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Topic: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.

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longhorn320

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #2716 on: September 15, 2021, 09:35:42 PM »
Texas has more people and way more guns.  I like our chances.

"725,368 guns are registered in Texas, the most of any state and 67% more registered guns than second-place Florida."
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CWSooner

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #2717 on: September 15, 2021, 09:40:29 PM »
Here's one thing I do know, not exactly first-hand, I guess this would be second-hand.  Since it's inappropriate to treat yourself and close family, the doc I work for is the doctor to some other doctors in the area, and one of them is also her doctor.  We have some dealings with him because of this.  Speaking with us at our office recently, he had tested his antibodies 8 months after vax'ing because he has some co-morbidities, so he needs to avoid covid if possible, and because he was getting the same info.  His test showed no antibodies.  Similar to not having vaccinated, in other words.  This would be the one and only person I have any non-theoretical knowledge of, but it fits with what Doc and the missus tell me.  It's not going to be hard and fast.  8 months is an average. 

I wouldn't let this sway people from vaccinating.  The vaccines are very effective at stopping serious cases.  I believe they are overall a good idea, by far.  I'm only pointing out right now it seems there's a time-stamp on that effectiveness.
This just out.  People with autoimmune disorders are at a much higher risk of dying once infected because their bodies attack the antibodies that should attacking the vaccine.

My wife has lupus.  That greatly limits the exposure I'm willing to risk, because I don't want to contract it and bring it home without even knowing I've got it.
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CWSooner

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #2718 on: September 15, 2021, 09:48:41 PM »
Public health isn't an exception to our rights. Unless we're declaring ourselves as completely independent hermits, we're deriving benefit from living together. I'm deliberately not arguing law, but rather ethics and morality. I'll provide citations if requested or as necessary, but I don't want anyone to think I'm just espousing stuff I thought up. I'm not that clever. These are foundational ideas.

America is founded on our spirit of rugged individualism. I respect that. However, we're not mountain trappers or nomads. Those guys didn't live that long, and what life they lived were filled with suffering and hardship. By living together, we can specialize and expand. Living socially provides orders of magnitude greater improvements of life quality.

In living socially, we limit our individualism to achieve that improvement. We agree to rules discouraging behaviors that damage the group. Driving 70 through town would get us all to our destination faster, but some of us will die. I'd like to throw dance parties in my backyard until 2am, but the neighbors have other thoughts. The phrase "your rights end at the tip of my nose" sums up a lot.

I presented a list of vaccinations I'd received before attending any school in my life. Not doing so would have subjected everyone else at school to life altering diseases. My employer is morally obligated to protect my fellow employees, our customers, and all our respective families.

Between the science behind the vaccine being solidly understood, and the extreme threat to public health, mandating vaccines is on solid ground.
Excellent mini-essay, TAFKAD.

I'll talk law.  In Jacobson v. Massachusetts (1905), the SCOTUS ruled that refusal to be vaccinated (it was for smallpox, IIRC) is not protected by the Constitution.

“Real liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own, whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others.”
— Justice John Marshall Harlan, in Jacobson v. Massachusetts (7-2 opinion that vaccine mandates were constitutional)

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utee94

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #2719 on: September 15, 2021, 11:59:22 PM »
Im proud to say Im one


I'm not.

Not registered that is.

I do own guns.  Actually, lots of guns.

847badgerfan

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #2720 on: September 16, 2021, 08:53:20 AM »
I'm not.

Not registered that is.

I do own guns.  Actually, lots of guns.

Same. And I've got a bigger Navy. 960K boats. Texas only has 580K. Gotta move people around somehow.
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847badgerfan

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #2721 on: September 16, 2021, 08:53:54 AM »
This just out.  People with autoimmune disorders are at a much higher risk of dying once infected because their bodies attack the antibodies that should attacking the vaccine.

My wife has lupus.  That greatly limits the exposure I'm willing to risk, because I don't want to contract it and bring it home without even knowing I've got it.
Did you end up retiring to reduce risk? I know you were at least considering that move.
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847badgerfan

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #2722 on: September 16, 2021, 08:55:20 AM »
The spread is currently Florida  -17
Wisconsin gonna declare war on Texas too.

Badgers -?
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MikeDeTiger

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #2723 on: September 16, 2021, 09:09:30 AM »
Oh, ok, I thought it was a battle by proxy of governors.  DeSantis is a little chubby, but Abbott is....well, you know, he's in a wheelchair. 

If we can use the whole roster, then I think the oil and gas industry alone makes Texas a 2 TD favorite. 

utee94

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #2724 on: September 16, 2021, 09:38:50 AM »
This discussion is now getting weird.


847badgerfan

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #2725 on: September 16, 2021, 09:39:52 AM »
Just like old times brother.
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MikeDeTiger

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #2726 on: September 16, 2021, 10:13:15 AM »
Excellent mini-essay, TAFKAD.

I'll talk law.  In Jacobson v. Massachusetts (1905), the SCOTUS ruled that refusal to be vaccinated (it was for smallpox, IIRC) is not protected by the Constitution.

