someone to the Tennessee/Vandy game to scout Vandy. They did allegedly scout Tennessee, UGA, etc, who had higher likelihood of being future opponents. 

[Cincydawg]

I didn't know this was a rule, thanks.  It makes sense.  I suspect UM will claim they didn't know.

[SuperMario]

First, "institutional staff member" is only mentioned in the exceptions, not the rule.

Second, neither of those exceptions would apply.

Third, the exceptions are there to handle cases like Basketball tournaments where two teams may be playing at the same site so actual institutional members (coaches/etc) are likely to be present, as a kind of catch-all such that the coaches must shut their eyes and cover their ears lest they be accused of "scouting".

No i completely agree with you. This situation clearly does not meet the exceptions at all and completely agree the exceptions are referencing basketball. I do believe the exceptions were added later down the road and specifically the language of "who" was added because people probably questioned who exactly does it apply to, so the exceptions tried to add clarifying language. I'm simply stating that the rule is vague. The language is not specific. That being said, i understand your statement of spirit of the rule. I get that stance, but i'm not sure that pins Michigan in the corner either. Does that make it right? Not necessarily, but also provides an out. One area we can all agree.. There will be very clear language for this rule in the future.

[medinabuckeye1]

I was actually in the process of typing almost exactly what @betarhoalphadelta typed but he covered it so I scrapped that post.

There is a prohibition on in person scouting period. 

The argument that the rules were not violated because the scUM staff had someone else do it is asinine. 

It is the legal equivalent of providing a gun and paying someone to shoot your wife then claiming innocence based on the fact that you didn't personally pull the trigger.

[847badgerfan]

I was going to respond this morning, but the kiddos had me running circles. MB's posts are exactly what irk the hell out of me. It's juvenile and it's not how this board was for many years. When OSU was constantly in the spotlight, posters here didn't run around and call each other's programs cheaters and scumbags.  Apparently gone are the days that Gator and Badge were the guiding light to just great atmosphere here where disagreements still centered on respect. This board has changed as much as the game of college football. It's sad. We should just close up shop and go to twitter as it's similar interactions.

What i was going to type up this morning was this. I fully believe that Michigan was doing this. How it started I have no idea. Everyone calling Michigan cheaters and saying they're the worst of the worst is where I simply laugh and why i go to hypocrisy statements. If you're saying they're cheaters, you're stating no one else is doing this and they're the only ones outside the lines. Many former players have come out and said sign stealing has been a thing for a long time.

In life, people look for gray areas to find and advantage for great success. Lawyers look for arguments based on interpretation of the law. CPA's do the same. Many many businesses spend a fortune on lawyers to argue their interpretation of the gray area. Does that make the world a bunch of cheaters or people trying to find every angle for an advantage.

That being said. Are there people that blatantly cheat, commit fraud and break the law? Yeah, there is and they deserve the punishment they eventually get, if they ever do. They deserve people calling them out. My point in this entire situation is that we don't know the exact details and interpretation of the rule. Maybe Michigan including Harbaugh looked at the rule and it states they couldn't have staff on site to scout opponents, but it's vague about people not employed by the university doing it. Does that make it right? ehh.. that's where you can have an argument on both sides, but if it's a gray area that doesn't have clarity on the rules, it's not cheating either.

If ultimately that's the stance, that it's blatantly cheating. Then you better go back and acknowledge that Ohio State cheated in the past. Even though it was common for players to be getting paid, to be taking jobs on payroll that weren't real jobs.. it was a competitive advantage getting them ahead and in your eyes, who cares if it's common practice, it's cheating.

Any reasonable person can acknowledge it looks like they had a system in place. They can acknowledge it looks like they problem took advantage of a rule that's old, dated, not relevant and took an angle on that rule that might have crossed the line, but we don't really know yet. Unreasonable people are calling them all cheaters, scum and acting like they know every detail and the only reason their team every lost is because their team was perfectly honest and honorable and that's garbage. Every team is looking for an angle which is why guys like Urban Meyer employ people to study one team and one team only. I'm sure honest Urban's guy never looked at trying to snag signal calling from a year of video studying.. Must be a cheater.

Lastly, i feel bad for the players. Players at that level are looking for guidance on the field an off through coaching staff. Now all these guys are immediately labeled as cheaters as they are giving every effort to be the best at what they do. Imagine being a professional that owns a business, you have attorneys that have a job to guide you in legal decisions. There's a gray area that your attorney tells you is the way to get ahead of your competition because the law is vague and there's an argument to be made to go that route and it's not black in white. You listen and go that route. Your competition calls you out, hangs you out to dry publicly without all the facts and details and every person you care about labels you and your business cheaters and terrible humans.

