CFB51 College Football Fan Community
The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: OrangeAfroMan on December 24, 2023, 11:33:49 PM
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Forget top 100 players, this is more manageable.
I have a big, handsome SI college football book and the centerfold is a hand-drawn illustration of their all-time team.
So I'll post it, and you simply just share your edits. The rule is whoever you take off, you have to say who you would replace him with.
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QB/P: Sammy Baugh TCU
RB: Glenn Davis ARMY
RB: Red Grange ILL
RB: Jim Brown SYR
RB: Herschel Walker UGA
RB: Jim Thorpe CARL
RB Doak Walker SMU
RB/RET: Gale Sayers KU
FB/DT: Bronko Nagurski MINN
WR: Jerry Rice MVSU
End: Leon Hart ND
WR: Johnny Rodgers UNL
T: Orlando Pace OSU
T: Ron Yary USC
G: John Hannah ALA
G: Pudge Heffelfinger YALE
C/LB: Chuck Bednarik PENN
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DE: Bubba Smith MSU
DE: Hugh Green PITT
DT: Lee Roy Selmon OU
LB: Jack Ham PSU
LB: Tommy Nobis TEX
LB: Lawrence Taylor UNC
CB/WR: Charles Woodson UM
CB: Deion Sanders FSU
S: Kenny Easley UCLA
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HC: Knute Rockne ND
HC: Bear Bryant ALA, A&M, UK
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So there's 26 players. Definitely skews old school - lots of backs, some of which would play defense as well. A few 2-way players. No kicker...I guess they're going for it and going for 2 all the time.
Who would you replace and with whom?
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Tebow over Baugh.
Bo in for Thorpe.
Butkus in for Bednarik. I know the Ivy League was legit back in the day, but by WWII, the Big Ten was as good or better.
Will Shields in for Huffer Puff or whoever. Having some dude no one's ever heard of was dumb on their part.
Fitzgerald in over Rice (yes, I lowball FCS players, but if Rice went on to be a 5th round draft pick and fizzled out 2 years in the NFL, I don't think he'd be on all these all-time teams for college).
Derrick Thomas in for Ham.
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that's a lot of work on Xmas day
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Yeah.. I'd have trouble getting it down to 1000!
Best since 2004 maybe? 20 years?
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Ol' Spaghetti Legs from the nineteen dicketies has got to be up there.
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Yeah, I have another idea. Hold my eggnog.
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QB: Tim Tebow UF
RB: Glenn Davis ARMY
RB: Red Grange ILL
RB: Jim Brown SYR
RB: Herschel Walker UGA
RB: Bo Jackson AUB
RB Doak Walker SMU
RB/RET: Gale Sayers KU
FB/DT: Bronko Nagurski MINN
WR: Larry Fitzgerald PITT
End: Leon Hart ND
WR: Johnny Rodgers UNL
T: Orlando Pace OSU
T: Ron Yary USC
G: John Hannah ALA
G: Will Shields UNL
C/LB: Dick Butkus ILL
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DE: Bubba Smith MSU
DE: Hugh Green PITT
DT: Lee Roy Selmon OU
DT: Ndomukong Suh UNL
LB: Derrick Thomas ALA
LB: Tommy Nobis TEX
LB: Lawrence Taylor UNC
CB/WR: Charles Woodson UM
CB: Deion Sanders FSU
S: Kenny Easley UCLA
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HC: Knute Rockne ND
HC: Bear Bryant ALA, A&M, UK
Here's mine.
I'd also probably remove a RB and add a DT (Doak for Suh).
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We'd run a single-wing and I truly believe we'd never have to pass, even against this defense.
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Earl Campbell should at least be mentioned
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Earl Campbell should at least be mentioned
I agree. How can an all-time team not have him and/or Ricky Williams?
You could make the argument that having Davis AND Grange AND Sayers is overkill. Why do you need 3 small/fast guys?
