CFB51 College Football Fan Community
The Power Four => Big Ten => Topic started by: OrangeAfroMan on March 15, 2026, 02:11:06 AM
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4 and only 4....your Mt Rushmore of college football HCs.
Probably just rank them by Super Bowl wins, right?
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Bill Snyder
Barry Alvarez
Frank Beamer
Hayden Fry
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I think most today would include Saban first and then it would get more murky. How can one judge coaches "back in the day", Heisman, Bryant, Vaught, compared with those today? I don't know, so I don't have a list.
I just muse about which coaches I think did a lot with a little, and a lot with a lot.
I do like Bill Snyder on any list.
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Bobby Bowden also brought a program up from very little
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Bobby Bowden also brought a program up from very little
Cheating helps.
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agreed, verified cheaters not allowed
sorry Sooners
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Feel like the modern ones are Saban and Meyer. It's not just about winning NCs, but it's about the fact that both were successful coaches pretty much anywhere they went. Even Saban who didn't have a completely illustrious time record-wise at MSU, he was digging a team out of a big hole so he proved he could do a rebuild. (And hell, 'Bama was practically a rebuild when he took it over.) Meyer simply won wherever he went.
And neither of them did anything in the NFL, so it'll make OAM happy :57:
I think they dominate the recent era so completely that you have to look to some previous era coaches to fill out the monument. Given that I didn't really follow CFB until '97, I'm going to recuse myself from the discussion beyond that.
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I think about Spurrier and Meyer who both won at, um, lesser schools, and then again at elite programs.
Bryant won at Kentucky.
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agreed, verified cheaters not allowed
sorry Sooners
Sorry Harbaugh :57:
(Not that I think he quite compares to the moderns like Saban or Meyer--but he has a track record of winning anywhere he goes, from mid-majors to doormat P4 teams to helmets.)
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I think about Spurrier and Meyer who both won at, um, lesser schools, and then again at elite programs.
Bryant won at Kentucky.
I think about Spurrier and Meyer who both won in, um, the SEC.
known cheaters
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Feel like the modern ones are Saban and Meyer. It's not just about winning NCs, but it's about the fact that both were successful coaches pretty much anywhere they went. Even Saban who didn't have a completely illustrious time record-wise at MSU, he was digging a team out of a big hole so he proved he could do a rebuild. (And hell, 'Bama was practically a rebuild when he took it over.) Meyer simply won wherever he went.
And neither of them did anything in the NFL, so it'll make OAM happy :57:
I think they dominate the recent era so completely that you have to look to some previous era coaches to fill out the monument. Given that I didn't really follow CFB until '97, I'm going to recuse myself from the discussion beyond that.
not sure if he's EVER happy
but, he wouldn't be quite so grumpy!
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Tress is on my Mount Rushmore
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No.
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I think about Spurrier and Meyer who both won in, um, the SEC.
known cheaters
I am no Urban fan, and he definitely has his sleazy moments. But he has never been credibly accused of cheating.
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No.
Could do worse than five national championships
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I am no Urban fan, and he definitely has his sleazy moments. But he has never been credibly accused of cheating.
not even at Florida?
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Urban won at BGSU and then Utah. Spurrier won at Duke FCOL. Bryant won at UK. That indicates good coaching, to me. It would be akin to some coach taking over at say "Indiana" or some such and winning the NC (I know, I use a ridiculous semile).
That is a strange term. It's like something something, metaphorically speaking.
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not even at Florida?
31 players went to the slammer in his 6 yrs there. But Fla. recruits weren't shooting to make the Dean's list,just the team. Or just shooting :017:
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not even at Florida?
Nope
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Wilkinson, Oklahoma
Bowden, Florida St
Bryant, Alabama
Saban, Alabama, LSU
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Wilkinson, Oklahoma
OU football was placed on major NCAA probation twice in a five-year span (1955 and 1960) during Wilkinson's tenure for illegally paying players out of a $125,000 slush fund for a decade and a half
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Wilkinson, Oklahoma
Bowden, Florida St
Bryant, Alabama
Saban, Alabama, LSU
Replace Wilkinson with Bill Snyder, and I can roll with that.
Arguables: Urban, JoePa, Tom Osborne, Frank Beamer, Hayden Fry, Barry Alvarez. Kirby Smart is climbing the list fast.
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Dabo?
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nope
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Saban
Bryant
Rockne
...
#4 is the only tough one for me: Bowden, Hayes, McCay, Osborne, Leahy, Meyer, Wilkinson, Switzer (on this list there's a little if you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'), Pop Warner, Darrell Royal, JoPa (but I can't forgive the scandal)...
Leaning into the MNCs, Woody Hayes it is.
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Dabo?
He, like a lot of great coaches, are hitting the wall in the new era. Will be interesting to see if he rights the ship. Saban, arguably the greatest ever, suddenly quit over the changes, as did our coach this last year.
If Cignetti continues what he has done for a few more years, he would be on the rock. It's really unbelievable--woulda never thunk it 5 years ago.
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hell, Cignetti could be on my top 4 today
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He, like a lot of great coaches, are hitting the wall in the new era. Will be interesting to see if he rights the ship. Saban, arguably the greatest ever, suddenly quit over the changes, as did our coach this last year.
If Cignetti continues what he has done for a few more years, he would be on the rock. It's really unbelievable--woulda never thunk it 5 years ago.
I agree with all of that. We need to save space for Cig if he keeps this up.
My list was more about coaches who brought programs up from the dead.
Hayden Fry did it himself and he spawned a few others who did it too. We know who they are.
OU was a mess before Stoops showed up. Yeah, it's Oklahoma, but still.
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hell, Cignetti could be on my top 4 today
Google him.
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I dunno... I want to see Cignetti do it at another school first.
As soon as possible.
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I dunno... I want to see Cignetti do it at another school first.
In Indiana - As soon as possible.
FIFY
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As long as you don't mean ND.
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send him to the SEC SEC SEC
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a mess at Oklahoma is WAY different than a mess at Iowa, or Wisconsin, or K-State, or Indiana
and how they got into that mess is different as well
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Imagine a scenario where two head coaches had done really well in college football. Let's say Coach A won 3 NCs and a slew of other things, and Coach B had won 3 NCs and a comparable slew of other things. Both had success at three different programs.
Pretty close, but imagine Coach B also won a Super Bowl and his team played in another. Should that matter if we're judging coaching proficiency?
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Jimmy cheated at Miami and got a whole team in Dallas from a trade with some dumbass in Minnie.
He didn't do as well as the Dolphins' coach, or at Okie State.
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but, his hair was perfect
cocaine with the Caines and the cowboy crackwagon
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Paul Brown
Woody Hayes
Jim Tressel
Urban Meyer
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Thought for sure you'd have Bo from Miami (OH no).
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Thought for sure you'd have Bo from Miami (OH no).
I would have if he did anything worthwhile after leaving Miami
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Paul Brown
IMHO, Paul Brown is the greatest Football Coach ever.
That said, I don't think he belongs on a "Mount Rushmore of COLLEGE Football Head Coaches" because even if you include his two seasons as the HC at Great Lakes Navy during WWII he still only coached five total seasons of CFB. If you don't count those it is only the three at Ohio State.
He gets too little credit, IMHO from Ohio State fans because he was overshadowed by Woody but one of the things that some other people have discussed in this thread is elevating a program and when Woody won NC's at Ohio State it had been done before. When Paul Brown did it, he was the first.
