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Topic: 2021 Awards Season

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MaximumSam

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #56 on: December 11, 2021, 10:58:45 PM »
Because Stone Cold said so?
Because it's easy to just watch the games. Mainstream defensive stats have always been goofy. It's like pass breakups for defensive backs. Is that supposed to be a good thing?

Mdot21

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #57 on: December 11, 2021, 10:59:25 PM »
2016:  Jabril Peppers is a weird case.  Everyone was enamored with his versatility, but what did he actually DO?  3 sacks.  1 INT.  1 pass deflection.  13 TFL.  3 TDs on offense.  His biggest plus was being a very good punt returner. 
To me, versatility doesn't mean a lot if you can't do many things WELL.  I have no doubt that his versatility helped his team and his willingness to do it was commendable, but does that equate a top-5 Heisman finish?  1 INT?  60 tackles?  Meh.
Peppers definitely didn't belong. The only way he would've belonged imo is if he had gotten more offensive play and scored at least double digit TD's. 10 or more- plus what he did on defense plus what he did as a return man- than he would've belonged. he did not play enough offense to warrant being there- and they had him in the box or blitzing too much too really have any kind of impact in terms of putting up pass defenses/int's. even if he wasn't sacking the qb- he did get quite a bit of pressure when they sent him on blitzes and he was an absolute screen destroyer. screen destroyers are nice guys to have.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #58 on: December 11, 2021, 11:11:16 PM »
Because it's easy to just watch the games. Mainstream defensive stats have always been goofy. It's like pass breakups for defensive backs. Is that supposed to be a good thing?
It's better than allowing a completion, lol.  This reminds me of OSU CB Shawn Springs.  No INTs, but he was an All-American.
This isn't a case of obscure stats being conjured to make Anderson look better than Hutchinson......it's that the same stats that build up Hutchinson build up Anderson MORE.
And this obsession with pressures all of a sudden.....it's a bit much.  It's not 2021, but Anderson led the country in pressures last year.  
.
The case for Hutchinson is the case for Anderson, but weaker.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

bayareabadger

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #59 on: December 11, 2021, 11:16:44 PM »
Some Heisman voting fun facts from previous years:

2018:  QBs Gardner Minshew and McKenzie Milton finished 5th and 6th, respectively...McKenzie has 373 fewer pass attempts.  That's quite a workload disparity, no?

...

2109 Ron Dayne, Wis - out of top 10

.
I know every season is different, but I bet a deeper study would expose the voters as slow and inconsistent.
The Dayne year was interesting. He wasn't the starter early. He caught fire late, but that was for a nice finish to get to 7-5, 3-5 in conference. He also had 1,863 yards heading into the bowl, which is a very good number, but the thought was no freshmen back then, for whatever reason. 

The workload disparity is a bit odd. Minshew was throwing 51 times a game to 31 per game in games where his leg wasn't getting nearly torn off in the first quarter. Minshew total is bloated because of the bowl, so he was actually 49 closer when they voted. Milton lost one game to a hurricane, another to what I guess was injury, plus the aforementioned near leg removal game. 

ELA

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #60 on: December 12, 2021, 12:04:50 AM »
It's all narrative.  The voting contingent is bloated.  It's largely a giant whatever

One of these guys was a Heisman finalist, the other, playing the same position, in the same conference, in one less game, was 2nd team All-Big Ten

78 tackles, 15.5 TFL, 10 sacks, 1 FF, 2 FR, 1 TD
54 tackles, 14.5 TFL, 12 sacks, 2 FF, 1 FR

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #61 on: December 12, 2021, 12:27:12 AM »
That's probably what bothers me.  It's a "whoever the media clings onto" thing.  And in seasons like this one, when they're bitching how "no one seems to want this thing," it's because their lazy asses haven't found an angle on a player who is good, but not any better than 20 other guys.

I'm reminded of Yogi Berra.  His childhood best friend was also a baseball player, but MLB teams drafted Berra way ahead of the friend.  Both of them 'knew' the friend was better, but the experts disagreed.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

ELA

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #62 on: December 12, 2021, 01:06:12 AM »
The voting base for both the Walter camp and Maxwell awards are far more qualified than the Heisman voting. I truly would be interested to know why the Heisman became the premier award over those two

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #63 on: December 12, 2021, 01:22:47 AM »
I'm afraid it might be the actual trophy itself.  The Maxwell looks like 3 people dancing and the Camp is just a guy standing there.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

MaximumSam

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #64 on: December 12, 2021, 08:03:35 AM »
It's better than allowing a completion, lol.  This reminds me of OSU CB Shawn Springs.  No INTs, but he was an All-American.
This isn't a case of obscure stats being conjured to make Anderson look better than Hutchinson......it's that the same stats that build up Hutchinson build up Anderson MORE.
And this obsession with pressures all of a sudden.....it's a bit much.  It's not 2021, but Anderson led the country in pressures last year. 
.
The case for Hutchinson is the case for Anderson, but weaker.
Shawn Springs was a great player. Which brings up the biggest problem with defensive stats - quarterbacks being afraid to throw anywhere near Springs is...a bad thing, because he can't then record the right defensive statistics? It's nonsense. People talk about pressures more because defensive coaches want to pressure the quarterback. It's the whole deal. That defensive stats haven't really followed along with what is important in football is not the fault of any player. 

bayareabadger

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #65 on: December 12, 2021, 08:54:06 AM »
That's probably what bothers me.  It's a "whoever the media clings onto" thing.  And in seasons like this one, when they're bitching how "no one seems to want this thing," it's because their lazy asses haven't found an angle on a player who is good, but not any better than 20 other guys.