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I would substitute WR/KR/CB Woodson for QB/RB/KR/CB Nile Kinnick. To this day Kinnick still holds the Iowa career record for defensive interceptions.
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Earl Campbell should at least be mentioned
Nice mention
Barry Sanders
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I would substitute WR/KR/CB Woodson for QB/RB/KR/CB Nile Kinnick. To this day Kinnick still holds the Iowa career record for defensive interceptions.
I'd consider it cheating, but maybe include Kinnick at CB and move Woodson to safety.
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Nice mention
Barry Sanders
Replacing who?
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QB: Tim Tebow UF
RB: Glenn Davis ARMY
RB: Red Grange ILL
RB: Earl Campbell TEX
RB: Herschel Walker UGA
RB: Bo Jackson AUB
RB/RET: Barry Sanders OKST
FB/DT: Bronko Nagurski MINN
WR: Larry Fitzgerald PITT
End: Leon Hart ND
WR: Johnny Rodgers UNL
T: Orlando Pace OSU
T: Ron Yary USC
G: John Hannah ALA
G: Will Shields UNL
C/LB: Dick Butkus ILL
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DE: Bubba Smith MSU
DE: Hugh Green PITT
DT: Lee Roy Selmon OU
DT: Ndomukong Suh UNL
LB: Derrick Thomas ALA
LB: Tommy Nobis TEX
LB: Lawrence Taylor UNC
CB/WR: Charles Woodson UM
CB: Deion Sanders FSU
S: Kenny Easley UCLA
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HC: Knute Rockne ND
HC: Bear Bryant ALA, A&M, UK
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Sanders in for Sayers.
Campbell in for Brown.
Again, those are guys that NFL achievements inflate their college reputations.
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Is Saban over Rockne crazy?
Reed or Sean Taylor in for Easley?
I think Eric Berry at Tennessee might be the best college safety I ever saw play.
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Replacing who?
Any of the RBs. He's #1 in my opinion
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QB: Tim Tebow UF
RB: Glenn Davis ARMY
RB: Red Grange ILL
RB: Earl Campbell TEX
RB: Herschel Walker UGA
RB: Bo Jackson AUB
RB/RET: Barry Sanders OKST
FB/DT: Bronko Nagurski MINN
WR: Larry Fitzgerald PITT
End: Leon Hart ND
WR: Johnny Rodgers UNL
T: Orlando Pace OSU
T: Ron Yary USC
G: John Hannah ALA
G: Will Shields UNL
C/LB: Dick Butkus ILL
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DE: Bubba Smith MSU
DE: Hugh Green PITT
DT: Lee Roy Selmon OU
DT: Ndomukong Suh UNL
LB: Derrick Thomas ALA
LB: Tommy Nobis TEX
LB: Lawrence Taylor UNC
CB: Nile Kinnick IOWA
CB: Deion Sanders FSU
S: Kenny Easley UCLA
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HC: Knute Rockne ND
HC: Bear Bryant ALA, A&M, UK
How's this?
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I think it's too broad, in terms of spanning eras.
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How's this?
I'd replace Shields at guard with Dean Stienkuhler
I like Suh.
I don't buy Kinnick at corner, but didn't see him play.
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I think it's too broad, in terms of spanning eras.
Maybe pre and post WWII teams? Or further back, like 1970 or so?
I like that idea.
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I would substitute WR/KR/CB Woodson for QB/RB/KR/CB Nile Kinnick. To this day Kinnick still holds the Iowa career record for defensive interceptions.
You forgot, Punter. I am not sure if KR is Kicker or Kick Returner. He was the last of the great drop kickers, even though the shape of the ball changed to the modern ball at the start of his college career. He drop-kicked an extra point to defeat ND, when ND missed its extra point in 1939. As a kid he drop-kicked the old footballs against a barn for practice. Kinnick wasn't just All American; he was all everything.
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I'd replace Shields at guard with Dean Stienkuhler
I like Suh.
