CFB51 College Football Fan Community
The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: Mdot21 on May 22, 2020, 08:43:44 PM
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This list has to be schools that recruit big-time recruits at these positions, only to see mediocre or below mediocre results for the position relative to their recruiting hype.
QB: Michigan
Honorable Mention: Tennessee
RB: Florida
Honorable Mention: Miami (FL)
WR: Michigan
Honorable Mention: Auburn
TE: Georgia
Honorable Mention: Florida State
OL: Florida State
Honorable Mention: Tennessee
DL: Texas
Honorable Mention: Oklahoma
LB: Oklahoma
Honorable Mention: USC
DB: Texas
Honorable Mention: USC
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DL - UNL
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Some recency bias there.
Oklahoma has had great linebackers in the past. And without Million-Dollar Mike Effing Stoops as DC, they will again.
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Some recency bias there.
Oklahoma has had great linebackers in the past. And without Million-Dollar Mike Effing Stoops as DC, they will again.
of course it's recency biased lol. The list is the here and now, not all-time.
If I made a list of where players go to thrive- Oklahoma would probably be #1 at QB and WR.
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Yeah the Michigan QBs used to come off of an assembly line.
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I think it's fair to say tight ends have underperformed at UGA of late, after some pretty good ones in the past. That has been a topic of "discussion", failure to utilize.
This was curious last year when they had their few good WRs injured or suspended so often.
Oddly enough, UGA QBs get drafted frequently, especially if you include the ones who transferred. They of late have usually not started.
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Why a 5* QB is committed to Michigan right now is beyond me.
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Tennessee gets good QB recruits?
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The other thing with this is you basically have to be a helmet, or recruit like it to even be on it. Most schools don't have enough 5* type prospects, certainly at any one position, to have enough major busts.
MSU has done a bad job developing offensive linemen. Not really many (any?) big prospects there. A couple 4* guys, but OL is such a crapshoot, that other teams seemed to find the 3* and develop them that MSU seemingly couldn't, aside from the one extreme case where a walk on became an All American.
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Tennessee gets good QB recruits?
They had a solid run there from like 2000-2010. Ainge, James Banks, Clausen? Guarantano was actually a 5* I think, as is the kid they have coming in.
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Why a 5* QB is committed to Michigan right now is beyond me.
Tradition mostly.
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of course it's recency biased lol. The list is the here and now, not all-time.
If I made a list of where players go to thrive- Oklahoma would probably be #1 at QB and WR.
I know.
I'm just saying that that situation at LB is about to turn around. DL too.
I think.
Million-Dollar Mike left us with a bad rep that has to be overcome by on-field improvement.
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Tennessee gets good QB recruits?
They get some, and they disappear. They some dude named Manning a while back who was decent.
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Didn't Heath Shuler play at Tennessee?
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Didn't Heath Shuler play at Tennessee?
For all intents and purposes, that was the last place he played.
Speaking of 90s QB busts, with the Ryan Leaf news last night, I was reading his bio. Obviously he was bad, but I didn't realize just how horrible his rookie season was, and the full extent of not giving an F he put in. My god, Rodney Harrison said he saw guys who just got paid and then didn't put the work in, but Leaf was the one guy who seemed to actively put the work in to alienate his teammates. Then watched a little bit of his debut game against the Bills. First two plays were a fumbled snap, and a screen pass to absolutely nobody. He was totally overwhelmed, but the worst part is he looked neither overwhelmed, nor like it was going to be ok. He was just like, "well, this is this"
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I imagine if you are 22 and get some guaranteed contract of say $16 million, you could figure "I'm set for life, F it.". Of course, you might lean by age 40 it didn't stretch like you wanted, by the time taxes were withheld, and you paid your agent, and then had to pay health insurance and the going bill for that $2 million house you bought.
One needs a lot of money to retire at 22, much more than if you retire at say 40.
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He came out early, and got $11 million guaranteed. $11 million to a 21 year old in San Diego with a drug addiction can go quickly
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I'm not sure what RBs Florida has squandered.
Going back, all I can think of is Mon Williams, who was like 6'3" and from TX, I believe. He just didn't get on the field. And the guy who was 2nd in all the FL HS rushing records, but he tore his knee up twice. Ah, that was Willie Green.
A time frame would be useful here, but oh well.
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I'm not sure what RBs Florida has squandered.
Going back, all I can think of is Mon Williams, who was like 6'3" and from TX, I believe. He just didn't get on the field. And the guy who was 2nd in all the FL HS rushing records, but he tore his knee up twice. Ah, that was Willie Green.
A time frame would be useful here, but oh well.
I'm bored and gonna look at it. 247 has top recruits, at least the top 247 of them (Cheeky). Here's the top backs they've gotten, which accounts for a lot of but not all the four/five-stars.
Ciatrick Fason No. 9 nationally Topped out at No. 1,267, so good
Kelvin Taylor No. 21 Topped out at 1,035, never a high end stud, but a low-end one
DeShawn Wynn No. 48 Best year was 699 yards in 14 games, was a starter on a title team
Chris Rainey No. 45 Peaked at 861 yards, but was solid every year
Mike Blakely No. 58 Quit
Willie Green No. 103 Body fell apart
Mon Williams 95 Bust, RIP
Jordan Scarlett No. 117 Ran for 889 and 776 yards around an injury, so fine
Chevon Walker 107 Bust
Bo Williams 132 Left
Mark Thompson No. 5 JUCO Two so-so years as a third stringer
Mike Gillislee No. 144 Ended career as a 1,100 yard back
Dameon Pierce No. 201 Not high usage, but effective in first two years
Nay'Quan Wright No. 261 Hardley played as a freshman
D'Anfernee McGriff No. 257 Didn't make it
Adam Lane No. 272 Helped a bit as a freshman, then left
Jeff Demps No. 257 Topped out at 745 yards, but dipped the next two years
Skyler Thornton No. 148 Mostly a bust
Markus Manson No. 214 Nothing after an OK first year
Mack Brown No. 85 A mostly bad back whose best season was not that good
So in terms of top-300 recruits, no one blossomed into a high-end star, though there were a good number of low-end stars or very solid to good backs.