If after the fact, it's clear they knowingly crossed the line and the NCAA rule is clear as day, then everything slamming them is deserved. We aren't there yet.. but again, some people like to run out the fastest with handcuffs because losing has been too uncomfortable. That's my book on it.. now enjoy piling the twitter posts while I hang out to the memories of what this board once was.

Gator's gone (RIP). We're still trying, even through some of the tougher topics we've been through over the past few years.

[FearlessF]

Lastly, i feel bad for the players. Players at that level are looking for guidance on the field an off through coaching staff. Now all these guys are immediately labeled as cheaters as they are giving every effort to be the best at what they do. Imagine being a professional that owns a business, you have attorneys that have a job to guide you in legal decisions. There's a gray area that your attorney tells you is the way to get ahead of your competition because the law is vague and there's an argument to be made to go that route and it's not black in white. You listen and go that route. Your competition calls you out, hangs you out to dry publicly without all the facts and details and every person you care about labels you and your business cheaters and terrible humans.

I feel bad for the players.
Wins vacated, no bowl game, no chance to play for a national title
they didn't sign up to play for Michigan for this bullshit

[SuperMario]

It is the legal equivalent of providing a gun and paying someone to shoot your wife then claiming innocence based on the fact that you didn't personally pull the trigger.

That's seriously an absurd comparison. Absurd. you're comparing studying an opponent to murder. 

[SuperMario]

Gator's gone (RIP). We're still trying, even through some of the tougher topics we've been through over the past few years.

I know. Oddly, I think about him often and go and look at his picture on the facebook page from time to time.  He was such a good man. Gave me some life shaping advice both personally and professional off the boards. There will never be anything again like his stories and recaps of his college football trips and adventures. So many people didn't cross lines on the board because it would have felt like "letting down" or disappointing your parents.

For many years we tackled some tough topics. Gold boots. Sandusky and Penn State.. There's been a ton. Many of them have been heated.  Sorry, i just can't say it's the same place when people start comparing in person scouts to giving people guns and stealing signs to murder. That's not productive conversation. That's inflammatory conjecture. Life's too short to spend time on unproductive conversation.

[medinabuckeye1]

I was going to respond this morning, but the kiddos had me running circles. MB's posts are exactly what irk the hell out of me. It's juvenile and it's not how this board was for many years. When OSU was constantly in the spotlight, posters here didn't run around and call each other's programs cheaters and scumbags.  Apparently gone are the days that Gator and Badge were the guiding light to just great atmosphere here where disagreements still centered on respect. This board has changed as much as the game of college football. It's sad. We should just close up shop and go to twitter as it's similar interactions.

What i was going to type up this morning was this. I fully believe that Michigan was doing this. How it started I have no idea. Everyone calling Michigan cheaters and saying they're the worst of the worst is where I simply laugh and why i go to hypocrisy statements. If you're saying they're cheaters, you're stating no one else is doing this and they're the only ones outside the lines. Many former players have come out and said sign stealing has been a thing for a long time.

In life, people look for gray areas to find and advantage for great success. Lawyers look for arguments based on interpretation of the law. CPA's do the same. Many many businesses spend a fortune on lawyers to argue their interpretation of the gray area. Does that make the world a bunch of cheaters or people trying to find every angle for an advantage.

That being said. Are there people that blatantly cheat, commit fraud and break the law? Yeah, there is and they deserve the punishment they eventually get, if they ever do. They deserve people calling them out. My point in this entire situation is that we don't know the exact details and interpretation of the rule. Maybe Michigan including Harbaugh looked at the rule and it states they couldn't have staff on site to scout opponents, but it's vague about people not employed by the university doing it. Does that make it right? ehh.. that's where you can have an argument on both sides, but if it's a gray area that doesn't have clarity on the rules, it's not cheating either.

If ultimately that's the stance, that it's blatantly cheating. Then you better go back and acknowledge that Ohio State cheated in the past. Even though it was common for players to be getting paid, to be taking jobs on payroll that weren't real jobs.. it was a competitive advantage getting them ahead and in your eyes, who cares if it's common practice, it's cheating.

Any reasonable person can acknowledge it looks like they had a system in place. They can acknowledge it looks like they problem took advantage of a rule that's old, dated, not relevant and took an angle on that rule that might have crossed the line, but we don't really know yet. Unreasonable people are calling them all cheaters, scum and acting like they know every detail and the only reason their team every lost is because their team was perfectly honest and honorable and that's garbage. Every team is looking for an angle which is why guys like Urban Meyer employ people to study one team and one team only. I'm sure honest Urban's guy never looked at trying to snag signal calling from a year of video studying.. Must be a cheater.