I don't buy Kinnick at corner, but didn't see him play.
Youngster. I think he was pretty good. Iowa corners such as Desmond King, have tied the single season record of 8, but helped preserve Kinnick's single season interception record of eight. However Kinnick did it in 9-games. I think King had 13-games.
Devon Mitchell had 18 interceptions in 4-years, whereas Kinnick had 18 interceptions in 3-years with many fewer games, and many fewer passing plays.
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And a much MUCH higher passing INT rate overall.
Those gentlemen were lobbing it up for grabs, lol.
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Maybe pre and post WWII teams? Or further back, like 1970 or so?
I like that idea.
Maybe 2000-Present
1970-1999
1946-1969
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Maybe 2000-Present
1970-1999
1946-1969
Jeez, might as well have a top 100, lol.
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Randy Moss in over Fitzgerald.
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Youngster. I think he was pretty good. Iowa corners such as Desmond King, have tied the single season record of 8, but helped preserve Kinnick's single season interception record of eight. However Kinnick did it in 9-games. I think King had 13-games.
Devon Mitchell had 18 interceptions in 4-years, whereas Kinnick had 18 interceptions in 3-years with many fewer games, and many fewer passing plays.
Thanks for the compliment.
I wholeheartedly agree Nile was pretty good. Just questioning one of the all-time greats.
I also don't think INTs are the best measure of a corner, but a measure none the less.
Perhaps the gentlemen listed below should get consideration??
Most interceptions, career
29 – Al Brosky, Illinois, 1950–52 (appears Al played 3 seasons)
Most interceptions, season
14 – Al Worley, Washington, 1968
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Jay Berwanger of the University of Chicago won the first Heisman.
In 1935.
Could he do that today?
Not a chance.
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is Jay worthy of the all-time team?
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How would I know?
How would anyone know?
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Jay Berwanger of the University of Chicago won the first Heisman.
In 1935.
Could he do that today?
Not a chance.
Right, cuz he's dead.
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Right, cuz he's dead.
And even if he wasn't, he'd get killed anyway.
Maybe 1960 is a good stop point.
I'm sure Butkus and Sayers could play today's game.
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I think it's interesting, following a slew of all-century teams released around 2000, we've had 20+ Heismans awarded, but the main "newbies" included on all-time teams seem to be Suh, Fitzgerald, and Tebow/Young. Only 1 Heisman among them.
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And even if he wasn't, he'd get killed anyway.
Maybe 1960 is a good stop point.
I'm sure Butkus and Sayers could play today's game.
Not a lot of 160 lb white guys winning Heismans, you're right.
Today's game is very different than even 10 years ago. Butkus probably ran a 4.8 forty. With all this passing going on today, he couldn't get on the field.
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Okay, I did 2 teams, with 1970 being the cutoff:
(https://i.imgur.com/WKNcmVR.jpg)
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Exercises like this really show how Pitt has underperformed as a program.
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Position: Halfback
Years: 1937-1939
Place of Birth: Adel, IA
Date of Birth: Jul 09, 1918
Place of Death: Gulf of Paria, Venezuela
Date of Death: Jun 02, 1943
Jersey Number: 24
Height: 5-8
Weight: 167
High School: Omaha, NE (Benson HS)
Iowa halfback Nile Kinnick, was the picture of football brilliance, leading Iowa to a 6-1-1 record while running, passing, or kicking for 107 of the Hawkeyes' 130 points. Nile led the nation in kickoff return yardage (377 yards) and was second in interceptions with eight.
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(https://i.imgur.com/QFCqnxA.png)
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I was thinking about the peak vs average thing.....some people, and most people back in the day, especially, valued peak. What's the best you could do? It's really been valued in football.
But why isn't it valued at all in music?
Many will put Barry Sanders alongside or even above Herschel Walker or Ron Dayne, but none of you would put A-ha (Take on Me) up there with the Beatles or Stones.
Why?