Some of it also has to do with expectations. We expect more from good recruits, or high draft picks, than we should.
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For all intents and purposes, that was the last place he played.
Speaking of 90s QB busts, with the Ryan Leaf news last night, I was reading his bio. Obviously he was bad, but I didn't realize just how horrible his rookie season was, and the full extent of not giving an F he put in. My god, Rodney Harrison said he saw guys who just got paid and then didn't put the work in, but Leaf was the one guy who seemed to actively put the work in to alienate his teammates. Then watched a little bit of his debut game against the Bills. First two plays were a fumbled snap, and a screen pass to absolutely nobody. He was totally overwhelmed, but the worst part is he looked neither overwhelmed, nor like it was going to be ok. He was just like, "well, this is this"
Man had a lot of issues.
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I'm bored and gonna look at it. 247 has top recruits, at least the top 247 of them (Cheeky). Here's the top backs they've gotten, which accounts for a lot of but not all the four/five-stars.
Ciatrick Fason No. 9 nationally Topped out at No. 1,267, so good
Kelvin Taylor No. 21 Topped out at 1,035, never a high end stud, but a low-end one
DeShawn Wynn No. 48 Best year was 699 yards in 14 games, was a starter on a title team
Chris Rainey No. 45 Peaked at 861 yards, but was solid every year
Mike Blakely No. 58 Quit
Willie Green No. 103 Body fell apart
Mon Williams 95 Bust, RIP
Jordan Scarlett No. 117 Ran for 889 and 776 yards around an injury, so fine
Chevon Walker 107 Bust
Bo Williams 132 Left
Mark Thompson No. 5 JUCO Two so-so years as a third stringer
Mike Gillislee No. 144 Ended career as a 1,100 yard back
Dameon Pierce No. 201 Not high usage, but effective in first two years
Nay'Quan Wright No. 261 Hardley played as a freshman
D'Anfernee McGriff No. 257 Didn't make it
Adam Lane No. 272 Helped a bit as a freshman, then left
Jeff Demps No. 257 Topped out at 745 yards, but dipped the next two years
Skyler Thornton No. 148 Mostly a bust
Markus Manson No. 214 Nothing after an OK first year
Mack Brown No. 85 A mostly bad back whose best season was not that good
So in terms of top-300 recruits, no one blossomed into a high-end star, though there were a good number of low-end stars or very solid to good backs.
Some of it also has to do with expectations. We expect more from good recruits, or high draft picks, than we should.
Yeah, I mean I mostly see guys sharing time or lower-rung guys beating out higher guys. I forgot about Mon Williams and Bo Williams. They got shots, just weren't good enough to get on the field much.
This is the worst?
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Yeah, I mean I mostly see guys sharing time or lower-rung guys beating out higher guys. I forgot about Mon Williams and Bo Williams. They got shots, just weren't good enough to get on the field much.
This is the worst?
Hmmm, maybe?
I mean, you got 20 blue chippers and between them three 1,000-yard seasons and a decent number of 700 or 800 with varying levels of effectiveness.
As ELA said, there's probably like 15ish schools that even eligible, maybe more, and that's a pretty small group of "star" running backs. Granted, era would have some impact. Miami hasn't been great since 2005. Michigan not great since 2015.
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Hmm, I'm not like "oh no, Florida can't be the worst!", but with my knowledge of these players and seasons, there weren't any that played much and stunk. They either contributed or didn't play.
Meyer's offense takes carries away from the RB, or at least it did at Florida. Tebow took 200 carries away from the RB right off the top. Then Harvin would take another 60-90 carries away.
Demps and Rainey both averaged about 6.5 ypc for their careers, which is elite.
Even after Meyer, Muschamp had Driskel carrying the ball a lot (his strength) and RBs sharing time. Kelvin Taylor's biggest crime was not being as good as his dad (Fred Taylor).
Deshawn Wynn would've been a 1,200 yard back, if given the carries. Same with Scarlett.
Florida's issue at RB, if there is one, is that they tend to recruit super-productive, squat/short guys. All of the elite recruits who play QB in HS because they're just the best athlete and run around and win games tend to go to WR.
I assume everyone would like one bell-cow RB demanding all the carries, but it just hasn't worked out that way at Florida. It's interesting, though.
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Hmm, I'm not like "oh no, Florida can't be the worst!", but with my knowledge of these players and seasons, there weren't any that played much and stunk. They either contributed or didn't play.
Meyer's offense takes carries away from the RB, or at least it did at Florida. Tebow took 200 carries away from the RB right off the top. Then Harvin would take another 60-90 carries away.
Demps and Rainey both averaged about 6.5 ypc for their careers, which is elite.
Even after Meyer, Muschamp had Driskel carrying the ball a lot (his strength) and RBs sharing time. Kelvin Taylor's biggest crime was not being as good as his dad (Fred Taylor).
Deshawn Wynn would've been a 1,200 yard back, if given the carries. Same with Scarlett.
Florida's issue at RB, if there is one, is that they tend to recruit super-productive, squat/short guys. All of the elite recruits who play QB in HS because they're just the best athlete and run around and win games tend to go to WR.
I assume everyone would like one bell-cow RB demanding all the carries, but it just hasn't worked out that way at Florida. It's interesting, though.