I'm reminded of Yogi Berra.  His childhood best friend was also a baseball player, but MLB teams drafted Berra way ahead of the friend.  Both of them 'knew' the friend was better, but the experts disagreed.
If subjective things that don't align exactly with your world view bother you, I think you might just not like awards. 

In the end, the award can only go to one person. And knowing you as I do, I'm going to guess that there's almost nobody, if not nobody, who is gonna fully satisfy you on this front. That's the nature of picking anything. No matter who you pick, there will be some reason to detract. And you will always be able to make the detractions the thing, if you want to. 

(Had I a vote, I woulda given it to Anderson. I might not have put a QB at all on my ballot, though Young's late surge and Davis' late play might have gotten Young third)

bayareabadger

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #66 on: December 12, 2021, 09:04:32 AM »
It's all narrative.  The voting contingent is bloated.  It's largely a giant whatever

One of these guys was a Heisman finalist, the other, playing the same position, in the same conference, in one less game, was 2nd team All-Big Ten

78 tackles, 15.5 TFL, 10 sacks, 1 FF, 2 FR, 1 TD
54 tackles, 14.5 TFL, 12 sacks, 2 FF, 1 FR
It took me a second to check who what was. The construction of that, with the omitted context is kind of a good reminder why this conversation is always going to end in this spot.

The post only has one direct factual error (which actually creates another set of factual errors), but it strips away enough context to obscure enough truth to make it seem logically sound. And we stick with it because we want to believe we should be aggrieved and that the experts are fools.

I often think they're not super at picking these things (there's an OL vote, for goodness sake), but creating notably misleading narratives about these things just shows the criticism is far from sticking to the straight and narrow.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2021, 09:27:18 AM by bayareabadger »

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #67 on: December 12, 2021, 09:55:34 AM »
Shawn Springs was a great player. Which brings up the biggest problem with defensive stats - quarterbacks being afraid to throw anywhere near Springs is...a bad thing, because he can't then record the right defensive statistics? It's nonsense. People talk about pressures more because defensive coaches want to pressure the quarterback. It's the whole deal. That defensive stats haven't really followed along with what is important in football is not the fault of any player.
Exactly. Defensive stats and how a defensive player actually effects a game are two completely different things. And what a defensive player is able to do depends highly on who else is on that unit. 

George Karlaftis didn't have a Heisman-worth statistical season by far... Because teams were double- and triple-teaming him on passing downs and were so terrified of him that they did everything they could to scheme and block him out of the game. They were able to do this because Purdue didn't have anyone else on that defense that was so disruptive.

Go back a few years and I think it was the tandem of Ryan Kerrigan who had a great junior season, but his senior season when Kawaan Short really became a dominant force at DT that it opened Kerrigan up and he started recording eye-popping defensive stats because the defense couldn't focus on him as the sole threat. 

Michigan was an embarrassment of riches on the DL this year, so teams couldn't just scheme or double+ Hutchison out of the game. Alabama is an embarrassment of riches at every position every year, so they get the same thing. No way you can design your offense around avoiding Anderson because if he's the guy who EA Sports rates a 99, everyone else on that defense is 94-97 so it's not like you can pick that poison. 

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #68 on: December 12, 2021, 10:29:46 AM »
If subjective things that don't align exactly with your world view bother you, I think you might just not like awards.

In the end, the award can only go to one person. And knowing you as I do, I'm going to guess that there's almost nobody, if not nobody, who is gonna fully satisfy you on this front. That's the nature of picking anything. No matter who you pick, there will be some reason to detract. And you will always be able to make the detractions the thing, if you want to.

(Had I a vote, I woulda given it to Anderson. I might not have put a QB at all on my ballot, though Young's late surge and Davis' late play might have gotten Young third)
I don't recall criticizing the guy who won the award this year.
But I guess you know me really well.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2021 Awards Season
« Reply #69 on: December 12, 2021, 10:31:16 AM »
Shawn Springs was a great player. Which brings up the biggest problem with defensive stats - quarterbacks being afraid to throw anywhere near Springs is...a bad thing, because he can't then record the right defensive statistics? It's nonsense. People talk about pressures more because defensive coaches want to pressure the quarterback. It's the whole deal. That defensive stats haven't really followed along with what is important in football is not the fault of any player.
I agree, Shawn Springs was a great player.  Where did I say otherwise?

So people talk about pressures more because defensive coaches want to pressure the QB?  Okay.  Do me a favor - poll the top 100 DCs in the game and ask them if they'd rather have a pressure or a sack.

I'll hang up and listen.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

 

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