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Eyeball test
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College football one-hit wonders (only started 1 season or only had 1 big season):
Roger Staubach (look up his Heisman follow-up season) QB NAVY
Cam Newton QB AUB
Barry Sanders RB OKST
Maurice Clarett RB OSU
Scooby Wright LB ARI
Chuba Hubbard RB OKST
Larry Johnson RB PSU
Greg Middleton DE IU
basically 1/3 of all RBs ever
Brad Banks QB IOWA
Rudi Johnson RB AUB
Corey Dillon RB UW
Akili Smith QB ORE
Damien Anderson RB NW
Mac Jones QB ALA
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Who'd I forget?
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TJ Watt was a backup, had a big season and went to the NFL. Frankly several of UW's OLBs did that.
O'Brien Schofield was a nice starter as a junior, borderline AA as a senior.
There was a WR at South Carolina this year whose best season before this year was 167 yards on 18 catches. As a super senior, he was 7th in the NCAA in receiving yards.
Max Duggan was a three-year starter who couldn't hold onto the job and then was second in Heisman voting.
Burrow started two, but was real mid in the first one and then historic.
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College football one-hit wonders
Who'd I forget?
Of all the guys on that list......
Barry is the only one anyone would say was great
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Great, but his greatness happened in 1 season.
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Single season record that still stands.
Yup
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Fun fact: ZERO kickers made 75%+ of their FGs for a career pre-1980.
Even with those wide-ass goalposts.
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Single season record that still stands.
Yup
Okay, so why isn't the top-selling one-hit wonder of all time considered an all-time great artist/band?
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Pop music sucks
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Fun fact: ZERO kickers made 75%+ of their FGs for a career pre-1980.
Even with those wide-ass goalposts.
Thanks for the reminder.
Husker kicker best all-time
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None of the top 200 FG kickers by accuracy played before 1980.
That's insane.
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Fun fact: ZERO kickers made 75%+ of their FGs for a career pre-1980.
Even with those wide-ass goalposts.
and the kicking block!(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81Mq0GVOYFL._AC_SX679_.jpg)
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Similar to passing completion percentage?
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we also forget the hashmarks were even wider back then too. short kicks in the even wider hash mark era were parlor games.
I've talked to many a kicker and they all agree, NFL hashmarks are very K friendly relative to college.
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Dale Klien was still kicking Square toe in the early 80s
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speaking of records that still stand. Klein's 7 FG made in a very unconventional 28-21 win over Mizzou. Speaking of American style kickers, pretty funny to think back at that early 80s NFL season and learn that K Mark Moseley was your NFL MVP! 20-21 FG (long of 48) and 16/19 PATs in a strike shortened 9 game season.
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speaking of records that still stand. Klein's 7 FG made in a very unconventional 28-21 win over Mizzou. Speaking of American style kickers, pretty funny to think back at that early 80s NFL season and learn that K Mark Moseley was your NFL MVP! 20-21 FG (long of 48) and 16/19 PATs in a strike shortened 9 game season.
People were dumb in the early 80s.
See: RP Willie Hernandez winning the Cy Young and MVP in 1984. Brutal.
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The best running back to ever play at RBU is on my all-time team.
(https://i.imgur.com/fdoGtF4.png)
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It took 35 years for a RB to have a 3-year career to rival Herschel's.
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Guys you could defensibly put on the all-time team:
Jonathan Taylor
Eric Berry
Terrell Suggs
Sean Taylor
Johnny Manziel
Dre Bly
Peter Boulware
Patrick Willis
Baker Mayfield
for lower-level WR: Troy Edwards > Jerry Rice
Bryce Love
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Only 3 players have multiple 1900 yard rushing seasons. DeAngelo Williams had 2 at Memphis (vs a Memphis schedule). Troy Davis had 2 at ISU. The other?
Jonathan Taylor. 3 such seasons. Only two other dudes in history have 2 (1 vs G5 schedule) and Taylor has 3.
That's nuts.