Yeah, it's also very much tied up in what you expect.
Like when they came in, if I told you when each signed, each would have one season where the touched the ball 10 times a game, and the most high-usage season would be 861 yards at 5 yards a carry, how would one take that?
And UF seems to have been that way through Spurrier too to a degree. Fred Taylor was a beast, and he only passed 880 yards once and played a senior season (I guess injuries were a thing?).
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Why a 5* QB is committed to Michigan right now is beyond me.
I have no idea either.
Hopefully McCarthy has the same type of football IQ and toughness and strong will and competitive spirit of Andrew Luck and that he can be great in spite of Jim Harbaugh trying to F it all up. Fingers crossed.
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And UF seems to have been that way through Spurrier too to a degree. Fred Taylor was a beast, and he only passed 880 yards once and played a senior season (I guess injuries were a thing?).
No injuries, Florida just had 2 other good RBs. Taylor showed how great he was his SR year without the other 2 around anymore.
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I have no idea either.
Hopefully McCarthy has the same type of football IQ and toughness and strong will and competitive spirit of Andrew Luck and that he can be great in spite of Jim Harbaugh trying to F it all up. Fingers crossed.
I'm not as hopeful as you
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I'm not as hopeful as you
Yeah my hope is McCarthy sticks with Michigan, redshirts and then Jim goes back to the NFL in 2022 and maybe Gattis takes over.
Jim bolted for the NFL and Stanford only got better under David Shaw. Similar thing could always happen again lol.
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Jim doesn't seem the whisperer he was advertised as.......
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Yeah my hope is McCarthy sticks with Michigan, redshirts and then Jim goes back to the NFL in 2022 and maybe Gattis takes over.
Jim bolted for the NFL and Stanford only got better under David Shaw. Similar thing could always happen again lol.
Michigan hope machine.
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Jim doesn't seem the whisperer he was advertised as.......
Quite the opposite.
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Quite the opposite.
I think ELA said it right way back when. Jim is a QB maximizer. Not a QB whisperer or developer.
Jim can’t develop a QB for shit but he can take a QB and get them to play well. But he doesn’t make them better over time. If that makes sense.
Lincoln Riley, Ryan Day, and Mike Leach are the only guys I would label as QB whisperers. They seem to be able to take anyone and turn them into stars that can put up huge numbers. Jim is nowhere near their level.
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Michigan hope machine.
Jim has served his purpose. He's turned Michigan around from being a laughing stock into a viable program. He's a turnaround artist, not a guy who can sustain a program and build a foundation to build it into something more. He can turn around things quickly, but then he fizzles. He wears everyone out. The players, the other coaches, the administrators, and even the fans. I believe that is what's happening. He's fizzling out.
Lloyd Carr's last 7 seasons at Michigan his winning % was 73%.
The following 7 seasons after he left, with RichRod and Hoke? 52%.
Jim Harbaugh's winning % in his 5 years at Michigan? 72%.
He put the thing back on solid footing, and now it's time to move on.
Jim can't beat Ohio State, he's really sucked in bowl games- losing two bowl games inexplicably that he absolutely should've won in FSU and South Carolina- he can't develop a QB to save his life, and Michigan's recruiting has taken a major dive from where it was after it lost by far it's two best overall recruiters in Chris Partridge and Greg Mattison and by far it's best recruiter in Detroit in Tyrone Wheatley.
I think promoting Gattis or Don Brown to HC and letting Jim leave for the NFL is best for all parties involved.
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Jim has served his purpose. He's turned Michigan around from being a laughing stock into a viable program. He's a turnaround artist, not a guy who can sustain a program and build a foundation to build it into something more. He can turn around things quickly, but then he fizzles. He wears everyone out. The players, the other coaches, the administrators, and even the fans. I believe that is what's happening. He's fizzling out.
Lloyd Carr's last 7 seasons at Michigan his winning % was 73%.
The following 7 seasons after he left, with RichRod and Hoke? 52%.
Jim Harbaugh's winning % in his 5 years at Michigan? 72%.
He put the thing back on solid footing, and now it's time to move on.
Jim can't beat Ohio State, he's really sucked in bowl games- losing two bowl games inexplicably that he absolutely should've won in FSU and South Carolina- he can't develop a QB to save his life, and Michigan's recruiting has taken a major dive from where it was after it lost by far it's two best overall recruiters in Chris Partridge and Greg Mattison and by far it's best recruiter in Detroit in Tyrone Wheatley.
I think promoting Gattis or Don Brown to HC and letting Jim leave for the NFL is best for all parties involved.
I mean, Jim can't beat OSU because OSU has usually been stupid good. There's maybe one year you could argue Michigan should've won. Another where the matchup was just not gonna let it happen.
Anyway, it's that last part that's all Michigan hope machine. Sending off the head man and promoting the assistant ain't gonna be the key to making the jump.
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true, but thinking that Michigan can't be stupid good enough to beat Ohio st as normal is a defeatest attitude
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true, but thinking that Michigan can't be stupid good enough to beat Ohio st as normal is a defeatest attitude
It is.
And if their admin thinks Gattis or Brown is gonna suddenly make Michigan a top-4 team consistently, God bless em. But they probably won't.
And if you keep chasing that top-4, you might just go from 9-11 wins being normal to 6 or fewer wins not being abnormal.
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I mean, Jim can't beat OSU because OSU has usually been stupid good. There's maybe one year you could argue Michigan should've won. Another where the matchup was just not gonna let it happen.
Anyway, it's that last part that's all Michigan hope machine. Sending off the head man and promoting the assistant ain't gonna be the key to making the jump.
Yeah, no. 2015 they were over-matched and you can say the same thing about 2018 and 2019.