Paul Brown's record:
HS:
- He coached the Severn School Prep Admirals in Maryland for two years and won one State title.
- He coached the Massillon Washington Tigers for nine years, won five State titles and four "national titles" (note, HS national titles are even more 'mythical' than college ones but still this is impressive).
- Overall he coached 11 seasons of HS football and won six state titles.
College/wartime military:
- He coached the Ohio State Buckeyes for three seasons and won Ohio State's first NC in 1942. The team fell off in 1943 but that was Tojo's and Hitler's fault not Paul Brown's. All of Ohio State's players left to go fight the war.
- He coached Great Lakes Navy for two seasons finishing #17 in the College AP Poll in one of them.
Pro:
- He coached the Cleveland Browns in the AAFC for four seasons and won the AAFC Title all four years.
- He coached the Cleveland Browns in the NFL for 13 seasons and won 4 NFL titles and eight conference titles.
- He coached the Cincinnati Bengals in the AFL for two seasons and didn't do much.
- He coached the Cincinnati Bengals in the NFL for six seasons and won two divisional titles.
Brown was only 33 when Ohio State made him their HC straight from the Massillon HS job. He was so young that he was actually drafted in WWII because he was still draft age. Not only did he win Ohio State's first NC, he was the first Ohio State HC to get the Buckeyes to #1 in any AP Poll.
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The OP title says head coaches. It could be soccer.
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Imagine a scenario where two head coaches had done really well in college football. Let's say Coach A won 3 NCs and a slew of other things, and Coach B had won 3 NCs and a comparable slew of other things. Both had success at three different programs.
Pretty close, but imagine Coach B also won a Super Bowl and his team played in another. Should that matter if we're judging coaching proficiency?
You're a jackass.
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Saban, obviously. You just can’t leave him out.
Spurrier should be up there, and Bowden too.
I’d say Paterno, just for longevity.
Last, that’s a tough one. I’d go with Bob Stoops.
Honorable mention. Bill Snyder, Mack Brown, Darrel Royal, Bo, Woody.
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You listed 5....
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(https://i.imgur.com/3Hqpw4O.jpeg)
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You listed 5....
My bad.
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Name calling often results from an inability to discuss another’s ideas.
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Name calling often results from an inability to discuss another’s ideas.
Why would anyone want to discuss your ideas?!?
Post: Name your favorite type of apple.
@Cincydawg (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=870): Banana!
I am identifying you and your behavior very precisely, not calling you names.
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Why would anyone want to discuss your ideas?!?
Post: Name your favorite type of apple.
@Cincydawg (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=870): Banana!
I am identifying you and your behavior very precisely, not calling you names.
Don't forget the follow up:
"I'm just trying to figure out why people hate bananas so much."
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IMHO, Paul Brown is the greatest Football Coach ever.
That said, I don't think he belongs on a "Mount Rushmore of COLLEGE Football Head Coaches" because even if you include his two seasons as the HC at Great Lakes Navy during WWII he still only coached five total seasons of CFB. If you don't count those it is only the three at Ohio State.
He gets too little credit, IMHO from Ohio State fans because he was overshadowed by Woody but one of the things that some other people have discussed in this thread is elevating a program and when Woody won NC's at Ohio State it had been done before. When Paul Brown did it, he was the first.
Paul Brown's record:
HS:
- He coached the Severn School Prep Admirals in Maryland for two years and won one State title.
- He coached the Massillon Washington Tigers for nine years, won five State titles and four "national titles" (note, HS national titles are even more 'mythical' than college ones but still this is impressive).
- Overall he coached 11 seasons of HS football and won six state titles.
College/wartime military:
- He coached the Ohio State Buckeyes for three seasons and won Ohio State's first NC in 1942. The team fell off in 1943 but that was Tojo's and Hitler's fault not Paul Brown's. All of Ohio State's players left to go fight the war.
- He coached Great Lakes Navy for two seasons finishing #17 in the College AP Poll in one of them.
Pro:
- He coached the Cleveland Browns in the AAFC for four seasons and won the AAFC Title all four years.
- He coached the Cleveland Browns in the NFL for 13 seasons and won 4 NFL titles and eight conference titles.
- He coached the Cincinnati Bengals in the AFL for two seasons and didn't do much.
- He coached the Cincinnati Bengals in the NFL for six seasons and won two divisional titles.
Brown was only 33 when Ohio State made him their HC straight from the Massillon HS job. He was so young that he was actually drafted in WWII because he was still draft age. Not only did he win Ohio State's first NC, he was the first Ohio State HC to get the Buckeyes to #1 in any AP Poll.
So you are moving Ryan Day ahead of Paul Brown?
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Post: Name your favorite type of apple.
@Cincydawg (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=870): Banana!
If that were a good analogy, I'd agree, that would be annoying.
But it's not.
It's more like:
Post: Name your favorite type of apple.
Cincydawg: If the apples are equal in apple-y attributes, is it warranted to bring in another category which applies to, but is not limited to, apples? Thereby not strictly being an apple attribute?
This is still probably not warranted, since the original question was asking to weigh apple attributes. You would just have a tie, and not worry about tie-breakers coming from non-apple categories. It would be nonsensical, for example, to tie-break them based on which one makes a better paperweight, because it's an irrelevant category. In your actual question, in the real world, it's unlikely two coaches are perfectly tied in multiple college coaching categories, so you'd just pick one based on the criteria you select.
While his question goes down the wrong path, erroneous reasoning seems like a more forgiveable error than mere "jackassery."
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College/wartime military:
- He coached the Ohio State Buckeyes for three seasons and won Ohio State's first NC in 1942. The team fell off in 1943 but that was Tojo's and Hitler's fault not Paul Brown's. All of Ohio State's players left to go fight the war.
- He coached Great Lakes Navy for two seasons finishing #17 in the College AP Poll in one of them.
Pre-Brown, but Great Lakes Navy went 10-2 in 1943, beating #1 Notre Dame in the season finale.
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Nick Saban
Bobby Bowden
Tom Osborne
Bear Bryant
(https://i.imgur.com/dt0MC90.jpeg)
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(https://i.imgur.com/ePAfhkn.png)
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Bo does not belong on that list. Sorry not sorry.
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I agree. Wholeheartedly
I would also knock Switzer for cheating
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Nick Saban
Bobby Bowden
Tom Osborne
Bear Bryant
(https://i.imgur.com/dt0MC90.jpeg)
2 of the 4 didn't win as many NCs as Woody
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2 of the 4 didn't win as many NCs as Woody
K
Maybe more than 1 criterion is a good idea.
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yes it is well in most cases
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(https://i.imgur.com/ePAfhkn.png)
I guess this demonstrates popular perception and how/where coaches are remembered. Why is Urban listed with UF and OSU, but not Utah? And why is he the only one listed with multiple schools? Nick Saban could be listed with MSU and LSU, Bear Bryant with Kentucky and A&M, etc. Would it change the list any? Don't know, but it definitely feels like a cherry-pick. I wouldn't have thought twice about it if Urbz hadn't been the only one identified with multiple schools.
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2 of the 4 didn't win as many NCs as Woody
He'll be on the Decking players monument with Al McGuire and Bobby Knight.
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Tom Osborne and Urban on the Mount Rushmore of playing murderers
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future murderers
John McKay is on that list
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future murderers
John McKay is on that list
Just need a 4th
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Just need a 4th
Rick Neuheisel
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I guess this demonstrates popular perception and how/where coaches are remembered. Why is Urban listed with UF and OSU, but not Utah? And why is he the only one listed with multiple schools? Nick Saban could be listed with MSU and LSU, Bear Bryant with Kentucky and A&M, etc. Would it change the list any? Don't know, but it definitely feels like a cherry-pick. I wouldn't have thought twice about it if Urbz hadn't been the only one identified with multiple schools.