Also nuts: none of those seasons earned a Heisman.
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People were dumb in the early 80s.
See: RP Willie Hernandez winning the Cy Young and MVP in 1984. Brutal.
1984 was particularly dumb
5'9" QB @ BC wins hypesman - BYU wins MNC with best win over 6-6 team
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No running back will ever win the Heisman, in my opinion. Taylor was generational. He deserved to win one or three.
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Yes, but he got stuffed by OSU twice in their 3 games, and lost all 3. Wisconsin lost every big game Taylor played in.
I think it's stupid - team results heavily influencing an individual award.
But if he went crazy and Wisconsin won the B1G, he'd probably have won a Heisman.
Stupid voters, though. Limited sheep.
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FWIW (nothing), I feel like lists like these need to completely set aside pro careers. For instance, as noted above, I don't know how Jerry Rice makes this list. So the best arguments will come for players who were starters for three or even four years. Barry Sanders is one of the greatest RBs of all time, but did he do enough as a college player to be on the college list? Weighting the number of years played benefits the older guys because the best players don't stick around anymore.
With that in mind, where are our OSU fans arguing for Archie Griffen?
Saban over either Rockne or Bryant. I argue that Saban is clearly the GOAT of college football coaches. Sure, we're nostalgic, but Saban's accomplishments are insane given the current state of the game.
What about Vince Young as a college QB? (Not in place of Tebow, I don't think, but with as many RBs as are on this list, how about a two-deep at QB?
I agree that JT was the best back to play at Wisconsin, but as far as college careers go, was his better than Dayne's? Would I take either of them over Jim Brown? (No.)
And yeah, I have no idea how to evaluate Glenn Davis. Best player on the best team? Yes. Playing during an unusually skewed era (the war years)? Yes. Playing in a completely different environment than today's game. Were his--not his team's--collegiate accomplishments better than Archie Griffin's, or Ricky Williams', or ...
My list would definitely skew more modern, with an old-timers' list that probably cuts off in the 1950s or so. Once you get to a Jim Brown, Alan Page, Lynn Swan, Butkus, etc., those guys feel like they could be modern football players. (Yes, they would have to be bigger and faster, but the game feels a lot closer than what was happening in the Glenn Davis era).
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Yeah, it's an interesting conversation.
If other modern RBs' careers don't add up to Dayne's, how does Jim Brown's?
But yes, one of my biggest frustrations with these debates/convos is the vast majority of people being utterly incapable of divorcing pro production with college.
It's not that hard.
Hell, I could make the case that Jim Brown would be a random dude lost to time if he hadn't dominated the NFL for a decade.
Tell me about Bob Anderson.
Who?
He's some RB for Army in 1957 whose stats dwarfed the Heisman winner's that year. No outrage that he didn't win it or finish higher. No all-time teams. No nothing.
WWII Army teams were stacked. Of course. But I look at them like the 13-0 team with a weak schedule......they MAY be all-time great, but we don't KNOW, because of a lack of challenges.
So a great player on a stacked team would have to have crazy stats, like 10 yards per carry or something insane like that.
Glenn Davis did that in '44 and '45. So while we don't KNOW he was an all-time great, he did what an all-time great would do in his situation.
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FWIW (nothing), I feel like lists like these need to completely set aside pro careers. For instance, as noted above, I don't know how Jerry Rice makes this list. So the best arguments will come for players who were starters for three or even four years. Barry Sanders is one of the greatest RBs of all time, but did he do enough as a college player to be on the college list? Weighting the number of years played benefits the older guys because the best players don't stick around anymore.
Most receptions, game
FCS: 24 – Chas Gessner, Brown vs. Rhode Island, Oct. 5, 2002; Jerry Rice, Mississippi Valley vs. Southern, Oct. 1, 1983
Highest receiving yards per game, season
FCS: 168.2 – Jerry Rice, Mississippi Valley, 1984
Most receiving touchdowns, season
FCS: 27 – Jerry Rice, Mississippi Valley, 1984
Records that still stand after 40 years and a couple more that may have been taken recently by Cooper Kupp in 2016
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FCS.
