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Topic: Misfits Thread

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CWSooner

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #1708 on: April 26, 2020, 12:12:08 PM »
I have to read that only have read/watched snippets of this battle.I do remember reading US Naval forces didn't have an over all Admiral at this battle and evidently neither did the IJN.So the order of battle was really uncoordinated.Some of the forces were under Nimitz/Halsey and others still under MacArthur(mistake IMO) and efforts disjointed.Should have left Nimitz orchestrate as he got them that far.However Halsey did get suckered into some well planned ruse and the 7th fleet was having their own problems also.But then things weren't going so well either for the IJN.Big messy boat brawl really
The fundamental problem was that the Philippines was at the convergence of MacArthur's South-West Pacific Area command and Nimitz' Central Pacific Area command.  Neither of them was put in overall command, so we did not have unity of command at the level where operations turns into strategy.  Halsey's 3rd Fleet was under Nimitz' command, while Kinkaid's 7th Fleet was under MacArthur's command.  This sounds funny, but it wasn't.  MacArthur had been fighting in New Guinea and the Solomons, and 7th Fleet was the "navy" assigned to him.  In the same way, while Nimitz' ground striking power was mostly Marines, there were also Army combat units assigned to his command, increasingly so as the war went on.
The problem at Leyte Gulf was that the two theater commands were just cooperating rather than working under the same commander.
So the "Taffy 3" fight off Samar was fought by elements of Kinkaid's (MacArthur's) 7th Fleet, as was the battleship fight at Surigao Straight, while the carrier battles (sub-battles of the overall battle) were under Halsey, who worked for Nimitz.  And Halsey got a little froggy at the chance to destroy the Japanese' last carrier fleet and was decayed away from Leyte Gulf chasing empty carriers.
Back when the Army still emphasized "principles of war," one of the most important was Unity of Command.  When you don't have it, there is a greater chance for things to go wrong once the enemy starts doing things not anticipated in the plan.  One of the most glaring flaws exposed in the April 1980 "Desert One" attempt to rescue our hostage in Iran.  There were USAF special ops C-130s, Army Delta Force and Rangers, Marines launching from Navy ships flying Navy helicopters, and nobody in overall charge who could talk to everybody else.
Same problems were exposed in the Grenada invasion, and we ended up having some of our troops in the 82nd Airborne Division killed by USAF A-7s strafing a brigade tactical operations center (TOC).  They were using different maps with different sets of coordinates and were not talking to each other by radio.
Anyway, back to Leyte, that was the problem off Samar.  The fleet carriers with the airpower to do something against Kurita's battleships were not talking to "Taffy 3" because their chains of command went back to Pearl Harbor and Australia, respectively.

Strategically, we could have bypassed the Philippines, but MacArthur had promised that he would return, and the Philippines were an American commonwealth, so national honor and good faith were involved.
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CWSooner

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #1709 on: April 26, 2020, 12:14:20 PM »
Before Pearl Harbor, many Americans viewed Japanese (to the extent they noticed at all) as buck toothed incompetent Asians racially inferior.  After PH, they suddenly were violent supermen with incredible martial powers.

Folks had a hard time grasping the logistical challenges in sending a fleet across the Pacific Ocean.

The IJN fleet after PH spent a good bit of effort attacking the British in India and Ceylon, an area of operations of somewhat limited strategic importance for them at the time.

And after the Doolittle attack, the Japanese then over reacted in turn.
And a good thing it was that they did.
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MrNubbz

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #1710 on: April 26, 2020, 12:30:00 PM »
Jake and Ellwood after the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor ...
Remember the flick 1941 (flop)with Belushi.Japanes sailor sees that chicks backside and says ohhh Horrywood - probably the high light of the movie
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MrNubbz

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #1711 on: April 26, 2020, 12:35:08 PM »
Heh!  If it's not in a movie starring the latest Hollywood skanks and doofuses, it didn't happen!
The movie Pearl Harbor with Affleck and Beckinsale might as well been "Star Wars Return of  the Skanks and Doofuses" for it's historical accuracy.Right up there with U-571
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Cincydawg

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #1712 on: April 26, 2020, 12:36:18 PM »
And a good thing it was that they did.
Countries at war tend to over react.  I could say France under reacted in May, 1940.  It's fascinating to read how entrenched they were in their thinking  (ha).  They'd fight this war in Belgium instead of northern France and let the Germans run up huge casualties as they dug in on defense.

