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Topic: 2018-2019 B1G Basketball Thread

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RestingB!tchFace

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Re: 2018-2019 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #1232 on: January 30, 2019, 12:57:54 PM »
Is the complaint thay Iowa is ahead of Minn?
Nah.  Mostly just confusion over how tiers are established and judged.  Like Nebraska seems to have taken a major tumble due to the loss of Copeland.  Gophers are being judged harshly based upon their road loss against Illinois.  A game where the Illini shot 50% from three and over 50% from the field.  Meanwhile.....Maryland is sitting cozy at tier 3 and just lost AT HOME to the same dismal Illinois team.  But results only matter sometimes.

Anonymous Coward

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Re: 2018-2019 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #1233 on: January 30, 2019, 12:59:31 PM »
I'm just glad that the user-emotion/schedule-dependent based system that's used here isn't taken seriously outside of this thread.  Do results matter anymore?
You seem very confident in Minnesota, and if that confidence is deserved, medina has already offered you a future cookie (that Minnesota will inevitably move up, maybe way up, if they finish better than 4-7 over these final 11 games, probably +/- 1, depending on whether UNL plummets).

You either don't understand that the tiers are meant to stably predict how the season will end or you aren't interested in patiently waiting to prove that you were right and that the tiers were wrong (I.E.: too stable/way off on the Gophers).

JerseyTerrapin

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Re: 2018-2019 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #1234 on: January 30, 2019, 01:05:22 PM »
Probably UW too...
Based on posts below yours, I think it's Maryland that RBF has issues with.  
Speaking for myself, I'd be okay with dropping them a few tiers.  It will save me a few tears... :03:

Anonymous Coward

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Re: 2018-2019 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #1235 on: January 30, 2019, 01:10:10 PM »
Word play!

847badgerfan

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Re: 2018-2019 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #1236 on: January 30, 2019, 01:13:02 PM »
Based on posts below yours, I think it's Maryland that RBF has issues with.  
Speaking for myself, I'd be okay with dropping them a few tiers.  It will save me a few tears... :03:
If they lose to UNL, they will drop. Losing to UW Monday will not do it.
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RestingB!tchFace

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Re: 2018-2019 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #1237 on: January 30, 2019, 01:14:36 PM »
You seem very confident in Minnesota, and if that confidence is deserved, medina has already offered you a future cookie (that Minnesota will inevitably move up, maybe way up, if they finish better than 4-7 over these final 11 games, probably +/- 1, depending on whether UNL plummets).

You either don't understand that the tiers are meant to stably predict how the season will end or you aren't interested in patiently waiting to prove that you were right and that the tiers were wrong (I.E.: too stable/way off on the Gophers).
My point is that....you could have them two tiers up (for no specific reason) and the determining factors that move teams up and down wouldn't really move them at all.  Especially considering that the Illinois loss doesn't seem to have as much effect on Maryland as it would appear to have on Minnesota.

847badgerfan

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Re: 2018-2019 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #1238 on: January 30, 2019, 01:25:42 PM »
My point is that....you could have them two tiers up (for no specific reason) and the determining factors that move teams up and down wouldn't really move them at all.  Especially considering that the Illinois loss doesn't seem to have as much effect on Maryland as it would appear to have on Minnesota.
I just had a detailed analysis of the tiers as currently constituted, compared with Minnesota's schedule/results. The internet ate it. 

Just look at the tiers and look at results. The tiers are working as expected.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: 2018-2019 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #1239 on: January 30, 2019, 01:53:15 PM »
There is an argument for moving Illinois up and that would help Minnesota by eliminating their negative upset.  As mentioned, Illinois is at +2.  Moving them up into tier-6 would impact the projections for their home games against tier-5 teams:
I think there should be some hesitation as it relates to moving down teams in tier 1 or moving teams up in the bottom tier. 
The simple fact is that when you're predicted to win almost all your games, there almost zero opportunity for positive variance. When you're predicted to lose almost all your games, there's almost zero opportunity for negative variance. But good teams have the occasional bad day, and bad teams have the occasional good day. 

And it's especially true that a lot of the weaker teams in the B1G don't lack talent. They often are young, have coaching issues, etc. But Illinois recruits good players. When they have a good day, they can knock off almost anyone and it's an "upset", but when they have a bad day, none of their losses are "upsets". Whereas I think Wisconsin at one point this year was even with +2 and -2 variance. Their inconsistency meant their good day could be an upset, but since they were in the middle, their bad days could also be upsets.

So while we generally consider +1 or -1 as "on notice", I think for a team like Illinois one should be very slow to move them up, even at +2, unless their play on the court actually looks like they're putting it together. 

RestingB!tchFace

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Re: 2018-2019 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #1240 on: January 30, 2019, 02:10:26 PM »
I just had a detailed analysis of the tiers as currently constituted, compared with Minnesota's schedule/results. The internet ate it.