But they should've won in 2016, and in 2017 that was a 1 point game going into the 4th QTR and Ohio State was without it's starting QB, and what happened in both those games? Jim Harbaugh and Don Brown's coaching absolutely shit the bed in those two games down the stretch.
WTF is Michigan hope machine? Like wtf are you even talking about? I seriously hate when people make up stupid little phrases to make themselves look smart. Dumbasses in the media do this constantly. So please just stop. Has nothing to do with some hypothetical hope machine. Harbaugh has worn out his welcome. It's that simple. He's getting paid $9 million a year if you include the annuity and other benefits- and he hasn't produced anything for that huge sum of money. All the little antics and all of his weirdo bullshit- the fans are growing tired of it. Shut the f up and win. The guy has gotten everything he's asked for in terms of money for himself and assistants- the Jordan uniforms, all the traveling and taking the entire team to Rome and South Africa and Paris- all of his satellite camps whatever the hell he wants the AD gives him. He effectively hasn't had a boss in his 5 years he's been at Michigan. And what does he have to show for his 5 years? He's got nothing but excuses to show for it. He's a false messiah. And a f$$king weirdo to boot. He's done his job, time to go.
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It is.
And if their admin thinks Gattis or Brown is gonna suddenly make Michigan a top-4 team consistently, God bless em. But they probably won't.
And if you keep chasing that top-4, you might just go from 9-11 wins being normal to 6 or fewer wins not being abnormal.
Who said Brown or Gattis would take them there? What promoting from within would help prevent is a collapse like you saw with Carr leaving. Had Michigan promoted from within and Carr been able to name a successor- Michigan doesn't fall off the map like they did.
To be a top 4 team you need a Nick Saban or Urban Meyer. And those guys don't grow on trees. I don't know what the hell Clemson and Georgia have done to get to that level- because I think Dabo and Kirby aren't anything special as coaches- they just recruit like hell. I really think maybe dollar dollar bills y'all are involved there. Because I can't explain those two guys.
Urban and Saban recruiting like animals- I understand- those are two of the 3 greatest college coaches ever.
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Kicker - Bama
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Kicker - Bama
I could never understand this. Saban gets the best players from everywhere in the country. You'd think he could get a great kicker once in awhile.
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Yeah, no. 2015 they were over-matched and you can say the same thing about 2018 and 2019.
But they should've won in 2016, and in 2017 that was a 1 point game going into the 4th QTR and Ohio State was without it's starting QB, and what happened in both those games? Jim Harbaugh and Don Brown's coaching absolutely shit the bed in those two games down the stretch.
WTF is Michigan hope machine? Like wtf are you even talking about? I seriously hate when people make up stupid little phrases to make themselves look smart. Dumbasses in the media do this constantly. So please just stop. Has nothing to do with some hypothetical hope machine. Harbaugh has worn out his welcome. It's that simple. He's getting paid $9 million a year if you include the annuity and other benefits- and he hasn't produced anything for that huge sum of money. All the little antics and all of his weirdo bullshit- the fans are growing tired of it. Shut the f up and win. The guy has gotten everything he's asked for in terms of money for himself and assistants- the Jordan uniforms, all the traveling and taking the entire team to Rome and South Africa and Paris- all of his satellite camps whatever the hell he wants the AD gives him. He effectively hasn't had a boss in his 5 years he's been at Michigan. And what does he have to show for his 5 years? He's got nothing but excuses to show for it. He's a false messiah. And a f$$king weirdo to boot. He's done his job, time to go.
Michigan was a 12-point underdog on the road that lost when a first-round draft pick came in off the bench in 2017. CRAZY.
And I'll explain the Michigan hope machine.
I've been on this board something like 13-14 years. And not one's optimism burns so bright and then burns out in such a fashion as Michigan's. It hasn't helped that I've seen the Rich Rod era and the Hoke era, but each time I've heard how this guy fits exactly what they want, and then it all goes to shit with how they feel about the coach.
This time, Michigan fans got the guy who led three great turnarounds. Who turned Stanford into a powerful team and led a team to a Super Bowl. He had a resume stupid good enough it seemed kinda crazy he took the damn job at all. And here we are at the same point.
But Josh Gattis or Don Brown is actually gonna be the answer? Nope. Just a different name I'll be hearing the same things about in five years. Shoot, maybe they can pay them less so I can hear about how they won't open the pocket books the new coach like they did for Jim.
It's tough shit. This is Michigan football, mostly bouncing between 9-11 wins with the occasional 8. The best coach in modern program history specialized in losing Rose Bowls and not outright winning the conference with 1-loss teams. And that was before the in-state talent gap became a chasm. For the most part, this is their station. They just got lucky when OSU hired some worse coaches.
I'll stop calling it the hope machine when I stop seeing over the top hope burn out over and over. IF they wanna try to fire their way through, fine, but no need to be surprised when it goes sideways. I'll stop calling it the hope machine when losing a 1-point lead as 12-point road underdog is taken in its proper context. FFS, you literally referred to Jimbo as a "false messiah." When the new shiny football coach is hailed with the same term for the Lord God Himself, I'll be fine saying Michigan produces more hope than it can handle.
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Who said Brown or Gattis would take them there? What promoting from within would help prevent is a collapse like you saw with Carr leaving. Had Michigan promoted from within and Carr been able to name a successor- Michigan doesn't fall off the map like they did.
To be a top 4 team you need a Nick Saban or Urban Meyer. And those guys don't grow on trees. I don't know what the hell Clemson and Georgia have done to get to that level- because I think Dabo and Kirby aren't anything special as coaches- they just recruit like hell. I really think maybe dollar dollar bills y'all are involved there. Because I can't explain those two guys.
