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Topic: 2019 B1G-W Race

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Benthere2

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Re: 2019 B1G-W Race
« Reply #42 on: May 29, 2019, 03:39:31 PM »
I admit that Wisconsin has had a great run for a long time.  But in reality, Just look to last couple years and see what is coming back.  

Nebraska is getting a lot of love for finishing the year strong and return a good caliber QB, Iowa's coaching staffs been together forever, wisconsin has history, Northwestern is the defending champ

To be honest I dont look up every team and see what they lost and have coming back but the question should be 

can Wisconsin bounce back from a disappointing year. Can Nebraska keep improving and not have a 2nd year dip, Can Iowa continue to pound the ground, Can Pat in Northwestern start the year like he seems to finish?  Is Fleck for real and continue his roll.  Will Purdue stop killing themselves with undisciplined play?

 

SFBadger96

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Re: 2019 B1G-W Race
« Reply #43 on: May 29, 2019, 05:02:27 PM »
^^^ We have a winner. Lock the thread.
Probably right.
And yeah, my memory isn't great about who was misplaced...

FearlessF

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Re: 2019 B1G-W Race
« Reply #44 on: May 29, 2019, 05:21:54 PM »
My opinion is that balance of power between conference divisions is over rated and not important

what's the worst that happens if Ohio State, Michigan, Michigan St, and Penn St. are all VERY good, the West is very weak with the Badgers being the best of the bunch and go 5-4 in conference and win the division?

Are we concerned that a huge upset could happen in the CCG?  So what?

Is it that we don't want all the top teams in one division because they beat themselves up and all end with 2 losses and potentially miss the 4-team playoff?
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

medinabuckeye1

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Re: 2019 B1G-W Race
« Reply #45 on: May 30, 2019, 10:12:53 AM »
My opinion is that balance of power between conference divisions is over rated and not important

what's the worst that happens if Ohio State, Michigan, Michigan St, and Penn St. are all VERY good, the West is very weak with the Badgers being the best of the bunch and go 5-4 in conference and win the division?

Are we concerned that a huge upset could happen in the CCG?  So what?

Is it that we don't want all the top teams in one division because they beat themselves up and all end with 2 losses and potentially miss the 4-team playoff?

IMHO, competitive balance is preferred but not necessarily the end-all-be-all.  There are a few problems with unbalanced divisions:

First, in the scenario you laid out where a mediocre Wisconsin wins the West at 5-4 while two out of three or three out of four elite teams from the East miss the CG the potential problem is that a CG upset likely results in no CFP representation.  If we instead had two elite teams in the CG then we would be almost guaranteed to get one of them into the CFP. 

Second, with the current setup the B1G-E teams that aren't as good have almost zero chance of ever winning the division.  The Buckeyes, Wolverines, Nittany Lions, and Spartans each will have their off years but the chances of all of them having an off year in the same year are near zero which leaves Indiana, Maryland, and Rutgers in a tough spot. 

One problem, of course, is that things change.  Most of us can remember when the B12-N was dominating the B12 with high-end Nebraska and KSU teams while OU and UT were down.  We can also remember when the SEC-E was dominating the SEC with high-end UF and UT teams while Bama and LSU were down. 

I actually am intrigued by the B12's idea of eliminating divisions and just having the top two teams play.  I think that is probably the best way to improve a league's chances of putting a team in the CFP because it guarantees that one of the top teams in the league will get a quality win on the last day. 

One interesting thing is that there haven't really been any major CG upsets in the CFP era:
2018:
 - #11 UW over #17 Utah
 - #1 Bama over #4 UGA
 - #2 Clemson over nr Pitt
 - #5 OU over #14 UT
 - #6 tOSU over #21 NU

2017:
 - #10 USC over #12 Stanford
 - #1 Clemson over #7 Miami
 - #6 UGA over #2 Auburn (a sort-of upset but not a big one)
 - #3 OU over #11 TCU
 - #8 tOSU over #4 UW (another sort-of upset but again not a big one and I'm pretty sure tOSU was technically favored)

2016:
 - #4 UW over #8 Colorado
 - #1 Bama over #15 UF
 - #3 Clemson over #23 VaTech
 - #7 PSU over #6 UW (another sort-of upset)

2015:
 - #1 Clemson over #10 UNC
 - #2 Bama over #18 UF
 - #5 MSU over #4 Iowa (another sort-of upset)
 - #7 Stanford over #20 USC