I have an old US newspaper article from that time noting reports of German motorcycle units breaking through at Sedan.  I guess that was what the French HC thought at the time, just some annoying bees.  Hitler was very lucky in one sense, and unlucky that it confirmed for him the idea that his concepts were all wonderful.


Cincydawg

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #1713 on: April 26, 2020, 12:37:10 PM »
The movie Pearl Harbor with Affleck and Beckinsale might as well been "Star Wars Return of  the Skanks and Doofuses" for it's historical accuracy.Right up there with U-571
The worst I ever saw I think was "Battle of the Bulge" with Fonda.  It took what really was a fascinating story and turned it into a mess.

longhorn320

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #1714 on: April 26, 2020, 12:41:30 PM »
Remember the flick 1941 (flop)with Belushi.Japanes sailor sees that chicks backside and says ohhh Horrywood - probably the high light of the movie
There were a lot of great scenes in that movie

one of my favorite ones was the scene where Dan Aykroyd was telling Ned Beatty what he should never do to fire the artillery gun with detailed instructions
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longhorn320

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #1715 on: April 26, 2020, 12:42:24 PM »
The worst I ever saw I think was "Battle of the Bulge" with Fonda.  It took what really was a fascinating story and turned it into a mess.
Band of Brothers was much better
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MrNubbz

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #1716 on: April 26, 2020, 12:46:34 PM »
The worst I ever saw I think was "Battle of the Bulge" with Fonda.  It took what really was a fascinating story and turned it into a mess.
Ya well they fimed it in Spain with no snow or tree lined hills
« Last Edit: April 27, 2020, 08:17:18 AM by MrNubbz »
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Cincydawg

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #1717 on: April 26, 2020, 12:53:55 PM »
I recall one scene where "German tanks" (I think they were M-48s) lined up on a hill and started shelling a town.

FearlessF

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #1718 on: April 26, 2020, 12:57:20 PM »
There were a lot of great scenes in that movie

one of my favorite ones was the scene where Dan Aykroyd was telling Ned Beatty what he should never do to fire the artillery gun with detailed instructions
the baby wolf reference

I enjoyed the trainer plane scene with a bra for auto pilot
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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #1719 on: April 26, 2020, 01:08:15 PM »
At its peak the U.S. Navy was operating 6,768 ships around VJ Day at the end of August, 1945. The number includes 28 aircraft carriers, 23 battleships, 71 escort carriers, 72 cruisers, 232 submarines and 377 destroyers along with thousands of other ships like destroyer escorts, minesweepers, amphibious landing ships, command ships, supply ships, repair and auxiliary ships of all kinds.



The photo shows the USN 3rd Fleet anchorage at Ulithi Atoll, 8 Dec. 1944 -- just 3 years after Pearl Harbor. The carriers are (from front to back): USS Wasp (CV-18), USS Yorktown (CV-10), USS Hornet (CV-12), USS Hancock (CV-19) and USS Ticonderoga (CV-14). Wasp, Yorktown and Ticonderoga are painted in camouflage Measure 33, Design 10a. The Fletcher class destroyer behind them is probably USS Healy (DD-672), painted in Measure S31/21D.

Behind the main row
: USS Langley (CVL-27) USS Lexington (CV-16) and USS San Jacinto (CVL-30)

Across the back are the Battleships:

USS Washington (BB-56)

USS Iowa (BB-61)

USS South Dakota (BB-57)

USS New Jersey (BB-62)

Beyond the main row of carriers and to the right are the cruisers:

USS Santa Fe (CL-60) USS Mobile (CL-63) USS Biloxi (CL-80) and USS New Orleans (CA-32).

Photographed by an aircraft from CV-14.[/font][/size][/color][/font][/size][/color]

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #1720 on: April 26, 2020, 08:05:48 PM »
The movie Pearl Harbor with Affleck and Beckinsale might as well been "Star Wars Return of  the Skanks and Doofuses" for it's historical accuracy.Right up there with U-571
Beckinsale is a verrrrry "talented" actress.  Like fully.
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CWSooner

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #1721 on: April 26, 2020, 10:45:41 PM »
The movie Pearl Harbor with Affleck and Beckinsale might as well been "Star Wars Return of  the Skanks and Doofuses" for it's historical accuracy.Right up there with U-571
Yep.  I wasted my money on both of those pieces of crap.  U-571 was just a throwaway piece of crap.  Pearl Harbor was a multi-bazillion-dollar mega-blockbuster piece of crap.
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