Urban and Saban recruiting like animals- I understand- those are two of the 3 greatest college coaches ever.
Kirby controlled recruiting in one of the best states for it better than his predecessors and has had good enough coaching.
Dabo paid the right kids and has had almost every turning point moment swing his team's way. It helped that his admin had enough faith to not fret too much when they suffered a historic streak of losses in their rivalry and when they were banging their heads against the ceiling with FSU.
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The UGA football team should be one of the most talented in the country, there is no reason for it not to be. And, the 247 rankings over the past few years shows they are, aside from some transfers like Fields. Just about anyone should be able to recruit well at UGA. They appear to have some assistants who focus on this who are able to "connect" with players in the state, and elsewhere. Facilities are very good, mostly new. Track record is pretty good.
I think they used up all their "luck" in 1980 and then some.
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The UGA football team should be one of the most talented in the country, there is no reason for it not to be. And, the 247 rankings over the past few years shows they are, aside from some transfers like Fields. Just about anyone should be able to recruit well at UGA. They appear to have some assistants who focus on this who are able to "connect" with players in the state, and elsewhere. Facilities are very good, mostly new. Track record is pretty good.
I think they used up all their "luck" in 1980 and then some.
UGA is a weird spot.
On the one hand, it should be one of the most talented. It's the most one-school multi-school state (I think) and is usually No. 5 in talent (there's some interesting modern background to that). I know it used to also be really good at raiding SC and NC at times too.
But for whatever reason, it's often not come together. Even Dooley's run had some ups and downs outside a shining four-year window. I think Richt is a good man and a relatively good coach, but his top-end production at that job was not what was hoped.
Kirby is interesting because he's coaching at a level above Jim (with a notably better situation), but at some point, folks will get antsy or he'll break through. Might not be for a bit.
(The facilities thing is weird to me because when it's bad, that's a thing. But when it's good, you're kind of just keeping up with the joneses. A lot of the time, it's like "We're paying X amount for this and this and this" and so are the teams you lost to)
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Kicker - Bama
Bowden's worst nightmare, back when FSU was good
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I think facilities among the major programs really only differs in terms of which is newest, as new is, well newer.
You need a break or three even with a very talented team to win the NC, coupled with being relatively injury free. An outstanding QB is often also needed.
The 247 recruiting rankings over the past four years have been 1st, 2nd, 1st, and 3rd. Some 5 stars have departed (Fields and a TE back to Illinois among them). And of course some juniors leave early. With that much talent, a team should be "in the mix", and they have been, one play here and there went the other way, and some of that is coaching at times.
Had they not lost to USCe last year when Fromm threw four INTs, they would have made the playoffs even with the L to LSU. They would not have won.
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I think facilities among the major programs really only differs in terms of which is newest, as new is, well newer.
You need a break or three even with a very talented team to win the NC, coupled with being relatively injury free. An outstanding QB is often also needed.
The 247 recruiting rankings over the past four years have been 1st, 2nd, 1st, and 3rd. Some 5 stars have departed (Fields and a TE back to Illinois among them). And of course some juniors leave early. With that much talent, a team should be "in the mix", and they have been, one play here and there went the other way, and some of that is coaching at times.
Had they not lost to USCe last year when Fromm threw four INTs, they would have made the playoffs even with the L to LSU. They would not have won.
I don't know that I imagined a situation where I though, thank god I had to watch LSU-Oklahoma, but when faced with the prospect of LSU-UGA II, it worked out fine.
A first-round rematch of the SEC title game with that UGA offense woulda been even sadder than what we got. (I'm also dubious a 1-loss conference champ would get left out for a non-1-loss conference champ, but that's a theoretical argument for another day)
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Along those lines, I'm glad we didn't see Okie St play LSU in 2011. It would have been over at halftime, like LSU-OU was this past year. We'll never KNOW, but I find it likely.
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2002 was my favorite recent UGA season - they got Zooked!
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Along those lines, I'm glad we didn't see Okie St play LSU in 2011. It would have been over at halftime, like LSU-OU was this past year. We'll never KNOW, but I find it likely.
I mean, that game was still over at halftime. Just one version would've involved some points, and a probably more interesting outcome.
(That was a weird participation trophy title. Someone got a prize for losing)
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I mean, that game was still over at halftime. Just one version would've involved some points, and a probably more interesting outcome.
(That was a weird participation trophy title. Someone got a prize for losing)
After the fact, it seems like people simply forget how all-time great that LSU team was on track to be.
Here's their games vs ranked teams, aside from the Bama regular season game:
vs #3: win by 13 pts
vs #25: win by 13
vs #16: win by 26
vs #17: win by 30
vs #19: win by 35
vs #3: win by 24
vs #12: win by 32
First of all, that's 7 games. Plus the Bama win. The SOS was above reproach. The special teams were elite in every facet. Great pass D. Great run D. And the offense was much better than we remember it being - scoring 40+ points 9 times! We think it pedestrian because of the NC game vs Bama.
You may be thinking, so what, OAM, LSU wasn't the problem, Alabama getting in ahead of OK State was.
Well if we put LSU in the proper perspective, then what Alabama did is all the more amazing. It took that LSU super team to OT. All of those ranked teams getting pantsed, and Bama was just as good. Sorry, how fun the game is isn't relevant. It was elite, big-boy football, period.
And what did Alabama go on to do? Totally emasculate an all-time type team. Bullied the bully. It's not a slight to say Oklahoma State wouldn't have done well vs LSU that year - no one would have, aside from who did, twice.
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Along those lines, I'm glad we didn't see Okie St play LSU in 2011. It would have been over at halftime, like LSU-OU was this past year. We'll never KNOW, but I find it likely.