Saban wasn't great at MSU. Solid, but not great. He gave up on MSU because the other big State school was the darling.
Urban was also great at Bowling Green.
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Saban wasn't great at MSU. Solid, but not great. He gave up on MSU because the other big State school was the darling.
Urban was also great at Bowling Green.
He did quite well at LSU though, and it's one of his NC's. But my larger point is consistency. You're either looking at a whole career for everyone or you're looking at just the "best" stops for everyone. Yet that list clearly cherry-picks two places for Urban and leaves off everybody else's less fantastic tenures.
Which is doubly bizarre considering Saban had a 75% win% and a NC at LSU, and Urbz was great at two other schools, as you mentioned. But he didn't win NC's there, so it's left out. But if you include multiple stops for him, then the other coach's other jobs should be included as well.
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Just need a 4th
Whoever played Craig James at SMU.
He did K5H, after all.
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I hate that asshole.
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He'll be on the Decking players monument with Al McGuire and Bobby Knight.
Hey you want to make an omlets ya gotta break a few eggs ~???.
Classic case of leading a pretty decent life - serving your country in WWII and getting remembered for one assinine moment. The game had passed him by and most, myself included wanted him to hang them up
P.S. - BTW ya left out Frank Kush
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He did quite well at LSU though, and it's one of his NC's. But my larger point is consistency. You're either looking at a whole career for everyone or you're looking at just the "best" stops for everyone. Yet that list clearly cherry-picks two places for Urban and leaves off everybody else's less fantastic tenures.
Which is doubly bizarre considering Saban had a 75% win% and a NC at LSU, and Urbz was great at two other schools, as you mentioned. But he didn't win NC's there, so it's left out. But if you include multiple stops for him, then the other coach's other jobs should be included as well.
It's just a shit clickbait online list. You're readying way too much into it. Hell, it's probably inconsistent just to cause a reaction like yours.
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I guess this demonstrates popular perception and how/where coaches are remembered. Why is Urban listed with UF and OSU, but not Utah? And why is he the only one listed with multiple schools? Nick Saban could be listed with MSU and LSU, Bear Bryant with Kentucky and A&M, etc. Would it change the list any? Don't know, but it definitely feels like a cherry-pick. I wouldn't have thought twice about it if Urbz hadn't been the only one identified with multiple schools.
Setting aside this being a sort of dumb list, I’d assume you don’t want too many teams listed on the bottom.
If you limit it to main schools/titles, we just make sense to add LSU to Nick and call it a day.
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It's just a shit clickbait online list. You're readying way too much into it. Hell, it's probably inconsistent just to cause a reaction like yours.
Sorry, guess I thought I was in the Rankings thread where blasting dumb clickbait lists is the point.
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I think it's fair and appropriate to blast dumb clickbait lists any place you find them.
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especially if you clicked on them
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2 of the 4 didn't win as many NCs as Woody
Both Bo and Woody are interesting.
Woody:
If he had retired after the 1968 season/National Championship I think that he would be on every national "Mt. Rushmore" list. In his first 18 years at Ohio State he had three generally agreed NC's (1954, 1957, 1968) and won league titles in those years plus 1955 as well. A pace of one NC every six years is up there with the all-time greats (not as high as Saban but who is?).
After the 1968 season he coached 10 more years at Ohio State (the 10 year war against Bo) and did MUCH better within the league (8 titles won or shared) but MUCH worse nationally. Woody ended up 4-4 in Rose Bowls which is about what you'd expect but he started 3-0 (the NC's in 1954, 1957, and 1968) but then went 1-4 during the 10 year war. So in 28 years he finished with:
- 13 league titles, almost 1 every other year
- 4-4 in 8 Rose Bowls
- 3 NCs (there are claims to as many as 5), roughly 1 every 10 years)
Bo:
Long ago in one of these threads @ELA (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=55) commented that Bo is easily on any Big Ten Mt. Rushmore based on accomplishments within the league but has much less respect nationally because he never won an NC and had a dreadful RB record. In Bo's defense, he started later so his RB appearances were all after Woody's early success. Bo didn't coach in the league as long as Woody did, just 21 years from 1969-1989 and he won the same number of league titles as Woody which obviously is a better rate 13 in 21 years vs 13 in 28 years but he had a dreadful bowl record (especially the Rose Bowl) and never won an NC. Bo started 0-5 in Rose Bowls losing his five during the 10 year war while Woody went 1-4 thus for a combined 1-9 Big Ten record from 1969-1978 (seasons, 1970-1979 Rose Bowls). After that he was a little better going 2-3 in his last five Rose Bowls (wins in 1980 and 1988 seasons, losses in 1982, 1986, and 1989). So in his 21 years he finished with:
- 13 league titles, almost 2 every 3 years
- 2-8 in 10 Rose Bowls
- 0 NCs
The contrast between the incredible local success and the not-so-great national record is striking for Woody but especially for Bo because he was more successful within the league but less successful outside of it.
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I guess this demonstrates popular perception and how/where coaches are remembered. Why is Urban listed with UF and OSU, but not Utah? And why is he the only one listed with multiple schools? Nick Saban could be listed with MSU and LSU, Bear Bryant with Kentucky and A&M, etc. Would it change the list any? Don't know, but it definitely feels like a cherry-pick. I wouldn't have thought twice about it if Urbz hadn't been the only one identified with multiple schools.
I think you'd have to put Steve Spurrier in any top ten list. I don't know exactly how his record stacks up against the rest, but he was a damn fine coach.
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He absolutely dominated the SEC for a decade. Got an NC in the process, played for another. And, for me at least, the job he did at SC was also highly impressive. That's the best that program ever had it.
Maybe his perception is hurt by his prime Florida teams frequently losing their final showdowns against the Seminoles. Or only having 1 NC, or....I don't know. @OrangeAfroMan (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=58) would be better suited to comment on that. Spurrier definitely warrants more love than it seems like he gets, but maybe that's my impression of the wider world's opinion, and not reality.
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He absolutely dominated the SEC for a decade. Got an NC in the process, played for another. And, for me at least, the job he did at SC was also highly impressive. That's the best that program ever had it.
Maybe his perception is hurt by his prime Florida teams frequently losing their final showdowns against the Seminoles. Or only having 1 NC, or....I don't know. @OrangeAfroMan (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=58) would be better suited to comment on that. Spurrier definitely warrants more love than it seems like he gets, but maybe that's my impression of the wider world's opinion, and not reality.
Here's the thing about Spurrier that sticks out to me. He brought Florida from a never-has, to a somewhat perennial contender. Does 2007/2008 happen without Spurrier from 1990-2001? I don't think so. He made them relevant, at a time when the SEC was just beginning to ascend to the top of the CFB world. Can you really fault him for losing to FSU/Bowden, when they were at the absolute peak of their domincne as well? If anything, it just shows how good he was, to compete with them.
I liken it to Mack Brown/Texas competing against Stoops. Without Stoops, Texas arguably would have won 2-3 more Big 12 titles, and maybe one more MNC.
Before Spurrier, Florida had never won the SEC. With Florida, they were frequently either champions, or in contention. One NC, is one more than Bo.