2014:
 - #2 Oregon over #7 Arizona
 - #1 Bama over #16 Mizzou
 - #4 FSU over #11 GaTech
 - #5 tOSU over #13 UW (technically this was an upset)

Cincydawg

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Re: 2019 B1G-W Race
« Reply #46 on: May 30, 2019, 10:34:27 AM »
There is somewhere around a 1 chance in 5 that a somewhat decent team upsets a very good team, in the CG or otherwise, though your data suggests in a CG the odds are not that high (perhaps both teams are clearly motivated).  It can happen that a #2 team gets knocked out by a #15 team of course, it's a risk to some degree.

I like the divisions personally, but I prefer 12 team conferences.  Winning your division is a something anyway, even if that's all you do, especially for a program not normally competitive at that level.  It's not much for an Ohio State to win the division and then lose the CG, but it would be for NW.

I like that almost half the teams win their final game if they make a bowl.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: 2019 B1G-W Race
« Reply #47 on: May 30, 2019, 10:55:27 AM »
There is somewhere around a 1 chance in 5 that a somewhat decent team upsets a very good team, in the CG or otherwise, though your data suggests in a CG the odds are not that high (perhaps both teams are clearly motivated).  It can happen that a #2 team gets knocked out by a #15 team of course, it's a risk to some degree.

I like the divisions personally, but I prefer 12 team conferences.  Winning your division is a something anyway, even if that's all you do, especially for a program not normally competitive at that level.  It's not much for an Ohio State to win the division and then lose the CG, but it would be for NW.

I like that almost half the teams win their final game if they make a bowl. 

Defining "upset" as a win by a lower ranked team, there have been four upsets in 22* P5 CG's since the CFP was implemented:
 - #6 UGA over #2 Auburn in the 2017 SECCG
 - #8 tOSU over #4 UW in the 2017 B1GCG
 - #7 PSU over #6 UW in the 2016 B1GCG
 - #5 MSU over #4 Iowa in the 2015 B1GCG

That roughly equals the 1-in-5 that you suggested above but I think you were talking about a "major" upset and none of these were.  Two involved a team beating the team immediately ahead of them in the rankings and the other two were only four spot gaps. 

Furthermore, the only one of these that had an impact beyond the conference in which it occurred was Ohio State's "upset" of Wisconsin in the 2017 B1GCG.  Wisconsin's loss knocked them out of the top-4 but Ohio State's win didn't get them into the top-4 so that effectively made room for Bama to make the playoff. 

Impact of the other three upsets:
 - In 2017 #6 UGA knocked off #2 Auburn in the SECCG and effectively "stole" Auburn's CFP spot. 
 - In 2015 #5 MSU knocked off #4 Iowa in the B1GCG and effectively "stole" Iowa's CFP spot. 
 - In 2016 #7 PSU knocked off #6 UW in the B1GCG and neither team made the CFP.  Neither team would have made the CFP regardless of the CG outcome. 

*There have been 22 rather than 25 P5 CG's in the past five years because the B12 didn't have one for the first three years (2014-2016). 

FearlessF

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Re: 2019 B1G-W Race
« Reply #48 on: May 30, 2019, 11:52:55 AM »
IMHO, competitive balance is preferred but not necessarily the end-all-be-all.  There are a few problems with unbalanced divisions:


Second, with the current setup the B1G-E teams that aren't as good have almost zero chance of ever winning the division.  The Buckeyes, Wolverines, Nittany Lions, and Spartans each will have their off years but the chances of all of them having an off year in the same year are near zero which leaves Indiana, Maryland, and Rutgers in a tough spot. 
Indiana, Maryland, and Rutgers have been in a tough spot for decades and it didn't come from being in a stronger division
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Cincydawg

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Re: 2019 B1G-W Race
« Reply #49 on: May 30, 2019, 12:06:17 PM »
Yeah, my "1 in 5" relates to a spread of about 10 points or so, meaning a #15 team upsetting a #3 team, for example.

Most think some upsets happen because the favored team is somewhat unmotivated that day, going through motions, but in a CG that seems as if it would be a diminished factor, versus say Bama on a roll 10-0 going into Starkville to play a 7-3 team.