Just look at the tiers and look at results. The tiers are working as expected.
As I said....you could shuffle teams up or down a tier or two and the system would still be working as expected.  So there is plenty of bias built in.  As I said with Nebraska.  They lost Copeland.  Instead of waiting for results, they drop like a brick.  There's some human judgement involved.  Maryland lost on their home court to bottom tier Illinois.  With Minnesota....you're using their loss to Illinois to offset their road win against Wisconsin.  For Maryland....nothing changes.  Despite the fact that they lost on their home court to a team ranked WAY lower.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: 2018-2019 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #1241 on: January 30, 2019, 02:18:52 PM »
My point is that....you could have them two tiers up (for no specific reason) and the determining factors that move teams up and down wouldn't really move them at all.  Especially considering that the Illinois loss doesn't seem to have as much effect on Maryland as it would appear to have on Minnesota.
Two big things here. 
  • As stated, part of the purpose of the tiers is to "smooth out" issues. Sometimes a streak of wins and losses is due to a team playing well or badly. Sometimes it's due to playing really poor or really good competition [factoring in home/away]. We as fans tend to overrated streaks, and this is a way to moderate that impulse and not move teams up or down until they prove it. 
  • This is by nature mostly backward-looking. Towards the beginning of the year, and as we approach conference play, tiers are set both by perception and by OOC results. Teams like Nebraska started the year VERY strong and teams like Minnesota didn't, so their initial perception coupled with the inherent "smoothing" function of waiting until a team has enough variance (i.e. upsets) from projection before moving them causes us sometimes to be a bit slow to change. But that's by design.

Nebraska is currently 21st in Sagarin but their "recent" results would have them 78th. They're trending down HARD, and with the Copeland injury, we're trying to address that. 

Maryland is currently 23rd in Sagarin, and their "recent" results are 25th. So they're not showing a strong trend down, despite the loss to Illinois and the -1 variance. So we may have them "on notice" that the gap to Purdue (9th) and the gap to the teams below them (OSU at 34th, Iowa at 35th) might suggest moving them down. But there's no CLEAR signal here yet, so they remain where they are. 

Minnesota is currently 51st in Sagarin, 9th in the conference. Their "recent" would be 65th nationally, so they're not strongly trending up or down. So right now we're in a wait and see mode until we know more. There's no clear signal either way.

So right now Minnesota has no variance. There's one positive upset and one negative. If that variance starts to justify a move, they'll be moved. 

Anonymous Coward

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Re: 2018-2019 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #1242 on: January 30, 2019, 02:34:36 PM »
My point is that....you could have them two tiers up (for no specific reason) and the determining factors that move teams up and down wouldn't really move them at all.  Especially considering that the Illinois loss doesn't seem to have as much effect on Maryland as it would appear to have on Minnesota.
Let's do this a different way:
  • What's your record prediction for Minnesota these final 11 games?
  • And if your prediction is 4-7 or 5-8, do you still think Minnesota is mis-tiered?

Entropy

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Re: 2018-2019 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #1243 on: January 30, 2019, 02:55:13 PM »
btw... while I've said UNL should be a tier 4 for some time... and now agree w/ the tier 6....  please don't mistake that for suggesting this thread is wrong/bad/silly/etc...  I've enjoyed the different perspectives and what the group is trying to accomplish.  

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: 2018-2019 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #1244 on: January 30, 2019, 03:22:42 PM »
Minnesota will get moved up if, and only if, they win some games that they are not projected to win.  Going forward:

  • vIL tonight - projected win - 7.29 point favorites
  • @PU on 2/3 - projected loss - 11.26 point dogs
  • vUW on 2/6 - projected win - 3.51 point dogs
  • @MSU on 2/9 - projected loss - 16.12 point dogs
  • @UNL on 2/13 - projected loss - 7.96 point dogs ----- using Sagarin "recent", 1.69 point dogs
  • vIU on 2/16 - projected win - 0.25 point favorites
  • vM on 2/21 - projected loss - 6.68 point dogs
  • @RU on 2/24 - projected win - 2.05 point favorites
  • @NU on 2/28 - projected loss - 2.28 point dogs
  • vPU on 3/5 - projected loss - 4.98 point dogs
  • @UMD on 3/8 - projected loss - 7.78 point dogs

We project that your Gophers will go just 4-7 in their last 11 games.  Maybe you are right and they'll do better than that.  If they win some of those games that we project them to lose (and don't lose offsetting games that we project them to win) then we'll adjust accordingly.  For now, there isn't any reason to elevate them because the two upsets offset and they are exactly where we would project them to be.  
I annotated with the current Sagarin spreads. That has Minnesota with a 3-8 record in their last 11. I added a separate calculation for Nebraska, as they're trending down hard, so using the Sagarin "recent" metrics, it doesn't change the outcome but it changes the spread significantly. 
Now, this doesn't mean that agreeing with Sagarin makes our own predictions more reliable. But it would show that compared to other common metrics out there in the world, this isn't us just pulling crap out of thin air on a whim. If we're wrong, we're at least wrong with company. 

RestingB!tchFace

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Re: 2018-2019 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #1245 on: January 30, 2019, 03:44:19 PM »
Again....many of the metrics that you use are based upon efficiency rather than results.  It makes little sense.  Jerry Palm on the other hand....hasn't bent the knee.  


https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/bracketology/


It's ridiculous that future results are based upon things like efficiency.  Especially when efficiency ratings do not consider strength of opponent.  Again....results don't seem to matter.  Flawed judgement plays a role.

 

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