Eh, maybe. I still would have rather seen that than the rematch. Shoulda been Ok St.
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So for 2019, would you rather see OSU play Clemson again or watch OSU vs Oklahoma?
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So for 2019, would you rather see OSU play Clemson again or watch OSU vs Oklahoma?
Not sure I’m following.
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After the fact, it seems like people simply forget how all-time great that LSU team was on track to be.
Here's their games vs ranked teams, aside from the Bama regular season game:
vs #3: win by 13 pts
vs #25: win by 13
vs #16: win by 26
vs #17: win by 30
vs #19: win by 35
vs #3: win by 24
vs #12: win by 32
First of all, that's 7 games. Plus the Bama win. The SOS was above reproach. The special teams were elite in every facet. Great pass D. Great run D. And the offense was much better than we remember it being - scoring 40+ points 9 times! We think it pedestrian because of the NC game vs Bama.
You may be thinking, so what, OAM, LSU wasn't the problem, Alabama getting in ahead of OK State was.
Well if we put LSU in the proper perspective, then what Alabama did is all the more amazing. It took that LSU super team to OT. All of those ranked teams getting pantsed, and Bama was just as good. Sorry, how fun the game is isn't relevant. It was elite, big-boy football, period.
And what did Alabama go on to do? Totally emasculate an all-time type team. Bullied the bully. It's not a slight to say Oklahoma State wouldn't have done well vs LSU that year - no one would have, aside from who did, twice.
I never questioned LSU in that spot. They deserved to be there full, full stop. I wouldn't call them a super team because that offense was quite good, but not really super. But they were as accomplished a team as one could construct.
I'd argue against Bama because until they got the the rematch, the best thing you could say was they lost well. They had the same record as OK State against a somewhat worse schedule. They had fewer big wins. The best things about Bama were two things: 1. They had a very majestic eye test, pulling the Boise move, where they hammered the teams on their worse schedule 2. They were very, very close to being at the top of those ranking when you just stack up the losses and were that close against a very good team. They never very good and their biggest accomplishment was losing close.
I thought Ok State was more accomplished but couldn't stand up to the feeling Bama was the best team. And they ended up being, even if I thought logically it didn't flow as smoothly as I'd like.
Such is life. It brought us multiple sometimes funny Oklahoma playoff appearances, which Oklahoma State might have not brought around so fast.
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LSU and Bama were 1-1 against each other that year. Somehow Bama ended up as champs because "settle it on the field." IMO, it was already settled in the first game. LSU had to win twice to be champs. Bama only had to win once.
I don't like rematches, even when it helps my team when there is one, like vs. Texas in 2018.
Oklahoma State should have been in that championship game. And, yes, they probably wouldn't have beaten LSU, but Bama had already had its chance and had lost.
20-20 hindsight is not always a good judge as to whether a decision was right or not at the time it was made.
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LSU and Bama were 1-1 against each other that year. Somehow Bama ended up as champs because "settle it on the field." IMO, it was already settled in the first game. LSU had to win twice to be champs. Bama only had to win once.
I don't like rematches, even when it helps my team when there is one, like vs. Texas in 2018.
You must LOVE the Big 12 now, then, lol.
Oklahoma State should have been in that championship game. And, yes, they probably wouldn't have beaten LSU, but Bama had already had its chance and had lost.
20-20 hindsight is not always a good judge as to whether a decision was right or not at the time it was made.
If it had been 20 years earlier, Alabama wouldn't have lost to LSU in the regular season. They would have tied. And we'd still have had a rematch.
Many people seeing them play to a 6-6 tie, with Bama losing in OT, 9-6, was probably a reason to WANT a rematch.
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If it had been 20 years earlier, Alabama wouldn't have lost to LSU in the regular season. They would have tied. And we'd still have had a rematch.
Many people seeing them play to a 6-6 tie, with Bama losing in OT, 9-6, was probably a reason to WANT a rematch.
But it was not 20 years earlier. It was 2011. And they had a manner to leave that game with a winner and a loser.
Obviously there are rematches often, but usually there's a lot more stomach for them when they happen by way of rule rather than subjective selection.
I would't argue for anything drastic looking back. Bama got the prize of the mulligan for winning the beauty pageant. They made good on that mulligan, but they still got the a certain kind of treatment, simple as that.
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Would OKST be the pick if it were objective?
I just can't vouch for a team 107th in total defense. I think the Cowboys avoided a very public ass-beating.
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Would OKST be the pick if it were objective?
I just can't vouch for a team 107th in total defense. I think the Cowboys avoided a very public ass-beating.
I thought Bama was better but I thought Ok St was more deserving.
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I get it.
But I couldn't damn Bama for losing to LSU and not damn OKST for losing to Iowa St. I honestly wish OKST had just won that game, to make things easy.
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Would OKST be the pick if it were objective?
I just can't vouch for a team 107th in total defense. I think the Cowboys avoided a very public ass-beating.
I don't use total defense for anything. It's too pace-specific. I could point out they were top-20 in points allowed per drive. They weren't good in yards per play, though they were about average.
And I'm sure it would did save them an ass-beating, though what happened gave LSU one.
Anyway, there's no exact "objective" to all of it. It depends how things are weighted and considered. I can argue I think having better top end wins and the same record against a better schedule should carry the day. Someone, maybe you, can counter, that style and murdering a lighter schedule, making the case a team is of higher quality but less accomplished, should carry it. (The computers favored OK State after the regular season, but they'd been neutered when it came to MOV/numerical style points)
My main to arguments are this
-I don't think almost any other program would win a tiebreaker with the wins profile they had (the second-best team they beat threw 10 TDs all year, the third-best by record was outscored by 3.2 points a game and outgained by 70). I just don't. We'd be hearing about the low-quality schedule.