Put Walter Payton in too while yer at it.
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I agree that JT was the best back to play at Wisconsin, but as far as college careers go, was his better than Dayne's? Would I take either of them over Jim Brown? (No.)
the old question for all-time great......
greatest single season or greatest career?
I can't just eliminate a Barry Sanders because he only started one season. Thurman Thomas on one end and the NFL on the other end.
some of the greatest RBs played at places like Oklahoma, Texas, USC, Ohio St., Nebraska that had rosters stacked with 4 or 5 or 6 GREAT players. no scholarship limits.
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FCS.
Put Walter Payton in too while yer at it.
don't see his name on the all-time records list, but he was a few years back
Here's one from a long time ago.....
Highest average rushing yards per game, career (minimum 2,500 yards)
FBS: 174.6 – Ed Marinaro, Cornell, 1969–71, 4,715 yards in 27 games[10]
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don't see his name on the all-time records list, but he was a few years back
Here's one from a long time ago.....
Highest average rushing yards per game, career (minimum 2,500 yards)
FBS: 174.6 – Ed Marinaro, Cornell, 1969–71, 4,715 yards in 27 games[10]
Walter played RB, LB, KR and PK for Jackson State.
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We don't have to eliminate a Barry Sanders. We are comparing production x volume. Take the names out of it.
523 carries for 3,556 yards (6.8 ypc) and 48 TDs
vs
1,115 carries for 6,397 yards (5.7 ypc) and 63 TDs
On a per-carry basis, the first RB is better. Of course.
But is he TWICE as good??
With half the carries, wouldn't he need to be twice as good?
If you do side with the first RB, what about this guy?
926 carries for 6,174 yards (6.7 ypc) and 50 TDs
The per-carry difference is negligible and the third RB has far more volume at that rate.
Isn't he better than either of them??
Here is where our eyes deceive us.
We allow running style to affect our opinions. If a RB is herky-jerky and entertaining and runs in a unique way we've never seen (and no coach would ever teach), we deem them 'better,' even if the numbers are comparable.
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don't see his name on the all-time records list, but he was a few years back
Here's one from a long time ago.....
Highest average rushing yards per game, career (minimum 2,500 yards)
FBS: 174.6 – Ed Marinaro, Cornell, 1969–71, 4,715 yards in 27 games[10]
He had Ivy League blocking, but against Ivy League defenses.
Is his very pedestrian 5.1 ypc for his career acceptable with such a high volume? He was basically the Herschel Walker of the Ivy League.
But if someone has 900 carries for 5000 yards at Georgia vs Cornell, isn't that a big difference?
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Fun fact on Barry Sanders' record-setting 1988 Heisman season:
he averaged 7.6 ypc!!
His backup averaged 7.9 ypc.
lol
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Walter played RB, LB, KR and PK for Jackson State.
almost as impressive as Nile Kinnick
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Fun fact on Barry Sanders' record-setting 1988 Heisman season:
he averaged 7.6 ypc!!
His backup averaged 7.9 ypc.
lol
this happened often at Nebraska and Oklahoma
the 2nd or 3rd string RB would come in in the 2nd half with a fresh O-line after the opposing defense was beat down and run wild breaking big plays.
the opposing defense wasn't laughing out loud
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Fun fact on Barry Sanders' record-setting 1988 Heisman season:
he averaged 7.6 ypc!!
His backup averaged 7.9 ypc.
lol
a perfect case of lies, damned lies, and statistics
his backup MUST have been better
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The real answer why is small sample size.
But narratives are more fun.
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Instead of old-timey vs recent all-time teams, we could have:
high volume team (Dayne, Herschel, etc)
low volume team (B.Sanders, Manziel, etc)
lower-division team (G5 and below)
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You want to make it easy???