2020-2021 B1G Basketball Thread

[FearlessF]

that's for sure

now if we could just get Saban to retire

[OrangeAfroMan]

and yes they favor helmets.  in 2008 when Dabo arrived at Clemson, the Tigers were not cornsidered a helmet.  They are today, so there is also a path to obtain helmet status.

It's earned on the field of play.

  Blasphemahhhhh!!!!!    

I'm glad you agree with me.

[utee94]

No guarantee Clemson remains what it is now when Dabo leaves. They are just the latest shiny new toy.

I think Clemson will continue to get BOTD unless/until they poop the bed badly a couple times.  They already have the easiest path to the playoffs every year, playing through by far the weakest conference.  

That doesn't mean they're not a very good team, they've beaten Alabama and other really good teams in the playoff plenty enough.

But they also have the greatest margin for error in the regular season due to the conference they play in.

[medinabuckeye1]

Well, that's not ALL that happens in basketball. Half the field is auto-bids, mostly teams that have absolutely zero shot to win it, but the other half of the field is at-large selections. IIRC there are around 33 conferences, which would mean that 35 teams are at-large selections. That's a much bigger number than in football, even proportionately to the size of the sport.

The difference is that teams have an objective path to getting into the tournament in basketball, whereas in football teams have to both perform on the field and hope that performance is enough to win a beauty pageant that nobody has explained the clear rules to, but always seem to favor the helmets.

FWIW, there were 31 leagues in 2020/2021. That is one less than usual because the Ivy League sat the year out due to COVID-19.

Of the 31 leagues:

• Five had at least 1/2 of their teams in the top 68 of the final NET Rankings (B1G, B12, SEC, ACC, Beast)
• Another five had less than 1/2 but at least 1/4 of their teams in the top 68 of the final NET Rankings (P12, MWC, A10, WCC, AAC).
• The MVC had two of their 10 teams in the top 68 of the final NET Rankings.
• Another five had exactly one of their 10-14 teams in the top 68 of the final NET Rankings (Patriot, B-West, B-South, MAC, C-USA).
• The other 15 leagues had no teams ranked in the top 68 of the final NET Rankings. This is a range from three conferences whose best team was ranked in the 70's down to the SWAC whose best team was #201.

Those figures are fairly similar to the previous tournament (2019) when:

• Five leagues had at least 1/2 of their teams in top 68 of the final NET Rankings (B12, B1G, SEC, ACC, B-East).
• Another three had less than half but more than a quarter of their teams in the top 68 of the final NET Rankings (AAC, P12, SoCon).
• Another five had exactly two of their 9-12 teams in the top 68 of the final NET Rankings (ASUN, WCC, MWC, MAC, OVC).
• Another three had exactly one of their 9-14 teams ranked in the top 68 of the final NET Rankings (WAC, B-West, A10).
• The other 16 leagues had no teams ranked in the top 68 of the final NET Rankings. This ranged from two leagues with a team ranked in the 70's to four leagues without a team ranked in the top 200.

[FearlessF]

I think Clemson will continue to get BOTD unless/until they poop the bed badly a couple times.  They already have the easiest path to the playoffs every year, playing through by far the weakest conference. 

That doesn't mean they're not a very good team, they've beaten Alabama and other really good teams in the playoff plenty enough.

But they also have the greatest margin for error in the regular season due to the conference they play in.

this implies it's not about what conference or 50+ seasons of performance

if BYU or Boise St. go undefeated in conference a few times, earn their place in the 4-team playoff, and THEN take down Bama, or Clemson, or Ohio St, or a top 4 Sooner team, they will earn helmet status just as easily as Clemson.

same goes for any team in the SEC or Big Ten, such as Purdue or Indiana.  Win the Big 12 or SEC, get to the playoff, and THEN beat some top 4 teams a few seasons.  It's there for them.

it's not easy, but it's not easy for Ohio St. or Clemson, or Bama

[medinabuckeye1]

I'm surprised at how so few (if anybody) are advocating for an expanded 8-team CFP which includes GULP the top 8 teams.  Even that would be far superior to basektball's system, in terms of competition.

Just to clarify where I am coming from:

My inclusion of the "tallest midget" (highest ranked non-P5 Champion) is NOT because I think they deserve the spot or because I think they'd have any chance of winning. I include them in my proposal for three reasons:

• The P5/BCS was threatened with litigation and/or Congressional anti-trust investigation for excluding the non-P5 leagues.  The same thing would happen if we expanded to an eight team playoff without including a path for the non-P5. Ie, it is a pragmatic consideration, we have to include them whether or not you or I or the P5 commissioners want to.
• Placing them in against one of the country's best teams is going to illustrate the gap between the top of the G5 and the top of the P5. I believe that gap is humongous. For example, in 2019 Ohio State was one of the best P5 teams. Coincidentally, Cincinnati was one of the best non-P5 teams. When they played that year the Buckeyes won 42-0. A string of blowout wins by high seeded P5 Champions over the best G5 team will quiet down the ridiculous G5 complaints. Instead of UCF winning an exhibition bowl and declaring themselves National Champions, they'll get smoked by BAMA/Clemson/tOSU and the gap will be visible to all.
• Since I would seed the playoff and have the top four league Champions host the first round, including the top G5 Champion would be a reward for the #1 league Champion.

[FearlessF]

sure, the #1 overall seed almost gets a bye, without getting a bye

[medinabuckeye1]

One fact that gets VERY little attention is that expanding the playoff actually makes it LESS likely that a non Helmet (or at least near-helmet) team will win the NC.