-And I think that if Ok State was let in and got housed, all but the most ardent Bama fans would have shrugged it off. They'd lament the missed chance, but in the end they lacked both hardware or resume and lost when they had their opportunity. They'd be like 2008 USC, a team that was hell on wheels but kind of forgotten by history. Bama had a monstrous defense, great tailback, explosive and underused backup tailback and a forgettable passing game. If they get passed over, the end up just one of those teams.
(Of note, Heisman narrative prevented 2008 from being the year that pushed us to a playoff. We had four 1-loss P5 champs, two undefeated G5 teams, two Big 12 teams that lost an unsatisfying tiebreaker and no one was too mad because between CCGs and Bradford vs Tebow)
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One could point out that the 2008 OU team's performance vs Florida hindered Oklahoma State's chances in '11. Elite defenses tend to let the air out of elite offenses - and while very good, that Gators defense wasn't elite like '11 Bama's was.
Same with '09 Texas vs Bama. McCoy didn't play, but it still happened.
Big-time Big 12 offense gets paired with a big-boy SEC team, and what happens? It's not fair, but it may have influenced some people out there.
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One could point out that the 2008 OU team's performance vs Florida hindered Oklahoma State's chances in '11. Elite defenses tend to let the air out of elite offenses - and while very good, that Gators defense wasn't elite like '11 Bama's was.
Same with '09 Texas vs Bama. McCoy didn't play, but it still happened.
Big-time Big 12 offense gets paired with a big-boy SEC team, and what happens? It's not fair, but it may have influenced some people out there.
Perhaps that happened, and if it did, it would be kind of silly. Especially in terms of 2009. Bama smushed a backup QB, and weirdly couldn't even put Texas away despite that (Texas made it a 3-point game with like 6 minutes to go).
The No. 68 team in total defense held that UF team to its worst point total of the season. Two years later, Oregon's defense held Auburn to just over half its average scoring output. These high-pace offensive teams with their maligned defenses somehow managed to hold good SEC offenses to worse numbers than the SEC did. But this is treated as relatively meaningless.
Because in the end, patterns from three games should be treated as relatively meaningless.
Again, the "I can trace a pattern off a few high-profile outcomes from previous years" is a great way to fill time on ESPN, but a relatively lousy way to articulate why a team is worthwhile or not. The rematch game was a quirky narrative thing that became real. It is what it is. I'm just saying, if most 11-1 team's second-best wins was against a 9-4 team that was 104th in scoring offense and the third-best win (by record) was an 8-5 team that got outscored by 69 in 12 FBS games, it would have trouble getting a pass.
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I'm 100% certain voters find any number of horrible ways to rank teams.
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I'm 100% certain voters find any number of horrible ways to rank teams.
Yep.
I'm still amazed how engrained what I call "poll logic" is in many folks.
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I think LSU would have beaten Ok St but I don’t know if it would have been a beatdown. WVU played LSU in Morgantown that year and beat them 47-21. But WVU moved the ball on them. They had 533 total yards and 28 first downs. Their undoing was 4 turnovers and terrible field position all night. LSU’s punter pinned them inside the 10 yard line 6 times I believe. It was honestly the best game I think I’ve ever seen a punter have.
But WVU and Ok St ran the exact same offense. Ok St just ran it better. Again, this isn’t to make the case that Ok St necessarily wins (but who knows) but I’m not sure it’s a blood bath either.
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I could never understand this. Saban gets the best players from everywhere in the country. You'd think he could get a great kicker once in awhile.
thing is, he does. going back to 2009, when he's recruited a kicker (which is the year before the current one if a sr, so we always have 2 scholarship kickers) they've all been 3*, which for a kicker is elite. problem is they haven't panned out. to me, that's more to do with coaching. getting 1-2 that doesn't work out, fine, it happens. but 6-8? and none of them live up to expectations? something else is wrong.
2009 no kickers
2010 we got 2 3*s, 1 was #1 ranked kicker, other 22nd.
2011, no kickers.
2012, 1-3*, ranked #1.
2013, no kicker
2014, no kicker but got punter jk scott who also kicked. was a 3* and #2 ranked. he made his name punting and for good reason, but he was actually ok at kicking too. not great, but not our worst either. arguably our best during this run.
2015, no kicker
2016, no kicker
2017, 3*, #6 ranked
2018, no kicker
2019, 3*, #1 (note, this kid got hurt early season and was out all year, but he was looking good actually. so hopefully we've passed that curse. guess we'll fine out)
this doesn't include a couple/few transfers that were supposedly good. they didn't pan out either. but it's not for lack of recruiting highly rated kickers.
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The UGA football team should be one of the most talented in the country, there is no reason for it not to be. And, the 247 rankings over the past few years shows they are, aside from some transfers like Fields. Just about anyone should be able to recruit well at UGA. They appear to have some assistants who focus on this who are able to "connect" with players in the state, and elsewhere. Facilities are very good, mostly new. Track record is pretty good.
I think they used up all their "luck" in 1980 and then some.
Sure, they should absolutely clean up at home in Georgia, a state that produces more talent than any state not named Texas, California, or Florida. They should also be able to nab recruits in close by South Carolina & North Carolina- although the rise of Clemson has hurt a little bit there. They are also close to Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana which they should be able to lean into to take talented players every now and then.
What I was referring to is how they seem to pull top kids from all over the country from states like Texas, Washington, California, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, etc., etc.. They aren't a national powerhouse at the moment like Alabama, Clemson, or Ohio State- and they aren't a foundational nation wide blue-blood brand like Notre Dame or Michigan or Oklahoma.