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Just as you can respect a program more for winning NCs under several different HCs, I think the reverse should be true of HCs winning at several different programs.
You could look solely at NCs, if you want...I guess.
But then HCs like Bill Snyder and yes, Bo Schembechler are invisible to you. Odd.
Spurrier won at 3 different programs, none of which had any history of winning.
He led Duke to their first ACC championship since 1962 (27 years).
He led Florida to our first ever official SEC championship. Then won 5 more. And finished 1st in the SEC his first year, but we weren't eligible.
He is South Carolina's all-time winningest HC, and it's not close.
He is Florida's all-time winningest HC, and it's even a wider gap.
Despite Meyer's three 13-1 seasons and despite coaching twice as many seasons at Florida as Meyer, Spurrier's win% is higher. That's nuts.
Part of that is while he was the HC (OBC) at Florida for 12 seasons, he lost 12 SEC games. Total. He dragged the SEC into the 21st century, no longer considering 3 runs and a punt as success.
Here's a list of most season wins for South Carolina, all-time:
12, 12, 12, 10, 9, 9, 8, 8, 8, 8,...
Spurrier is all three 12s and a 9.....4 of the top 5, ever.
Yes, he was sub-.500 vs FSU, but Florida at that time had a unique and unprecedented end to its seasons. Top-5 rival, then conf championship game, then as a top-10 team itself, a bowl vs a legit top-10 opponent. No one else had that. Tennessee ended the year with Vandy. Georgia ended it with GT. UM-OSU played each other in the finale, but no CCG. Nebraska didn't have a CCG until they did, and their run ended around that time, coinciding with Dr. Tom's exit.
Anyway, any great HC can be talked up by a fan of his program.
I value consistency. Osborne's million straight years with 9+ wins is insane. Bowden's 14 straight top 5s is nuts. Bo only losing 24 Big Ten games in 21 seasons is nonsense.
And as we all know, pre-playoff, winning the NC was as much luck as anything else. When you lost. When someone else lost. Hell, going undefeated and not getting even a piece ('94 PSU, '04 Aub). So I don't like the idea of Spurrier is amazing and Bo was not, just because Texas upset Nebraska and we got a rematch with FSU.
When a HC is an all-time great AND fun, it's just a special time. Visor-throwing, poking shots at opponents, trying to hang 50 on everyone and often doing it...that's why Gators love Spurrier most. Meyer won 2 NCs, but Spurrier won our first and we all had fun as it happened.
Spurrier could absolutely be on someone's College HC Mt Rushmore....but so could 20 other guys.
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CFB would be better with more guys like Spurrier.
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He absolutely dominated the SEC for a decade. Got an NC in the process, played for another. And, for me at least, the job he did at SC was also highly impressive. That's the best that program ever had it.
Maybe his perception is hurt by his prime Florida teams frequently losing their final showdowns against the Seminoles. Or only having 1 NC, or....I don't know. @OrangeAfroMan (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=58) would be better suited to comment on that. Spurrier definitely warrants more love than it seems like he gets, but maybe that's my impression of the wider world's opinion, and not reality.
Setting aside that he should be ahead of Bo on that list, it seems like he’s brought down by his experience being sort of blended.
The traditional way to get regarded highly was winning a lot of titles, a really, really long run of success or taking an underdog and making them something more.
Spurriers mountain top case is on the light side. His era at Florida was a lot of 90th-percentile teams, but a bit short of others chasing the mountaintop. And the run was long, but not long, long.
And while he lead a couple of lesser programs to unprecedented success, it ultimately was pretty short-lived.
Honestly, the thing that might’ve most benefitted him would’ve been if his title team was just “that” team. But it felt like the backing in and rematch element of it took off some luster.
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The 3-point loss on the road + the 32-point win at a neutral site should mostly take care of that, no?
Fun fact: that amazing play-call that helped Texas upset Nebraska to benefit Florida in the 1996 XIICG was by one-time Bo Schembechler assistant coach John Mackovic.
Spurrier was just human when it came to FSU + bowls.
1991 - beat #3 FSU, upset loss to ND in Sugar
1993 - lose to #1 FSU, beat 16 Bama and beat the shit out of #3 WV in Sugar
1994 - tie #7 FSU, beat #3 Bama, lose to #7 FSU in Sugar
1995 - beat #6 FSU, beat 23 Arky, get destroyed by #1 Nebraska in Fiesta
1996 - lose to #2 FSU, beat 11 Bama, beat the shit out of #1 FSU in Sugar
1997 - beat #2 FSU, beat 11 PSU in Citrus
1998 - lost to #5 FSU, beat 18 Syr in Orange
1999 was the worst - #3 in the country, lost to #1 FSU, lose to #7 Bama, lose to #9 MSU in Citrus
2000 - lost to #3 FSU, beat 18 Aub in SECCG, lose to #2 Miami in Sugar
2001 - beat 21 FSU, lose to #5 Tenn, destroy #6 Maryland in Orange
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Looking at all that....it's just a freakin' ton of games vs top 5 teams, lol. Again, no one else was dealing with that 3-game gamut going that far back. Nowadays, it's an average playoff run. Times have changed.
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Crazy stat of the day:
1990
#9 Florida @ #5 Tennessee
45-3 LOSS
2 weeks later
#4 Auburn @ #15 Florida
48-7 WIN
Talk about a roller-coaster.
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The 3-point loss on the road + the 32-point win at a neutral site should mostly take care of that, no?
Fun fact: that amazing play-call that helped Texas upset Nebraska to benefit Florida in the 1996 XIICG was by one-time Bo Schembechler assistant coach John Mackovic.
I don't totally think it ever did.
Just the tight timeframe, the late loss, needing the 1-2 teams taken out ahead of them, and the fact you're one of only two 1-loss title teams in the decade-plus.
Not that it wasn't a great team, but like, I just think if Spurrier has a team that's 13-0, defense a little tighter, it stands out more as an all-timer and that burnishes his resume more.
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Do you feel the same way about other teams that did that?
89 Miami
85 OU
83 Miami
79 Bama
75 OU is probably the closest comp
No one thinks about that with these NCs. I think time smudges the edges and specifics. 1996 was a long time ago, lol.
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2011 Bama backed in and needed a rematch.
Nobody ever asterisks it or caveats it when adding up Saban's NCs.
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Crazy stat of the day:
1990
#9 Florida @ #5 Tennessee
45-3 LOSS
2 weeks later
#4 Auburn @ #15 Florida
48-7 WIN
Talk about a roller-coaster.
I am guessing the first one was a Florida loss and the 2nd one was a Florida win?
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Do you feel the same way about other teams that did that?
89 Miami
85 OU
83 Miami
79 Bama
75 OU is probably the closest comp
No one thinks about that with these NCs. I think time smudges the edges and specifics. 1996 was a long time ago, lol.
I'm not sure exactly the metrics you were using for that, but outside 79 Bama, which didn't lose, basically yes.
If you told me a coach was very good, and his best team was one of those (outside the undefeated Bama team), I'd tell you that would probably create a bit of ceiling with the perception of that coach. (Shoot, one was the second-best title for a coach with two and we don't keep him in high regard at all).
None of them lifted the winning coach to a hallowed space. And most are known for something else beyond being a team that kicked a ton of ass.
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2011 Bama backed in and needed a rematch.
Nobody ever asterisks it or caveats it when adding up Saban's NCs.
That's true, but alas, the folks who would asterisk and caveat were the ones who set up the rematch (plus people give the NFL angle of that team maybe too much credit).