So, my 1 in 5 might be more like 1 in 8, or more, hard to say.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: 2019 B1G-W Race
« Reply #50 on: May 30, 2019, 03:14:24 PM »
Yeah, my "1 in 5" relates to a spread of about 10 points or so, meaning a #15 team upsetting a #3 team, for example.

Most think some upsets happen because the favored team is somewhat unmotivated that day, going through motions, but in a CG that seems as if it would be a diminished factor, versus say Bama on a roll 10-0 going into Starkville to play a 7-3 team.

So, my 1 in 5 might be more like 1 in 8, or more, hard to say.

My point in this discussion is that we have had an unusual lack of major and impactful CG upsets in the CFP era and I believe that will not continue indefinitely.  I would break the 22 CG's in the CFP era into three blocks as follows:

Group #1, games in which the two teams were ranked close enough together such that the lower ranked team winning is hardly an upset at all:
YearConferenceWinner rankLoser RankRank GapWinnerLoser
2017SEC62-4GeorgiaAuburn
2017B1G84-4Ohio StateWisconsin
2016B1G76-1Penn StateWisconsin
2015B1G54-1Michigan StateIowa
2017PAC10122USCStanford
2018SEC143BamaGeorgia
2016PAC484WashingtonColorado
These are games in which the participants were ranked within four spots of each other.  As you can see, the higher ranked teams are 3-4 in these seven games but the "upsets" really weren't surprising as the games were basically among equals. 

The next group are games in which an upset would be mildly surprising:
YearConferenceWinner rankLoser RankRank GapWinnerLoser
2014PAC275OregonArizona
2018PAC11176WashingtonUtah
2017ACC176ClemsonMiami
2014ACC4117Florida StateGaTech
2017B123118OklahomaTCU
2014B1G5138Ohio StateWisconsin
2018B125149OklahomaTexas
2015ACC1109ClemsonNorth Carolina
These are games in which the participants were ranked 5-9 spots apart.  As you can see, the higher ranked teams are 8-0 in these games.  I think that is amazing.  The lower ranked teams in these games are very good and aught to be pulling off the upset I would imagine at least once every four or five attempts. 

Finally we have the games in which an upset would be shocking:
YearConferenceWinner rankLoser RankRank GapWinnerLoser
2015PAC72013StanfordUSC
2016SEC11514BamaFlorida
2018B1G62115Ohio StateNorthwestern
2014SEC11615BamaMizzou
2015SEC21816BamaFlorida
2016ACC32320ClemsonVaTech
2018ACC2nr#VALUE!ClemsonPittsburgh
These are games in which the higher ranked team is at least 10 spots higher than the underdog.  As you can see, the higher ranked teams are 7-0 in these games.  This might fall into the 1-in-8 probability that you suggested which means that we are about due. 

FearlessF

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Re: 2019 B1G-W Race
« Reply #51 on: May 30, 2019, 03:41:27 PM »
18-4 is amazing and will not continue
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

MrNubbz

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Re: 2019 B1G-W Race
« Reply #52 on: May 30, 2019, 03:42:33 PM »
Second, any attempts to produce balanced divisions is always skewed by Ohio State.  Whatever division Ohio State is put in, ends up being the top division.  Once you get past OSU, the divisions have been fairly competitive.  In the conference, there is not a Big 2, or Big 4.  There really is only a Big 1. 
tOSU has lost quite a bit to the Sunday League the last 2 seasons,not sure of others additions/subtractions.Quite a bit of transitions in the coaching  ranks also.So ya know the rest of the conference might want to find it in their hearts to ease up a little as these forboding clouds appear on the horizon


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medinabuckeye1

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Re: 2019 B1G-W Race
« Reply #53 on: May 30, 2019, 03:43:19 PM »
18-4 is amazing and will not continue
Exactly, I think we are due for a haywire year where we have 2+ major CG upsets that throw the CFP selections into chaos. 

MrNubbz

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Re: 2019 B1G-W Race
« Reply #54 on: May 30, 2019, 03:43:33 PM »
18-4 is amazing and will not continue
That's just crazy talk
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FearlessF

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Re: 2019 B1G-W Race
« Reply #55 on: May 30, 2019, 03:45:06 PM »
Exactly, I think we are due for a haywire year where we have 2+ major CG upsets that throw the CFP selections into chaos. 
and then the knee jerk reactions that are sure to follow...........
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

 

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