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Gauging a kicker from HS seems impossible. Sure, you have accuracy and distance on his kicks. But you also have him kicking in front of 500 people to 80,000. F- that noise. No way of telling how he'll handle it.
Alabama kickers have probably sucked because they're scared of Saban.
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Athens is a really nice town for college kids. The weather is pretty decent (summers are hot of course). UGA has been in the mix the last few years, and often credible under Richt. UGA has a good record of getting juniors into the pros a year early. It should be on the longer list of any five star perhaps excepting QB, though they have recruited 5 star QBs of late as well. If it matters, it's decent academically, without being anywhere near elite of course.
If they get someone from outside the south on campus, they often have a shot. They should be solid this season, if we have one, I suspect, probably better than last year.
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Athens is a really nice town for college kids. The weather is pretty decent (summers are hot of course). UGA has been in the mix the last few years, and often credible under Richt. UGA has a good record of getting juniors into the pros a year early. It should be on the longer list of any five star perhaps excepting QB, though they have recruited 5 star QBs of late as well. If it matters, it's decent academically, without being anywhere near elite of course.
If they get someone from outside the south on campus, they often have a shot. They should be solid this season, if we have one, I suspect, probably better than last year.
Kirby should've dumped Fromm for Fields.
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Kirby should've dumped Fromm for Fields.
Fromm's backslide was something to behold.
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Fromm's backslide was something to behold.
He kind of reminds me of a way less physically talented Chad Henne. Not sure it was so much a backslide as it was the guy just never really got any better. Henne had an awesome true frosh season and you thought- oh man the sky is the limit. Except it wasn't. He just sort of stayed the same and never took a major leap forward.
Same thing with Fromm. He had a great season for a true frosh QB but he never really got any better. Incrementally better, sure, but he never took a massive leap forward. Which is what most expect from a true frosh who has such an impressive rookie season.
And I don't know why he decided to leave early, that was a big mistake. He didn't have the physical talent to leave early and still get picked in the 1st or 2nd rd.
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The WRs were not getting any separation if they didn't have Cager or Pickens out there. Fromm did "OK" if Cager was on the field. I don't know if there were play calling issues I'd criticize, but they didn't seem to like screen plays where Fromm would probably have been good. I agree he should not have left early particularly with so many top QBs in the draft.
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He kind of reminds me of a way less physically talented Chad Henne. Not sure it was so much a backslide as it was the guy just never really got any better. Henne had an awesome true frosh season and you thought- oh man the sky is the limit. Except it wasn't. He just sort of stayed the same and never took a major leap forward.
Same thing with Fromm. He had a great season for a true frosh QB but he never really got any better. Incrementally better, sure, but he never took a massive leap forward. Which is what most expect from a true frosh who has such an impressive rookie season.
And I don't know why he decided to leave early, that was a big mistake. He didn't have the physical talent to leave early and still get picked in the 1st or 2nd rd.
His passer rating dropped 30 points. His YPA dropped by 1.6. His completion percentage fell nearly 7 percent. The offense fell 30 spots in SP+.
I know he lost a lot of WR talent and they intentionally downgraded their OC, but I think he also just didn't play well.
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Same thing happened to the Utah State kid, but he has arm talent.
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Fromm's performance when they had Cager on the field was decent. Not great, but decent. I gather he signed for a nice chunk of change, but he would have done better next year, probably. The OL was strangely not really very good. I still don't understand that.
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Same thing happened to the Utah State kid, but he has arm talent.
I still can't believe the Packers traded up in the 1st rd to get him.
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The Dawg offense at the latter portion of the season last year was a mystery to me, They supposedly had an all world OL and near that QB and RB. They were thin at WR, and has injuries and suspensions that were damaging. But, they should have been able to roll over teams like USCe and UK (even in a rain storm) with relative ease. One thing I saw was a drive starting off well usually running the ball and then they'd pass on 2nd 3 and have an miss and then get 2 yards on 3rd down and punt.
I think defenses just didn't worry much about covering the WRs because they wouldn't get separation often other than Cager. But the play calling was odd, to me, and the overall impact was bad, they were not in my view a top four team overall, just on defense, which got sorely tested.
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That UGA-UK game hurt my brain.
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That was ugly for sure, and puzzling to me. And I thought they were headed for a loss for over half the game.
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Same thing happened to the Utah State kid, but he has arm talent.
Jordan Love somehow got worse, yet still got overdrafted, and got his QB coach a P5 job after one year?
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Jordan Love somehow got worse, yet still got overdrafted, and got his QB coach a P5 job after one year?
Who?
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I still can't believe the Packers traded up in the 1st rd to get him.
I don't believe it either, but I LOVE it
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We could have a thread something like "Schools where players go only to transfer out later ...".
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start it up!
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FL QBs from 2009-2017. Transfer City.
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We could have a thread something like "Schools where players go only to transfer out later ...".
We do. It's called the transfer portal thread. Everybody transfers now. Every school is the school to go to transfer out.
Transferring is the new coolest thing to do in college football. I mean I get it, I'm all for it but as a fan it just makes me think of all the kids that almost transferred at Michigan but stayed to go on to be great. Desmond Howard came *this* close to transferring. Charles Woodson was packing up and getting ready to transfer to the University of Miami. Tom Brady was basically already transferred to Cal until his father told him no. If Brady transfers to Cal would he ever have that Grand Canyon sized chip on his shoulder and push himself to go on to become the greatest QB ever? I doubt it. He even says this himself.
If this transfer portal thing was around back then and the NCAA was passing out waivers to play right away like free candy, Michigan probably would've sucked back in the day. So many players almost transfer but then back out and go on to prove themselves to their team/coaches and have great careers. That's all going out the window now. Everybody wants to transfer to a starting job right away seems like.