And if he only had that title, people probably would look at him a bit differently.
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The 3-point loss on the road + the 32-point win at a neutral site should mostly take care of that, no?
Fun fact: that amazing play-call that helped Texas upset Nebraska to benefit Florida in the 1996 XIICG was by one-time Bo Schembechler assistant coach John Mackovic.
fluke
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2011 Bama backed in and needed a rematch.
Nobody ever asterisks it or caveats it when adding up Saban's NCs.
Ehhh, that OK State team lost to Iowa State a month before the final regular season poll. I don't view that as nearly the same thing.
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I'm not sure exactly the metrics you were using for that, but outside 79 Bama, which didn't lose, basically yes.
If you told me a coach was very good, and his best team was one of those (outside the undefeated Bama team), I'd tell you that would probably create a bit of ceiling with the perception of that coach. (Shoot, one was the second-best title for a coach with two and we don't keep him in high regard at all).
None of them lifted the winning coach to a hallowed space. And most are known for something else beyond being a team that kicked a ton of ass.
Ehhh #2........I think '96 Florida's 30 ppg margin of victory comes into play here. You couldn't name 3 other teams in modern college football history who did that.
And I think we're short-changing that 96 Florida and 11 Bama just simply got the chance. Florida still had to beat a team that had beaten it. #1 defense in the country. And hung 52 on them.
2011 LSU was one of the all-time greatest teams, and Bama still had to go out and beat them. They didn't let them cross the 50 until the 2nd half and shut them out.
They had to make the most of a very difficult opportunity.
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Ehhh #2........I think '96 Florida's 30 ppg margin of victory comes into play here. You couldn't name 3 other teams in modern college football history who did that.
And I think we're short-changing that 96 Florida and 11 Bama just simply got the chance. Florida still had to beat a team that had beaten it. #1 defense in the country. And hung 52 on them.
2011 LSU was one of the all-time greatest teams, and Bama still had to go out and beat them. They didn't let them cross the 50 until the 2nd half and shut them out.
They had to make the most of a very difficult opportunity.
I mean, I couldn’t name that Florida did it either, but obviously with 3 minutes, I could name three other team who did. (I think I got 4-5).
And I think that UF team was awesome, but they got dinged a bit historically because of that loss and the era, and it does feel like if Steve had a 13-0 team, he’d be thought of a bit differently.
The Bama-LSU thing … the best thing everyone says about that Bama team is that they smothered a good-not-great offense with mid QB play in that rematch with an insane number of NFL guys. Bama was a team we knew was very good but not very accomplished before getting the rematch that beat a team that was probably more accomplished than it was good.
And if that was the top of the Saban era, he’d be looked at in a certain way (although there had not been a previous title, they might not have gotten a rematch)
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I appreciate the point of view of someone who wasn't 'in it' (Living in Gainesville at the time).
2011 is a perfect example of one game negating season-long dominance. Whether because it's their last game or on the biggest stage or whatever, that egg-laying in the NCG left everyone thinking they were trash.
No.
Through the first 13 games, that was an all-time great(est) team. And their QBs weren't that bad at all. Statistically, they were perfectly good, with ~150 rating. Low INTs. Now watching them, sure, functionally they were limited, but they didn't have a shitty passing game. They simply didn't need to pass. They had like 4 legit RBs and a great defense. They played Saban ball (pre-Tua Saban ball, anyway). Low-risk, grind them down and out-talent opponents-type of football.
They had 2 bookend DEs with a lot of sacks. 2 First-Team AAs in the secondary. Caused all the turnovers. Great special teams. Why pass a bunch? It took overtime and they couldn't get a TD, but they did win on the road vs Bama. They played 8 ranked teams before the NCG and went 8-0.
They get outcoached in the NCG and suddenly they're garbage? No.
I'm not saying you're saying that, but I think it's what most people think now.
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I appreciate the point of view of someone who wasn't 'in it' (Living in Gainesville at the time).
2011 is a perfect example of one game negating season-long dominance. Whether because it's their last game or on the biggest stage or whatever, that egg-laying in the NCG left everyone thinking they were trash.
No.
Through the first 13 games, that was an all-time great(est) team. And their QBs weren't that bad at all. Statistically, they were perfectly good, with ~150 rating. Low INTs. Now watching them, sure, functionally they were limited, but they didn't have a shitty passing game. They simply didn't need to pass. They had like 4 legit RBs and a great defense. They played Saban ball (pre-Tua Saban ball, anyway). Low-risk, grind them down and out-talent opponents-type of football.
They had 2 bookend DEs with a lot of sacks. 2 First-Team AAs in the secondary. Caused all the turnovers. Great special teams. Why pass a bunch? It took overtime and they couldn't get a TD, but they did win on the road vs Bama. They played 8 ranked teams before the NCG and went 8-0.
They get outcoached in the NCG and suddenly they're garbage? No.
I'm not saying you're saying that, but I think it's what most people think now.
That LSU team is such an interesting case study.
They were super accomplished, beating a ton of very good teams (even if the 8 ranked teams thing is a bit hollow). Their defense was murder. Their offense was … quite good, not unreal. Held under 4 yards per carry almost half the time, under 5.7 yards per play more than half the time.
And that would’ve been fine, if not for facing maybe the most talented defense of all time. I rather hoped LSU could’ve locked down that amazing accomplishment of a season. But they didn’t.
It’s too bad, but the sport doesn’t always deliver the best story (and of course that game and mulligan choice was the first playoff breaking point)
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The 2011 Alabama defense had, based on era/context, the best pass defense ever. So yeah, a 'perfectly fine' pass offense is going to look like hot garbage against them, lol.
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Just as you can respect a program more for winning NCs under several different HCs, I think the reverse should be true of HCs winning at several different programs.
You could look solely at NCs, if you want...I guess.
But then HCs like Bill Snyder and yes, Bo Schembechler are invisible to you. Odd.
Spurrier won at 3 different programs, none of which had any history of winning.
He led Duke to their first ACC championship since 1962 (27 years).
He led Florida to our first ever official SEC championship. Then won 5 more. And finished 1st in the SEC his first year, but we weren't eligible.
He is South Carolina's all-time winningest HC, and it's not close.
He is Florida's all-time winningest HC, and it's even a wider gap.
Despite Meyer's three 13-1 seasons and despite coaching twice as many seasons at Florida as Meyer, Spurrier's win% is higher. That's nuts.
Part of that is while he was the HC (OBC) at Florida for 12 seasons, he lost 12 SEC games. Total. He dragged the SEC into the 21st century, no longer considering 3 runs and a punt as success.
Here's a list of most season wins for South Carolina, all-time:
12, 12, 12, 10, 9, 9, 8, 8, 8, 8,...
Spurrier is all three 12s and a 9.....4 of the top 5, ever.
Yes, he was sub-.500 vs FSU, but Florida at that time had a unique and unprecedented end to its seasons. Top-5 rival, then conf championship game, then as a top-10 team itself, a bowl vs a legit top-10 opponent. No one else had that. Tennessee ended the year with Vandy. Georgia ended it with GT. UM-OSU played each other in the finale, but no CCG. Nebraska didn't have a CCG until they did, and their run ended around that time, coinciding with Dr. Tom's exit.
Anyway, any great HC can be talked up by a fan of his program.
I value consistency. Osborne's million straight years with 9+ wins is insane. Bowden's 14 straight top 5s is nuts. Bo only losing 24 Big Ten games in 21 seasons is nonsense.