“Real liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own, whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others.”
— Justice John Marshall Harlan, in Jacobson v. Massachusetts (7-2 opinion that vaccine mandates were constitutional)

He said "mandating vaccines is on solid ground."

I go back to my previous point, this stuff y'all are bringing up and COVID-19 are not comparable, and I would rather the law not treat them as such.  Smallpox, measles, mumps, etc.....these things are matters of life and death.  I guess this sounds odd coming from a pro-vax guy, but I can't consider anything with a 99.5% survival rate anywhere in the same category, and I don't want the government having precedent to say "This could affect a few lives here and there.  We now have the right to force you to do whatever we say."  I'm assuming as a historian you can cite several instances where that kind of thing doesn't go well.

And WHY would you want to mandate something against somebody's will if the vaccines work?  You and Tulip don't want to die from it?  Get vaccinated.  If you're vax'd and I'm not, I'm no threat to you if the vaccines work.  And they do.  What reason do you have for taking away one's personal choice in that case?  Everyone who is afraid they'll fall outside that 99.5% range or who just doesn't want to deal with a worse case than necessary can vaccinate themselves.  There's no justification I see for that to allow those people (and I am one) to tell the others "we will force you to comply."  We seem to be laboring under the assumption that if everybody vaccinates then covid will somehow "end."  I don't know that there's any estimates that could potentially be the case.  Our world has changed, this thing likely isn't going away.  And even if it could "end," I have moral reservations about forcing compliance in this case.  Point me to the place in history where stripping liberties in the face of crisis helped that society in the long term.  I can point to a lot of the opposite.  

The ridiculousness of this is illustrated in the flu, which has been with us a long time.  An average of 35k - 60k people die from the flu each year in the U.S.  Something like (I think) an average of 60% of the population gets the flu vaccine each year.  So for years the flu has been annually infecting some 40 million U.S. citizens, hospitalizing some 500k of those, and killing, let's say, 50k.  Every year.  For like, forever.  Who ever heard of mandating flu vaccines nation-wide?  Locally?  Corporately?  I haven't.  Nobody is scared of the flu because we've dealt with it forever.  The key phrase is "dealt with it."  The fact is COVID is new and so it scares people.  It drives erratic behavior and there are no shortage of people seeking to take advantage of this.  I'm not biting.  NOT mandating flu vaccines is better comparison and more recent precedent to consider than the diseases and vaccines you and Mr. Tulip point to.  

I say all this as a pro-vax guy, and one who just lost my aunt to covid.  She almost certainly would be here today had she been vaccinated.  Her and my uncle were like a second set of parents to me during my teenage years, and next month I'll go to her memorial service.  I wish more than just about anything she had chosen the vax.  I wish my mom would.  I wish my grandma would.  My aunt's death has hit them pretty hard and I've very gently tried to tell them that our family would rather not go through this with them, and would they like to reconsider getting vaccinated in light of all this?  But the answer is they don't want to.  And despite my personal feelings on the matter, I still make a hard distinction between what people want for themselves and how I want to force them to do what I want them to do.  One is hard, but morally acceptable.  One is a solution that makes me happier and makes me feel better, but is not morally acceptable.  



Unrelated note:  you mentioned your wife, that reminds me:  some other people who should really check with their doctor before being vaccinated are people on immuno-suppressant meds.  I think in general it's a good idea to check with your doctor first.  People almost certainly fall into the category of folks for whom the vaccine is fine.  There are a small group of people out there who don't need to do it simply because the gub'ment, the scorn of pop culture, and message-board warriors like me said so.  


FearlessF

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #2727 on: September 16, 2021, 10:21:25 AM »
Kudos to the B12 message board on a great discussion, by the way.


There's zero chance a similar conversation on the Coronavirus thread on the B1G board would have made it even half this long, without me having to nuke about half the posts from orbit.

B12 board >>>> B1G board


Yeah, I said it.
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Gigem

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #2728 on: September 16, 2021, 12:06:18 PM »
I'm not.

Not registered that is.

I do own guns.  Actually, lots of guns.
What kinds of shooting do you do Marcus?  I didn't take you for a hunter.  Most of mine are hunting related, deer rifles, shot guns, some .22LR's.  No AR's.  

utee94

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #2729 on: September 16, 2021, 12:52:20 PM »
What kinds of shooting do you do Marcus?  I didn't take you for a hunter.  Most of mine are hunting related, deer rifles, shot guns, some .22LR's.  No AR's. 
I really only hunt dove and quail.

But I like target shooting in ranges, and shooting targets or trap out on friends' ranches.

Almost all of mine are inherited from my grandfather, and one given to me by my dad, and one given to me by my FIL.  Several wheel-gun pistols, 38s.  My grandfather's 1911 from his Army service at Fort Hood.  Two 12G shotguns, a couple of 410s, one funky shotgun/rifle over/under combo, a couple of deer rifles, one Russian sniper rifle which is my fave.    A couple of .22LRs as well.

No ARs for me either. 

« Last Edit: September 16, 2021, 01:04:27 PM by utee94 »

 

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