Look at the BYU example. We all know that their NC was a ridiculous joke, but they have that trophy in their case. It took a lot of luck and a bunch of clueless poll voters, but it happened. 

Consider a team like Purdue:

Pre-BCS:
To win an NC the Boilermakers would have needed an undefeated season including a Rose Bowl win. That is difficult, but not impossible even for a team that isn't actually THAT good. Maybe they hit a year where they upset one of tOSU or Michigan. Maybe they don't play the other. Maybe the best team in the Pac is suspended from postseason games so they get a weaker RB opponent. 

BCS era:
To win an NC the Boilermakers needed an undefeated season and one postseason upset. Again, not easy but stranger things have happened. 

CFP era:
Now they MIGHT be able to get in with a loss, but they would have to be B1G Champions so they'd need AT LEAST an 11-1 regular season then three straight wins over increasingly good teams. They have no chance without actually building up their program to a level they probably could never achieve. 

[medinabuckeye1]

My argument isn't really about seeding at all--it's about equity. I don't think the CFP is a good process for selecting the field, nor do I think it does anything more than the polls or BCS to create a "real" champion. It's just a larger beauty pageant than what came before it.

I think there is a middle ground between @OrangeAfroMan and others insisting that we include only the "best" teams and @betarhoalphadelta and others insisting that we provide a clear path and thus give every team a chance. 

On a theoretical level, I agree with OAM. In theory, I think that the playoff should consist only of the best "x" teams where "x" is the number of teams included. 

That said, the problem is that interleague play is so limited that we really have only a limited idea as to the relative strength of the SEC and B1G in a given season. 

We saw this happen this year in CBB. Pre-tournament the ratings all said that the B1G was far-and-away the best league and that the Pac wasn't very good. The tournament showed us that the B1G and ACC were overrated while the Pac was underrated. 

The same thing can and does happen in football. 

In BB we handle this by going to the extreme of reserving a spot for every league champion no matter how ridiculous their inclusion is. 36 tournaments have amply demonstrated that those bottom 10+ league champions don't actually contribute anything to the NC race. 

In football we go to the opposite extreme and don't technically reserve spots for any league Champions. 

I think that both sports would be better served by reserving spots for league champions but making that conditional on the strength of the league in question. In BB I'd like to see the auto bids limited to something like:

• The top-20 highest ranked league Champions, or
• The champions of each league that has at least one team in the top-100 or 128 of the final rankings.

That way there would be auto bids for all decent league champions but we wouldn't need to include champions from the worst leagues.

In football I think that the 5+1+2 proposal handles it. Entry would be within each program's (if not each team's) control. If you are a G5 that doesn't make it because another G5 Champ is ranked higher, schedule some decent OOC games! If the P12 is underrated their Champions will have an opportunity to prove that because they'll still get a bid, etc.

[utee94]

this implies it's not about what conference or 50+ seasons of performance

if BYU or Boise St. go undefeated in conference a few times, earn their place in the 4-team playoff, and THEN take down Bama, or Clemson, or Ohio St, or a top 4 Sooner team, they will earn helmet status just as easily as Clemson.

same goes for any team in the SEC or Big Ten, such as Purdue or Indiana.  Win the Big 12 or SEC, get to the playoff, and THEN beat some top 4 teams a few seasons.  It's there for them.

it's not easy, but it's not easy for Ohio St. or Clemson, or Bama

Clemson definitely has some helmet status, they've earned it.  I think we've all acknowledged over the years that there are degrees of helmetosity and it can wax and wane over time.

All helmet status really gets you, with respect to the playoffs, is the BOTD from the committee.  In days past, it gave you BOTD with the poll voters.  BOTD gives you the nod over someone else, with everything else being generally equal.

It'd be interesting to me, though, to see what happens if say, Clemson loses one game in the ACC, and Ohio State loses one game in the B1G, but they each win their CCGs, and the other three major conferences all produce an undefeated conference champ.  Is Clemson's new helmet shinier than Ohio State's long-standing one?

[medinabuckeye1]

Clemson definitely has some helmet status, they've earned it.  I think we've all acknowledged over the years that there are degrees of helmetosity and it can wax and wane over time.

All helmet status really gets you, with respect to the playoffs, is the BOTD from the committee.  In days past, it gave you BOTD with the poll voters.  BOTD gives you the nod over someone else, with everything else being generally equal.

It'd be interesting to me, though, to see what happens if say, Clemson loses one game in the ACC, and Ohio State loses one game in the B1G, but they each win their CCGs, and the other three major conferences all produce an undefeated conference champ.  Is Clemson's new helmet shinier than Ohio State's long-standing one?

Right now, I think tOSU would get that nod, but it isn't because tOSU has a longer standing as a helmet, it is because tOSU beat Clemson last time they played. If you had asked thus question prior to the 2020 tOSU/Clemson game I'd have said that Clemson would get the nod.

[medinabuckeye1]

Back to BB, who is everyone rooting for tonight and why?

I'm rooting for Baylor because I am unapologetically a major conference elitist. 

[MaximumSam]

I picked the Zags in my bracket so I'm going with them, even though I'm hopelessly out of the money

[betarhoalphadelta]

Back to BB, who is everyone rooting for tonight and why?

I'm rooting for Baylor because I am unapologetically a major conference elitist.

Baylor. Wife's bracket will finish 7th in our bracket challenge with a Baylor win, and top 10 is in the money. 

First time she's ever done a bracket, and she's certainly tickled that she did way better than me lol...