And as we all know, pre-playoff, winning the NC was as much luck as anything else. When you lost. When someone else lost. Hell, going undefeated and not getting even a piece ('94 PSU, '04 Aub). So I don't like the idea of Spurrier is amazing and Bo was not, just because Texas upset Nebraska and we got a rematch with FSU.
When a HC is an all-time great AND fun, it's just a special time. Visor-throwing, poking shots at opponents, trying to hang 50 on everyone and often doing it...that's why Gators love Spurrier most. Meyer won 2 NCs, but Spurrier won our first and we all had fun as it happened.
Spurrier could absolutely be on someone's College HC Mt Rushmore....but so could 20 other guys.
I'm not certain if you're directing that comment I bolded up above at me or not. But I very much respect Bill Snyder, by all accounts he did very, very well at KSU. And I do think it's unfair to not include him just because he never won a MNC, but on that list of great coaches the only other one who never won a MNC was Bo Schembechler. And it's always a knock on him as well.
I honestly don't really know much about Bo, he was done coaching long before I took an interest, and I still don't pay that much attention to the B1G or many of the coaches in general. Michigan always gets an outsized amount of coverage, and so does Ohio State, but I don't really know much about their programs from before the late 90's.
So if you wanted my Top Ten, I'd probably include Bill Snyder, as well as Stoops, Bowden, Spurrier, Saban, Miles, Mack Brown. Not sure who the other few coaches would be, I haven't given it a lot of thought. Notice how my list only includes coach from the last ~30 years? It's because that's as far as my CFB fandom goes. Anything before that is ancient history.
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Not directed at anyone, just making the point that all situations are very different and ranking HCs by number of NCs is about as nuanced as ranking NFL QBs simply by number of SBs.
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Bill Snyder taking Kansas State, one of the ends-blown-out tomato cans that Nebraska and OU feasted on in the historical Big 8, to the fringe of a MNC, and then keeping them there for a while, is worth being in the discussion of Rushmore.
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agreed
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That LSU team is such an interesting case study.
They were super accomplished, beating a ton of very good teams (even if the 8 ranked teams thing is a bit hollow). Their defense was murder. Their offense was … quite good, not unreal. Held under 4 yards per carry almost half the time, under 5.7 yards per play more than half the time.
And that would’ve been fine, if not for facing maybe the most talented defense of all time. I rather hoped LSU could’ve locked down that amazing accomplishment of a season. But they didn’t.
It’s too bad, but the sport doesn’t always deliver the best story (and of course that game and mulligan choice was the first playoff breaking point)
That LSU offense was "efficient,".....good at what they did (running the ball), but extraordinarily limited. I don't know what 'fro is on about....those QBs were both awful, in quantifiable numbers and in QB skillset. You can't watch either of them that year and honestly say "that's a game manager." No, with a "game manager" they'd have won the NC. He's right that they didn't need to throw the ball much, but that doesn't change the fact that they were crap at reading coverages and pulling the trigger when they did need to.
I'll go to my grave haunted by the memory of TEs streaking uncovered down the sideline and wide open crossing routes, and a QB who was so bad he instead shovel-passed the ball directly to a guy wearing the other color.
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The 2011 Alabama defense had, based on era/context, the best pass defense ever. So yeah, a 'perfectly fine' pass offense is going to look like hot garbage against them, lol.
Eh....I'll take LSU's 2011 crew, call it homer if you want. They played the scheme they were given, which would be like trying to compare Richard Sherman to Patrick Peterson (pro, not college). Asked to do very different things, often with different results, but they were both brutally good at what they did. I'm not downplaying Alabama's pass defense that year. But I don't think they had the combined talent that LSU had, and they also achieved better metrics like efficiency rating against a much lesser schedule than LSU played.
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Bill Snyder taking Kansas State, one of the ends-blown-out tomato cans that Nebraska and OU feasted on in the historical Big 8, to the fringe of a MNC, and then keeping them there for a while, is worth being in the discussion of Rushmore.
This is always an odd one.
We’re talking about a guy who took a 10th percentile power team to consistent 80th percentile, and sometimes 90th+. Thats awesome.
For better or worse, guys who can take a team from 80th or 90th to 100th get the top-end hype. And it’s just kind of different skillsets. Like, it’s all coaching, but what Snyder did was so underdog, it doesn’t really apply to what Saban did (and as we saw, the load up on talent at a mid-tier program thing was far from dominant for Nick).
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That LSU offense was "efficient,".....good at what they did (running the ball), but extraordinarily limited. I don't know what 'fro is on about....those QBs were both awful, in quantifiable numbers and in QB skillset. You can't watch either of them that year and honestly say "that's a game manager." No, with a "game manager" they'd have won the NC. He's right that they didn't need to throw the ball much, but that doesn't change the fact that they were crap at reading coverages and pulling the trigger when they did need to.
I'll go to my grave haunted by the memory of TEs streaking uncovered down the sideline and wide open crossing routes, and a QB who was so bad he instead shovel-passed the ball directly to a guy wearing the other color.
Lee seemed like a game manger? Not an amazing one, but one. Jefferson less so.
I don’t know that I’d call them efficient (though the usual number I used for that doesn’t go back that far, so maybe). They were a kind of pretty effective with a limited profile, but that was going to his an issue against a really top defense if their defense also wasn’t lockdown. And that day it wasn’t.
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Lee seemed like a game manger? Not an amazing one, but one. Jefferson less so.
I don’t know that I’d call them efficient (though the usual number I used for that doesn’t go back that far, so maybe). They were a kind of pretty effective with a limited profile, but that was going to his an issue against a really top defense if their defense also wasn’t lockdown. And that day it wasn’t.
He was a game manager when afforded a giant cushion and there was no pressure whatsoever in the pocket. His OL often afforded him that. When they couldn't, he didn't just sink to the levels any decent QB sinks to when they have no protection. That equates to merely failing to help your team. Lee became an active liability. His yips were amongst the worst I've ever seen, throughout his entire career. He got benched in the first Alabama game because of it.
So, you could think of him more as a boom or bust, but in his case, it was more like OK or bust. Against a team like Alabama, he became appreciably worse than most other QBs would've been. A regular QB would fail to produce. Lee cost the team.
Jefferson wasn't any different, other than that his usable skillset when everything was to his advantage was different. He was actually pretty good at running the read-option. Which is where he did his damage against Alabama in the first game, off the bench (what little damage he actually managed to do). Take away the read-option, which Alabama did in the rematch, and he had nothing....not "perfectly fine," not a "game manager," not "okay"......he was trash, with yips nearly as bad as Lee. If there was a moment that was uniquely indicative of their play, something that encapsulated their problems, nothing was more singular than his literal shovel pass to a defensive lineman in the NC. That was nothing more than an ongoing major case of the yips, but it wasn't unique to that game. It was always there, LSU's OL just made sure most teams couldn't make it a factor. He was so scared of getting hit, not knowing what to do, inability to think in the moment under duress....all the above....that he just gave the ball away to someone, anyone.....even if his brain only later realized the guy was wearing the other uniform.
Danny Etling was the QB people want to think Lee/Jefferson were. Etling certainly wasn't great, but he fits the profile of a game manager, "fine" or however you want to describe it, and he probably would've seen the receivers galloping to potential greatness and been able to hit at least 1 or 2 of those.