Lastly, i feel bad for the players. Players at that level are looking for guidance on the field an off through coaching staff. Now all these guys are immediately labeled as cheaters as they are giving every effort to be the best at what they do. Imagine being a professional that owns a business, you have attorneys that have a job to guide you in legal decisions. There's a gray area that your attorney tells you is the way to get ahead of your competition because the law is vague and there's an argument to be made to go that route and it's not black in white. You listen and go that route. Your competition calls you out, hangs you out to dry publicly without all the facts and details and every person you care about labels you and your business cheaters and terrible humans.

If after the fact, it's clear they knowingly crossed the line and the NCAA rule is clear as day, then everything slamming them is deserved. We aren't there yet.. but again, some people like to run out the fastest with handcuffs because losing has been too uncomfortable. That's my book on it.. now enjoy piling the twitter posts while I hang out to the memories of what this board once was.

Since you called me out personally, I feel obligated to respond:

Yes, I do think they are cheaters and the worst of the worst.

I've simply never seen anything like this. Most scandals (pre-NIL) involved boosters paying kids and coaches either not knowing, pretending not to know, or intentionally avoiding knowledge.

Tressel's tattoo scandal involved kids selling stuff that they owned. Tressel was rightly fired because he found out and covered it up.

The incredible stupidity in that situation was that the underlying violation wasn't all that big of a deal. Had Tressel reported it the kids would have missed a few games against teams that tOSU's third string could beat. Instead Tressel covered it up and it cost an entire season being vacated and the end of Tressel's coaching career.

One commonality about those is that the underlying violation was committed by a kid and/or a booster.

In this case the underlying violation was orchestrated by the coaching staff. To me, that makes a humongous difference and it is damning.

This isn't about a mistake made by a kid.

This isn't boosters doing things they shouldn't.

Lots of kids at lots of schools have made mistakes. Lots of boosters at lots of schools have done things they shouldn't. This isn't a scandal like that.

This is the Michigan coaching staff conspiring to cheat.

Yes, that makes them cheaters.

In our legal system premeditation is very important. If an Ohio State fan calls Michigan scUM and cheaters in a bar in Ann Arbor, a fight breaks out, and said Ohio State fan is killed in the bar fight the killers are guilty, at most, of murder 2 and probably only manslaughter exactly because they did NOT plan the killing in advance.

This, by definition, was premeditated by the Michigan coaching staff. AFAIK, it is unprecedented.

I simply disagree with your assertion that this is a grey area. See @betarhoalphadelta 's and my comments above.

[medinabuckeye1]

That's seriously an absurd comparison. Absurd. you're comparing studying an opponent to murder.

Did you seriously read it that way?

I'm obviously not comparing what Michigan did to murder. I'm comparing the defense being offered to saying "I'm not guilty because I didn't pull the trigger".

[Honestbuckeye]

https://twitter.com/RealBraxtonM/status/1716899904138936759?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1716899904138936759%7Ctwgr%5E045f16ec9068d8b590fdf6f009f0a70edd4bc751%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2F247sports.com%2Fcollege%2Fohio-state%2Fboard%2F120%2FContents%2Fjames-franklins-takeinteresting-218830299%2F%3Fpage%3D1

[Honestbuckeye]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQm2YXqkmAQ&ab_channel=SECShorts


Fricking hilarious.  

[SuperMario]

Did you seriously read it that way?

I'm obviously not comparing what Michigan did to murder. I'm comparing the defense being offered to saying "I'm not guilty because I didn't pull the trigger".

You let a friend borrower your car. This friend goes to the bar, gets hammered, kills someone on the way home. Your fault? You let him borrower your car. 

Secondly, the Tressel situation you're summing up is only covering what the NCAA could 100% prove and hold them to it. There was far more to the story an what was actually happening. Since we're local to each other, i'll give you the address to the company and one of the donors that was employing OSU players, is well connected to Tressel and you can go digging around to how many OSU players were on their payroll that never worked a day there once you start talking to the other employees there. 

My point is not to deflect. My point is that it has been a dirty game for a while and most of the teams at the top are in the gray area for competitive advantage in so many ways and being a fan of a team at the top and claiming they are holier than thou is shortsighted in my opinion. 

[SuperMario]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQm2YXqkmAQ&ab_channel=SECShorts


Fricking hilarious. 

Ok now that's freaking funny.

The james franklin one... that dude just calls a terrible game and wants to blame others.. Unless he's going to blame OSu for sign stealing for his absolutely terrible play calling this weekend.