That said, LSU had other head-scratchers in that game. But I maintain most, if not all, of that would've been mitigated by a QB who didn't piss his pants when a team actually had a shot of hitting him. I know it felt in real time like Alabama absolutely smothered everything about LSU, but I've forced myself to rewatch that game a few times, with the coaches film that used to be available on YT. The truth is that LSU called a number of plays that looked good and had a shot, but Jefferson played one of the worst games I've ever seen.
I hate what that game did to the perception of the two teams, but it is what it is. I'll always believe the first game was more indicative of the two. Not inasmuch as LSU won it, but in that it was close. Most people retroactively think Bama was far superior all along and the NC proved it. I think there's a lot of evidence to suggest that the normal outcome between the two teams would've been close, whoever won it, and the NC was a poor outlier for LSU. But as I said, they had several head-scratchers in that game, and the perception isn't likely to change at this point.
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Bill Snyder taking Kansas State, one of the ends-blown-out tomato cans that Nebraska and OU feasted on in the historical Big 8, to the fringe of a MNC, and then keeping them there for a while, is worth being in the discussion of Rushmore.
agreed
I agree as well and your point about KSU's dreadful record without Bill Snyder is the key issue for me.
Bo's lack of an NC at Michigan is different because Michigan won NCs both before and after Bo's tenure so I see it as a very legitimate criticism of him because although his accomplishments within the league are amazing he never took Michigan to the heights that multiple other coaches did. Snyder's case is very different because he took KSU far higher than they ever got before or since.
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Bo:
Win 9-10 (in the Big 2 Little 8)
Lose 1-2
Lose Bowl
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that was Doc Osborne until he broke through in the mid-90s
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Bo:
Win 9-10 (in the Big 2 Little 8)
Lose 1-2
Lose Bowl
that was Doc Osborne until he broke through in the mid-90s
But Doc Tom DID break through. If not for that run in the mid-90s he'd still be a great coach but Mt Rushmore, I think not.
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the truth
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LSU's defensive backs could have been more talented, but I don't care about that. I care what they DO. They were ballhawks, and great.
But Bama allowed 4.3 yds per pass attempt. In 2011. That's obscene. Allowed under 50% completions. All-time best.
As for the QBs, Jarrett Lee had a 62% comp rate, with 14 TDs and 3 INTs. 152 rating. That's perfectly fine. Not a problem. But I agree that he wasn't as good as those stats, but that's what happened on the field. Jefferson had potential, but wasn't as good. Miles not starting (much less playing) Lee was one of the worst calls ever, in the moment (not after the fact). Saban must've been so happy, not having to face a functional QB. They focused on stopping LSU's run (which they did) because Jefferson posed ZERO passing threat.
You know how I'm critical of Staubach's standing as an all-time great and how people rate VY over Tebow because both of their best attribute is scrambling?? Les Miles chose his QB for the NCG based on being a good scrambler.
Fucking asinine.
You're facing the best pass defense maybe ever...you need the best passer you have. Period.
I totally agree how that one game wrecked the general opinion of that team. They were all-time great. No one outcome should change that. Especially how their defense hung in there with ZERO NEGATIVE "help" from the offense.
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"Sisters of the Poor" Program HC Mt Rushmore:
Bill Snyder, Barry Alvarez, Curt Cignetti*, Mark Mangino
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*wayyyyyyy different than the others, but it still happened
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Hayden Fry.
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LSU's defensive backs could have been more talented, but I don't care about that. I care what they DO. They were ballhawks, and great.
But Bama allowed 4.3 yds per pass attempt. In 2011. That's obscene. Allowed under 50% completions. All-time best.
As for the QBs, Jarrett Lee had a 62% comp rate, with 14 TDs and 3 INTs. 152 rating. That's perfectly fine. Not a problem. But I agree that he wasn't as good as those stats, but that's what happened on the field. Jefferson had potential, but wasn't as good. Miles not starting (much less playing) Lee was one of the worst calls ever, in the moment (not after the fact). Saban must've been so happy, not having to face a functional QB. They focused on stopping LSU's run (which they did) because Jefferson posed ZERO passing threat.
You know how I'm critical of Staubach's standing as an all-time great and how people rate VY over Tebow because both of their best attribute is scrambling?? Les Miles chose his QB for the NCG based on being a good scrambler.
Fucking asinine.
You're facing the best pass defense maybe ever...you need the best passer you have. Period.
I don't expect to convince you, but I'll try to explain my disagreement.
On the pass defense, I don't begrudge anyone who favors Bama. The numbers are what they are, and that Bama secondary had a lot of NFL talent (I know NFL career technically has no bearing on discussions like these, but I do think those data points are retroactively useful as additional context, although not a be-all, end-all). When I look at the players directly, here's my thinking. 1) They played a much lesser schedule than LSU did. They simply weren't defending across the season what LSU dealt with. LSU's team was not only all-time, it was an all-time schedule. 2) Pass defense is as much a function of pass rush as the skill of the secondary. Bama had a clear edge there. I'd call the lines a wash, they were both great. I'm tempted to give LSU the edge, but I can't argue that Bama's DL was insane. But Bama crushed LSU in the LB unit. I wouldn't call LSU's LB corp that year weak, but they were far and away the weakest link of that defense, and nowhere near as good as Bama's crew. Bama was able to harass QBs with their LBs and thus help their secondary in a way that LSU was not. LSU's DBs had more on their plates than Alabama's did, both in terms of quality of team faced and in help received from the front 7, and I don't think that's debatable. Whether or not it offsets the differences in raw numbers will be a subjective thing, and again, I don't fault anyone for siding with the insane numbers. 3) Raw skill does matter to me. Bama's guys had it in spades. LSU just had it more. And more of it. There was virtually no drop-off from the starting CBs to the two main backups, which I've never seen elsewhere. We talk a lot about "yeah, we're 4, 5, 6 deep blah blah...." That usually means the backups are still good, but it almost never means there's actually no difference. The starting safeties actually were better than the primary backups (as per usual), but the rotation was still good, and, for various reasons, the starting safeties didn't have to come out of the game much. And then there's the NFL side of the respective two-deeps, which again I concede is of limited use in a college discussion, but it lends more support after the fact that my impression of the two teams was correct. There's some extrapolating going on there, because two of LSU's guys from that unit were plagued by and/or had their careers quickly ended by injuries, so I'm only able to look at what they did when healthy in a shorter time frame for a couple of them. If I look at a team and realize they're hurt when, for example, Dre Kirkpatrick goes out of the game, and I look at another team and realize it doesn't matter if Morris Claiborne leaves the game or not, that means something. LSU's raw numbers were also hurt by the WVU game, but that's a whole other thing. Chavis had a particular plan for that game and later said he probably would do things differently. I thought it was brilliant. It did allow a ton of passing yards, but it succeeded in making those yards pointless and fruitless. They never used that scheme in any other games. And, most unfortunately, Claiborne allowed a LONG td when he slipped and fell. Oh well. I don't know how much the raw numbers change based on that game, but it definitely hurts LSU in that category, yet nothing about it suggests to me they were a lesser unit than Bama had.
Re: the QBs, most of the dissident LSU fans agree with you. They'll always think Lee should've played in the NC. Neither opinion can prove a counter-factual, but we do have evidence in this case, since the teams played twice. Jefferson had horrible, awful yips. Lee's were worse. We saw what Lee looked like against Alabama in round 1. As bad as Jefferson was--and he was terrible--Lee was worse. It's why Lee finally got benched in the regular season game. Jefferson was still trash, but he quit hurting us as much as Lee (and he did manage a couple of nice read-options that ultimately made the difference). Do you try something--anything--different, when you're struggling? Sure, ok, fair enough. Do I think Lee would've done ANYTHING positive against Alabama? No, because he was god-awful the first time around. He achieved "perfectly fine" when the rest of the team took everything off his plate, as I said. The minute the pocket got tricky and things sped up, he was a liability every bit of the caliber of Jefferson, if not more. The much more glaring issue imo (and many others) is not playing T-Bob Hebert at center in the NC. He was the backup to starter PJ Lonergan who was injured for the regular season Bama game, and Hebert acquitted himself rather well. Though he was supposed to be the "lesser" of the two players, it has to be noted Lonergan got his ass whipped the entire NC game by Bama's NT. Why not go back to the guy who played that DT to a decent stalemate in the first contest? Even if he's the backup. To the exact opposite of Jarrett Lee's case, Hebert had a history of doing better against Alabama. It famously lead to his dad, former QB Bobby Hebert chewing Les' ass from the audience at the post-game presser. And why abandon the toss dive, your bread and butter, just because Alabama is good? They ran it twice, and it went for 5 yards a pop. So you don't do it again, because.....they know you're gonna do it? And why couldn't Chavis adjust to the simple smash-left zone concept Bama ran over and over and over? They weren't abusing our line, Chavis just wouldn't change his alignment to deal with it. The other thing that was off about that game was Mathieu's inability to cover a simple out-route, something he generally did very well through his long career. That's not a coaching call, I'm only adding that here to note the overall oddness of the rematch. I guess everybody has bad games, that was definitely one for him. Alabama put together some drives and kicked several field goals because LSU couldn't stop the same two plays over and over. Weird.
Anyway, like I said, I'm sure none of that is convincing to you at all. Just the way I see things, and why.
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(https://i.imgur.com/Ht5b4IR.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/vLG1wgu.png)
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(https://i.imgur.com/Ht5b4IR.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/vLG1wgu.png)
I think you've posted that before and it is a downright astounding coaching tree.
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great list but, no mount rushmores
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(https://i.imgur.com/Ht5b4IR.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/vLG1wgu.png)
With the Browns, Bellichick had both Saban and Ferentz on his staff '90-'95.
Earle Bruce at one time or another had on his staff
Nick Saban
Glenn Mason
Urban Meyer
Jim Tressel
Mark Dantonio
Pete Carroll
Dom Capers
Dayum 4 guys who went on to win MNCs
think Capers won a SB as a DC
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@MikeDeTiger (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1588) I appreciate the post.
LSU's schedule difference was merely playing Oregon OOC. Plus the SECCG, obviously. The rest was the same. Same SEC west opponents, same lower-ranked OOC (WV vs PSU), same East opponent difficulty.
On pass rush being connected to pass D, sure it is. LSU had 39 sacks to Bama's 30. So the stats sort of go against your point there.
2011 LSU was an all-time great team, and its defense was its strength, especially the DBs. But Bama's outcomes were better, imo. You're sitting here citing individual plays. Look at the meta data. LSU opponents ran almost 900 plays.
But again, thank you for taking the time.
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One curiosity I've always had about those Les Miles LSU teams was their toss HB dive play. I've never seen anyone else run it, and they used it a ton.
Whether it was off-tackle or inside, running a toss inside run play was very unique.
I wonder why they did it and no one else did.
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Les was more than a wee bit weird
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One curiosity I've always had about those Les Miles LSU teams was their toss HB dive play. I've never seen anyone else run it, and they used it a ton.
Whether it was off-tackle or inside, running a toss inside run play was very unique.
I wonder why they did it and no one else did.
That was a variation of a play that Michigan ran under Bo for a long time.
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One curiosity I've always had about those Les Miles LSU teams was their toss HB dive play. I've never seen anyone else run it, and they used it a ton.
Whether it was off-tackle or inside, running a toss inside run play was very unique.
I wonder why they did it and no one else did.
We were one of the few teams who still spent a scholly on a dedicated fullback in those days.
That team was an homage to Bo Schembechler in so many ways. There used to be audio floating around of one of Les' pregame speeches that year paired with old audio of a Bo pregame speech from back when Les was still with him, and the tone, the style, and the content was extremely similar. Whether Les did that on purpose or whether it was just ingrained in him at that point and that's how he sounded without realizing it, it was uncanny.
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We were one of the few teams who still spent a scholly on a dedicated fullback in those days.
That team was an homage to Bo Schembechler in so many ways. There used to be audio floating around of one of Les' pregame speeches that year paired with old audio of a Bo pregame speech from back when Les was still with him, and the tone, the style, and the content was extremely similar. Whether Les did that on purpose or whether it was just ingrained in him at that point and that's how he sounded without realizing it, it was uncanny.
This. He played for Bo and then coached under him (and later Lloyd Carr). In between Michigan stints, he coached at Colorado under Bill McCartney - who also coached under Bo at Michigan for 8 years.
So, yes.
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@MikeDeTiger (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1588) I appreciate the post.
LSU's schedule difference was merely playing Oregon OOC. Plus the SECCG, obviously. The rest was the same. Same SEC west opponents, same lower-ranked OOC (WV vs PSU), same East opponent difficulty.
On pass rush being connected to pass D, sure it is. LSU had 39 sacks to Bama's 30. So the stats sort of go against your point there.
2011 LSU was an all-time great team, and its defense was its strength, especially the DBs. But Bama's outcomes were better, imo. You're sitting here citing individual plays. Look at the meta data. LSU opponents ran almost 900 plays.
But again, thank you for taking the time.
I think Oregon and UGA is a big deal, and I also thought WVU was a much more high-powered offense than PSU, but I might not be remembering that correctly.
That said, I don't think it can account for all the difference in stats. Which is crazy for Alabama, because LSU's stats for pass D were really, really good.
Rather than thinking about it in terms of individual plays, I actually think of it in terms of scheme and assignment. And to some degree, ethos. What I mean is, conceptually, what were those teams about? I always thought of that Bama defense as a rocky cliff on which ships (other teams) dashed themselves and were destroyed. They were a boa constrictor. They sought to give nothing on every play, and they were brutally good at it. On a per-play basis, they were unparalleled. LSU was a flaming buzzsaw from a video game, flying around like a rabid bat. If you could stay away from it, you could get yards. You probably couldn't get points because eventually the buzzsaw got you. On a per-drive basis, they were also brutally good at eventually finding the havok play.
Both their schemes seemed very intentional that way. They did what they were asked to do, mostly. Interestingly, I'd describe Saban's defenses at LSU more similar to what Chavis was doing that year than what Saban's typical Bama defenses were. That might have something to do with his switch to a lot of 3-4 personnel at Bama, I don't know. He had LBs at Bama that he could never have dreamed of at LSU.
So I admit I'm more inclined to look past the numbers, using them mainly as a guide, a starting reference, but being more inclined to the idea of 1) what was the assignment, 2) how good were they at pulling it off? And, even there, I still don't fault anybody for choosing the Bama secondary. They were ridiculously effective.
Also feel compelled to add at this point......sigh.....how much more fun was LSU football back in those days? For me, almost infinitely. The players actually wanted to be there for something other than a paycheck. Imagine that.
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One curiosity I've always had about those Les Miles LSU teams was their toss HB dive play. I've never seen anyone else run it, and they used it a ton.
Whether it was off-tackle or inside, running a toss inside run play was very unique.
I wonder why they did it and no one else did.
I always was interested in how they had the QB try to wall off the backside.
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Frank Beamer did a helluva job at VT.